Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Neanderthal Dream #9

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 06:15 PM
Original message
Neanderthal Dream #9



{1} "In sleep and in dreams we pass through the whole thoughts of earlier humanity …. Dreams carry us back to remote conditions of human culture and give us a ready means of understanding them better."
--Nietzsche; Human, All-Too Human

Recently, there have been a number of important scientific studies of Neanderthals. They have focused on issues ranging from studies of their DNA, their ability to speak, to the manner in which they used spears. For many people – perhaps especially those of us who watched the National Geographic specials on Louis and Mary Leaky in the mid-1960s – studies of the evolution of the human family hold an intense fascination.

By no coincidence, there have been a number of interesting OPs/threads on DU, discussing the general topic of Neanderthals. Just as there are disagreements in the scientific community on exactly who Neanderthals were, and what became of them, there are also interesting differences of opinion found within the DU Neanderthal threads.

My interest in these threads goes beyond the purely scientific, to a curiosity regarding why people think the way that they do about Early Man, including the Neanderthals. This includes people as individuals, and in the context of the larger society. And it is not limited to people’s grasp of the scientific evidence per say.

{2} "They would have spoken a bit differently. They wouldn’t have been able to produce these quantal vowels that form the basis of spoken language."
--Dr. Robert McCarthy; Florida Atlantic University;

The history of the Neanderthals is written in stone. It includes the artifacts that they made, including points, knives, scrapers, and other tools. These are generally found at sites that groups of Neanderthals inhabited, along with skeletal remains and other things that help scientists to interpret a wide range of information about them.

Neanderthals occupied parts of Asia and Europe, over a period from 130,000 to 35,000 years ago. (Earlier groups, with proto-Neanderthal traits, had lived in some of this same general area up to 600,000 years ago.) Although all of the Neanderthals were part of the stone age, there were different sub-groups. For example, there were what are referred to as the Eastern and Western Neanderthal. More, while the majority of their stone tools fit into the Mousterian culture, there are other variations associated with some Neanderthal groups. As they lived for an extended period over a large land mass, and lived in small, extended family groups, it suggests that there may have been something akin to a larger clan or tribal identity, similar to that we associate with later peoples.

Neanderthal diet included woolly rhinoceros, horse, deer, bison, and wild ox. As it is believed they used "thrusting" spears (rather than "throwing" spears or bow and arrow), it suggests the Neanderthal were an intelligent and physically strong people.

Hunting large and dangerous prey with weapons in the range of thrusting spears tends to be a coordinated group effort. Even more than areas such as tool production, this would seem to include planning and execution in a manner requires some form of language skills. There is on-going debate regarding the possibilities of Neanderthal language, which took a leap forward in 1983, with the discovery of a hyoid bone. I find the theory of Steven Mithen most interesting; he believes that Neanderthal likely had a proto-language that was more "musical" than our own, and which pre-dated the separation of music and language as distinct communication skills.

{3} "Neanderthal was a lowbrow, but his head was long, front to back; in contrast, our heads are not so deep, but they are taller: we can certainly be described as highbrows. Might the brain growth exhibited by Neanderthal man have been in the parietal and occipital lobes, and the major brain growth of our ancestors in the frontal and temporal lobes?"
--Carl Sagan; The Dragons of Eden

As Sagan points out, the brain structure of the Neanderthal suggests that they experienced a different – though closely connected – conscious reality as modern man. This holds true when compared to our immediate ancestor, archaic man (a group that includes what was formerly called Cro Magnons), which had a brain like our own. Thus, the Neanderthal likely had advantages in visual perception, including motion (occipital); and in integrating internal and external perceptions (parietal). We have the advantage in the areas of anticipatory skills (frontal); and language (temporal).

However, Neanderthals displayed a wide range of behaviors that indicate that they represent a leap forward in human development. They are recognized for having the first mortuary ceremonial rituals: they buried their dead, often with great care, including "grave goods" consisting of artifacts and food. Frequently, the dead were buried in an east-to-west direction, which is associated in early human religious practice. Numerous examples of "alters" are found in caves located in high elevations, including the intentional placing of cave bear skulls. (Bear cults existed in a wide range of human societies above the equator.)

Joseph Campbell and others believe that the placement of hearths in many caves indicates a ritual usage of fire. Campbell compares this to the modern ritual use of fire, which includes things ranging from "eternal flames" to candles in Christian churches.

There is also some evidence of cannibalism among Neanderthals. As with modern humans, this can take different forms. There is "emergency" cannibalism, such as was used by survivors of a plane crash in the Andes; and "ritual" cannibalism, which tends to be a tactic used during territorial conflicts.

{4} "The study of constructions of folk-psychology such as these is far from being complete, but it is extremely probable that myths, for instance, are distorted vestiges of the wishful phantasies of whole nations, the (age-long) dreams of youthful humanity."
--Sigmund Freud; Creative Writers and Day-Dreaming

The Epic of Gilgamesh, which is one of the oldest surviving poems, coming from ancient Mesopotamia, is primarily an example of "the hero’s journey." As explained by C. G. Jung, it tells the story of Gilgamesh and other men who have had the experience of their conscious minds being disconnected from their bodies. The effect is described in a manner that Jung recognizes as neurosis.

The "gods" call up another man to assist Gilgamesh in his journey. His name is Enkidu, and while he is like Gilgamesh and the others, he is distinct: Jung describes him as a "cave man," who lives among the wild beasts, drinks water from open springs, and inhabits a different form of consciousness, which involves the "dream world." In the epic, Enkidu dies before Gilgamesh reaches his goal; but after Gilgamesh obtains his victory, he calls upon the spirit of Enkidu to learn a final truth. The ultimate victory, Jung notes, is thus won by Enkidu.

Carl Sagan connects the genesis myth of the bible with human evolution. Included in this is his view on Abel and Cain. One of the consequences of using the hands for tool-making was the evolution of the anticipatory skills. The combination of these gave our ancestors a distinct advantage over other forms of early man. One result appears to be found in the smashed-in skulls of those early humans who did not survive the competition for resources with our ancestors.

In much more recent history, we find numerous other examples of human beings "dehumanizing" other groups. In our nation’s history, we find that white people used to identify Africans and Native Americans as "less human." The tendency to view others as less than fully human continues today.

{5} "But there was another area of the museum still more remote, a strange mix of active research and virtually abandoned cabinets and shelves. ….A province dedicated to Neanderthal remains, including the first Neanderthal skull, reconstructed by Marcellin Boule, which I held cautiously in my hands. It felt lightweight and delicate, the sutures starkly visible, perhaps the first compelling piece of evidence tht there were once creatures rather like us who became extinct, a disquieting hint that our own species likewise might not survive forever."
--Carl Sagan; Broca’s Brain

In a relatively short time after our ancestors moved into the region inhabited by the Neanderthals, our numbers increased and theirs decreased. There are a number of possible reasons for this, including climate change, disease, violence between the two groups, and the ability of our type to access a larger amount of the natural resources needed to survive. At some point, the total sum of Neanderthals reached a point where reproduction rates were significantly lower than the rate of death, and soon, they disappeared from the scene.

While a number of scientists have theorized that some Neanderthals may have been
absorbed" into our gene pool (based in part upon some fascinating individual finds among graves), recent tests suggest that this is unlikely to have taken place on a significant scale. Of course, further advances in science may change the manner in which that is interpreted.

But even if they are, as Sagan stated, our "cousins" who became extinct, there is a great deal in which other archaic and modern humans share with the Neanderthal. Some of this is found in scientific research. But there may also be important traces to be found in our myths, our dreams, and in the songs that we use to communicate. I’ll end with a quote from a brief conversation between Marshall McLuhan and John Lennon, which took place at the University of Toronto:

McLuhan: "Language is a form of organized stutter. Literally, you chop your sounds up into bits in order to talk. Now, when you sing, you don’t stutter, so singing is a way of stretching language into long, harmonious patterns and cycles. How do you think about language in songs?"

Lennon: "Language and song, to me, apart from being pure vibrations, is just like trying to describe a dream. And because we don’t have telepathy, we try and describe the dream to each other, to verify to each other what we know, what we believe to be inside each other. And stuttering is right –because we can’t say it. No matter how you say it, it’s never how you want to say it."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. I've been digging Gooch lately.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Interesting.
I'm not familiar with his work, but after reading the link that you included, I soon shall be.

Thank you for that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Unlike Mr. Nietzsche, I believe Neanderthals dreamt of us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Probably they did,
but could not anticipate the full implications.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. That was very interesting.
Edited on Thu Feb-12-09 06:36 PM by pleah

:)

K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Agreed.
To the greatest!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thank you, both.
Much appreciated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ritual cannabalism, presumably to inhere the power of the deceased?
It looks like I got the diet wrong the other night. I thought they were mostly veggie eaters -- must have been thinking of someone else.

Here's a link to a short discussion on the hyoid bone:


How the Hyoid Bone Changed History

Heather Whipps
livescience.com
Mon, 04 Feb 2008 21:40 UTC
Our gift of the gab is all due to a small horseshoe-shaped bone suspended in the muscles of our neck, like a piece of fruit trapped in Jell-O.

The hyoid bone, which is the only bone in the body not connected to any other, is the foundation of speech and is found only in humans and Neanderthals.

Other animals have versions of the hyoid, but only the human variety is in the right position to work in unison with the larynx and tongue and make us the chatterboxes of the animal world. Without it, we'd still garble and hoot much like our chimpanzee cousins, scientists say.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148389-How-the-Hyoid-Bone-Changed-History
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. One of the areas
where there is significantly less of an archaeological record is in the tools that humans generally used for plant food gathering and preparation in Neanderthal sites. A couple thoughts come to mind, the first being that there may well be an over-representation as far as cave/rock shelter dwellings go. Other habitation sites are likely under buildings, or have been destroyed by other means.

Also, it is entirely possible that Neanderthals used other materials -- wood, bone, and antler -- for digging roots, etc. These materials are more likely to return to the soil, especially if they were used in areas such as river valleys and similar sites where plant foods are frequently found.

However, there tend to be a somewhat surprising lack of the grinding and other tools used in preparing plant foods, perhaps especially surprising in some of the colder climates they lived in.

Cannabilism in the ritual sense has three general purposes: first, to obtain the "power" of the individual being consumed; second, even in non-emergency times, there is a nutritional value; and third, it scares the heck out of other groups during periods of prolonged territorial conflict. It has the effect of being a clear "no trespassing" sign, so to speak.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I found the guys I was remembering -- the Australopithecines
Haven't thought about them in 20 years or so, lol!

Anatomy and biology of the australopithecines:

* Bipedal apes with modified dentition.
* Lived in more open environmental setting, not the open plains of bushland and wooden Savannah.
* Hominid structure of teeth and jaws appear to have required more grinding that an ape’s diet.
* Male australopithecines were larger in body size. 20-40% taller, 30-40% heavier than females.
* Australopithecines were social animals.
* Foraging strategies of hominids were not dramatically different: australopithecines have been carnivores.
* Australopithecines were principally vegetarian.
* Australopithecines of 2 million years ago occurred in 2 forms:
1. Gracile (means slender)
2. Robust.

http://www.stanford.edu/~harryg/protected/chp18.htm

They were interesting because you could look at two individuals and think, that's Robustus and that one is gracile. Or, you could look at "gracile" and see a female, not a different animal at all.

I seem to remember having a bone to pick with Richard Leakey but don't remember what it was. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
29. A couple of observations about Neanderthal and meat/hunting
I should preface this by saying that most of what I have learned recently about Neanderthals is from a family friend who is both a professor of medicine and artist who has developed a fascination with trying to imagine and paint Neanderthals and Neanderthal sites.

From what I've been told and read, evidence from fossilized Neanderthal feces shows that they really did eat a diet consisting almost entirely of meat. Most modern humans would not be healthy on such a diet -- although Arctic people come close to the Neanderthal diet.

Another really interesting observation is the pattern of bone injuries and healing. I think it was only recently that pathologists realized that the pattern of bone injury of Neanderthals was very different from the pattern of bone injuries of modern humans they shared the environment with and modern hunter gatherers. The only modern people who shared almost exactly the same pattern of bone injuries are rodeo riders. This caused anthropologist to hypothesize that Neanderthal hunting was "up close and personal" with large mamals -- more like grabbing, wrestling and stabbing with their spears, while contemporary modern humans had developed throwing weapons.

Is your study of Neanderthal consistent with these observations?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Yes.
Their diet appears to be primaril to have been meat. This is a potentially important factor in relationship to the competition with our ancestors, along with climate change. When there is significant climate change over a period of time, it can result in a very real change in the availability of mast foods. As mast foods support the large mammals that humans consume (as well as provide important nutrition for "gatherers"), a reduction can mean big changes in available prey.

The large animals that Neanderthals hunted with thrusting spears were, as you note, the most obvious cause of serious injury to the hunter. Bison and oxen are not willing victims of the hunter, and any "herd" animal has its own defense system to protect young, etc.

More, thrusting spears are less effective than throwing spears (especially with an atlatl) when hunting deer. The record indicates that there were periods when the larger mammals were dying off, and when there were cycles of increases of red deer and reindeer. It may be that reindeer provided an easier target for those with thrusting spears, due to herd size and their migration patterns (specifically, crossing rivers).

Any period that includes a lack of nutrition takes a serious toll on a small group, such as the extended family units of Neanderthal. Also, there is evidence that suggests the Neanderthals reached physical maturity (hence, reproduction), at an earlier age than our ancestors. The combination of these factors could make a population more at risk for disease, and it does not take a "single" large loss in population to put the combined groups at the tipping point where the overall numbers begin to decrease.

During that same general era, other mammals died off. One interesting example was the cave bear. About 35,000 years ago, the world changed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't know if they went extinct...
There are a lot of individuals out there who's phenom carries neanderthal traits.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. One of the things about
science is that new methods are found, that increase our understanding of the connections between the past and present. I would not be surprised if, for example, in another decade there are studies that connect Neanderthals with perhaps three relatively minor sub-groups of modern man in the area of Europe.

Earlier this week, I was telling my sons about their 15-year old sister. She gets on the internet to unwind after school and sports activities. She lets me know if she communicates with any adults. Recently, she showed me e-mails back and forth between her and a couple noted scientists from universities in the US. They are discussing her theories on some topics related to earth science. The professors treat her more like a favorite graduate student, than a random 9th grader.

My sons asked me to explain what theories she is discussing with them. I have no problem in admitting theyare way, way over my head. And that's the way it should be. It gives me hope for the future, and faith in my belief that science will continue to unlock "secrets" we can all benefit from.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. I find it fascinating they didn't interbreed with humans (according to today's study)
Edited on Thu Feb-12-09 07:10 PM by Oregone
I think that is an amazing concept. A sentient, intelligent form of life separate from humans that existed within the same time periods. Can you imagine if they survived? What would reality be like today? What does this say to the humano-centrists among us, who thing we are and will ever be the only advanced/intelligent form of life ever? Its amazing to think, yet truly sad that we are deprived of their company now (and although such a reality may not be pleasant, if interests me). So if, on earth, we have proof of more than one species like this developing, what about the galaxy? If we can do Jurassic park experiments, we should bring these people back. It might make a boring mundane existing more interesting I think.

BTW, the DNA study showed they did indeed have the gene sequence in humans attributed to speech.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. One of the funniest
things that I've read, which you might appreciate, was a fellow who is focused on identifying "proof" that the Neanerthals were not human, but rather "just another type of ape." He insists that the tools buried in Neanderthal graves only prove that they stole from human beings -- darned them! -- and then buried the tools they could not possibly have used ..... much like a dog burying human-made products. I was tempted to ask this fellow what the Neanderthals used to dig the graves that they buried their dead in, but I assume that would not have connected in his rather closed mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. We are music
all variations. The Neanderthals were one variation, we are another.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Very good!
I like that. Thank you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thank you. An interesting read. I enjoyed it.
Thought provoking and I wonder what caused their demise if they existed side by side with our ancestors but could not survive. It seems they might have learned adaptation if it were climate change from those that survived. I feel it wasn't that most likely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Climate change by itself
is unlikely to be the answer. When combined with two or more other factors -- fewer food resources and the possibility of disease (both of which could be related to climate change) -- it could have been one of the contributing factors.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Yes, this is true.
It definitely could have affected their food source availability as well as disease possibilities. And we don't know the full extent of physiological differences.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. A bit of background on Neanderthal from Stanford:


Neanderthal roots can be traced back more than 250,000 years with the Neanderthal anatomy becoming firmly established about 125,000 years ago and geographically restricted to Eurasia, specifically between western Europe and NearEast.

The brain size of Neanderthals was equal to or slightly greater than modern average man. Neanderthals were skeletally very robust and heavily muscled, but were characterized by an extremely protruding mid-facial region-as if someone had taken a face made of rubber and pulled on the nose.



Several explanations have been advanced for the Neanderthal mid-facial architecture:

1. An adaptation for warming inhaled frigid air as it passed through the enlarged nasal cavities; a mean of condensing and conserving moisture in exhaled breath; and a secondary consequence in the facial region of severe chewing pressures centered at the front of the jaw.


2. The Neanderthal pelvis also seems to be highly characteristic, so much that in incomplete specimens the pelvic canal appeared to be unusually large, prompting Erik Trinkaus to postulate that gestation was prolonged in this species, the infant at birth therefore being larger than in modern humans.

A more complete specimen in 1987 from Israel found that the pelvic canal is not unusually large, merely that the pelvic bone is extraordinarily long. This and several other features not seen in human pelves supports the increasingly popular conclusion that Neanderthals represent a dead end in human evolution, not a stage on the way to Homo sapiens. On this basis there is argument for removing the Neanderthals from the subspecies status of Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and instead reverting to the Homo neanderthalensis. According to last appearances in the fossil records, Neanderthals disappeared in a wave flowing east to west between 50,000 and 32,000 years ago.

http://www.stanford.edu/~harryg/protected/chp25.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Thanks for posting that.
A dead end and not a stage to us. I found that phraseology interesting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. The artifact
in the photo in the OP is from a collection of Neanderthal artifacts from Europe. It is my most recent addition to my own collection. It is an amazing thing to hold, and think of the person "behind" it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
24. If Tonight Was Tomorrow
I'd give you a heart. Good read. There is a myth/story (Indian?) that early man learned to speak from the birds. What do you think?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thank you.
Edited on Fri Feb-13-09 05:36 AM by H2O Man
The bird story is fairly common among North American Indians; I think it is likely found among other tribal histories, as well. Certainly, for coordinating ambushes in hunting, imitating the songs and calls of birds could be very useful. Many mammals are aware of the various calls of birds that signify "warning! warning!" I also can't help but remember the old Daniel Boone series ..... "Did you hear that?" "Yes, it was a bird." "No, that was Indians!"

In Iroquois mythology, the role of birds' songs plays another similar role. It was the song of the smallest birds that made the Tadodaho "human."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Fascinating
Even more interesting, to me, was I heard that story as relating to eastern Indians. There is a universality in so many 'myths'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Right.
There is an unfortunate tendency for modern man to overlook the wisdom that is found in mythology. Our culture, for example, places a lot of value on facts, but less on truths. One problem, in my opinion, is that there hasn't been an appropriate up-dating of mythology, and individuals in high-tech society can have difficulty in relating to earlier cultures' myths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. Fact vs. Truth
Interesting divide
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. Today Is Now Today
So here you go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Many thanks to
you and anyone else who did this heart thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
25. Tremendously fascinating, in so many ways.
I tend to think that Neanderthal genetic traces will eventually be proved to be part of the genetic heritage of homo sapiens.

And they must have been good at what they did: you can't get good woolly rhinoceros any more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #25
37. Thank you.
I would not care to approach any rhinoceros with a thrusting spear!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
27. As always, a fine read


It's dismaying to hear earlier cultures considered more animal than human. It's discouraging to see development destroy sites that hold clues to earlier cultures.

"Why the fear?" is what I always ask myself. And some may say it's pragmatism and reality guiding those who denigrate their own past.

But if I pick up one more "history" book that states that man accomplished absolutely nothing until 18th century Europeans took over, I'm going to have a book burning party.

Um, London had plumbing - thanks to the Romans...hey kids,you look up the date!

And ancient people had community stores, dumps and games.

We could learn from their length of time spent here and there.

Calling them mere "animals" is self-satisfying to some small groups, but eventually is only calling us all the same. Discouraging people from seeing any intelligence in former cultures points us to the same mentality as that of Europeans who burned witches at the stake - they were superstitious control freaks.

IMHO, of course.

Lots to ponder here, H2O












Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. Right.
One of my favorite quotes comes from Luther Standing Bear's 1933 book, "Land of the Spotted Eagle":

"I am going to venture that the man who sat on the ground in his tepee meditating on life and its meaning, accepting the kinship of all creatures, and acknowledging unity with the universe of things was infusing into his being the true essence of civilization. And when native man left off this form of development, his humanization was retarded in growth."

Later in the book, he noted, "The hand is the tool that has built man's mind; it, too, can refine it."

The second quote is an accurate description of the physical process of human evolution -- the use of the hand absolutely resulted in the growth of parts of the brain which make us "human." The first quote is an equally accurate description of the potential for another type of evolution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. Great quotes


The more I study history (or what we're able to know of it) the more I realize that we absolutely must get past that Euro-centric view of this world.

If we are going to survive, I would think we would all want to study how longer-lived cultures survived. But the Spanish, British, Dutch and French weren't interested in how indigenous man fit into his landscape and managed to prosper as they slaughtered him for their Crowns.

They didn't massacre failures a few miles from here (on land the Feds agreed the Cherokee owned.) They massacred towns full of people. Towns. They detroyed orchards, fields of vegetables, stores of corn, homes, community buildings, all the while convincing themselves that these dark humans were no more than "animals" who had no knowledge of how to grow food or build or organize.

They murdered simply for the ability to control and squander the resources they found here.

Plenty of people give me grief about this topic. Thanks for being one who understands what I'm saying.

And Happy Valentine's Day to the H20 Family :hi:






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bulldogge Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. That was
so interesting! It is really amazing to step back every so often and think about the immense amount of time the cycles of life have been taking place isn't it?

The conversation between McLuhan and Lennon that you posted had me thinking about art as a form of communication in general. Were the Neanderthal responsible for cave paintings such as Lascaux or was that strictly an upper paleolithic phenomenon?

Another question I have is in regards to your comment above about your curiosity about the way people think about early man. Do you think that modern mans art has a lot to do with what may be considered a dumbing down of Neanderthal, if not others? Early drawings and paintings seem to depict them as very ape like, gorillas holding spears basically, while more modern versions, say the reconstructions at the University of Zurich, portray them as looking like you and me with thicker jaws?

Modern man would be so lucky to survive for so long in such brutal conditions!

I am so glad you shared this information with us, I really have to say I think this is one of my favorite blogs, but I am slightly biased in my enthusiasm for the subject matter and its author!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
39. The art of archaic man
in Europe seems to have two "divisions": our ancestors did the cave paintings, while the Neanderthals were apparently more focused on decorating themselves. It is likely, of course, that our ancestors also made necklaces, etc, in the same manner as Neanderthals.

One interesting area, in my opinion, has to do with music. What appears to be a flute, made of bone, has been identified as possibly being made by Neanderthals. The holes in the bone appear to be surprisingly close to those which modern man makes (hence, a similar note pattern).

In our own area, quite a few flutes dating from the Lamoka culture (approximately 2000 bc) have been found. It's possible, of course, that these were used for hunting (calling birds, for example). But as turtle-shell rattles have been found in close association with some of these flutes, it suggests that they were for music.

It may be that further evidence of archaic man's interest in music has long since returned to the soil. But it is interesting to consider.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. thank you for the read!
that was very fascinating!!

K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. Thank you.
I am glad that you and some other DUers enjoyed it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
32. Dude--I can see the image of Crazy Horse in the sharp edge of that knapped flint!
Thanks for the profound yet whimsical essay, Paul--I personally believe some folks have a bit of Neanderthal in them, no matter what the science indicates. And I do feel it in my dreams: sage smoke, red paint and firelight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
41. It's an interesting knife.
I am glad to add it to my collection.

One is my favorite activities is to sit outside at night, watching a "camp fire." One's mind can travel to fascinating places, when watching a fire.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-13-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
33. But, do Androids dream of electric sheep?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. I think that
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
34. I'm too late to recommend, but I can at least kick this wonderful thread.
Thank you Waterman.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. Thank you.
I suppose that this essay is the type of thing that DUers must endure when I get my hands on a Neanderthal knife!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC