So you are happy when foreign guestworkers get their visas terminated?

[Smith_3]

Fine. Then please stop buying foreign products too. If you want computers, clothes, cigars or wine, make them yourself. And while you're at it, stop travelling to other countries. Since you want other people to stay where they are, you better stay where the hell you are too. You're fine with the visas of all Americans living abroad being terminated then too, I suppose. And most of all, stop importing resources from other countries. Since you seem to have no need of anything foreign, you may want to consider powering your american made cars without other peoples oil. Please build a wall around the country and work your own shitty underpaid jobs. And by the way, if you happen to have ancestors who are not natives, you might want to start packing your bags, because you're not fucking welcome anymore either.

edit: and by the way, I guess you don't have a problem then if other countries stop trading in US dollars and start using their own currency. And if they stop consuming american products and watching mtv and hollywood films. I guess you are prepared to deal with the decline in the relative wealth which you still are experiencing.

[treestar]

1. You really summed it up!

As the corporate fatcats say, they can get half the workers to kill the other half. Now they're doing it on a global scale.

[Skittles]

2. BELIEVE ME I WOULD IF I FUCKING COULD

[Mari333]

21. what skittles said! nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

31. That's right

:thumbsup:

[Azlady]

46. Thumbs up on what you said Skittles!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

47. THAT'S THE SPIRIT! GOD DAMN ALL FUCKING FOREIGNERS!

If this attitude is indicative of supposed progressives in the United States, then I'm goddamn fucking sorry I'm being deported back to the US because *I* lost my overseas work visa.

But I'm an American, so I'm a person, right?

[bunnies]

52. Why are you angry at others over a risk YOU chose to take?

:shrug: You signed up for the visa knowing full well that if you lost your job you'd be deported... right? :shrug: You KNEW that when you decided to move there. RIGHT?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

53. I'm not the one shitting on other human beings.

That right is reserved for the above all-caps poster.

[Skittles]

79. LOL

gawd you are SO PATHETIC :rofl:

[wickerwoman]

80. Still sucks though...

I lost my entire life savings, my job, my home, basically everything I had trying to move to New Zealand. I had a job offer and was on my way to a work permit when the economy tanked, the company closed, I lost my visa and had to move back home with my parents.

I was out well over $20,000 on plane tickets for several interviews, moving costs over three continents, application fees, medical exams for my pets...

Yes, I took a risk, but don't ask me to be happy about "foreigners" getting their visas yanked. Immigration is absolutely the most stressful, hellish event of my entire life and I have nothing but sympathy for people trying to make a better life for themselves and having the rug yanked out from under them through no fault of their own.

[bunnies]

83. I dont disagree. It definitely sucks.

And I certainly wouldnt ask anyone to be happy about the situation. I'm simply pointing out that those who take the risk, like yourself, have to be prepared for the outcome of the risk their taking. In a perfect world, no one would ever lose their job through no fault of their own. Thats not the reality though.

[Smith_3]

88. It's easy for you to say. Having American citizenship essentially the whole world is open to you.

Even if your attempt of migration fails, for you that will not mean that you may be denied visas to other countries for the rest of your life. You probably have never been treated like a criminal by border police before either. If you as an American lose your job overseas, depending on the country they probably will be very respectful while asking you to leave. The chances that you will ever be arrested and forcefully deported are neglegible. And also, if you get sent home you will not be returning to a place where there are no human rights and no democracy.

[bunnies]

92. Are people in the US losing their visas being arrested

and forcefully deported? :shrug: That would seem a bit bizarre considering the amount of undocumented immigrants working and living here.

Is there a reason that people from countries with no human rights or democracy cant apply for asylum?

As far a border crossings - the only border I've crossed is Canada. I've never had the means to travel the world, unfortunately.

[wickerwoman]

115. I lived in China for about five years and many of my friends are Chinese.

When you go to the American consulate in Shanghai there's a "foreigners" section for Americans which seats about ten people and a section the size of a airplane hanger that seats about four hundred for Chinese people applying for visas to the US. Many of them wait years, spend every penny their entire family has earned and still have only an extremely slim of chance of being approved for a visa.

One of my best friends was a gastroenterologist who was offered a fellowship at Johns Hopkins. She was a single mother and would only have been allowed to go to the US if she left her son behind for three years as insurance that she would return. After months of waiting and spending a fortune on application fees, medical exams and language tests, she was turned down for a visa because they were afraid she was planning to defect. I can only imagine how she would have felt if she had given up all those years with her child only to be sent back to China as soon as the economy turned sour.

People with US visas, especially from China, worked their asses off to get them and have their entire futures invested in them. They can't apply for asylum if they lose their visa unless they can prove they're in imminent peril of arrest, which is virtually impossible to prove. Some of them went way out on a limb promising not to apply for US citizenship and then did it anyway when they got here. How do you think that will be viewed when they are sent home?

I think it's sad that some people's reaction to tough economic times is to advocate throwing out immigrants, many of whom do bring skills that are in demand and who have dreamed for years about coming to the US. It's the same old divide and conquer shit that the ruling classes have been pulling for a hundred years.

[bunnies]

116. Thanks for the info.

Youre obviously way more knowledgeable on the subject than I. I know someone whos company sent him to China to work... he was able to bring his entire family... no issues whatsoever.

Personally, I dont agree with sending these people home. Not having a job is bad enough as it is. Plus, most of them have skills that we are lacking here. I remember reading that Google and Microsoft would be screwed without people having H-1Bs.

Anyway - Id like to think that the chuck-em-out mentality is caused by peoples fear coupled with the instinct to self-preserve. I wish we could point that anger to those who deserve it. The ones that actually caused this mess.

[Hello_Kitty]

150. The whole world is open if you are an American with MONEY.

They want your tourist dollars. You are right that we are generally treated better by immigration and border agents. But don't sit there and act like any American can pick out any country they want and just go live there. It ain't like that. Most countries have stricter visa laws than we do.

[Skittles]

57. that's not what it is

and YOU FUCKING KNOW IT

By the way, my mum is a "foreigner" - I am first born American on one side, second on the other.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

58. That's OK. Plenty of people here would cheer if your mom got kicked out. n/t

[TahitiNut]

65. Then why do you continue to post on a site with so many low-life, bigoted, jingoistic hypocrites?

Slumming? :eyes: :eyes:

[Skittles]

67. he's a coward

[Skittles]

66. you just don't fucking get it do you?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

73. I guess not.

I really don't see how cheering H1-B visa holders getting kicked out of the country and treating them as if they're subhuman scum is a productive activity.

[Skittles]

78. nope, you clearly do not get it

[Sandrine for you]

59. Maybe your a terrarist....

:woohoo: :woohoo:

[girl gone mad]

3. You're not making much sense.

Maybe you can try again later when you're in a calmer mood?

[Skittles]

4. doesn't know the difference between fair trade and exploitation

[Smith_3]

7. Judging from many of the comments on this board.

There is no difference, and the foreign worker is the one to blame.

[acmavm]

32. No, it's the American worker's fault. They think they should be able

to find work in their own country.'

Shame on them!!

:sarcasm:

[Fire1]

76. Nail on the head!

[pampango]

12. Defining "fair trade" is about as difficult as defining "free trade".

Some want to keep Third World countries out of our market (low wages and working conditions, weak unions). Others want to also keep out Canada and Europe (high wages and comparable working conditions, but they have national health care as an unfair advantage).

"Free trade" is a misnomer invented by conservative politicians and economists to misrepresent what it actually is. "Fair trade" means something different to everyone who uses it. We're all in favor of it. We just have different understandings of what it is.

[Hello_Kitty]

77. We put a 2% surplus on Chinese goods. They slap a 20% tariff on ours.

Now, it would seem obvious to anyone that a fair situation would be for the tariffs to be equal. But no, the globalists will say that we are obligated to "help" China's industries and that if we raised the tariff on their goods that would be "protectionism" and cause a "trade war". As if there hasn't been one going on already, which the global corporations and banks are winning and workers are losing.

[chemp]

5. sounds like someone found a little urine in his breakfast cereal

I have no problem with foreign born workers who are legally here and legally paid.
Business that pay anyone under the table ignore tax laws and hurt everyone.
My giant peeve is calling a help desk and getting another country. Cable, computer, insurance, car company, whatever... all outsourced.

[acmavm]

6. Sheesh, take a valium and get your shit together. You're hysterical.

Evil, evil Americans. They want jobs! The think they should be employed by American companies and corporation rather than allowing in cheap foreign labor. Oh, those simple minded selfish Americans! Dumb fucks. Why should they be able to work and eat and have a roof over their heads.

[Smith_3]

10. America benefits alot from other countries.

Uses 30% of the worlds energy while having less than 1/20 of the worlds population. But how dare anyone ask anything in return or want a piece of that.

[acmavm]

14. Does America PAY for the energy it? Or does we get it for FREEEEEE?

Yep, we pay for it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. Yes, but ipse facto you pay less that it's worth to you.

You almost certainly pay more than it's worth to the people selling it to you, too, although given the strength of America's negotiating positions in trade deals that's not an absolute certainty.

America needs the rest of the world. Never forget that.

[acmavm]

29. We need jobs first. The rest of the world means nothing if we have

no jobs, no future.

We've been economically kissing the rest of the world's ass for decades. Our economy has been the meal ticket for everyone but the American laborer.

Time to fix that situation.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. Quite the reverse.

America is one of the richest nations in the world, and one of the main sources of that prosperity has been using Americas economic, military and political muscle to enforce one-sided terms in trade deals with other countries, especially third world ones.

It's the rest of the world that has been kissing America's ass, not vice versa; fixing the situation would (I wish I could say will) inevitably involve more prosperity leaving America for poorer countries, and that's a good thing, for exactly the same reason that redistribution of wealth from rich to poor within a country is a good thing.

[acmavm]

37. We're rich. All of us are rich? That's fucking good to know because

I have been told that my country is going bankrupt, that China holds our economy by the balls, and that people are losing their jobs due to the economy and thousands are being foreclosed upon. Wonder where those rumors started. Glad you could set it all straight. Showing all us whiney bastids that we OWE it to the rest of the world to go under and we have no right to expect to be able to live in our own country, sheltered, fed, and working.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. Do Africans have that right?

N.T.

[acmavm]

45. Well, Africa is NOT my/our problem. They deserve help, they

deserve concern, they deserve compassion and pity.

BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME AND EMPLOYMENT.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. Of course it does.

If America pursues "America first" policies, that causes even worse problems for Africa.

"I don't care about African suffering" is a perfectly valid position. "African suffering is nothing to do with me" is not, if you are advocating policies that increase it.

I note that you didn't answer my question. You claim that Americans have a right to certain things; you are advocating policies that will deny those same things to even more Africans than currently don't have them.

[acmavm]

49. Okay, here's you answer to you stupid (and yes, it is very stupid)

question. Of course they deserve. Let them develop an industry and find a market for their goods. Not my job, not my problem. We are not the world's policeman or their babysitter.

Where did you get this lame shit? Who said anything about African's and them being undeserving?

[haele]

63. No, you're pitting one set of workers against other sets -

So that neither can help each other in their own countries. This is the problem - the workers in India and Africa can do more good in their countries participating in small and emerging businesses to create stable economies over there, than allowing those already wealthy to to extend their money sponging activities to a global level rather than be responsible for their actions on a local level.
Micro loans is the answer to improve those poor economies. Not taking American jobs to become an indentured servant to some local "Big Man".

If I don't have a job that pays enough so I could participate in various activities that create jobs in other countries, then could I have participated in the several collections the blue collar workers in my group had over the years to send start-up loans of just $20 - $50 to over 20 impoverished men and women in Africa and the Philippines to be able to improve their families and their neighborhoods?
Or would you rather I lose the job that just pays my family's medical and puts a roof over their head and food in the pantry so that some Western -educated over-privileged scion of a local ruling class can make deals with equally over-privileged and greedy American "globalists" exploit both countries to live high on the hog.
There is still grinding poverty, exploitation, and class warfare in those outsourced countries. The poor are only being moved off their generational farms and in-country villages and herded into the cities and factory zones to try to survive on some sort of "promise" of a better life.
The "improvements" that are used to show off those outsourced companies are only felt by the already middle-class or lower-middle class - the already educated managerial types. There is still no upward movement amongst the majority of the worker force.
In "third world" countries, the only time you see upward movement out of poverty is when local businesses are encouraged. Potters, Metalsmith/Mechanics, Tailors, Shopkeepers... People who can invest in their families and communities and are dependant on the fortunes of the local economy to keep going.
Not some factory or call center that can pack-up on a whim or when the employee costs get over 10 cents USD an hour.

Trickle-Down never works, no matter what the culture. And as more workers prosper, charity historically increases.

Haele

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

74. Kudos to you, but I think you're probably wasting your breath.

A lot of people here have convinced themselves that the United States is a third world country, held in the thrall of India and China. It's insane and stupid, but I see it here every day.

[Romulox]

86. You are using the language of the Left to shill for multinational corporations

The multinational corporations that hire H1Bs don't distribute their profits amongst Africa's poor. :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

145. THANK YOU!!

Gah! What the fuck is so HARD about that for these Globalism Numbskulls to understand?

[olegramps]

97. Africa has been on the way down ever since they gained independence.

Some of the most stable areas of Africa when they were under European rule were productive and stable. What has emerged in Africa have been vicious dictatorships that have destroyed much a Africa.

Now, don't jumped to some conclusion that I support colonization. I am merely pointing out that Africa's problems are a result of their own ineffective leadership. Corruption is rampant throughout Africa. Everything desired requires a bribe. The infrastructure that was developed during the colonization period is in total disrepair. Africa has become a basket case with little hope of recovery in the near future. No one in their right mind would invest in these countries and they can not continue to rely on Western charity to bail them out. Do I feel sorry for these desperate people? Absolutely, since I have traveled there and have seen the hopelessness of the people caught between waring factions.

[liberalhistorian]

108. The major reason for that is the

arbitrary and artificial nation boundaries drawn by the colonizers that did not take tribal histories, cultures, customs, trade and infrastructure into account, only the convenience of the colonizers. THAT is the major reason for such unrest and "ineffective leadership" after colonization. That, and there was no opportunity to develop "effective leadership" among the populace thanks to the cultural genocide actions by the colonizers.

It's kind of like the Indian reservations in this country. False boundaries that didn't take tribal histories, cultures and customs into account and then the transgeneration trauma of attempted cultural genocide that has so severely damaged tribes to this day.

[acmavm]

81. Not my problem. Tell it to their government. I have my own to worry about.

[wickerwoman]

117. Yes.

Inasmuch as 90% of the US population isn't involved in subsistence farming, we're all pretty damn rich. Do you live in a corrugated iron shack, have one set of clothing and have to wash it in a river naked in all weathers? Is there a 10-20% chance your child will die before it reaches the age of 5? When was the last time you went consecutive days without food while working construction and coming home to live on a bunk bed in a trailer with ten other guys? Do you have plumbing, electricity, a secondary education and access to an emergency room? Congratulations, you won the frickin' birth lottery.

Yes, the American economy sucks but it's a long, long, long, long way to the bottom.

You have a right to shelter, food and work but so does everyone else regardless of where they were born. And there are many countries where the majority of the population hasn't had any of those things for decades. They're poor. We're the richest country in the world going through an economic hiccup. Sorry, it sucks. I'm unemployed too. But I'm not going to begrudge my job to some of the poorest people on the planet who have been busting their ass since birth to get out of life threatening poverty.

[Owl]

44. I agree.

[acmavm]

50. I know. I'm talking to an idiot.

edit: Not you. The doofus that thinks the world's problems will be solved if we're unemployed and worry about Africa first.

[Hello_Kitty]

137. It's so maddening, isn't it?

They really do think that if Americans are fighting over garbage scraps that will improve the lots of everyone else in the world who fights over garbage scraps.

[Romulox]

85. There is no logic to your post. What something is "worth" is what a buyer is willing to pay

and a seller is willing to accept.

I fear that the bailout, with it's idiotic "what are these securities that no one is willing to buy worth?" PR campaign has permanently damaged public understanding of economics. :eyes:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

107. I fear you're rather proving your own point about public understanding of economics :-p

What something is worth *to you* is the maximum you are willing to pay/the minimum you are willing to accept for it.

Talking about worth in a vacuum would indeed be evidence of limited understanding of economics. But talking about what something is worth to someone is not.



Sales only take place when something is worth more to the buyer than the seller.

The fact that you are buying something without extraneous pressure on you to do so proves that you are paying less than it is worth to you, and hence (and it's this bit that is the point I was trying to make clear) that you are better off as a result of being able to buy it than you would be if you didn't have that option, and were forced to keep your money but not get it.

Forbidding a trade that would otherwise take place makes both the buyer and the seller worse off - one gets left with money that is worth less to him than the goods, and the other gets left with goods that are worth less to her than the money.

[Romulox]

109. Errr... you are ignoring the SELLER in this transaction

"Talking about worth in a vacuum would indeed be evidence of limited understanding of economics."

Indeed!

"The fact that you are buying something without extraneous pressure on you to do so proves that you are paying less than it is worth to you,"

By precisely the same token, the fact that you are selling something without extraneous pressure on you to do so proves that you are receiving MORE than it is worth to you.

Hence, it is a nonsense to describe a market transaction as transferring property for "less than its worth." :hi:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

111. I agree, it's nonsense, *which is why I didn't do so*.

Try reading the post you initially replied to again?

[Romulox]

112. I responded to the fact that your comment made no sense in context

and also that I've heard this bizarre meme repeated countless times in the Canadian press: that Canada deserves thanks for selling oil to the US at market prices.

If you and I agree that the purchase of energy from Canada is a market transaction, then we can also agree there is no need for any thanks! Canada got everything it was entitled in the transaction when it accepted the $$$. :hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

136. The rest of the world needs America

Not saying that's the way it should be but the current economic situation of the world demonstrates how that's the case. Isn't it funny how all the time the U.S. was admonished to be more "global", other countries were talking about how they planned to "decouple" from us. That decoupling didn't turn out to be so easy, did it?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. Yes, demanding that someone give you a job rather than someone else is selfish.

America has no more right for companies to set up factories there rather than elsewhere than any other country, and considerably less need.

The difference between the America-firsters and the good guys is not in the amount they care about Americans, it's in the amount they care about non-Americans.*



*Actually, that's not strictly true - a lot of people who don't give a damn about non-Americans, but do understand basic economics, oppose American protectionism because it will be bad for America too.

[BlueManDude]

8. Immigtation is a huge factor in the decline of good jobs and wages in the USA.

It is eroding our standard of living and neither party wants to deal with it.

I guess I'm a racist.

[Smith_3]

11. Immigration is a reality and always has been.

Any solution that attempts to block immigration is not a solution and is going to set us back centuries.

[acmavm]

15. Back that up please. Oh, and go tell all of Europeans who are sick of the same

damn baloney arguments while you're at it.

[olegramps]

101. Are you serious?

Americans back LEGAL immigration. American's welcome those who admire our principles and what to become part of our success.

It is illegal immigration that is a major problem. Do you support the exploitation of illegal immigrates by greedy business owners? Do you support the outflow of billions of dollars out of our economy to prop up the dysfunctional Mexican economy? Do you enjoy the vicious gangs that don't hesitate to murder people and fill our prisons? Do you think that an illegal alien has more of a right to a job than honest hard working American citizens?

[Realityhack]

103. Check further up thread. Nobody mentioned Illegal immigration.

They made a blanket statement and people are specifically including those with visas. The poster you are responding to is quite correct that cutting off immigration altogether is not a reasonable possibility.

[BlueManDude]

118. It's 2009 not 1820. Having open borders today is absurd and is ruining this country.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

75. Fine.

Give the country back to the American Indians then. It's only fair, seeing it was stolen / taken by force from them in the first place.

[Realityhack]

95. Actually without it we would be severely fucked.

Coloring the issue as a simple black and white immigration is good/bad is overly simplistic.

The US would not be where it is today without foreign labor. It makes a huge difference in our high tech sectors keeping us ahead of the competition.
And as for other areas, many would be hard pressed to replace their work force with an entirely domestic one.

And that is just guest workers not becoming citizens.

Without immigration we are at negative population growth while we face an increase in the percentage of population entering old age.

Let's not pretend that this is a simplistic issue so you can feel good.

[Hello_Kitty]

147. No we are not at negative population growth w/o immigration

We are currently at about .9% annual pop. growth, of which 1/3 (or .3%) is immigration. The remaining .6% doesn't seem like a lot but if you plug it into the algorithm to determine how long it takes to double 70/x (where x = ann. growth) = n years, then you can see that without any immmigration the U.S. population would double in 116 years, or by 2125. (With the immigrants added in, it would be 77 years until we double, or 2096.) As it is, the children of the Baby Boomers, known as the Echo Boomers, actually outnumber their parents. And given the difficulty many of them are going to encounter paying for college in the near future many of them will find themselves competing with lower-wage immigrants for low skilled jobs.

[anonymous171]

98. ILLEGAL Immigration is, because corporations can pay them less and get away with it.

It's all about the corporations and their greed.

[Realityhack]

102. We do need to see more differentiation between the different types.

Legal immigration, Illegal immigration, Guest workers who are looking to become citizens, high tech vs. low tech, etc. etc.

This whole buy American kick the guest workers out ban immigration idea would completely fuck us. Buying American almost killed our auto industry once because it let Detroit sell shit for years while the competition innovated. Many of our tech companies would not exist if it where not for the ideas and work of immigrants and guest workers (including those seeking citizenship). And too many born in the US forget where they originally came from.

If an illegal immigrant gets your job at $2 an hour I see your argument. If a guest worker here legally gets an IT job paying $50 because people with the same experience here want $100 and they are trying to get US citizenship... well it may be an entirely different story. And in good times our high tech industry simply could not compete the way it has without those workers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. Our economy needs to create at least 200,000 jobs each month.

Just to accommodate immigrants. It doesn't. The percentage of americans employed has dropped each year since 2000, and that is the primary reason that median family income has also dropped.

[Marrah_G]

9. Have fun living in your black and white world.

I'm curious to know what you do for a living.

[Realityhack]

105. A good point.

This should not be treated as a black and white issue. Different industries and different types of immigration are distinct and need to be looked at separately.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. I already do, so let's get HB1s stopped and goods manufactured abroad tariffed highly nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

93. I find that very difficult to believe

unless you farm all your own food and make your own clothing from fabric you've woven, you're buying foreign products. (and you seem to be using a computer; care to open the case and take a good close look at the PCBs with a magnifying glass and tell me what country of origin is stamped on them? Helpful hint: It won't be the USA.)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

120. Well, I'm not perfect but let me tell you what I do....

I buy second hand, I try to buy locally (fruits and veggies - how likely are they to come from China and so on?), and I'm going to buy an American car when I need a new one.

Of course once in a while I buy things that are made in China. I bought 2 pencils the other day. I'm sure those are made in China. :)

[Realityhack]

104. You haven't entirely.

And you shouldn't if better alternatives exist. Otherwise US companies will fall behind the competition. It has happened before.

Furthermore, care to tell us how many people with an H1B visa eventually become citizens? Care to explain how there tax dollars are different than yours? How about if you just explain how the US can keep it's science and technology edge with half the workers in those fields gone.

Maybe you should check and see who worked on the Manhattan project while you are at it.

Our technological edge is in large part due to our openness to invite the best people in the world here to work and to become citizens if they like.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

121. I think we need to focus on our people now who are quickly becoming impoverished....

these are not people on the news, they're people we actually know.

[Realityhack]

126. Nice dodge.

you didn't answer a single question and you still seem to be treating the issue in a simplistic black and white manner.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

133. Wow. I guess I was too mild-mannered huh? Let me be a little bit more emphatic....

Until American jobs are back here strong and available, HB1 visas need to be STOPPED.

Gee, I hope that wasn't too vague.

[OhioChick]

144. I agree with you 100%, Sarah! n/t

[quaker bill]

16. No

but I would prefer that H1-B visas only be issued when there is in fact a lack of US citizen workers with the skills and training to do a particular job. This would be opposed to the notion used currently where these visas are apparently issued when there are not sufficient US citizen workers willing to do a particular job at or around minimum wage.

I do not like seeing anyone put out of house and home regardless of citizenship. However I would prefer no one be invited here simply to displace US citizen workers at lower cost. Keeping the labor supply tight will improve wages.

There is this notion that the US cannot compete globally unless we allow wage costs to fall closer to international standards. Note that this burden of making our companies competitive is placed squarely on the back of the front line worker. It apparently never resides in the corporate board room, where salaries have no apparent upward limit. I say we pay the workers well and outsource the CEOs to a vastly cheaper labor market.

[ieoeja]

72. What about multinational companies?

Example: a French citizen and a bigwig in the company in the European region gets promoted to CEO. French bigwig gets H1-B visa to work out of global HQ in US.

Or same thing on a lower level where an Australian employee within the company gets placed in charge of global software support/development based out of the US.

Actually, I suppose that might fit your "lack of US citizen workers with the skills and training" rule if you define "inhouse experience" as required skill/training. Though in the first real-life example I cite above there were still scores of people in the US with equivalent inhouse experience.

[quaker bill]

124. Generally

Corporations are not going to hire a CEO from a foriegn labor market to save on labor costs. So I would have no concern in this sort of case and some type of exception for such curious circumstances could be written into the rule.

H1-B visas were not invented as a means for corporations to hire foriegn workers to replace US citizen workers at lower labor costs. Allowing this sort of use of the program is economic suicide and needs to come to an end.

[LiberalEsto]

17. I don't want my tax dollars subsidizing companies

that lay off American citizens and replace them with lower-paid (skirting around the H1-B regulations) foreigners.

If they insist on hiring them, these companies should get NO property tax breaks, no federal tax breaks, no state tax breaks, no federal grants, contracts, research and development funds or subsidies of any sort.

Why should these companies be rewarded with our tax money for putting us out of work?

[ixion]

18. of course not. But I'm not happy when wages are driven down by those folks, either

which is exactly what has happened over the course of the past few years.

[OhioChick]

19. I don't buy foreign when possible...

Judging by your post referring to "your money" and "your shitty underpaid jobs" etc., one must assume that you're a disgruntled foreigner?

Quote: "you're not fucking welcome anymore either."

I know we're not. Guess you didn't get the memo.

India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Jobs/Expatriate_executives_making_way_for_local_hires/articleshow/4039529.cms

What are these "American Products" that you speak of?

:rofl:

Dude, you seriously need some help.

[eridani]

125. That's exactly what India should be doing. And so should we n/t

[OhioChick]

134. India is kicking out the foreigners....

India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Jobs/Expatriate_executives_making_way_for_local_hires/articleshow/4039529.cms

[eridani]

148. Yes. They should be doing that. And so should we n/t

[JANdad]

20. In a word...

Yes...

[MiniMe]

22. There is a certain irony here, some of those jobs may have been outsourced

to another country, very possibly the one they came from. While I feel for them on a human basis, they are in the same boat as thousands of americans right now.

[.... callchet ....]

23. To the OP

I believe it is a world problem. The used and abused in the world are not the enemies. I believe in massive progressive taxes and massive social programs. What do you believe in ?

[stray cat]

24. They are friends of mine who I care about - why would I wish something bad on my friends

[BlooInBloo]

27. 'Murikkka for the 'Murikkkans!!!!

:rofl:

DU can be really fucking pathetic at times.

This is one of them.

[acmavm]

38. Well, you're pretty pathetic all the time.

[DainBramaged]

40. It must suck being stupid

:eyes:

[deleted post]

151. I know...it's so pathetic to want to eat...Stoopid Americans!

:eyes:

[Romulox]

28. I think the "all or nothing" style argument is one of the weakest.

Don't like to drown! Fine! Then quit drinking a glass of water with your lunch! And give up bathing! And no wine with dinner, either! ad nauseum. :eyes:

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

30. No globalist TOOL is going to guilt me out

that's a really weak game you brought, Skippy

[Iggo]

33. No. I'm sad that it's come to this.

[L0oniX]

34. Stop consuming WHAT American products? So foreign workers take priority over American workers huh?

Why don't you move out of America if you care so little for our jobs. Maybe you could come back and work on a visa and take another job away from us. So you don't have a problem with working for $1.39 a day making shoes. Maybe you're one of those career oriented Booger King managers ... oh that's right Jack in the Box is now out sourcing the order takers ...ooops ...maybe they will not accept American money for pay ...Oh No's what will we do then?

[Junkdrawer]

35. How about this? Goods produced by underpaid foreign workers should be tariffed...

in exact proportion to the underpayment of said workers.

Dick Gephardt ran on that in 2004 and I always thought the idea received too little consideration.

http://www.universallivingwage.org/

[DainBramaged]

39. I see you're carrying your "feel sorry for job-stealing Foreigners" meme here

Really, if you are so sorry,sympathetic to their plight, go to India or China and get a job there. Oh wait, you can't just go to those countries and get a job there, it isn't as easy as coming to America. You can't just go pump gas or work at a Seven and Twelve selling cigarettes, or work at a help desk trying to fix computer problems. Oh and BTW, I go OUT OF MY WAY to try and by American products, but if the corporations hadn't shipped our manufacturing jobs OVERSEAS so you could buy cheap crap, we'd have jobs and American made products.

Must suck to be a Corporate publicist.

[InkAddict]

41. Go back to bed OP and get up on the other side...Geesh!

Without earned income, one can't buy a computer, clothes, cigar, etc...no matter where or who makes them. One would be lucky to pay for a roof over one's head and food, locally grown or not. I cannot afford any travel except to my job because the two other adults in this household haven't had stable employment in years, so I cannot afford to see if the grass is greener elsewhere, not even for a fantasy vacation making like the natives. As for resources, the funny thing about America is the diversity of its resources spread from sea-to-shining-sea. Actually, I do have relatives, albeit my marriage, living in foreign lands and, since GOPer's have already messed around there, perhaps they'd leave the people to live in peace for awhile, at least until I kick off. I can't take the pittance off SS w/me, but from what I can see it will go farther there and perhaps I can do some good in the process--;pretty soon living in Ohio may well resemble living in Danfur. There's a FEMA camp up the road I hear.

Why should unemployment be taxed while Americans in foreign lands earn big $$ tax-free and American companies make windfalls on commodities the unemployed need to heat their hovels - I'm not interested in being a "kept" American; just a contributing American with fair opportunities to make a living on planet Earth for a short while.

PISS OFF!

[.... callchet ....]

43. Throw a bone in the kennel and watch the dogs fight over the bone.

Instead of getting together and demanding a bone for everybody.

[bunnies]

51. I love irrational rants.

and this is a beauty! :thumbsup:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. Xenophobia and nationalism are big sellers in economic hard times.

[TahitiNut]

61. Uh-huh... because that's the ONLY reason American labor is complaining about foreign labor.

Yup. Sure. Ubetcha. (Damn selfish workers!)

[Romulox]

69. American Democracy = Xenophobia, if you are a globalist. nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

84. Especially when lack of it is what caused this.

Phobia. That's funny. You should wish it was fear.

[depakid]

99. They're good sellers anytime in America!

and that's true even when it involves the folks who harvest the crops and put food on their tables.

[anonymous171]

100. LOL! Globalists have invaded the left, under the guise of "nationalism fearing" progressivism.

[Evoman]

55. There are two ways to deal with the race to the bottom.

The first is to fight it. You force American companies to stay in America. You force non Americans to leave the country. You lift yourself up while you kick others down.

The second is to raise the bottom. To see people as people, and form global unions, where everyone prospers.

The first one is easier, but it is bereft of justice and dignity. The second is fair, but almost impossible and requires changes in the way people think of themselves and "the other". It requires us to help others eat, control their population and reproduction.

What to do?

Well, there is always the third option. Nothing...we just sit and cry while our world falls apart, blaming each other while the richest people in the world fulfill their plans of ruling you like the dirty peasant you are.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

56. Feel better now that you've had your rant? I guess it doesn't bother you that qualified Americans

can't find jobs in their own country due to outsourcing and guest workers.

And believe me, if I could, I would purchase mostly American made. Unfortunately we are in the clutches of large corps who couldn't care less except for the bottom line.

[TahitiNut]

60. Any American worker that keeps his or her job when a needy person from another country wants it ....

... is just being racist and selfish and jingoistic. God Forbid that those indolent, bigoted, spoiled American workers insist that THEY have some entitlement to work when their Corporate Masters are able to hire a Canadian, Mexican, Chinese, Romanian, Indian, Bulgarian, Pakistani, Chaldean, or any other country's workers for less!

Fuck American Labor! Hire whomever will do the MOST for the LEAST!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

68. TahitiNut

:hug:

[Smith_3]

90. That is called a strawman, I believe. nt

[Raksha]

114. No, it ISN'T a straw man!

It's precisely what you neo-globalists in progressive clothing are saying, with very little exaggeration. I'm getting really sick of you people.

[Smith_3]

123. I personally have nothing material to gain from immigration.

I however have alot of friends from alot of different countries, and the "in hard times we gotta kick the foreigners out" crowd really gets on my nerves.

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. ... 'cept cheap lettuce. n/t

[libodem]

64. sure, yeah

and to hell with the wimpy chain-link border fence, better build a Berlin style rock wall around this county, no one in, no one out, put cameras on every corner, make your neighbors tell on you, bug the phones, put everyone and their families in jail as forced labor, make justice a bribe system, punish and execute as many as fast as you can, promote suicide, in fact let's all just kill ourselves....My God, what have we let happen to this country.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello_Kitty]

71. You know, you could always volunteer to give your job to a displaced visa holder.

Put your money where your sanctimonious mouth is.

[Waiting For Everyman]

82. You're in for a big surprise in about 6 months.

When you free traders finish off this nation's economy, the world is going with it. Then what? Then who are you going to steal from? People who think like you have already nearly killed it, but why stop just because of that?

Go ahead, cut your own throat some more. You are an idiot.

[Vinca]

87. The OP must be a CEO raking in massive bundles of money

off the backs of underpaid foreign workers. No one wants anyone out of work, but if the choice is between an American worker losing his job and a foreign worker losing the same job, the American keeps the job. And I would give anything to buy American. (Still have the bounty out for a "new old" American toaster.)

[Smith_3]

89. Yeah. Thinking foreigners have same rights as americans is definately something only a CEO would do.

Specially the ones with massive bundles of money.

:eyes:

Have you ever been to another country?

[Hello_Kitty]

138. Oh yeah

All workers the world over should have the same right to work for the pittance that the Ownership Class wants to throw us.

Newsflash: Supporting "globalism" doesn't make you tolerant, multi-cultural, and hip. It makes you stupid. Wake up.

[mitchum]

110. I suspect that the OP is just a loyal TOADY who is serving his corporate MASTERS

pretty ineptly, I must say

[Hello_Kitty]

139. That's what I think too.

Mr. Sir doesn't waste his time on a message board arguing for free trade. He let's his lickspittles do his PR.

[sentelle]

91. I certainly hope the OP is satire

Because it represents something of an extreme.

Do I like all these H1-b visas? No.

Do I wish ill on anyone, foreign or domestic? No.

Do I think companies have an incentive to exploit the rules to hire foreign workers, instead of equally qualified local talent? Yes.

IMSMR, H1-B was designed for foreign workers with unique skills. These were considered skill that no (or none that are available) local talent possess. It was intended for the innovators.

Companies have so twisted this as to make it that just about any job might be elgible.

In my job, we have a few of them. Most of them are transplants from our corporate mothership in the UK. But I suspect that most people aren't thinking about 'white' foreigners.

I suspect a lot of the anti-foreigner sentiment is a coded reference to anti-white foreigners. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be able to tell a local (or a permanent resident) from a illegal (or alien worker) unless they told me.

The companies that twist the rules to make any us job need 'unique skills', are the ones I blame. There just aren't that many innovators out there, local or foreign. And no, speaking hindi, in a US company, is not a 'unique skill', its a fake requirement made to make the position only available to foreigners (and specific foreigners at that)

I don't blame the visa holders, they are just looking for a leg up, much like we are. If the role were reversed, we'd do the same.

I would suggest that we direct our anger on the correct subject, and not do the one thing left that would turn this economy into a full, deep depression, unlike anything we've seen.

[Skittles]

146. wrong

I don't like my job being outsourced to Ireland any more than I like it being outsourced to Brazil or India or Vietnam. THESE JOBS SHOULD NOT BE OUTSOURCED or H1-B'd - IT IS KILLING OUR MIDDLE CLASS AND OUR ECONOMY.

[JANdad]

94. I answered your question upthread

with a simple yes...yes I am happy when they lose their visas...(scabs that they are)

I guess a response from you is out of the question huh????

[anonymous171]

96. lol

[AngryOldDem]

106. I sure as hell am.

Sorry, no sympathy here. :nopity:

But my outrage is directed more toward the companies that reinstituted this modern-day slave trade than with the workers themselves.

And I'm sorry, if I don't have a job, or if I have to spend the middling wage I earn paying my bills, I believe I AM dealing with the "relative decline in wealth that I still am experiencing." Sorry, in an economic crisis this dire, it's America first.

[Matariki]

113. Wow. There's some sophisticated thinking

bet you knew you'd find the :sarcasm: tag here...

[yodoobo]

119. Happy? No. But lets be honest

If it come down to one job between a foreign guest worker and an American, I would prefer the American keep his job.

Why? Well the American is invested into our society. He owns a home here, maybe sending kids to school here. Will be here till he dies of old age. If he is unemployed, government resources be stretched thinner feeding him and helping him find a job. I.e. there is an impact to American society at large.

If the foreign guest worker loses his job, there is no little or no impact to American society at large. The unfortunate H1B worker goes back home and his government takes care of him, or he finds a job in his home country.

If we have an excess of jobs, then I have no problem with giving the excess to those can use them. That excess does not exist today.

[Smith_3]

122. So if there is an excess, foreigners can be hired. And in the event that this excess declines

fire them all? Like "you were good to stay as long as we needed you, now get out"?

Also, who is saying that non Americans cannot be invested into American society? All Americans are decendents of immigrants AFAIK (except the natives of course).

[yodoobo]

129. We're not talking about immigrants. We are talking about guest workers

Guest workers are by their own declared intentions here temporarily.


Common sense says that when one chair is missing, that the person who is here temporarily should go back a few years early, as opposed to the person who is here permanently.

I don't like it more either when jobs go away. I think everyone hates it.

[Hello_Kitty]

142. Smith_3, let me explain something to you.

You, as an American, don't just get to pick out a country you'd like to live in and pop on over there and get a job and permanent residence. Every country has entry requirements and visa classifications. If you go somewhere on a work permit and you lose the job, you leave. Even if you've made a home there and friends and connections. You were there for a specific purpose and that purpose no longer exists. You gots to go! Them's the breaks.

What is it about America that makes some people think that we shouldn't be allowed to control the flow of immigrants into our country, like every other country does? Are there flaws in our immigration system? Absolutely! Do we need comprehensive reform? Yes! But would it kill you to show an iota more concern for all the unemployed Americans who have NO prospects and NO place to go than you do for an H1B visa holder who will likely return to their home country substantially wealthier than his/her countrymen?

[juno jones]

127. Funny thing is,

We used to make computers, clothes, fabric, cigars here. We also made shoes, steel, tools, BBQs and in my old hometown, those little thingys that attach the curtain to the rod.

We used to make a lot of the shit you're talking about.

I have no problem with trading with foreign countries, but it is time to regain the jobs we started bleeding back in the '80's.

We still make wine here. I don't have to buy that imported. California has some pretty good ones. In WA state I can drink local wine.

[Still Sensible]

128. It's beginning to sound like we need an Anti-Immigrant Party

We know there are plenty of people on the Lou Dobbs/Pat Buchanan right wing that would probably join and there seems to be quite a few on the left that are at least sympathizers. And these immigrants are here legally for Pete's sake. The scapegoating is ridiculous.

[Hello_Kitty]

140. No, we need an Anti-Cheap Labor and Anti-Exploitation Party.

Obviously, you've never lost your job because someone else was willing to work for 40% the pay. I have. Of course, the company that laid me off last year is in dire straits right now. But you're probably more concerned about the H1B visa (a very nice man whom I've never blamed for what happened BTW) than you are about me. Hopefully, I'll find some work soon. Otherwise, I'll be living in my car in a few weeks.

[krabigirl]

132. I agree with you, but am in the minority. Would be so sad NOT to buy foreign products.

French cheese and wine, British music (that you can't get here), Italian clothes (can't afford them though hehe).


My husband came here on a working visa from France. He's now a US Citizen. It would really suck if I hadn't been able to meet him. I don't get along with most American guys, they think I'm some freak


Then again, I don't believe in borders of any kind, and the only flag I'd fly is one with the Earth on it. So, yeah.

[Hello_Kitty]

149. Well until we're under the "Earth" flag we have nations

And those nations have different labor laws, environmental standards, and currency values. Multinational corporations have taken advantage of that in so-called free trade deals that enable their owners to rake in the profits while the rest of us are in a race to the bottom.

[Barack_America]

135. I'm unhappy when anyone is hired because they are "cheap labor".

Rather than for their talents and merit.

If they're the best for the job, so be it. But if they're the cheapest way to get the job done, that's an insult to all who work for a living.

[smalll]

141. That makes no sense. Being opposed to H1-B visas does NOT require someone to be protectionist.

Honestly, I have concerns about the "buy American" stipulation for government purchases in the stimulus bill. Yes, protectionism DOES hurt everyone. We can't really "protect" American jobs or prosperity that way. But we CAN successfully protect American jobs AND American wages by NOT importing high-end foreign workers.

Oh, and your "while you're at it, stop travelling to other countries ...you better stay where the hell you are too. You're fine with the visas of all Americans living abroad being terminated then." Um, your latte-"liberalism" is showing. Yes, it would be SUCH a hardship for me (and everyone else I know) to have to give up the traditional Christmas in Bali, summers hiking the Himalayas, occasional springtime weekend hopping across the pond to stroll the boulevards of Paris. And all my swanky friends in "Democrats Abroad" -- whatever would they do if they lost their jobs designing luxury hotels for international hipsters in Tokyo, and had to come home? And where would I go for good sushi? :eyes:

[Hello_Kitty]

143. If you're concerned about "Buy American" read this:

http://www.citizen.org/trade/offshoring/government/federal/articles.cfm?ID=18343

There's nothing about the clause that is out of line or unprecedented. And it doesn't violate trade agreements.