The assumption that all women want to have children really bothers me.

[lightningandsnow]

I know this might possibly change when I get older, but I'm pretty sure I never want biological children.

I might want to adopt at some point, probably when I've experienced enough of my own life to know I'm ready to do it. Possibly in my late 30's or early 40's. But the idea of having biological children, of giving birth, just really does not appeal to me. This is not to say that there's anything wrong with wanting biological children - I just don't.

And I'm really sick of people definitively telling me I will change my mind as I get older.

Also, I think it's a sexist assumption. Nobody assumes all men want to be fathers.

[hedgehog]

1. Good for you! Every child has the right to be wanted. Nothing is sadder than seeing

the situation that develops once all the hoopla is over and parents are stuck with a kid they had only because it was what was expected of them!

[Autumn Colors]

2. I'm 47, childless by choice, and glad

Not everyone changes their mind when they get older.

Really funny thing is that the only people who would always give me that, "Oh, you'll change your mind later on" nonsense were people who didn't know me very well. I never got that from my family AT ALL ... because they knew me. I have a sister-in-law who did that when we first met, but stopped it pretty quickly.

I agree that it's only women who get told this so much.

[comrade snarky]

64. I think it was Tallulah Bankhead

Who said "I'm not childless less darling, I'm child free"

I'm male and what I get is the assumption that it's a token selfishness that will transform to joy as soon as I'm informed my partner is pregnant.

You are right though, less of that garbage comes your way if you sport external genitalia.

[Lucinda]

3. I didn't either, and I never had them. I always thought that

I would make that decision when I found someone I wanted to spend my life with. I didn't have any great desire to have children, but I would have discussed it if my husband had wanted them. He didn't want to have children either, so that was the end of the discussion. The odd thing is that we both ended up with other people that had kids, so we're parents now anyway. Just not full-time in my case.

Don't let anyone else tell you what you want! I heard the same thing from a lot of people. My mother was one of the few that supported my choice.

[Texasgal]

4. When I was younger I told everyone that would listen

that I had no desire to have children.

I am in my 40's now and the desire to have children is still not there. :shrug:

[WillieW]

20. Same here.

[RC]

5. Not all women want to have or to adapt kids.

Some know or at least think they would not make good mothers. Some don't want the responsibility for a wide verity of reasons.
You're correct it is a sexist assumption, just as the same people assume most men don't want to be daddies.

[lies and propaganda]

6. my boyfriend and I are house hunting right now..

I am 28 and he is 36, though I barely look 21, and EVERY freaking person asks where my kids are!

And then the looks when you tell them you dont, like its a personal affront.

[Howler]

7. I never wanted kids either!

I am 49 now and I don't regret not having children.
I also have 4 girlfriends that have made the same choice we are all happy and healthy.

[Crunchy Frog]

8. I had an overwhelming urge to have children

which is why I'm about to have twin boys, while turning 46 in a couple of days.

That's just me though. I would never try to extrapolate from myself to other people. I would, however, highly reccomend to anyone who thinks she might want to have biological children later on, to get some of your eggs frozen.

[Maru Kitteh]

87. CONGRATULATIONS Crunchy Frog! I know EXACTLY how you feel, minus the joy of twins.

No little ones here, but I haven't given up the dream.

I totally support anyone's desire to have more children and I totally support anyone's desire to remain child-free. What an improvement we would see int he world if every adult were empowered to make these important choices for themselves and every single child was born into a family that wanted and cherished them.

Hugs and kisses to your little boys. I'm so happy for you.

[geckosfeet]

9. I am glad that you mentioned the idea that every man wants to be a father is bogus as well.

It's just not true. I have never wanted children although I almost came to accept the idea that it "was the right thing to do".

I am glad that I came to accept (if not fully understand) my own feelings about this.

[no_hypocrisy]

10. One of my contributions to this world has been to forego having children.

My parents probably shouldn't have done it (yes, that puts me out of existence) and I learned from them you don't have children b/c society expects you to.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

98. Amen.

Society needs to go fuck itself where this issue is concerned.

[SteelPenguin]

156. Isn't that how more kids are made?

:hide:

[Warren DeMontague]

193. Right. Society should not judge people who don't want kids, NOR get in the way of the self-righteous

people without them when they feel the need to pontificate against the rest of us "spawning".

Yes- don't judge me and my choices, now excuse me while I judge the fuck out of you and yours.

:puke:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

202. My not breeding doesn't harm an innocent child.

Irresponsible breeding does.

Big difference. You're good goddamn right I'll judge irresponsible assholes who breed children they don't really want and aren't capable of being decent parents to. And I will judge nosy control freaks who pressure and browbeat people into having kids they're not sure they want.

Assuming that you are one of the good parents I'm going to remind you once again:

This.

Isn't.

About.

YOU.

[Warren DeMontague]

283. Actually, the thread isn't about your fatwa against smug yuppie breeders, either.

It's about one person's assertion that she should be able to make up her own damn mind, which I agree with.

It's funny-- these "smug, self-centered yuppies" that you're so sure are pumping out way "too many" kids.. got any demographic data to back THAT up? Because, it's already been established that you don't want to hear how the population explosion on planet Earth is generally confined to third world countries, instead of the US and Europe-- and you certainly don't want to hear how the population 'problem', as it is, in the US is due to immigration, not birth rates.. See, bringing up where overpopulation due to high birth rates means one is a 'racist', and mentioning immigration is similarly taboo to some elements of liberal orthodoxy...

But I find it fascinating that you're so sure that there are millions of "smug yuppies" pumping out 'litters' of babies, then presumably giving them SUVs and arming them with flamethrowers to send them into the rainforest to start celebratory bonfires on their 16th birthday. It's sort of like how the right wing, in the 80s, was convinced that there were legions of black 'welfare queens', having babies and eating bon-bons while taking limosuines to the welfare office to pick up their checks. No amount of factual evidence was ever provided, and no amount of demographic information to the contrary could convince those docker clad proto-dittoheads that this Reaganesque fantasy was just that.

Similarly, I guess you know that the country is overpopulated by Escalade-driving screamingly selfish yuppie broods, all giving the finger to you and your righteous sensibilities as they force your favorite hipster radio station to stop playing Ani DiFranco and start playing the Wiggles. Anyone mentioning the fact that most of the people with large families- i.e. more than 2 kids- in this country probably aren't "smug yuppies" at all, is probably wasting their time.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

289. Wow! That was some tirade.

However, I think you are channeling your anger toward several other posters at me.

But I find it fascinating that you're so sure that there are millions of "smug yuppies" pumping out 'litters' of babies, then presumably giving them SUVs and arming them with flamethrowers to send them into the rainforest to start celebratory bonfires on their 16th birthday. It's sort of like how the right wing, in the 80s, was convinced that there were legions of black 'welfare queens', having babies and eating bon-bons while taking limosuines to the welfare office to pick up their checks. No amount of factual evidence was ever provided, and no amount of demographic information to the contrary could convince those docker clad proto-dittoheads that this Reaganesque fantasy was just that.

Oh. My. God. :wow: You did NOT just compare your experience with a few comments on a message board with the Southern Strategy! You've got chutzpah, I'll give you that.


Similarly, I guess you know that the country is overpopulated by Escalade-driving screamingly selfish yuppie broods, all giving the finger to you and your righteous sensibilities as they force your favorite hipster radio station to stop playing Ani DiFranco and start playing the Wiggles. Anyone mentioning the fact that most of the people with large families- i.e. more than 2 kids- in this country probably aren't "smug yuppies" at all, is probably wasting their time.

And the cliches and stereotypes keep coming. The lesbian baiting was a nice touch. :thumbsup:

Sadly, I'm still not going to genuflect before you because you procreated.

[misanthrope]

102. I know my parents shouldn't have bred...

...the only reason they married was because my mother got knocked up, then miscarried after the vows. She got pregnant again not too much later, then had another kid after me.

Dad didn't want to be married, much less a father. He became scarce when I was entering grade school. He left for good around the time I was 10. He never remarried in the 35 years since.

My mother is nuts and the divorce brought out every crazy iota in her. Among her histrionics were things like trying to involve my sister and I in her suicide attempts, giving us front row seats to hysterical episodes in public places and endless nights of psychological games and manipulation. It didn't take long to realize she saw me as a surrogate for my father and harbored some resentment toward me as a result.

And all of this started not long after I was molested by a relative.

The subsequent decades haven't been too much better in a lot of regards.

My father's father was a greedy bigot who tried to control everything and everyone around him. His father was a jerk as well.

At least I'm finally exercising the foresight to put this string of misery to an end by remaining childless.

[Muttocracy]

120. Some people really aren't cut out to be parents

my parents included, though not as bad as yours.

:hug:

[Zhade]

139. And with Americans using 5x the resources of the developing world...

...that means you've probably saved a lot of lives.

Shame the selfish "I can have as many kids as I want, fuck you if you don't like it" types outnumber awesome people like you.

[Warren DeMontague]

155. So, ballpark figure- how many lives would be "saved" if the U.S. Population dropped to Zero?

Just a guess?

Yes, as a matter of fact, people CAN have as many kids as they want. This isn't fucking China.

I respect peoples' right to CHOOSE to have kids, or not to have kids. Funny how a thread about "don't judge me for not having kids" inevitably turns into an excuse for the anti-breeding brigade to march in and start judging people FOR having kids. Okay.... Just don't judge people who don't.

Do I have it right?

[Zhade]

163. Yes, I judge selfish people who think they're the only ones who matter.

I make no apology for that.

[Warren DeMontague]

191. And I judge people with such limited vision and self loathing that the only "solution" they can

come up with for the worlds problems amounts to, essentially, "we all suck, and should die".

[mrreowwr_kittty]

204. And I judge people who are so consumed with narcissism and grandiosity

That the only response they have to the horrific destruction that our species is causing to the planet, and the attendent threats to our very own survival as a species is, "human beings are awesome, let's make lots more of them!"

[pipi_k]

228. You know what should humble the biggest egos?

The only species that could disappear tomorrow and make no difference in this world is our own.

The world would go on.

It would probably be better, to tell the truth.


I myself would hate to see Mankind end. Well, most of the time. Sometimes I really hate human beings for being so stupid and thinking they are God.

But yeah...humans could disappear from the face of the earth and it would probably be for the best for all other creatures, and the earth itself.

That knowledge alone should put us all in our places...


;)

[Warren DeMontague]

274. You two must be a blast at parties.

"But yeah...humans could disappear from the face of the earth and it would probably be for the best for all other creatures, and the earth itself."

Oh, for fuck's sake.

Define "best". The Planet Earth has survived a shitload worse than us-- like a giant meteor strike at Chixiclub, for one.

Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, Mother Earth knows what she's doing in having an intelligent, technologically advanced species on her surface, even one that causes a measure of environmental damage? :shrug:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

290. I can see you hanging out with Ben Stein at a party right about now.

I'm sure you guys would have a fascinating discussion about Intelligent Design, the global warming hoax, and the myth of overpopulation.

But sorry, I don't believe in fairy stories.

[pipi_k]

165. Can't speak for the other person, but I would imagine the point is not

that the US population should "drop to zero", but that population growth should drop to zero. That means maintaining a steady population.

Oh, and I don't agree that people should be able to have as many kids as they want. I don't personally see what the benefits are in allowing everyone to spawn kids just because they possess the necessary "equipment" for making them.

We've got alcoholics, drug addicts, abusers, etc., all spawning kids that will, sooner or later, become victims...either of their parents, the System, or both. A great many of them will also come to victimize others.

I have a SIL who was taking in foster kids from the state until a brain tumor made it necessary for her to stop. You know what it was? Basically a stopping off point until the kids got old enough to be released into society where nobody gives a shit what happens to them. The parents have kids, then don't know how to raise them. Then they become Society's problem. Society's scapegoats, in a manner of speaking.

Not fair to the kids, not fair to Society.

Fuck the parents. I don't give a rat's ass about them, or their "rights" to have as many kids as they want to.

I'd like to see some better standards applied toward people who want to inflict their children on the rest of us besides the inescapable fact that they are "able to have them".

[Zhade]

168. You pretty much nailed it.

NT!

[Warren DeMontague]

192. And do any of the people pontificating on this subject know what the pop. growth rate in the US is?

Or care?

The third world is where the population growth problem is. The US population grows through immigration more than it does through selfish yuppies "spawning", as you put it.

But don't let the truth get in the way of a good 15 minute hate.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

203. It's not zero.

With our current growth rate of .9%, US population will double before the end of this century. The world's population is set to double in about 35 years at the current growth rate of about 2%.

[mainer]

209. But Warren DeMontague does have a point. It's mostly immigration.

I believe that the population growth in the U.S. is largely because of immigration. Americans are barely breeding enough for replacement. In Japan and western Europe, they have negative growth, and there is massive concern about what will happen to their economies -- not to mention their growing elderly population -- when the younger population shrinks so much that social welfare systems can't be funded.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

214. Immigration accounts for 1/3 of it.

Without it, we'd be at .6% growth. Which means we'd double our population in about 116 years using the algorithm of 70 (divide the percentage of growth into 70 to determine how long it will take to double).

I believe that the population growth in the U.S. is largely because of immigration. Americans are barely breeding enough for replacement. In Japan and western Europe, they have negative growth, and there is massive concern about what will happen to their economies -- not to mention their growing elderly population -- when the younger population shrinks so much that social welfare systems can't be funded.

I'll let the good people of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (I'm not endorsing their organization's goal but they have some good information) answer that:

Q: Who will pay our social security when we're old?

“The new demographics that are causing populations to age and to shrink are something to celebrate. Humanity was once caught in the trap of high fertility and high mortality. Now it has escaped into the freedom of low fertility and low mortality. Women's control over the number of children they have is an unqualified good -- as is the average person's enjoyment, in rich countries, of ten more years of life than they had in 1960. Politicians may fear the decline of their nations' economic prowess, but people should celebrate the new demographics as heralding a golden age.”

~Editorial from The Economist January 7, 2006

Despite the wisdom of the above quote, it is a rare expression of lower birth rates' positive side. Those who benefit most from an increasing population density -- identified in the previous Q & A -- also happen to own or finance major media outlets. As a result, we are regularly told that an economic crisis looms if we don't breed more future workers. A Washington Post reporter wrote of “countries struggling with the threat of zero population growth.”

Although most systems of providing for retired citizens are financed by taxing working citizens, the concept of needing younger people to support older people is obsolete. If used responsibly, products from the industrial and technological revolutions could satisfy our needs without selling our children into wage slavery.

Social security systems are artificial, so adjustments for changes, such as a reduction in the number of potential workers, can be made.

Automation removes more workers from payrolls than birth control does. Owners of the machines gain the “wages” formerly paid to workers, without paying a percentage into pension funds. Adjustments could be made.

Unemployment reveals that we already have enough potential workers. Increasing employment and increasing wages will increase funds paid to social security.

In the USA, a pea-and-shell game is being played on taxpayers. More money is taken in for social security than is shelled out, but the remainder vanishes instead of being invested for future pensioners.

The solution to having our nest eggs stolen isn't to lay more eggs.

[Warren DeMontague]

277. "voluntary human extinction movement"

Like I said. You must be a fucking blast at parties.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

291. Shorter Warren DeMontague:

"I'm a parent! Worship me! Wah!" :nopity:

[Warren DeMontague]

281. I also like how they make sure to include "voluntary" in the organization's name.

Makes them sound so, you, know, reasonable.

As per the article you post:

Women's control over the number of children they have is an unqualified good

I notice they didn't say "it's an unqualified good as long as they only have as many kids as I, personally, think they should be permitted to have"... and isn't it funny, that people in developed countries with high standards of living, access to contraception, and freedom, seem to limit reproduction on their own, without endless amounts of harangues from voluntary human extinctionists, even? :shrug:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

293. Awww, whatsamatter Warren, is the big bad website scawing you?

Yes, it's a voluntary movement. You should read the site. Really, it won't bite you.

[Phillycat]

218. So we should have children to support ourselves or some older generation?

How about we just save all the damned money we'd spend on the kids and pay for our own old age?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

223. It is pretty awful, isn't it?

"You are obligated to produce children to be sacrificed on the altar of commerce."

[Warren DeMontague]

275. No one is "obligated" to do anything.

As you may have noticed, pretty much everyone in the thread agrees with the OP, that anyone who doesn't want kids, more power to 'em.

Unfortunately, as could have been predicted, this thread has been hijacked by the "you fucking selfish yuppies should stop breeding" Brigade.

Just make sure to include the asterisk when you describe yourself as "pro choice", as in "I'm Pro Choice*"

* So long as I personally, agree with your choice.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

295. I would describe you as:

"Praise my choice or I will whine incessantly"

[mainer]

240. Pay whom? If the younger generation doesn't exist?

Who is there to take care of you?

What is left out in all this narcissistic rambling (and is there any bigger narcissist than the person who doesn't want to bother with raising kids because they require too much effort?), we forget the joys of parenthood. Namely, the opportunity to bestow unconditional love on another human being, and to see the future in young faces.

[pipi_k]

249. Some people recognize that they would not make good parents

Tell me what's such a great idea about people who know they wouldn't make good parents having children they don't want.


Maybe someone can explain to this little girl:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haleigh_Poutre


that she was brought into this world because her mom was afraid she'd be accused of being a narcissist for not having children. The mom gave her up to her sister, and that's when the beatings started.

If you haven't seen the photos, count yourself lucky.


Thank goodness the kid's mother is dead...killed by HER mother in a murder/suicide. Had she lived, poor Haleigh wouldn't be able to care for her, as she's a near-vegetable now. If Haleigh is ever able to contribute to Society, it will be a near-miracle.

I'm not suggesting that this would happen in all cases.

Having children should not be a "right". It's a responsibility that should be taken VERY seriously. Some people realize that they are not suited to that responsibility. Why try to shame them for recognizing that it's a responsibility they can't/don't want to take on?

[mainer]

252. I absolutely agree. But they shouldn't condemn others as "breeders."

That's my beef with some of the posts here, condemning parents as selfish, narcissistic destroyers of the earth. If you don't want kids don't have them. I'm with you there 100%.

As for the sins of "breeding," I have lived abroad, where I've witnessed the joys of multigenerational families caring for each other. Grandparents doting on grandchildren, relatives who enjoy shared history and recipes and stories. Those who come from happy families simply want to replicate the joys of their childhoods and have happy families of their own.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

255. Yeah, you're with us 100%. After you call us immature narcissists, of course.

And don't pretend it's because of what's been said on this thread. I'll bet you've thought that about people who choose not to be parents for a long time. I'll bet you've told it to people to their faces before. You are EXACTLY the kind of person the OP is talking about. One who ASSumes women should be mothers and thinks there's something wrong with those who don't want to be. Now your fee fees are hurt because of some of the things you are reading here. Good.

[mainer]

258. The "breeders" were called narcissists way up-thread.

So now you're upset that someone responded. Sheesh.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

260. Some are narcissists. Some are not.

Just as some childfree people are narcissists and some are not. You said: "and is there any bigger narcissist than the person who doesn't want to bother with raising kids because they require too much effort?" That's pretty categorical statement since the number one reason people are childfree is because the effort of raising kids doesn't appeal to us. We have the self-awareness and maturity to realize that and make the responsible choice. The least people could fucking do is respect that but no.

[Warren DeMontague]

276. I respect people who don't want kids.

Unlike some folks, I don't waste a whole ton of time worrying about other people's life choices.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

285. But you do waste a ton of time demanding to be worshipped for yours. nt

[pipi_k]

261. I don't see where people are condemning others for having children

At least, not having children responsibly.

Responsible childbearing means you care enough about our planet to have children only to replace yourself and another person. Zero population growth...at least that way.

The people I call "breeders" are the ones who indiscriminately pump out kid after kid after kid because, in their words, "I can afford them". Or, more repulsively, "It's my right".

And my biggest disgust is for people who have kid after kid and then foist them off on the system, either because they can't afford them financially, or they are alcoholics or drug addicts. I'm probably going to piss off a lot of people with my opinion, but I seriously think such people should undergo mandatory sterilization...either surgically, or through monitored medications.

Fuck them and their "rights". Every child has a right to be born into a world where it's going to be wanted and cared for.

[Phillycat]

279. Yes, there is.

There is a bigger narcissist than someone who doesn't want to bother with kids. The bigger narcissist is the person who has kids without knowing why they're having them or what will be involved in it. And there's freaking BILLIONS of them.

"The joys of parenting" is subjective. Looks like abject misery from this angle.

[pipi_k]

224. Let's talk a little about hate

because it sounds like you're a little resentful of the people who weren't born in this country and virtually pointing to them as being the main cause of the overpopulation problem.

Like they don't have the right to come here and add to the population, whereas REAL citizens can have as many kids as they want to.

Maybe I'm wrong, though.

I don't know what the population growth is, or was, except that at one point I remember it was around 200 million and now the population is at, or over 350 million. Some of that is due to selfish people in this country having kids because they think it's their god-given right to.

whatever.

Call it "pontificating" if you like. This is a discussion board and I was giving my opinion, just like everyone else.

[mainer]

241. Hate? It's a statistical number. I could just as easily say you hate children.

And I'm the daughter of immigrants. It's immigrants who keep this country afloat, and immigrants who keep western Europe functioning.

[pipi_k]

248. I don't hate children

In point of fact, I hate the people who think it's their god-given right to populate the earth with the fruits of their own DNA...or the people who don't plan ahead, having four, five, six, or more children based on the "NOW". Then something happens and they're running around trying to support those children when times turn bad. Who suffers? The kids.

I also don't have a problem with immigrants. Nearly all of us are immigrants of a sort anyway, aren't we? Except for the native peoples. The truth of it is, if we look back far enough, nearly all of us have ancestors who came, recently or not so recently, to this country from someplace else.

Americans are still among the most fortunate people in the world, to live as we do (most of us). I'm happy and proud to share the benefits with others who come here looking for a better life. If doing that means the rest of us have to take a little responsibility and not have litters of children so we can sustain a stable population (i.e. one that doesn't strain the limits of our resources) then that's what we have to do.

[mainer]

253. Most Americans aren't having "litters."

On average, they're having two point one kids. So other than that weirdo family with the 20 kids, why are parents in general such targets of disgust here?

[pipi_k]

262. I think you're reading something into posts that doesn't exist

I don't see where people are directing disgust at ALL parents.

Only the irresponsible ones.

I haven't checked the statistics, so I don't know how many children people are having these days, on average. If it's 2 or thereabouts, I'm sure nobody has a problem. I know I don't.

But there are still lots of people who are having more than the number of children required to maintain a steady population.

I call those people selfish and self centered.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

254. No dear, we don't hate children

We hate parents who are smug, annoying, entitled-acting, attention-whores. We hate parents who thoughtlessly pop out kids without considering the environment or their own fitness to be parents. Why would we hate kids? It's not their fault so many of them were brought into the world by selfish idiots.

[Warren DeMontague]

273. Bullshit. Hate.

Right, when you grouse endlessly about "popping out kids", you don't do it because you have some kind of fucking problem with the whole thing. Right.

The birth rate in the USA is 2.05 children per woman, which is statistically indistinguishable from zero population growth. So to make you happy, what should the birth rate be in this country? You know, so we "smug, annoying, entitled-acting attention whores" will know what to do? Please, Stalin, guide us-- tell us how to live our lives!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

288. Uh, you might want to take remedial statistics.

We have .9% population growth. If that remains unchanged the population of the US will double in 70 years.

What should the growth rate be? IMHO it should be negative.

Speaking of hate, you have revealed your own bigotry in a few posts. Don't like them furriners and brown people much, do you?

[Warren DeMontague]

304. I'm going to sum up my responses into one post, because really I don't have time for this noise.

Particularly not every one of your "I know you are but what am I" responses in this thread. Whatever.

Let me simplify: Reducing population growth in the United States will not address the population problem in the third world. The lesson to be taken away from the FACT that Developed Western Nations have reduced their birth rates on their own is that when people with a relatively high standard of living and a high degree of freedom to make their own decisions (I know, a pretty repulsive concept to those advocating "voluntary extinction" and mandatory sterilization for people who have "too many" kids) ... people limit birth rates on their own, with no help from hectoring anti-breeding advocates, even. You have a problem with population, talk to the Pope or the other "authorities" who want to keep contraception and information out of peoples' hands. Pointing out that the third world is where the population problem remains is NOT racist- and if you look at the reasons why people have so many kids, you might learn something. See, all over the world, the #1 reason people have lots of kids isn't because they 'feel entitled', it's poverty-- paradoxically, because a larger family may increase their chances to get by. But it also increases the general societal burden. Improving the conditions for people in the third world- and improving their access to contraception- is the way to address the "population problem", such as it still exists. That is not a "racist" point of view. And trying to argue that hectoring Americans or citizens of other developed nations to reduce their reproductive rate further-- when they've done a perfectly fine job of it on their own, TYVM-- it's just idiotic, and it does NOTHING for the people in the 3rd world you claim to care about so much.

Furthermore, the fact remains that population growth in the US is more due to immigration than it is to birth rates. That doesn't mean I 'don't like furriners', but then I'm not the one running around like I'm on fucking fire about some imaginary population problem in the US that doesn't exist. I'm a Californian, I know how important immigrants are to the economy. Personally, I think if we're going to 'address' immigration at all, it needs to be in enforcing laws on the employers who hire them. I don't see much point in us having a minimum wage or other worker protection laws if we're going to allow companies, hiring illegal immigrants, to get large amounts of cheap labor without paying it or following them. (and no, that does NOT mean I'm 'against the minimum wage')

I'm still waiting for some link to where I expected anyone to worship me for breeding; :7 :thumbsup: Nevermind, like the shit elsewhere in the thread (maybe it was yours, maybe someone else's) railing against 'entitled yuppies' 'popping out litters', don't let the facts get in the way of a good 15 minute hate. Yeah, me and Ben Stein, really.. we hang out ALL the time. :crazy:

Speaking of which, I'm not the one who asserted that a mass human die-off would be 'good for the Earth'; but if people want to Anthropomorphize nature or the planet, then I think it's entirely reasonable to ask why 'she' knew exactly what she was doing up until the moment a technologically advanced civilization appeared on 'her' surface. If you ask me (and I know you don't) it's just a re-framing of the old "original sin" crap-- everything was hunky dory until along came humankind, the sinner.

Lastly, I *like* Ani DiFranco, who I note has recently joined the ranks of us selfish obnoxious breeders. Maybe that makes me a Lesbian? :shrug:

[Scout]

308. "because really I don't have time for this noise"

does this mean you're finally through spewing into this thread?

[Warren DeMontague]

309. Thanks for your input.

Actually, short of this ridiculous (and yet shockingly predictable) anti-breeder grousing noise, it would seem the thread has run its course.

Pretty much everyone agrees that if the OP doesn't want kids, hey, more power to her.

Maybe those of you looking for 'sacred, protected space' in which to complain about the grand parenthood conspiracy should consider starting a new one?

[pipi_k]

227. PS...

and yes...some people do care what the population growth rate is in the US.

Especially people who are scrabbling for limited resources. Like in certain places in the south, hard hit by recent droughts. People...whole towns...fighting over water.

What if a huge Dust Bowl hit the mid-US like the one in the 1930s?


People think they can just keep propagating and the earth will just keep providing for them. That's as stupid as believing that one can fit 10 ounces of toothpaste in a 2 ounce tube. The earth is finite. It cannot continue to support unrestrained population growth.

If the US...alleged "leader" of the world, can't even demonstrate sound, responsible behavior with respects to our environment, how can we expect others to do it? What is this...do as we say, not as we do?

[MajorChode]

11. Never say never

It is quite common for attitudes to change quite radically as you get older, especially towards children. In fact, I would venture to say that the vast majority of people's attitudes do change. Mine certainly did. As you reach a certain age, the desire to have children becomes quite strong in most people and I do think that desire is probably stronger for women than it is for men. That's not really being sexist because I don't really see it as devaluing women. It just reflects reality. I don't see anything inherently wrong with either wanting children or not wanting children, and I think that's a good way to look at it.

[Berry Cool]

14. I think it's too big an assumption.

If it's true that "most" people want children as they grow older, why is that? Because they really want to raise people to adulthood and to contribute to society, or because they're facing mortality and see a piece of themselves as living on if they have kids?

If it's only the latter, their motivations are purely biological selfishness, and anyone who doesn't give in to or feel them is to be commended.

And yes, it IS devaluing of women and sexist to say it happens more to women, because it implies women's primary value is as baby makers--and that it's OK that they should feel the call more than men because men aren't primarily baby makers.

[skepticscott]

21. In some instances

it's also the case that people do it because of strong pressures from family or society at large. It is seen by some as the human duty of all those of breeding age to have as many children as possible (ignoring the obvious fact that this trend could not continue forever) or as their religious duty not to artificially interfere with the process. The ultimate result is too damn many people having children that don't want them.

[MajorChode]

35. I think you're missing the mark here

IMO the biggest reason for having children has nothing to do with anything you've suggested. The biggest reason for having children is how much they enrich your life from the day they are born throughout their adulthood. Perhaps those are selfish motives, but I think you would have a hard time justifying having children with any motives that aren't selfish to some degree. That doesn't mean it's wrong. None of us would be here if our parents didn't have selfish motives.

I also feel that expecting women to think exactly like men and vise versa is one of the biggest forms of sexism out there. It's both demeaning and devaluing to women to expect them to conform to gender neutral values. It ignores the physiological and psychological differences between the sexes. It is possible to recognize those differences without having the attitude that women should be barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. Where sexism comes in is when you discriminate or belittle one sex or the other for not conforming to some predefined expectation.

[Jazzgirl]

39. I don't agree.

Most of the people I know that made the same decision I did have never changed their minds. In fact, I don't know any of them that changed their mind. They might be in relationships where the other person has children but they never opted to have any. I am sure there are people that do change their minds but I bet most don't.

[MajorChode]

43. I see it a bit differently

My experience has been the opposite, but both of our accounts are purely anecdotal and not necessarily reflective of society as a whole. As far as your friends that are in relationships with others who already have children, I would say they did opt into them at least to some degree, just not by proxy of their seed or womb.

[Scout]

83. i said never, so did my sister, and several of my friends are child-free

:shrug:

[MajorChode]

86. I have a friend that said never. Now his wife is knocked up with their 6th

[Scout]

181. did HE say never, or did SHE?

if it was HE, he should have gotten a vasectomy if he was really serious.

[MiniMe]

132. An interesting comment given the "hobby" you have listed

in your profile.

[lukasahero]

183. And stop telling people what they will feel based on your own experience

It's fucking arrogant to tell someone that they will change their mind when they "grow up". I'm 45 and never wanted, still don't and never had children. People used to tell me that would change as if I didn't know my own mind. It's insulting.

[sarge43]

184. Can't speak for others, but as I aged the more certain I became

that not wanting, let alone having, children was one of my better decisions. Gosh, wrangling teenagers in mid and late middle age; that has real appeal.

Yeah, I experience the urge, heard the bio clock ticking. All living creatures have the desire to reproduce. However, I'm also self aware with a functioning brain. I knew, still know, there's a hellva lot more to successful parenting than merely reproducing and that I wouldn't be a good parent. A child does not need to be on the receiving end of any one who really didn't want him/her.

[lukasahero]

185. "All living creatures have the desire to reproduce."

Good grief, was that necessary? I NEVER felt the 'desire to reproduce'. That's the whole point of the OP - not telling other people what they feel.

[sarge43]

186. I was talking about biological imperatives, not conscious cognitive decisions.

If living entities did not have a drive (a better choice than desire) to reproduce, this planet wouldn't be pulsing with life. As Carl Sagan pointed out, it's what hydrogen atoms do, given 15 billion years of evolution. We are also self aware, thinking creatures and make decisions also counter to inherit instincts, such as aggression or xenophobia.

[Scout]

189. the drive is not to reproduce ... the drive is to have sex n/t

[DutchLiberal]

210. No, the drive is to reproduce. Having sex just for the sake of sex is a fairly new concept.

[Scout]

242. for the majority of human history, people did not know that sex lead to reproduction

the drive is to fuck, which leads to reproduction. if we didn't have the drive to fuck, if it didn't feel good, we wouldn't do it. i sure wouldn't do something so seemingly ridiculous if it wasn't pleasurable.

[DutchLiberal]

303. I doubt that. I think that on a subconscious level, reproducing has always been the goal.

Of course I'm not a biologist...

[Phillycat]

220. I think mine's broken.

My biological clock just blinks 12:00, 12:00, 12:00. :D

[otohara]

12. You Might Change Your Mind

hormones have wrecked havoc on my body and mind my entire life. Then when I was in my 30's after years of not ever wanting children, something changed, the hormones took over. The proverbial clock kicked in and my desire to have a kid took over. So I had one, just one.

Then prepare yourself for a midlife crisis that kicks in when those hormones start slipping away.

Hormones, can't control em, can't live without em ...until you have to.

[Phillycat]

178. This statement is so insulting.

And sexist. We can't be sure about something because we're women and our hormones rule our lives?? Bull. I'm 36 and my alleged "biological clock" has yet to make an appearance.

Other women have FINALLY stopped with the fucking "you'll change your mind" now that I'm past 35. Thank heavens.

[otohara]

187. Oh Please

I said you "might" change your mind.

If you want to dismiss the experiences of us much older than yourself, that's your prerogative. I remember a time (when i was in my 30's) when I thought I knew everything the future had in store for me and it sure didn't include a husband and a now 21 year old son.

Hormones are a powerful force and do rule many aspects of our health and mind. To deny that is naive. Biological clocks do exist, even in our male counterparts. There's a whole host of articles about hormones and behavior at your disposal.

Estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, luteinizing and follicle I miss them all.

And one more thing from this old gal, if you ever might think you have a hormonal imbalance...take Vitex, works like a charm on most women.

[lukasahero]

194. "dismiss the experiences of us much older than yourself"

Speak for yourself, please. There are plenty "old gals" also in this thread saying just what the OP is saying and we never changed our minds.

[otohara]

198. How's This

Some women make decisions about not having children and stick to it.

Some women have life altering experiences after making the same decision and after years of thinking and saying there's no fucking way I'm going to bring a kid into this world... she changes her mind!

Peace fellow old gal sister, peace!

[pipi_k]

257. I changed my mind....

only in the other direction.

When I was a child, I loved being with my dad's family because he had so many brothers and sisters (actually half bros and sisters, but that's beside the point). Holidays were really special as we all sat around the table and I felt safe and warm and fuzzy. I used to think, "When I grow up, I want to have seven...no, twelve kids".


Then I grew up. I had three, one of whom died in infancy.

I'm now glad I never had those seven or twelve kids after all.

Raising children is one of the toughest jobs in the world, and I'm glad a lot of people take it seriously and don't have children just to satisfy their own, or someone else's, fantasies.

[Ilsa]

13. I have a sister that decided not to have children. No biggie.

I've also heard other people call childless women "selfish" for making their choice. Ridiculous.

[Maru Kitteh]

88. Calling people "selfish" for not having children is just as ugly as people who call women "selfish"

for having them. Both are ridiculous. I'm sorry people have said that about your sister and her personal choice, because that's what it is.

[snot]

15. Leaves you more time to contribute to the future in other ways.

Never wanted kids, never had them, never regretted it.

[roody]

16. I'm 55, do not have children, do have a good job, and

yes, my life is a lark.

[Inkyfuzzbottom]

17. It is so irritating, isn't it?

I just turned 50 and never wanted children. I love kids but I never wanted any of my own. I could never find a doc to give me a tubal because they always insisted I'd change my mind. Finally, at 40 I found a female gyn and she was happy to do it. I got so sick of people wanting to know when I was going to have a baby. Even worse were the ones who assumed I couldn't have children and proceeded to feel "sorry" for me. Fortunately my parents NEVER pressured me about giving them grandkids. In fact, they always said they didn't want to be forced to take care of grandkids or for me to assume they'd be built in babysitters if I decided to have kids. I've never regretted being childless by choice. I have so many friends stressing over their kids problems or struggling to raise their grandchildren because their own children can't seem to get it together and raise what they have spawned. No thanks. Call me childless by choice and loving it!

[DebbieCDC]

18. Spot on

I never had children by choice and when my ex and I were still married I got so sick of hearing "when are you going to make (his mother) a grandmother"? It was my choice before we got married, which he agreed with, and my opinion never changed. I have nieces and nephews that I love dearly, but having children of my own was never an option that appealed to me.

[tilsammans]

19. I'm 56, never had kids, and everything turned out fine

I was never that interested in having kids. Perhaps if my situation had been different, and if I'd found a guy who had great dad potential during my prime child-bearing years -- then yes, I might have had a kid. Just one.

But now that I see my friends and family struggling with major child raising issues, I think it's just as well. And so many of the women married bad men because the clock was ticking. Now they have to deal with kid issues AND a bad marriage/divorce.

The busybodies need to buzz off. Your childfree choice is none of their business. :grr:

[aikoaiko]

22. Just encourage your siblings to have kids and then contribute to their upbringing

Its as much a genetic contribution as being a grandparent.

Of course if you are the last of your line, then this doesn't apply.

[Le Taz Hot]

109. So if she is the "last of her line"

she should have children to save "the line?" Wow! May I suggest that the ONLY reason one should have a child is because one WANTS to have a child.

[aikoaiko]

128. That does not follow from what I wrote necessarily.

My point is that one can often experience many of the joys of parenthood by helping siblings raise offspring. One can also experience some of the same joys other ways too.

Person may "want to have a child" for lots of reasons. Continuing the family line is as good as any. Wanting to show bring new life into the world, experience the joy of caring for a child, helping a young person develop into a fine adult, or wanting their own 50% mini-me are all good reasons too.

[DutchLiberal]

211. No, continuing the family line is not a good reason.

It serves no purpose, it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, nobody cares and the world won't stop spinning if the family line gets extinct.

[Glenda]

23. Trust me, you're not going to change your mind...

I have this group of women friends and we sometimes get together to talk about career stuff, etc. THe cool thing is that none of the 6 of us has kids. It's nice.

Kids are not for everyone. FIrst of all, i don't have the maternal instinct. ANd 2ndly, the overstimulation (noise etc) would kill me.

[otohara]

48. I Did

came out of no where...hormones took over my mind & body - I have one kid. Funny thing was, I always thought I wouldn't be a good mother - until I became one.

Now that kid is 21 and I'm oh so glad I changed my mind.

[seabeyond]

58. i didnt want kids and REALLY didnt want to get married.

still not big on the married thing. i really love the guy, he is a good good guy, as easy as pie and an easy marriage. i am just not the marrin' kind. but kids..... i had two. if i had started earlier (i was old) i would have had more.

of course she may change her mind. or maybe not

[gollygee]

24. They're different choices and both have good points and bad points

Both choices are equally valid.

I didn't have a kid till I was in my mid 30s. The time before I had her was good. The time now is good. People certainly don't have to have kids to be happy, and there's no reason people should pressure you or assume you'll change your mind.

[cynatnite]

25. We're thinking our middle daughter might not want kids...

She's living with someone and neither of them appear to be interested. She told me they don't even discuss. She teaches and considers those kids hers in a way. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if she never has kids. She feels her life is very full.

[AtomicKitten]

26. A good friend had a tubal ligation at the age of 20 dispelling that myth once and for all for me.

[cynatnite]

28. Did she have a hard time finding a willing doctor? n/t

[AtomicKitten]

34. Not here in California in 1973. Signed informed consent covers butts. n/t

[cynatnite]

36. When I was in the medical field I knew doctors who wouldn't do it. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

42. California has always had liberal thinking pockets that made this possible

even back in the day.

[madmom]

54. My mom had a hard time finding a doctor who would do it when she was in

her 40's back in '73. She had to have my dad sign a consent form and they both had to go to counseling.

[cynatnite]

56. This is what makes it so sexist...having the husband sign like that...

The counseling for both...yeah, I get that. But to have the husband sign as if she has to ask his permission? :puke:

[madmom]

57. Yeah, I said the same thing, I told her it was bull, but she went along to get it done.

[catzies]

151. Lucky her. I was a single mom of a 10YO when I asked my Dr. to do it. He said NO

Told me I just hadn't found the right man & when I did I would want more kids.

I said, "If he wants kids, he's not the right man." :grr:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4902216&mesg_id=4910801

[AtomicKitten]

172. Good grief! I find that truly sexist behavior on the part of your M.D.

I am so sorry you were subjected to that nonsense.

[justabob]

38. That is my question too

I had such a fight with that... I am sorry to say I finally gave up. The whole time I was pregnant I told them I wanted the tubes tied and listened to all the standard arguements. The last fight happened while I was waiting for "the drug guy" to do my epidural and I just didn't have the strength to fight that fight any more..... It worked out ok, but I really resent that I had to fight and lose a fight over what I want for my own body, just because I was still breeding age.

[cynatnite]

40. I knew women who asked for ligations as you did and were refused...

The male doctor's attitudes were pretty sexist...as if women were flighty creatures who didn't know their own minds.

[justabob]

41. I had a FEMALE doctor

which is even worse imo. I couldnt believe what I was dealing with... every prenatal appt the dicsussion happened, right up to the epidural. Absolutely maddening.

[cynatnite]

44. Yep, that is worse. n/t

[AngryAmish]

162. That's funny.

Everyone knows women can't be doctors.



Next thing you will tell me is that a black guy is president.

[justabob]

47. I have a friend

who has ovarian cysts, has had serious issues her whole life. She has wanted a hysterectomy since she was 20 or so. No one would do it... you might want children... blah blah blah. Just this week I had to take her to the ER due to severe anemia due to the incredible blood loss she has every month. Finally, she will get her wish and have surgery, but in an (almost) emergency setting rather than planned. Which is problematic because of work, savings etc. It is so wrong.

[cynatnite]

53. Hysterectomy is far more permanent than a tubal ligation...

Tubals can be reversed. I don't know any doctor who will do a hysterectomy unless it's absolutely necessary. It's usually a last resort.

[justabob]

72. yes, agreed, but my friend was/is certain

about not having kids, and now she is having to deal with having a surgery she wanted and was ready to have loooong ago. I am just angry for her since now she is going to have to take time off work when she is not in a great position to do it and because had ANYone listened to her and respected her wishes she would have been spared over a decade of misery.

[cynatnite]

74. There are more considerations to take in account in addition to having kids...

There is hormone loss which is directly related to osteoporosis and heart disease. They weren't just concerned that she might change her mind...there are other considerations which is why a hysterectomy is a last resort.

[justabob]

76. yes, I should have acknowledged that point

I was lazy in my post.

I understand that, but we have worked together for 8 of the last 13 years and I have heard about all of it, and seen the endless pain she endures. The number one factor was being a breeding age female, or so my friend says. (I admit I have not sat in on any of her doctor appointments). I do know that her treatment has caused years of unnecessary stress, pain, and frustration and that is what drives my anger.

[Fleshdancer]

99. I've met two women who experienced that

One was single and her doctor told her she would change her mind once she got married. The second woman was married but the doctor wouldn't schedule the ligation unless her husband gave consent.

:grr:

[juno jones]

236. That's similar to what I encountered

With a female doctor even. What was really weird was that I had worked for her at the local med school teaching breast exams and gyn exams to med students. I was disappointed that she went from treating me as someone knowledgable about their body to treating me as someone flighty and utterly lacking a clue.

I had had three kids, the last pregnancy twins (fraternal which means a 30-40% chance of having twins again) and they still wanted to dick me around with depo-provera and implants and all the hormones in the world because 'I might change my mind'.

I stood firm, made it clear that I would drop my doc and find another who would do the deed if she didn't, signed every slip of paper put in front of me and finally got my ligation in '94 several months after the birth of my twins.

I am now in a relationship with a man who never wanted children and when I see my friends who are also in their 40's still worrying about unintentional pregnancy I am so glad that I went thru with it. I have enough on my plate raising my Aspie 18-year-old son without stressing about further pregnancies.

[Career Prole]

27. I've got a 14 year old daughter who has stated

unequivocally she will not have children. She says the world is already having trouble with its population burden and she refuses to add to it...and she reached this view on her own when she was only 9 or 10.
I didn't plant this idea in her head. It grew on its own, but having sprouted I won't discourage it. In fact, it's her mom who tells her she'll change her mind and when she speaks to me of it when we're alone she says our girl will change her mind when she's older. I tell her Mom at these times, "I sure hope not!"
She's part of the new generation, my girl. The ones who will be faced with fixing all the previous generations' excesses and because there are so many kids like her who are socially conscious long before my generation was I allow myself a little hope for the future every now and again. Not a lot, mind...but some.
You don't want to have kids for any reason up to and including "I just don't feel like it"? I say "Good for you, lightningandsnow!"
:)

[Maru Kitteh]

89. When I was 14 I was going to find a way to marry Nick Rhodes from Duran Duran

He would be smitten by me because I was on my way to becoming a concert violinist and a brilliant palaeontologist with absolutely impeccable fashion sense.



If you think she knows everything now, just wait! :rofl: In three years she'll be wrecking your car.

[athena]

114. Not all 14-year-olds are the same.

I was 15 when I decided I did not want children. My reasons at that time were similar to Career Prole's daughter's reasons. I'm now 33 and have not changed my mind. I also never wrecked anyone's car.

Congratulations to Career Prole for respecting her daughter's thoughtful decision.

[treestar]

29. I don't know what it is about people but when they get married or

have children they think everyone else should. Maybe since it makes them happy, they think it should make everyone else happy, and it's out of good will.

[seabeyond]

60. out of good will.

i think that is it as much as anything. as i said in another post, i didnt want kids, and more, i didnt want marriage. i didnt have kids until old either. now that i had kids, i love love love it. the best for ME. so much more than i could ever have considered prior to having kids. and so much more.

my mom would talk to me about marrying and i would say no. she would say, i want you to be happy and i say, i am. but more happy. happy is happy i would say. but now that i am married, i know what she is talking about, that i wouldnt have understood if i never did

that being said

there are a lot of parents that should NOT have had kids. wish they didnt. there are men and women that dont want kids. totally respect that too. i have family members all over without kids. as much a norm as having kids

se la vi (or however, lol)

[misanthrope]

103. Oxytocin is a helluva drug**nm

**

[GodlessBiker]

30. It bothers a lot of straight men, too.

[Warpy]

31. Nope, you're not alone

because I always knew I didn't want children and it came as a great relief when doctors gave me ample reasons not to risk producing them.

Not all of us are equipped to be mothers and I see some very sad children out there who were born to women who really didn't want children at all but had them because everybody else did want them.

My own biological clock ran down years ago and I have no regrets about not producing children. I never changed my mind, never felt the pull, and never longed for the patter of little feet. I've enjoyed the children of friends and enjoyed handing them back.

We are a minority, though, and we make the majority uncomfortable by presenting them with a "what if?" question about their own lives, which is why they want us to acknowledge the possibility of becoming baby besotted later in life.

My advice is to humor them, brush off the irritation, and change the subject.

[Jazzgirl]

32. I will be 55 in a couple of months and I have never

wanted children and don't regret it one bit. I was lucky because I had a mother that told me to do what I wanted to do as far as having children and don't let anybody talk me/guilt me into having them. She strongly believed you should only have them if you really wanted them. I never changed my mind as I got older and still haven't changed it.

[marions ghost]

33. the common assumption is

that 1. you don't like kids, or 2. you're "immature," or 3. you're weird

Usually none of the above is true.

As the world becomes more and more overpopulated, the assumption that all women must have children will thankfully go out of style.

Our society does not promote village-style group child-rearing, although there's a lot of lip service to it. But look how people (even those who are parents) fight the idea that they should support local school systems if they don't have a child there. And often even within families there is so much rigid control of kids as a reflection of the parents, and so much protection of them in their every waking moment--that no one else in the family is ever trusted with them. These are kids who are growing up with their parents as helicoptering slaves. Not healthy. This also leads to defensiveness--ie. a fear of offending people who don't have kids. Many parents join the supportive Parenting Fraternity and some of them just never seem to get out of that "exclusive club" mindset. They are the ones most bereft when the fledglings leave the nest because child-rearing, while rewarding, cannot be the only reason to exist.

Parenting is a hard job these days, but part of the problem is that there is no trust in this society, even among related or homogeneous groups. People believe intellectually that "it takes a village," but in practice they don't support the idea anymore. Our communities are held together by a thread, and so many people sense that and make the erroneous assumption that the nuclear family can stand alone. Wrong. It's too stressful and turns ordinary parents into martyrs.

Add to these conflicts the antiquated idea that everyone must reproduce as their greatest gift to future generations and these times can feel very oppressive to those who choose not to have kids.

[NeedleCast]

37. I don't know that it's sexist as much as it is an issue with society

As a 35 year old dude who is unmarried with no children (and who want neither), I'm finding more and more that society, as you get older, is geared towards married people and families, even when shopping for groceries.

Still, I wouldn't trade it. I love my lifestyle and have no desire to change it. Nothing against married people or people with children...I'm just a life-long SINK and want to keep it that way. If that means sometimes having to put up with a little sociatal pressure, I'm cool with that.

[Caution]

45. I hate to tell you this but men get this constantly as well.

I'm 35, happily married and childless. Someone mentions it to me nearly every day and I am constantly told that I will regret it if my wife and I don't decide to have children. Please don't make the assumption that this is sexist in nature, personally I think it is mostly a remnant of religious zeal ("go forth and multiply).

It's very irritating isn't it?

[cynatnite]

46. Patrick Swayze and his wife opted to not have children...

Now, he's dying and his wife wishes they had children. I think that's due to the fact she wants to have a piece of her husband so to speak.

The unique reasons people opt to either have or not have are as individual as anything else. I find it fascinating.

[Chovexani]

106. If you don't think it's sexist, check your male privilege please.

Men are simply not subjected to the same level of pressure that women are, because "man" is not synonymous with "baby making machine" the way "woman" is in our patriarchal society. You say "someone" mentions it to you everyday that you should have kids. And that sucks.

But in that same day, women have to deal with 14 billion "someones", between immediate relatives, co-workers, total strangers, physicians, clergy, and the entire mass media establishment, from tv networks to women's magazines to supposedly prestigious newspapers running "selfish evil career women regret not having kids" stories all the time to scare us into heteronormative compliance. Cable channels geared towards women are 24/7 wedding and baby shows. Female celebrities are constantly having their bodies scrutinized for any sign of a "bump" and of course the breathless "will she lose the weight" afterwards. Not to mention our reproductive health and bodily autonomy being subject to scrutiny and regulation by legislative bodies and religious institutions that are 90+% male.

It is not the same thing, at all, and the men in this thread claiming it is have a rather huge blind spot.

[azmouse]

49. I knew when I was in my 20s that I didn't want children.

Then when I turned 30 I sorta changed my mind but not really. How to explain? I don't know.... I tried to get pregnant but couldn't. I've often wondered how much of that inability to get pregnant was because deep down I really, truely didn't want children. I was terrified of giving birth. Nothing I ever saw of birthing looked like something I wanted to go through.
So, here I am at the age of 47 and having a wonderful life without children. It worked out well for me. Go with whatever makes you happy. No one else is living your life and don't let anyone talk you into something you know isn't right for you.

[athena]

115. "No one else is living your life ..."

"... and don't let anyone talk you into something you know isn't right for you."

Well said!

[catzies]

50. When I tried to get my tubes tied, Dr. said "You'll change your mind when

you find the right man."

No. I. Didn't.

:grr:

[OCAtheist]

55. What an ass!

I'm 23 and really don't want children. If I ever do, I'd rather adopt than have biological children for various reason, one being the slew of genetic disease present in my family. I'm considered myself lucky to have a doctor who gave me a textbook of information on different procedures and their risks. I'm so sorry you had such an awful doctor!

[catzies]

150. I got it done eventually- 1 month before my daughter turned 18 & graduated HS

Finally I found a WOMAN doctor who believed me when I said "I told you, I never wanted more kids!!!" From when I first started asking to when I at last got it done it was almost TEN YEARS. :grr:

I had my daughter at 17 and was a struggling single mom for YEARS. I never for one minute ever wanted more kids.

On edit: changed "over" to "almost." It was 1990 when I first started asking and it got done in 1998 right before I turned 36.

[MountainLaurel]

59. The thing is

That if he wanted kids, he would not be the right man.

[madmom]

51. My daughter (25) feels the same way.She was always getting into arguments with her

grandmother because "she should just stay home and settle down."

[seabeyond]

52. firstly, why many tell you that you will change your mind is it is about norm

to say you dont want kids young, and then to change your mind. people saying that to you are just mouthing experience. not gonna make you have children. people do that with all kinds of things, all the time. why they cant just let it go and not tell you what you will do is silliness, but that is about it. people tell me i will do all kinds of things since having kids, and i say, no i wont. well, just wait, you will. no, i wont.... lol. i know my mind. and IF you change your mind, not a deal either.

secondly, ..... the majority of women want to have kids. so for a person to make that assumption doesn't make them an ass, just going off what most people do in life. no big deal. why get bothered?

third, .... ya... it is expected that MOST men will want to be fathers, cause MOST men want to be fathers. again, doesn't mean all, but i betcha that men who dont want kids get the same shit as you.

to be bothered by any of this is a total waste of time, imo. but then also, if you want to be bothered, offended, outraged.... go for it. yours to do.

[undeterred]

62. you think your life is a "norm" that you can apply to others

which is obnoxious

[seabeyond]

68. lordy, the offense.... how dare i.

no. i do not think that, so i guess i am not obnoxious. what i am clever enough to understand is that people think in the norm. that is a neutral statement. not good or bad, not right or wrong, just what our brains do. when i posted, i was "explaining", which is an obvious, why people do it.

not a big deal, not a belief of mine nor an insistence that others must do norm, just a simple and logical and obvious explanation.

but good of you to take totally unoffensive and make it offensive.

[undeterred]

69. You think in what YOU consider to be the norm

and you are not empathetic or smart enough to realize that applying your norm to people who are gay, unmarried, infertile, or not interested in reproducing is oppressive... and no, I don't think that's too strong a word. There is no universally recognized "norm" for womens or mens lives. Your "norm" is used to tell people they don't measure up- they are inferior.

[seabeyond]

71. ha.... this has become funny

normal is merely a word. the majority. the majority marry, the majority have kids. that makes it a norm. norm is not an offensive word. why in the hell would you make it into one and then to project all the other made up crap after that is absurd.

norm in my family would be as much not marrying or having kids. probably split in half. so how do you make this mine, when twice now i have said what other people are seeing, thinking, not me in particular. then to take norm to inferior just is a huge ass irresponsible leap.

you want to be offended by my post. just as the op wants to be offended with people that wont buy into her "i dont want kids". i dont think any of it is offensive. and that offends you.

i was perfectly happy not married and without kids until i was 32 and never seeing myself with either. and people who asked didnt bother me at all, and it wasnt all over the place, and i wasnt outraged. been there, done that single without kids until old.

i just do not feel your outrage

not having a family was my choice, i was happy with my choice, i was content, and it really didnt matter what others thought i should do.

on edit: i have been outside the box all my life. i am not uncomfortable with it. just who i am. maybe that is why in no way do i see "normal" as a bad word. i never have lived in the norm. ever. i like it that way

[MajorChode]

77. I understand your intent, but...

"norm" or "normal" brings with it a lot of connotations about conformity, and the implication could be that those who don't conform to the "norm" are abnormal. In the strictest literal sense this is true and also in the strictest literal sense it would not be offensive. However, abnormal is often used in a pejorative fashion so it is understandable how someone could be offended without necessarily diving off into absurdity. So while such an inference may be on the fringes of reasonableness, it's certainly understandable. Rather than simply being antipathetic, both of you should try to better understand where the other is coming from.

[seabeyond]

80. well

i tried to be clear. i have re read my posts and i spent most of the time not using norm, but majority and most. to take one sentence out of all i wrote and be offended takes a lot of work i think. my oldest son has always been odd. beyond abnormal. we have had 13 yrs of heart to hearts accepting his oddity. we dont cushion it into normal, he isnt. not a thing about him is normal. to pretend otherwise is to lie to self. we embrace his oddity

if either of us use the word odd, which is a beautiful, and uniquely his truth people are offended for him. he cannot get people off it. oh no.... you arent odd. as son and i look at each other. well ya..... i/he is.

it doesnt hurt

but

if we want to use majority to not offend, that is fine with me. though i did use it in most of the posts.

[BlooInBloo]

231. You were perfectly clear. Others, in their bizarre lust to be outraged...

are deliberately treating your use of the word "norm" (common, typical) as if it's the *other* use of "norm" (rule, normative).

There's really nothing to be done with those who willfully misinterpret. Anything that you say by way of explanation will be similarly gerrymandered.

[seabeyond]

232. ty

i jumped out of this thread what, days?, ago. lol.

appreciate it.

[BlooInBloo]

233. Yah - I didn't notice the dates until after I had replied. Sorry bout the thread-necro.

[seabeyond]

81. hey

re reading again, i only said it was normal for young people to say they dont want kids and change their minds.

what the hell is wrong with that?

i said the majority of women

most men

i dont put any of that in "normal"

geez

i so am not offensive.

wink

[Lucian]

61. This man never wants to be a father.

I can't stand kids.

[Natalya Slosky]

63. I'm 27 and child-free.

And plan on staying that way.
I get it all the time -- "you need children of your own". It is irritating. I don't WANT children. I am very happy at this point in my life. Children would only add stress to my life. I've felt this way for about ten years now and I don't think I will change my mind. I have two cousins ages 6 and 4 whom I just adore, and I like kids -- but they just aren't for me. Some people aren't meant to have children, and I am one of those people.

[HughBeaumont]

65. THANK YOU.

I have a stepteen. That will be all. But no, kids are suppposedly like potato chips: "Betcha can't just have ONE!".

Uh, yes I can. Got snipped. The end. Kids cost money, myself included. That's not a knock on kids or the decision to have them, it's THE TRUTH. Some more than others. I don't know how I'm going to pay for this one's college and these spoutin' idiots want me to have another one so I can be in a CANYON of debt instead of just a mere ditch.

Here's the thing about having a newborn: what kind of WORLD are you choosing to put them in? Any smidgen of stability and security we may have had in the past just does not exist anymore where you can honestly say "everything will work itself out just fine". Not that we ever had much of it before (what with Americans simply not able to say "no" to CEO governments and Friedman economics for three decades, but that's another thread), but we truly DO not have it at ALL now.

Job? What job? Security? Sorry, not on this CEO's watch. Savings? Sorry, there's bills to pay and they're only increasing, unlike your wages. College? Mortgage? When did you ever think you would hear yourself say "What's the difference" when talking about those two entities? Yeah, tell your kid to get a master's degree or a PhD; that ain't-a gonna stop him/her from getting FIRED anyway if they cost too much or there isn't enough profit this quarter. Health care? Gee, too bad your newborn came out with/your child acquired through no fault of his own a ridiculously costly condition which we at Blue/Kaiser/AetCigMana of course will not cover. Pre-existing conditions and all . . . sucks to be you (snicker). I mean, dude. Did you think we were in the business for our HEALTH (much less your health)? Hope you have a couple hundred grand socked away somewhere . . .

Maybe if life was easier and mere survival wasn't almost completely tied to employment, then I'd consider it. But we live in America, where if you want to get ahead, you'd better be willing to COUGH UP, and I'm not just talkin' cold germs here. Sad to say, you can prep and prep and do everything right and STILL not be immune from greedy CEO bastardry. Unless you're a multi-millionaire NOT invested with Bernie Madoff, you're plain and simple not off the hook. I can't bring a kid into this world under those kinds of conditions, sorry.

[misanthrope]

104. All of the obnoxious parents I know...

...act as if they have no idea what they are condemning their "precious darlings" to in a few decades. The world is going to become a scary, scary place before too long.

[MrsMatt]

124. Parent of two here, and while I know that

the world is a scary scary place already, I guess that I have faith that people can work together to make it better. If I didn't feel that way, I never would have had children. And yes, they are my "precious darlings" - they are smart and kind and considerate.

Oh, and they are also non-judgemental.

[misanthrope]

130. "Can" and "will" are entirely different things...

...sure, it's possible humans can solve problems by working together. However, history would seem to show it won't happen on the scale needed to avert disaster. We're too short sighted, selfish and reactive.

Plus, all these problems barreling at us can be traced back to overpopulation as the root cause.

[Warren DeMontague]

154. And where, precisely, are the problems of overpopulation most severe on Planet Earth?

Countries and portions of the world. Please, be specific.

And in countries-- like in Western Europe-- that have a high degree of societal freedom from religious dogma, easily available contraception, and a relatively high standard of living... how is their overpopulation "problem" going?

[misanthrope]

173. Wow, you really think the continents are isolated?...

...You think burning forests in Asia have nothing to do with the environment in America? Or that the growth of American crops has nothing to do with the rest of the world? Or that melting ice in Antarctica means nothing anywhere else?

[Warren DeMontague]

190. What exactly is the birth rate in the USA? Western Europe?

The population problem is confined, by and large, to the third world.

What do you think will be achieved if Americans stop reproducing? It's an idiotic argument.

The truth of the matter is, in these evil, resource-depleting 'developed' countries, like the US and (even moreso) Western Europe, where the standard of living is Earth-destroyingly high, where the people have a high degree of freedom and societal independence from religious dogma, and where contraception is readily available, populations control their reproduction on their own.

With no hectoring from self-righteous anti-breeding folks, either.

So... explain something to me-- this negative birth rate you'd like to see in the United States; how would that play out, exactly? How would having a United States full of senior citizens and no one else save Antarctica, or the Rain Forest?

[mainer]

205. I shudder to think of what would happen to my mom without me

I'm happy to help her now that she's old and frail. But if she hadn't had children to help her, she'd now probably be alone and abandoned in some horrid nursing home. Elders need the love of later generations.

I don't understand this high-minded belief that one is somehow more moral if they have no children. I'm sorry, but some of the most self-centered people I know are those who have never had children. Their lives are all about ME, ME, ME! They think about where they'll go on vacation, or which restaurant they'll eat at. They snap at kids and complain about the noise they make. They want child-free apartments. They hate kids in restaurants. They think children are vermin, and their parents are worse.

Yet somehow, these moral, ethical planet-loving people who detest American kids think kids in Africa and India are wonderful.

[kiva]

246. Self-centered people will be selfish

whether they have kids or not--it's part of their personality, not their choice of parenthood/non-parenthood.

What I don't understand is why you think that people who "think about where they'll go on vacation, or which restaurant they'll eat at", or are concerned about the fate of children in Africa and India, are self-centered. How do you define parents who believe the world should revolve around their children?

[mainer]

256. It changes everything when someone else's welfare is your responsibility.

You're right, anyone -- parent or not -- can be self-centered. But having that responsibility for another human being, 24 hours a day until they're adults, is a powerful wake-up call that your life is more than just about being concerned with your own needs. There's no other experience I can think of, not marriage or pet ownership or any job under the sun, that can replicate that overwhelming change in one's life.

Not everyone is cut out for it, and they should not be parents. But I can't help admiring those who shoulder the responsibility, and do it with grace.

[pipi_k]

270. Do you really believe that having children guarantees

a pleasant old age?

Plenty of older people are left alone and neglected by their own children.


Oh, and to call childless people "selfish" because it's all about ME ME ME, how is that different from someone having kids so they can take care of ME ME ME in their old age?


Isn't that selfish?

[mainer]

299. I'm taking care of my mom. Because I'm a "family values" gal.

I guess you'd call us selfish for believing that family should help each other out. Not because we're obligated to, but because -- yes -- some parents and kids do love each other.

I didn't have kids because I expect them to take care of me. I've made plenty of money to do it myself. But knowing the kind of people my children have grown into, I trust them to be there if I needed them. You can't put a price tag on that sort of love.

[Warren DeMontague]

153. So, the OP shouldn't get shit for not having kids, but people who do are "obnoxious"?

You know what I answer when I hear that noise you're spouting? Yeah, things are fucked up. Yeah, things may get more fucked up. I was born in the shadow of the Cuban Missile Crisis and worldwide thermonuclear destruction. 10,000 years ago, the life expectancy was 30, if one was lucky. At least my kids don't have to worry about being eaten by a Sabre Toothed Tiger.

Are there problems? Yes. There are also opportunities undreamed of even a few decades ago.

There's ALWAYS going to be some argument that can be made about "how can you bring kids into this world, right now?" ALWAYS.

Know what I think is the worst thing about the world I've brought my kids into? The judgmental assholes.

[FedUpWithIt All]

180. I know what may be coming and we are enjoying life right now.

We have game nights and long talks. There are crazy, chaotic moments and peaceful, cuddle moments. We live simply and try and consume little. We grow a garden, compost and recycle. We plan for a "typical" future as well as one with limited resources and self substinence.

I have always been honest with my kids about the things i feel are important as well as the direction i believe we all are headed.

I am aware that mankind is capable of inflicting unfathomable horrors on itself. I am aware that we may see scary times before our lives are through. Right now, we are living, loving and trying to be the best people we can be. When it is all over...it is all over, just as it has always been.

[The Straight Story]

66. That's because you haven't met me yet

;)

[EFerrari]

67. My brother was constantly asked when he would get married.

Guys get it, too.

[Missy Vixen]

70. I didn't

I'm now 48. No kids, happily married for fifteen years. I don't regret our decision to not reproduce for a second.

It can be done.
Julie

p.s. I've always found that those who push me the most on our decision to remain childfree are the unhappiest with their own lives. Just sayin'.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

73. I think...

When people project their own needs upon others it is ANNOYING. It happened to me for a long time - I was NEVER... EVER going to have kids. Did not want them. I was actually afraid of what my DNA mixed with someone else's could produce... Anyway - I will be 52 tomorrow and my kids are 8 and 9. The DNA mix is just fine. :)

I changed my mind.

But I hated people telling me that I absolutely WOULD CHANGE MY MIND.

I made a decision based on several personal things but believe me, it was close. I have not for one moment regretted having my 2 children. You may or may not change your mind. It is a personal choice and it totally changes EVERYTHING. (Which is primarily why I did decide to have children - I thought the change would be positive... And it was) :)

Just for the record - I felt the same way about going through a pregnancy. It was a good experience though - It also sucked in some ways but the end result was worth the discomfort of the final 4 weeks.

It's just personal - you are still quite young and have lots of time to decide. :)

[Binka]

125. Happy Birthday Queen!

Love your new handle BTW. Aquarians Unite QOC! I will be 50 on Valentines Day and I have my 7 year old to keep me good company. I NEVER thought I would have another baby at 42 but I did and she is my SUNSHINE. Lots of work but it keeps me young. I agree it is not for everyone but Cest La Vie!

[lady raven]

75. I am one of those who changed my mind

But in my case, I think it's because I was so busy trying to live up to what I thought I SHOULD be that I didn't really know myself.

When I got older, I realized that having children was something I REALLY wanted.

But not everyone makes that choice. One of my best friends is childless by choice. She loves kids, but she LOVES doting on her neices, nephews, and friends' kids. She is very happy with her decision and I can't imagine her changing her mind.

[anonymous171]

78. All Liberals should have at least 20 children.

IMHO. We need to out breed the conservatives.

[cynatnite]

79. I produced three and one of them produced three...

I've contributed enough...thank you very much.

[misanthrope]

105. That's impossible...

...as ignorance not only lends itself to rampant propagation but also to conservatism.

[Bill McBlueState]

188. yeah,

I'm sort of annoyed that my right-wing sister-in-law and her husband are pumping out kids once every two years (and relying heavily on public assistance to pay for it) all while inculcating them with superstitious dogma.

In effect, my tax dollars are supporting their attempt to breed their way to a Republi-Christian majority.

[Scout]

82. I'm almost 50, and i never changed my mind about wanting them

none here.

i MIGHT have considered it if my husband had wanted some, but he didn't want any either (we discussed it before marriage).

[RadicalTexan]

84. I am a 29 year old woman and feel the same way, exactly.

getting older has made me want to have children LESS, against the common wisdom.

[Cabcere]

85. Excellent post.

I'll be 23 in a few days, and at this point in my life I'm definitely not thinking about having kids, even though a lot of my friends and relatives are. Of course I may change my mind in a few years, but even if I do decide I want to be a mother, it probably would be safer for me to adopt rather than give birth to biological children. (This is because of a genetic disorder that causes clotting problems, especially during pregnancy. Ironically, the same disorder makes it dangerous for me to take birth control pills, so my options are somewhat limited in that respect...but I'm getting off track.)

Even if I didn't have all the medical stuff going on, I just don't know that I'm ready to "settle down" yet. I don't even have a steady boyfriend at this point in my life, and it kind of bugs me when people suggest that I should be getting married and having kids soon, or at least thinking about it. I think this is another area where our culture can be kind of sexist - do people pressure men to get married right out of college? :shrug: I guess it's gotten a lot better over the years, but I feel like the expectation is still there.

Anyway, I guess I'm getting off topic and rambling a little bit here, but I just wanted to check in because I think this is a really good point. (Also, I wanted to say that I like the OP's new username.) ;) Peace.

[Fireweed247]

90. Adoption is a beautiful thing!

So many children need homes and it is truly a selfless act.

[ismnotwasm]

91. In retrospect,

I would never had children. I love my kids, adore my grandson-- whatever.

But If I had a time machine and given another chance? I'd be childfree by choice, because I understand choice so much better now. And I hope every woman has the opportunity to understand that it *is* a choice for those who are able to have children, and it's not necessarily the pinnacle of of women's life, nor her greatest accomplishment.

For the purposely childfree (I don't use the negative term,'childless') good for you! Enjoy your lives, feel fulfilled and don't let anybody tell you how you should feel.

One of the most impressive women I ever met was a elderly female physical chemist, a professor by choice at a community college, childfree by choice. I'll never forget a discussion we had on the special insights the childfree can develop, and how much they contribute to the world. Regrets? She had not a one.

[cherish44]

92. You may change your mind, you may not

Just be true to yourself and don't worry about what everyone thinks. I know people who breed for vanity sake only and have had more kids than they really wanted or could afford because they just had to have a boy to pass on the family name....

[Number23]

93. Honey, it will always be SOMETHING.

I was the exact same way until I was in my early 30's. Had no intention of ever having kids and marriage held no appeal for me at all. And every time I said this, there was always SOMEONE who would obnoxiously chime in with "just wait until you meet the right person!" as if the idea of a woman not getting married and churning out kids was just something they could not take.

Then, I met a 6'1, dark haired, green-eyed hunk of an Aussie and BOOM! I knew I would marry this man. And much to the shock of my family and dear friends, that's exactly what happened. Well, after I got married, then the question became "when are you having kids??!" Then after we had our daughter, it was "well, when are you having the next one??!"

There will ALWAYS be something for some folks to feel like they need to get all up in your business about. The next time someone asks why haven't you had kids, say "why would I have kids when I'm already planning for you to take care of me in my old age?" That should shut them up. :)

[Withywindle]

94. It bothers me too. Always has.

I think it might have been kind of obvious even in childhood - I always hated baby and child-type dolls. I only liked stuffed animals, Breyer horses, and dolls and action figures that were adults--Barbies, Star Wars figures, that sort of thing.

Many women tell me that a strong desire to have children kicks in at some point in life. I'm 39, and whatever this magical urge is, I've never felt so much as a twinge. I find babies mildly repellent, honestly--that's my gut emotional reaction, which I suppress to be polite to my friends who do have kids, who I am truly happy for because they wanted their children very much. (But no, I won't babysit!)

It may be "the norm" to have some kind of maternal instinct, but those of us who lack it are hardly rare or uncommon or statistically insignificant, and people who ask crass personal questions and make rude, judgmental statements like that need to step the fuck off anyway.

[shintao]

95. There goes the sexual figure

Birth kinda takes the virgin look away, the stretch becomes obvious everywhere. You will be healther and look better if you don't give into children. Even adopted ones will have a negative affect on you, less sleep, worry wrinkles, droopy eyes, no time for yourself, yuk!

[mainer]

244. Spoken like a Manhattan socialite.

Motherhood didn't spoil Angelie Jolie's figure.

[illuminaughty]

96. I always knew I didn't want children. At 53 I have no regrets.

I do wonder if it would have been different had I not been a teacher. I started assisting my dance teacher at age 11 and I have never NOT been around children.

I now have students in their mid 30's that have been with me since they were 3 and now they bring their children. It's just that I can shove them all out the door when class is over.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

97. A lot of people have kids and then change their mind about it.

Really sucks for those kids. I may one day regret my choice to be childfree, but it will be my experience alone and not something I inflict on some innocent person.

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Really? That's funny, I don't know a single person who says that.

Being a parent is fucking hard- by any yardstick- but I don't know one single one who 'regrets' having kids. I dunno, maybe that's because I don't know too many people who did it under the age of 20, perhaps...

People -with kids, without kids- should live their own lives instead of worrying about other peoples' lives-- and instead of trying to tell everyone else what to do, that's my generalized opinion on most of these matters... and absolutely I think the decision to have a kid is not something one should take lightly, and if it's not for you, kudos for figuring that out...

Still, this idea that large numbers of parents; a "lot of people", as you put it-- are running around going "Shit, I wish I hadn't done that"-- well, that's certainly not borne out by my experience.

Not even close.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

117. Oh gee well excuse me.

I didn't realize that your own experience and that of your personal circle is universally applicable. My bad. No parent in the history of the world has ever not really wanted kids. Because everyone knows that once they place that baby in your arms, you are magically transformed into a loving, mature, and responsible person.

Oh yeah. :sarcasm:


I also love how you and gollygee are so certain that people you know who regretted their kids would just come right out and tell you. "You know, I had these kids and I really wish I hadn't" is not exactly a socially acceptable thing to say.

[Warren DeMontague]

134. If no one is mentioning it, how do you know?

I'm telling you my experience; sorry if it pisses you off. I don't know what planet has "lots of" parents (your words) "later regretting it", but I don't see it. I'm sure it happens- and surely there are parents who aren't good at it or prepared-- but in my experience (and really, what else is there? What are you basing your 'universally applicable' statements on, if not YOUR experience? Hmmmm?) the vast majority of parents consider having kids to be one of the most, if not THE most, meaningful and important things in their lives.


But, hey- If it makes you happier to carry around a world in your head where all the parents you see are shambling mounds of regret over it, by all means, knock yourself out.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

137. I am not the one making universal assumptions. YOU are.

But, hey- If it makes you happier to carry around a world in your head where all the parents you see are shambling mounds of regret over it, by all means, knock yourself out.

Where - except in your febrile imagination - did I make any comment to the effect that everyone I know who is a parent regrets it? Where?

Obviously, the initial comment I made disturbed the little Disney fantasy you carry in your head about how Parenthood Is Magic And Makes Everyone Who Does It A Better Person but that's your problem not mine.

[Evoman]

148. I know some.

For some reason I don't understand, people confess shit like that to me all the time. Even people who seem happy on the surface. Must be because I don't have kids and my life rocks pretty much because of it.

[Zhade]

166. Happened to my best friend, whose mom was a heroin addict when she gave birth.

NT!

[DeschutesRiver]

284. Same here

Have heard people confessing the same since I was in my 20s. People end up telling me all sorts of things - it is a matter of how open you are perceived to be in listening, and how carefully they feel you will hold their confidences and still respect them once you know the less than socially acceptable stuff - some people never hear such things because they aren't felt to be trustworthy on that level.

Most of the people who've told me that they regretted having kids also seemed happy on the outside; I think they just found way to cope with it. It's not like you can return a kid for full store credit like a sweater, can you? I think it is cool for the most part that they sucked it up and did the right thing by not dumping the kids and running off, or continuing to live as they had before, as though the kids aren't important, like some people do. Most of the people who've confided this to me either didn't consciously plan to have one when they did, or they planned without much real reflection - or did it because it really didn't occur to them that NOT having kids is a viable choice.

When dh and I met, neither of us wanted kids, but we left it open for discussion. That was in our early 20s; we're 50/55, still have none, have no regrets, and in fact are thankful we didn't have kids. We have the necessary equipment and ability to birth 'em, but we are not parent material - it is a big responsibility. The parents I know who do it well are beyond admirable to me because it is a hard job. But I never wanted to be a parent, so no point in having kids just "cause I could." Many people in my family shouldn't have had kids either, given their inability to parent effectively, or at all. Worse, they think they are parents just because they did the sex, sperm donor and birth thingy. You recognize these kind of pseudo-parents when you see their messed up, highly dysfunctional families interacting with each other and society at large. It isn't pretty.

A lot of people "want" kids, and love them once they are here. But quite a few people who "wanted" kids had absolutely no intention of doing the long haul part well, ie being an actual "parent". The heavy lifting of being a parent forever after is what makes some of them regret having had the kids in the first place, it seems.

[shrike]

307. Me, too

It's sort of like the dirty little secret that can't share with someone else. And these aren't bad people, either, these folks who regret parenthood. They all tried hard, but if they had to do it over they'd have made different choices.
In fairness, that might also apply to one's profession, one's schooling, etc.

[MountainLaurel]

208. Ann Landers poll from the 1970s

Not scientific, but of the 10,000 responses, 70% of people said they regretted having children.

It was a simple enough letter. A young couple about to be married wrote to ask for guidance. They were undecided. They just couldn’t make up their minds whether or not to have a family.

“So many of our friends,” the letter said, “seem to resent their children. They envy us our freedom to go and come as we please. Then there’s the matter of money. They say their kids keep them broke. One couple we know had their second child in January. Last week, she had her tubes tied and he had a vasectomy—just to make sure. All this makes me wonder, Ann Landers. Is parenthood worth the trouble? Jim and I are very much in love. Our relationship is beautiful. We don’t want anything to spoil it. All around us we see couples who were so much happier before they were tied down with a family. Will you please ask your readers the question: If you had it to do over again, would you have children?”

I printed that letter and the sky fell in. The word didn’t come from Chicken Little. It came straight from the gut of young parents and old parents, from Anchorage to San Antonio. I heard from Junior Leaguers and welfare mothers. The Boston Brahmins wrote and so did the hill people of Kentucky. I had struck an unprecedented number of raw nerves. The question unleashed an incredible torrent of confessions—“things I could never tell anyone else…”

After five days of reading, counting, and sorting mail, a bleary-eyed staff of eight secretaries announced we had received over 10,000 responses, and—are you ready for this?—70 percent of those who wrote said, “No. If I had it to do over again, I would not have children.”

Twenty years of writing the Ann Landers column has made me positively shockproof. Or so I thought. But I was wrong. The results of that poll left me stunned, disturbed, and just plain flummoxed.

Could it be? Not only could it be, it is. The message came through loud and clear. Wake up and smell the coffee, Annie old girl. Your readers had blown the American Dream. Motherhood, which always rated right up there with apple pie, Old Glory and the U.S. Marines was due for a reassessment.

snipped for copyright reasons, rest of the article is available at:
http://www.happilychildfree.com/ann.htm

[Phillycat]

215. That's because you have kids.

People who regret having their kids feel much safer admitting that socially unacceptable feeling to the child-free. I know, I've been a recipient of those confessions on several occasions. I'll never forget the woman who admitted that although she loves her son, she misses her old life so much she wishes she could just run away and leave him behind...every day.

I thank god I never had a child. It looks like a fucking nightmare.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

302. It's like that old joke about Mormons

How you could take 2 Mormons on a fishing trip and your beer would be safe but if you took just one, he'd drink all your beer. I imagine it's the same dynamic at work with parents.

[Phillycat]

216. Also, what's your reaction to the Ann Landers column noted on this blog?

http://www.happilychildfree.com/ann.htm

[Phillycat]

221. Also, what do you make of this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4902216&mesg_id=4906434

[shrike]

306. I do

Then again, the folks who told me so may have been having a bad day.

They were all people with older kids: kids who'd reached adulthood or were older teenagers. One of the best mom I know says that if she'd known what she knows now, she wouldn't have had kids. Butshe also says, her boys didn't ask to be born; it was her choice to have them, and so she's giving them the best start in life she possibly can. Her kids are terrific, btw.

[gollygee]

113. A lot?

Really? Like the PP, I've never known a single person who has said that or seemed to feel that. Do people tell you this?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

118. Yes. A lot.

IMHO, one abused and/or neglected child is one too many. How many are acceptable to you?

And once again, your personal experience is NOT universally applicable. BTW, if there are people in your social circle who regret their kids, they're probably not going to go around telling everyone they know. They tend to put on a virtuous face in public and take it out on the kids in private.

[Warren DeMontague]

135. Wow. What a piece of semantic ju-jitsu THAT is.

Touchy on this?

Previous poster challenged your assertion that "a lot" of parents regret having kids, and all of a sudden previous poster supports abusing/neglecting kids. Fucking LOVELY work. :applause: :eyes:

And if you're not basing your sweeping assertion on personal experience, what the fuck ARE you basing it on? You "just know" that parents everywhere have kids and then wish they had got a dog, instead? :shrug:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

136. This is rich coming from a guy who makes a sweeping generalization based on the people he knows.

"I don't know anyone who says they regret their kids so it can't happen that much."

Are there not enough tales of abused and neglected kids in the news for you? And remember, those are just the most extreme cases. There are many, many, more mundane situations where the children aren't overtly abused but their parents communicate to them that they weren't wanted in many more subtle ways. I personally can't think of anything more brutal to a child's psyche than knowing that they are not wanted. But since you're hung up on the phrase "a lot" - what number is acceptable to you? 10%? 5%? 1%? Even if we're talking about one percent of children born in the world today, that is a number in the millions. What number constitutes not "a lot" to you?

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Again. Perhaps you should do some self-examination as to why this topic gets you so riled up.

"A lot of people have kids and then change their mind about it."

That's what you said- if that's not a "sweeping generalization", I don't know what is. Unlike you, I prefaced my statements with "in my experience". I don't know- do you have studies, data, to back up your point? Assuming it's not based on 'personal experience', that is.

Yeah, I'm sure there are "some"-- what is "a lot"? A high percentage? More than 3? Your point is so broad as to be essentially meaningless, which again makes me wonder why you made it. Why you can't simply say something like, "whether or not one has kids is an important decision, and a personal one, which others shouldn't second-guess"..

And why is it that, again, ANY challenge to your assertion (but not sweeping generalization, apparently) that, again, "A lot of people have kids and then change their mind about it." means that we 'accept' unwanted children? I seem to remember marching in a big rally in DC in 2004 where one of the themes on the placards we were carrying was 'every child a wanted child'. I stand by that. But your assertion wasn't that 'every child should be wanted', it was that apparently large numbers ("a lot") of people have kids and run around deep in regret about it, and that somehow not having kids is a morally superior position because then no one else has the decision 'inflicted' on them.

See, I call bullshit. I call bullshit on judging people for not having kids, and I call bullshit on the people- and sometimes it seems like there are "a lot" of them here- who judge people who DO have kids.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

144. Perhaps you should do the same self examination and keep your dimestore psychoanalysis offa me

Really dude, I'd say you're getting pretty exercised by this exchange so you don't have room to be clucking your tongue over my emotional state.

But your assertion wasn't that 'every child should be wanted', it was that apparently large numbers ("a lot") of people have kids and run around deep in regret about it, and that somehow not having kids is a morally superior position because then no one else has the decision 'inflicted' on them.

Now you're just flat out lying about what I said. I did NOT say, categorically, that not having children is morally superior to having them. My initial comment was in response to the "you'll change your mind" line that the everyone-should-have-babies crowd lays on those of us who don't want to. It is better to NOT have children and later regret it than to HAVE them and later regret it.

[Warren DeMontague]

146. "It is better to NOT have children and later regret it than to HAVE them and later regret it. "

Now, see, that statement I agree with. I don't, personally, know anyone to whom that statement would apply, but I agree with the philosophical point.

If there really is an "everyone-should-have-babies" crowd, they should fuck the hell off. I've got kids, but why the hell would I care if you do or don't? Your business, not mine.

My larger philosophical point is that way too many people of ALL ideological stripes spend far too much time worrying about how their neighbors choose to live their lives. It's a full blown epidemic on this planet, one that seems to afflict "a lot" of people.

[RadicalTexan]

126. I've had a couple of other women tell me this

including my boss, who tells me often that she is jealous of the way my time is my own, and - while she loves them and is glad she has them in that sense - if she had it to do over again, she wouldn't have kids. I think that's brave. Mothers are supposed to be martyrs in our society, and it's nice when a few of them refuse to be. I find it all somewhat pathological, personally.

[gollygee]

129. I believe "a couple"

I'd believe "some" too. I'm a bit skeptical of "a lot".

[mrreowwr_kittty]

138. If it's one percent of the children born in the world that is millions of people.

I consider that to be "a lot". And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the percentage is higher than that.

[Phillycat]

217. What do you make of this Ann Landers column?

http://www.happilychildfree.com/ann.htm

[Phillycat]

222. Also, what do you make of this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4902216&mesg_id=4906434

[pipi_k]

263. May I just say...

that had circumstances been just a little different in my life, I probably would not have had children.

Don't get me wrong...I love my kids to pieces.

But if I had never had them, I wouldn't have screwed with a couple of innocent lives without really intending to. But I was very young, and it was all I knew at the time. I regret some of my actions every day of my life. :(



So to the people who say that your statement is untrue or impossible, I say that yes, there are people who know they should never have been parents.

Not because of the kids themselves, but because, like myself, they recognize that they weren't suited for the job.


PS...although I do take comfort in the fact that I must have done something right, as they are both better parents to their kids than I was to them.

[misanthrope]

100. Sometimes "being a good parent" is not being a parent at all**nm

**

[Warren DeMontague]

101. Point blank? People should worry about living their own lives instead of other peoples'.

That goes for people who want to tell you that you'll want kids, eventually (even if they're right-- who the fuck cares?) and that ALSO goes for the self-righteous members of the "childfree" who take every opportunity they can to spat condescendingly at "breeders". That goes for Vegans who want other people to stop eating meat and it goes for meat eaters who get excessively concerned about what is on the forks of people who don't eat meat. That goes for people who don't like porn, abortion, contraception, gay sex or any other form of consenting sex between adults. That goes for the groups who would tell others what to think, how to worship, what and what not to eat, drink, smoke, etc. in the privacy of their own homes, or what to do with their bodies.

Like the song says:

Mind your own bid'ness, because if you mind your own bid'ness, you won't be mindin' mine.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

141. Ah, I just realized what your former user name is.

Look, I know that I've been in this argument with you before. We've gone round and round on this. You expect everyone to kiss your butt because you procreated and people like me ain't gonna do it. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. But please note that the OP is NOT about YOU. The young woman in the OP has expressed her intention not have children (for the near future anyway) and nosy busybodies are second-guessing her. This is what we "self-righteous members of the childfree" get to experience on a regular basis. Sometimes we grouse about it on internet message boards because they are one of few forums available to us to do so. This causes some parents (like you) to become unglued because there simply cannot exist a corner of the Earth where you are not lavished with praise for doing The Toughest Job In The World(tm).

BTW, ya know, for a guy who is such a proponent of free speech, you sure don't take any kind of criticism very well.

[Warren DeMontague]

147. "You expect everyone to kiss your butt because you procreated and people like me ain't gonna do it."

I do? That's a fucking riot. :rofl:

I 'expect everyone to kiss (my) butt because I procreated?'

That's the absolute most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. Got a link? To, you know, me expecting 'everyone to kiss my butt because I procreated'.

Yeah. Link, please.

I also note you ignore the main point of my post, which is NOT that people should 'kiss my butt because I procreated', but rather that people should live their own lives and mind their own business. Too 'sweeping' for you?

[Zhade]

164. Sometimes -- like with our current population explosion -- your business affects our business.

It's the height of arrogant selfishness to not at least acknowledge that fact.

[Warren DeMontague]

197. Please explain, in detail, exactly what "population explosion" is taking place in the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate

According to the United Nations in 2006, the fertility rate in the USA was 2.05 children per woman. Given that not all children make it to adulthood, and clearly not all children will want to reproduce, 2.05 children is barely a replacement rate for the current population, if not an indicator of outright population shrinkage. This is reflected all across the 'developed' Western World.

Or maybe the "arrogant selfishness" remark is intended for someone in Niger, or Guinea-Bissau?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

229. Could you be a little more racist? I mean, really. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

271. So the truth is racist?

Like I said. The United Nations in 2006 said that the US Birth Rate was 2.05 children per woman. Is the United Nations racist?

Please explain how reducing the birth rate in the USA further; below 2.05 children per woman-- is going to help the population problem in Niger?

Yeah. In detail. An explanation, please.


Again, I'm not pulling Niger out of my ass, it's got the highest birth rate. Again, I must mention it because I'm "racist". :eyes:

Because the truth is, the USA may have many problems, but a "population explosion" isn't one of them. Oh, I know, it just feels so good to bitch and moan and piss about 'entitled yuppies spawning' and 'popping out litters'.

Like I said. Don't let the FACTS get in the way of a good 15 minute hate.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

300. The population of the world is INCREASING

We talk about different 'races' but in reality there is one race. The human race. The so-called problem of "shrinking birth rates" among certain groups of people is based on nothing but chauvinism and xenophobia. There is NO group of people so special and indispensible that steps must be taken to ensure more of them are born. That's ridiculous. A developed country with a "shrinking population" will generally also have too-restrictive immigration policies. Japan is a perfect example. I should note that I am not a proponent of immigration for the purpose of wage suppression but I do think it's a valid option in the event of a true shortage of labor.

I also don't buy these arguments that there won't be enough workers if the birthrate drops. The situation we have now is a worldwide glut of labor. Which is why the majority of the world slaves for pennies a day. There aren't nearly enough decent jobs for the people we have now and the number will continue to diminish with increased automation and technology. I'm sorry to tell you this, but if the current trends hold your children are going to facing a very tough job market and severely reduced standard of living. Yeah, I guess that doesn't make me a blast at parties but it's the truth.

And no, I'm not worried about who will take care of all the old people if the birthrate goes negative (as it should). The way the pronatalists talk, you'd think every old person requires their own personal attendant or nurse. They don't. With a smaller workforce, the people who care for the elderly would be paid a lot better.

So there's your answer. The problem is too many people on the planet. Not too many Nigerians, but just enough Americans, and too few Japanese. Too many people. Period.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

225. I refer you back the OP

Obviously, people aren't willing to "live and let live" where the decision to not procreate is concerned.

[Chovexani]

107. I agree 100%

And it's a damn shame that yet again, a DU post on women's issues manages to get at least half my bingo card filled up in responses.

I need to start linking that Feminism 101 blog in my sig again.

[Le Taz Hot]

108. I've always felt like you do now.

I'm 53 and never did change my mind. You might or might not change your mind. Whether or not to become a parent is THE most important decision you will ever make. Others cannot possibly make that determination for you. And may I just say, as I watch young people around here start popping out babies at 15 and 16 years old, I applaud you for actually THINKING about the consequences first as opposed to popping out kids and THEN deciding that maybe having a baby at 15 wasn't such a good idea after all.

[AsahinaKimi]

111. I'm with you..

I'm not sure I want any when adopting would probably be better.
Probably less painful as well.

[ejpoeta]

112. there is nothing wrong with not wanting to have kids. that's the idea of CHOICE.

you should be able to choose if and when you have kids. you may change your mind when you get older, but I may change my mind about wanting a certain stove in my kitchen someday. though, the stove wouldn't require so much money for upkeep. LOL! don't worry about what other people think. I think the biggest thing is that women are apparently open for any and all suggestions. like people who think a pregnant woman's belly is public property. or people who think that you are just DYING for parenting advice from them. I hear you. I think the greatest show of confidence in a woman is to choose when and if she is ready to have kids. regardless of what anyone else may say. and if you never want kids, then I will applaud you for not being bullied or guilted into something you don't want. and the kids you will or won't have will thank you as well.

[Zhade]

145. What about social responsibility? It's selfish and irresponsible to reproduce too much.

Especially in America, where we consume 5x the resources of the developing world.

[Warren DeMontague]

152. Oh, god, not this shit again. What is "too much"?

Usually I agree with you; but come on. Some people drive big cars. Some people eat meat. A lot of people make personal choices that impact the environment in various ways.

So again- in the United States of America, what is "too much" reproduction? What is our birthrate, compared, again, with the "developing world"? How about Europe, where the birthrate is negative.. And I always wonder what, exactly, people who make this argument want us to do-- seriously, now-- are we supposed to stop reproducing entirely, so the "developing world", where birth rates are astronomical, can come in and take care of us when we're elderly? Then, presumably, after us Sinful Westerners are all dead, they will dismantle our environmentally destructive infrastructure and move into environmentally friendly yurts with their many kids. Right?

And what is the "developing world" going to do when it is "developed"? How come no one ever seems to want to make the argument that the "developing world" is irresponsible with its exploding populations? Oh, yeah, that wouldn't be politically correct. But hectoring bad, evil Americans who reproduce at an almost flat, certainly sustainable rate, is okay.

Yeah. So we consume 5X the resources of the developing world. Which means we should:

A) find more sustainable ways of powering our shit or

B) All stop having kids, and die.

Feh.

[Zhade]

167. While I may not have the answer, it'd be nice to have the conversation more often.

And by that, I mean IRL, not online. It's a rare topic out there in the real world.

Personally, I think the "two kids to replace the parents" argument is good, but it's based on feeling, not hard facts or anything. I just see having more than that as indulgent, and it's often argued as a matter of free choice by people who ALSO drive SUVs and make other short-sighted choices (which will affect everyone negatively).

As far as the developing world, I think Obama just made a positive step toward reducing their population explosion by getting rid of the insane "Mexico City" aid rule.

(I like your "A" choice, for what it's worth.)

[Warren DeMontague]

195. I know a lot of people with one. Knowing how much work 2 is, I don't think more than that

is 'indulgent'.. Masochistic, maybe.

I just tend to think people should live their own lives and generally things will shake out well... This is borne out with population, where, as I noted upthread, in 'developed' nations like the US and (even more) Western Europe, yes, people use more resources, but where there is a high degree of freedom (particularly from religious oppression), a high std. of living and easy access to birth control, people limit their population on their own.

People- worldwide- need to be empowered to make their own decisions and flourish with them. That means available contraception and calling bullshit on the 'authorities' (i.e. the Pope) who rail against non-procreative fucking. I don't think that, all things being equal, there is a desire in most people to have a whole shitload of kids. Most people I know would rather have one or two and do it right. But, again, who am I to judge?

And, while we're at it, I know people who have SUVs and drive them maybe 2000 miles a year, and I've also known people who drive beat up old Nissan Sentras with emissions problems, and put 50K a year on them, doing shit like donuts in parking lots or joyriding. I think judging people based on superficial spot impressions, like the car or number of kids, is overly facile.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

219. Oh my.

Warren, it's only a "negative birthrate" if you believe that certain people are outbreeding more superior types of people. That would put you in the category of John Gibson, who admonished his Faux News audience that white people need to make more babies. I don't think you want to be in that category so you might want to rethink this whole line of argument you are pursuing.

I mean, why do you have a problem with people from the "developing world" taking care of you when you're elderly?

[ejpoeta]

158. i try not to be judgemental, but that duggar family!!! they drive me crazy!!!

For some reason they just irk me. like they are a puppy mill and just keep churning the kids out. there has to be a cost to the health of the mother having 18 kids. and the older ones end up watching the younger ones. i don't know. i mean, I struggle with it because we all have a right to make that choice for ourselves. but to me the duggars is like every time i see a Hummer driving around and get so mad!!! like someone is encroaching on my space or something. I mean... great. you are fertile. but there are how many kids out there in foster homes that no one is adopting!!! i feel like i am being a jerk. who the hell am i to get so upset about this family.

we have two girls. emily... she just turned 10. she was a pleasant surprise. well, it didn't seem so pleasant when at 26 I found out that I am not as educated as I thought I was in family planning areas. LOL! but, I wouldn't change it for the world. Ashley, she was definitely a planned event. We were in a stable place and were prepared (as prepared as anyone can be). but I think it would be selfish to purposely have more. Two is plenty. And we are so blessed to have been able to have those two. but how many kids are sitting in foster care right now who NO ONE WANTS!!!

ok. i am done now. LOL!

[athena]

116. I'm 33 and still feel the same way.

I decided at 15 that I did not want to have children, and I've never changed my mind. I don't particularly like children, and the thought of having a human being take over my body for nine months does not appeal to me in the least. I'm convinced that most people have children because "it's what one does", not because they really want to devote the rest of their lives to raising and supporting their children.

Don't listen to those condescending know-it-alls who smugly tell you, as if they knew you better than you know yourself, that you will change your mind. How would they like to be told by everyone around them that they will one day change their mind and come to regret having children?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

119. They don't care for it at all. Look at the responses I got to post #97

Some people simply can't comprehend that people can have children and then regret them.

[Vinca]

121. My husband and I have been married 35 years and we haven't

regretted our decision not to have kids for one second. As for people who have kids regretting that decision, over the years I've had a number of people tell me they envied my childless life. From the outside looking in, it seems children put an unbearable amount of strain on some couples. Each to his own, I guess.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

122. True. Too bad it's still taboo to even discuss it.

People still act as though being a parent is something everyone should do.

[kiva]

123. This is one of the secrets that is rarely talked about.

Several of my friends/family (female) have told me a version of "I love my children more than anything, but if I had it to do over again I wouldn't have had children." It sounds contradictory, but many of them who have struggled through teenagers, adult children who still need help, and grandchildren parked at their doors have wondered what they have missed by spending the bulk of their lives being responsible mothers.

I don't have children, and haven't regretted it--that said, I think we all have a tendency to wonder about that road not taken.

[LWolf]

127. And worse is the assumption that all women SHOULD want to.

I have 2 grown sons. I love them dearly. I DID want to have them.

When I, at the age of 28, went to my doctor to set up a tubal ligation procedure, way back in 1988, it took me a month to get him to agree to set up the appointment and do the procedure.

He argued with me. He told me that I was too young, that I might want more children in the future.

I argued back, and stayed persistent. I didn't go to another doctor, because he was the only local doctor approved by my HMO. I spoke to the HMO. I wrote a formal statement claiming control of my body and reproductive systems, and requiring him to schedule the procedure, and cc'd it to the HMO. And was granted the appointment, and the procedure.

At the time, I was incensed. One of the things I said to him, both verbally and in writing, was this: "Why would I want more children? There's nothing wrong with the two I have. You aren't suggesting that they are somehow not good enough, are you?"

It was the same response I'd been giving friends and family, who were also horrified.

For the record, I never regretted it, even for a nanosecond.

If it was that hard to achieve permanent sterilization when I already had kids, it is worse to not want them at all. Somehow alien and "wrong" to not want children.

I'd suggest that it is our culture that is dysfunctional, not those who choose different adult paths than species breeders.

[Mr Rabble]

131. As a man, I hear that garbage all the time-

"you will want kids someday"
"you will want kids when you find the right person"
"you will want kids when (insert arbitrary reason)"

Im 37 and dont want kids. In fact, I want no part of it.

I have a ton of things going on that I really enjoy, and I know that most of them would come to a grinding halt were I to have a child.

6 billion people on this rock, the majority of them living in squalor. I am not going to add to the misery.

[misanthrope]

174. Closing in on 7 billion (6.75) as we speak**nm

**

[Warren DeMontague]

196. *

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate

[rucky]

133. It's a popular topic of conversation.

And I don't think anybody cares about the answer to the "are/when/how many kids..." questions. They're just making small talk. If you go off script and say you don't want kids, then the pat answer is "you will".

It's like when you see someone and they ask you "how ya doin'?" and instead of saying "fine" you go on about your bursitis and personal finances and the person who asked didn't really want to hear an honest answer.

They don't mean anything by it, and I wouldn't read too much into the conversation.

[gkhouston]

142. Actually, married couples get hounded about this, too. The husband of a friend

of mine got sick of the "You've been married X years? So when are you going to have kids?" question and once replied, "We had kids. The state took them." Shut that nosy jerk right up.

Maybe you'll have a child of your own someday, maybe you won't. The important thing is not to have them unless you want them. I've seen too many kids that appear to have been conceived on autopilot and their parents don't give a damn about them.

[misanthrope]

182. Most every child is conceived on autopilot...

...Nature has seen to it. People keep getting pregnant chiefly because sex feels good.

[Cleita]

143. Actually, it bothers a lot of women who don't want to have children. They

should not be forced to do so. Why would anyone want a woman to give birth and care for a child she doesn't want? That seems to me to not be very good for the child. Maybe this is how you create a psychopath from the bottom up.

[all.of.me]

149. A little tip.

Don't wait that long. I had my kids at 36 and 40, and I am wiped out. With menopause, I just want to curl up and read and be alone, but they are now almost 15 and 19. Don't wait that long. Enjoy your 50s not raising children.

And I'll add that I was one that changed my mind. That's why I had them so late. I didn't want kids, then found good dad material. But after the first one was born, it turned out he had very different aspirations for them than I did. Long story, but we stayed together almost 10 years. I couldn't deal with the oppression anymore.

I'll also say that I have grown in ways I never could have grown without children. I'm realizing that now, sort of in retrospect. One has gone away to college, the other is in boarding school, so I have time to breathe. Those kids have taught me a lot of things I never could have learned anywhere else. I can't imagine who I'd be if I hadn't had kids. I'd be pretty self-centered, I think. They make you put yourself on the back burner and give of yourself over and over. It's very humbling.

But I agree. To each his/her own.

[pipi_k]

171. Bless your heart, I don't know how you did it....

I had my kids when I was young.

I had more energy then, but was very inexperienced and made LOTS of mistakes, much to my everlasting sorrow... :(


I'm older now and probably better able (psychologically) to handle kids, but geez...how to keep up with them?

I can't even have one grandkid over at a time now without being totally exhausted at the end of the day.

[all.of.me]

176. Thanks.

It is a blessing that they are both away at school. Being a single parent for so long, I was exhausted. I was tired of parenting, so this boarding school opportunity was heaven-sent. When I thought about having to do four more years of bus schedules, packing lunches, jumping out of bed at 6 AM... I freaked out. Really. I was worried about my mental health. This has saved my sanity and probably that of the girls, too. I think we have all benefitted by being separated. We like each other more now.

Rest assured, I made my share of mistakes, too! We do our best and send them out into the world to ultimately deal with what they've gotten, just like we had to do. No kid has no issues, but we can only do so much.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

212. Hoo boy.

So many bingos in that statement, I don't even know where to start:

"Don't wait too long..."

Are you honestly suggesting that someone who doesn't want kids should have them anyway because they might change their mind later? Oh and I'm sorry you're so tired chasing after those teenagers. Since I don't have any I'll be able to curl up and read in my menopausal years. BTW, have you considered that if you'd had the kids when they were younger that you might be dealing with having to raise the grandkids they dumped on you? It's a very common occurence.

I didn't want kids, then found good dad material...

Seems like you DID want kids, at least on some level, but were waiting for the "good dad material" to come along. I've dated several men who would make, and have gone on to make, wonderful fathers. They never caused me to waver in my decision not to procreate.

I'll also say that I have grown in ways I never could have grown without children.

I've also managed to grow and evolve, despite not having children. Believe it or not, people who don't have children aren't necessarily frozen in a state of perpetual adolescence.

Those kids have taught me a lot of things I never could have learned anywhere else.

How can you be certain of that? And assuming that you have learned things by being a mother that you couldn't otherwise, I can just as easily assert that I've learned and experienced things that I never would have had I had the responsibility of children.

I can't imagine who I'd be if I hadn't had kids. I'd be pretty self-centered, I think. They make you put yourself on the back burner and give of yourself over and over. It's very humbling.

When you say "I'd be pretty self-centered" are you speaking strictly for yourself, or is this your general opinion of non-parents? And it's funny, but in my observation people who are self-centered aren't generally transformed into altruists by the act of having children. Sure didn't make people like Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony stop being self-centered, did it?

[Qanisqineq]

157. I'm 35 and no kids

I've had moments where I thought, "maybe I should have one so I don't regret it later" or moments where I actually want a child. Those moments don't last long because every time I actually thought about getting pregnant it changed my mind. I'm married and doubt that I'll ever have kids and it doesn't really bother me.

[Mike 03]

159. I'll bet that nobody believes that anymore. My ex GF died of pancreatic cancer at a ridiculously

young age. She never wanted children. And she never said otherwise. And nobody gave a damn whether she did or didn't.

Honestly, who gives a shit?

This isn't the age of Virginia Woolfe. This is 2009.

[Raine]

160. I'm 58 went back & forth...didn't have them

I know I did the right thing because of certain genes in the family.

[Skittles]

161. I never felt the need to reproduce

and I am fine with it

[Mari333]

169. heres a fun story from my past

After the birth of my third child, I went to a physician for a checkup. He asked me if I planned to have any more children, and I told him no.
Then he said "You wont be having any more children so I suggest a complete hysterectomy."
(this was 1983)..I looked at him incredulously..he had to be kidding...
But he was not kidding.
So, I asked HIM..."Do YOU plan to have any more children?"
He looked at me and said "No."
"Then I suggest you have your prostate gland and testicles removed", I told him.
and smiled.
he didnt smile back.





p.s. yes, not all women want children and thats fine and should be respected.

[pipi_k]

170. I have quite a few friends who are childless also, and

they like it that way, and I respect and admire them for their choice.


I also have a sister who was never able to have children. Which is fortunate for any would-be children she might have had. So instead of kids, she has gotten pets. Chihuahuas, to be exact. One of them she "loved" so much she left it with an ex husband so she could move out and be with some other guy.

Then she got two more at some point. She let them chew things up and shit all over the house because she was too damned lazy to bring them out for walks. She and her present husband are alcoholics, and he, at least, is a cocaine addict. I'd be surprised if the poor dogs weren't psycho by now.

Some people should NEVER have children...she's one of them, and thank whatever Powers That Be that she was never able to fuck up the life of a defenseless kid just because she has a uterus and feels it's her right to populate the world with her own DNA.

[Kat45]

175. People used to tell me that too.

Well, I'm 53 and I never changed my mind.

[Phillycat]

177. Everyone I know who has children is miserable.

Of course, they're all little kids, so I guess maybe it gets easier later. Doesn't matter to me, I had my tubes tied when I was 29. I won't ever have children and I'm incredibly grateful for that. It looks like a fucking nightmare. :scared:

EDITED TO ADD: I've known since I was 18 I didn't want children. I'm now 36 and I still don't.

[mainer]

206. It does get easier later. And later, it becomes utterly wonderful.

Count me as a parent who adores her kids. They're adults now, and such good and decent human beings. (My younger son was one of the first to work for the Obama campaign -- before most people even knew who Obama was.) I know it sounds corny and sentimental, but in so many ways, I feel that my children taught me the meaning of life.

[Phillycat]

213. Oh, lord.

:eyes:

[mainer]

245. If you haven't experienced it, you don't know.

I've never experienced dog ownership. But the dog owners I know adore their dogs and think the world of them. I would never presume to ridicule them.

[Phillycat]

278. Honestly, what reaction did you expect to get from me?

My post was about how unappealing and miserable childrearing looks to me, and you reply to me with a post about how much you loved being a parent. Talk about not knowing your audience. :eyes:

[mainer]

298. I responded because you only saw the miserableness of kids.

And all you heard form your friends is how miserable they are being parents. Isn't it good, sometimes, to hear a dissenting view? I'm not saying your friends aren't miserable. I'm just saying that it isn't the same for everyone.

[shrike]

305. The parents I know who are miserable have adult kids

When the kids were little, they were a joy: so cute. Then they became teen-agers, and young adults . . .

Though I suppose one's happiness or unhappiness probably depends on how the kids turn out. The mom I know whose kids are hard-working, generous human beings says "I don't know what I'd do without my kids." They're her happiness.

However, I've had more than a few people tell me that if they had to do it over again, they wouldn't have kids. Probably because I'm childless myself; they feel safe telling me these things.

And btw, there are many reasons why adult kids "turn out" the way they do. If your kid is a slug, it't not necessarily all your fault.

[AZBlue]

179. Almost 43, no kids, never wanted them.

I love children - but never wanted any of my own and certainly never, ever wanted to give birth! If in the next 5 years or so I change my mind, I will adopt, but at this point that's probably not very likely.

[stuntcat]

199. yep

They're making me wait and wait and then jump through hoops crying to finally get my tubes tied. Nooooo, but they think it's just fine for me to take the Pill every single day for like 40 years, that's normal and okay :eyes:

I would kill myself before I had a baby.. no joke, I'd do ANYTHING before I gave an innocent little kid the rest of this century.

The baby-pressure from my inlaws makes me ashamed of even knowing them.

[juno jones]

237. What worked for me was threatening to doctor shop

until I found someone.

See #236 above for my story.

Good luck. I think more women know their own minds than docs are willing to give credit for.

PS: I laugh in the face of the pill. My children were concieved while I was using birth control. They point to the pill as a sure-fire panacea, but it isn't.

[stuntcat]

239. thank you!

I feel so alone in this.. and I vent online. DU'ers have helped me by listening :hug:
My doctor's starting to come around, now I just have to figure out how to schedule the operation (I'm kinda mental) and get myself to it (I can't drive)

[Matariki]

200. I have rarely encountered that for some reason - and I had my tubes tied at 21

I've been told that it's unusual for a doctor to be willing to do a tubal ligation at such an early age.

I think I give the impression that I would EAT children. Or at least lose them on a bus. :evilgrin:

[TWiley]

201. That's funny, I thought they only wanted sex with me.

[Vektor]

207. I agree. I don't want to have children either.

And as I get older, I just become more certain of it.

[BirminghamExaminer]

226. I have children

I have two grown children. I support your right to choose not to have children.

[Blue Dog Dominion]

230. Anytime "all" is used in an assumption, its usually false. n/t

[sce56]

234. Well it could also be like my Ex she wanted to have the kids but when she met me she left her first

ones with her ex then when she dumped me guess who is stuck raising the children all by himself! I will not do this again not only is it unfair to the kids having one parent bail on them it is also unfair to the parent who has to do everything of course my ex also tells the kids come live with me and I'll take better care of you than Dad does! Just to get them twisted up in knots! Sorry I just had to let that out the whole child thing has me spoofed second divorce for me and second time being mr mom and dad at least this time I'm not in the Army and having to raise them by myself and worry about the deployments like I did when I was a single parent having to chase after hurricanes and Typhoons. I will not have more kids fixed that after the last one! But it sure is fun making them ;-)

[saracat]

235. I agree. I NEVER wanted children . I never even liked baby dolls.

I found both infants and pregnancy disgusting. I had a hysterectomy for medical reasons and didn't feel any remorse. I have been married 24 years and don't regret a thing.And I was told I would "regret it when I was older as well. Nope! I was also told I would never "mature" unless I had a child, and some even today say I am not a "whole person". It is sexist. No one ever nagged or judged my husband. The worst or those who pity you and say with assurance, how "sorry" they are that we "couldn't" have kids, making very rude to reply that we didn't want them!

Now we say that we have the cats and are grateful that we don't have to send them to college!

[Xicano]

238. Kids? Nope Not Me and I am 43.

I love my independents too much, and even if I did want kids I don't think I'd want to bring them into this world.

[mainer]

243. I'm glad people who don't want them don't have them

It's a good choice for you, since apparently children are such horrible and selfish creatures to you.

But consider Obama's election, and all those young college students who came out in support of him and were instrumental in getting him elected. I look at their enthusiastic and hopeful faces, and I see the gift that the next generation can give us. If no one had given birth to those college students 18 years ago, where would we be?

[gkhouston]

247. Babies *are* selfish creatures. How in the hell else can they survive?

Children have to be taught to think about other people's needs. Some kids pick this up pretty quickly. Others become Republicans. }(

No one has an obligation to reproduce in the hopes of providing "gifts" to the future. What a damned stupid implication. It is far more responsible to not become a parent than it is to give birth and be a bad parent to an unwanted child.

[pipi_k]

250. Obligation to reproduce...makes me think of

a friend who, last time I saw her, was outraged at one of her sons.

She (and her husband) are religious quacks Conservatives...abortion is "murder", blah blah blah.

Well, it seems her youngest son had the GALL to pay for an abortion for his girlfriend, thereby depriving her of a grandchild

Honest to god, that's what she said!!!!


You know, when someone says something so outrageous and you just sit there with your mouth open because you don't know what to say?

I was speechless.

I've known this couple for nearly 20 years. I know how nutty they can be. But this one really took the cake. She doesn't even realize how selfish that whole diatribe was...the kid and his girlfriend...they would be the ones to have the expense of raising a kid. Have to stay up nights, clean up messes, nurse the kid through sickness and injury.

What the fuck does a grandparent do but spoil a child - unless said grandparent ends up taking the child in because the parents won't raise it themselves, which would be out of the question here because this couple have given up quite a few pets because they were "too much trouble".


Honestly, sometimes I worry about my own sanity, but then I take a look at shit like that and KNOW I'm not crazy.

I agree with you. Nobody should feel obligated to reproduce.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

251. Oh brother.

:eyes: Nice martyr act. :nopity:

[lukasahero]

267. You know, this is why those of us who chose not to have them

get a little pissy with the folks that talk down to us about our choice. Has it ever occurred to you that not every single person who doesn't want/have children doesn't actually despise them?

FU.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

269. The way they freak out over a few comments on the internet

It's clear that many parents are accustomed to, and have grown to expect, nothing but praise and asskissing for the fact that they have reproduced.

Oh, and the accusation that I "hate children" is getting really old. I have yet to say a single unkind thing about children on DU but that card is nearly always played on me by some offended parent. Clearly, some people identify themselves so thoroughly through their children that are unable to separate themselves.

[RFKJrNews]

259. Childless by choice and proud of it!

Just what I always wanted...to bring another human being into this already overpopulated world, and most likely wind up a single mother struggling to put food on the table when the economy collapses and my "baby daddy" decides it's time to split so he can go "find himself" during his mid-life crisis....

Nope, never fell into that "must have children because I'm a woman" trap, thank goodness.

haven't had unprotected sex since I was in college. There's a good reason for that. And I'm not just talkin' `bout pregnancy!

The pill does not prevent STD's. Don't want one. (Thanks for offering anyway, ex-boyfriend!)

[CrispyQ]

264. I have a bumper sticker that reads:

Six Billion Miracles is Enough

We're approaching 7 billion.

[Phillycat]

280. I have one that says

"If I wanted to hear the pitter-patter of little feet, I'd put shoes on my dog." :D

[MedleyMisty]

265. My husband and I don't want kids

Once we were volunteering with the cat rescue group at Petsmart and this dude was there and lectured us for like an hour on kids and how we'd change our minds.

Generally people don't bother us too much, though. My great aunt, who I think got married at 14, asked where our kids were when I said I'd been married for six years. I said we had cats and she didn't say anything else.

My mother drops little hints, but nothing too pressing. And well - she's the person who taught me to make my own choices and do whatever the hell I want to do and she's the main reason that I am mostly unaware of social pressure to conform now, so yeah. Plus, she's the one who ripped the article on birth control from Reader's Digest and gave it to me with notes and underlined bits when I was 13.

Usually people ask, I say that we have cats instead, and they laugh and say that's a good choice.

But then again, I don't know - my 15 year old sister-in-law is living with us and my husband, her oldest sibling, has shared legal guardianship of her along with her oldest sister (my husband is the oldest of five). I do treat her pretty much the same way my mother treated me, but she's 15 and so pretty much able to take care of herself anyway. Their mother died shortly before I met my husband and their father is crazy and most of them don't like him. She's living with us because he let his house go to the point where it's unlivable and he's on a downward spiral and it just isn't good for people to live with him right now.

My half-brother got a girlfriend pregnant once. His daughter is actually the same age as my sister-in-law. And she has four younger half-siblings, all by different men. Some of the fathers are in jail for life. Oh, and my mother called the other day and said that my brother's ex-girlfriend is pregnant again. Her mother, who is religiously insane, is raising the kids. Apparently my niece has been in the mental hospital but we don't know why.

My other half-brother got married to someone who I think just wanted kids and married my brother because he was willing to father them. They have four kids now. I don't know - it's what his wife wanted and I guess she's happy, but having sat in the living room crying while that brother waved a pistol around I do worry about those kids.

My half-sister, who I don't know very well because she graduated from high school the summer before I was born, had kids. Then she got divorced and her husband got custody.

So I guess that I really don't have any examples of reproduction around me that make me think that having kids is a good idea.

[AndrewP]

266. People should make intelligent decisions

If they want and can afford children, they should have as many as they want and can afford.

I do roll my eyes when someone who is talking about how much their marriage sucks or how they don't have any money decide to procreate some more. Nothing I can do about that though. Free country.

I personally enjoy doing my own thing too much to want some brat running around me. But that's just my choice.

[JackDragna]

268. If there's one dark cloud in what you're saying..

..it's that people like you are the type who should be fostering the next generation. Progressive, better-educated people always seem to have fewer children than their counterparts. :) I completely support your decision, however. I'm in the same boat.

[ihatehannity]

272. well...

I'm pretty sure most women do want children, so that isn't really a far-fetched assumption.

plus, unless you are in your teens or early twenties... people should just keep it to themselves, otherwise, just take it in, who cares.

[Phillycat]

282. There are dozens of women right here on this thread who don't want children.

So you being "pretty sure" doesn't hold much weight. :eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

286. Yay for heteronormativity! nt

[vinylsolution]

287. Reducing the birth rate is a top priority for every nation.

[flvegan]

292. This thread...wow.

Perfectly reasonable OP, too.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

294. I feel like starting one about circumcision.

Just because.

[flvegan]

296. Indeed.

There was one around here earlier. You could have exercised your obsession in that one, I suppose.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

297. "Obsession"

Well, at least you're not suggesting I'm mentally ill. :eyes:

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

301. I'm not sure who has these assumptions...

but maybe you just need to move on and not worry so much about other people think. You'll probably be a lot happier. Oh wait.. bad on me for making the "assumption" that you are unhappy about these assumptions. Let me beat myself for that one so you don't have to. :banghead: :)

I suspect you may have just posted this to re-ignite the old "child-free" vs "breeders" flame war for kicks. Whatever floats your boat, I guess...