If I did not have to worry about money, would I homeschool my kids?

[XemaSab]

This is for existing or theoretical kids.

:shrug:

[960]

1. Private schools unless I lived in a wonderful school district.

[Uzybone]

48. I'd do the same thing. Thankfully my kids go to a very good public school.

Homeschooling is out of the question

[sense]

58. Why is home schooling out of the question?

[mwooldri]

64. I'm not qualified to teach my kids everything, so if I did homeschool my son,

I'd have to hire experts in anyway.

[sense]

66. Resources

The resources are available everywhere. Online, in the community, and many are free. I couldn't possibly have taught my son everything. He speaks 6 languages now... I speak one. He passed me by long ago so I simply facilitated. There were lots of things he did learn at home, from us and by teaching himself..... We simply took away the obstacle of 6 hours a day of stifling repetition.

[mwooldri]

73. Yes, the resources are there. I just don't think I'm skilled enough.

You have a very gifted son and kudos to him and to you. Homeschooling can and does work and there's plenty of success stories. I have nothing against home schooling whatsoever... just my own skills.

Now if my wife could be out of work full time and if she really wanted to homeschool my son, she could. She's got the skills.

Mark.

[sense]

78. Thank you

We are very fortunate to be able to get by on one income so that we could choose home schooling. I didn't want to do it... thought it was just for one group or another, but it has turned out very well and it's really much more mainstream than it used to be. I do wish more people would try it, but I know there can be many obstacles.

[timtom]

111. Your son is clearly auto-didactic.

Such are somewhat rare these days. And it sounds as if your teaching regimen augmented and enhanced that (which is what education is supposed to do).

[EFerrari]

88. And that's half the problem with our school system.

It used to be that a "wonderful school district" was something the schools and their community made together. There used to be no drive up service and it worked much better. People knew each other's names and stuff.

[960]

136. That is very true.

When I was in elementary school (Public) We didn't have very many resources. The teachers worked with the parents, administrators, community etc. We had a PHENOMENAL school.
I learned things in 3rd grade I wouldn't see again until college.

Then my family moved to Alabama. There was NO WAY to work within the public school system. It was segregated by race, class, academics etc. It was UNSAFE, and nothing was taught.
I went to 2 years of middle school at the public school, but then private high school. It was safe and I was able to learn enough to get into college.

My sister ended up going to a PHENOMENAL public high school in Missouri that was far superior than my private one. It had both the financial resources and the community cooperation needed for excellent public schools.

The system needs a major overhaul, but you can't expect families to sacrifice their children's safety and education to a broken system.

[EFerrari]

189. It's a dwindling spiral, isn't it, because if parents don't help take

the schools and the neighborhood, they're giving up the territory.

I remember at university, women began to be assaulted on their way home at night from the library and we organized escorts and patrols. Same, iirc, with moms and grandmothers in East Palo Alto, a mostly poor and black community, had enough of the bullets going through their walls and their kids coming home dead and they took to the street and improved the situation by shaming the county sheriff into doing their effing job. When I lived in the Haight, I used to see my neighbors out every night "taking a walk" in a group but they were working visibility to reduce the crime rate -- and they got it done. It was remarkable. And again, our PD was sort of motivated by these folks to work visibility as well.

None of those three examples would have worked without neighborhood people contesting the territory.

[LeftyMom]

2. I already am.

Gifted education here sucks. I could do better in my sleep. And some mornings I do. :rofl:

[XemaSab]

4. LeftyKid kicks ass

You need to do a little more work on not running out in the street, though. :scared:

[LeftyMom]

7. Convincing him that he's not invincible is an ongoing project.

He's had kind of a behavioral growth spurt lately, just in the last few months he's blown me away with his progress.

[Luminous Animal]

13. Let's meet back here in 15 years when your kid...

is working in middle management.

[XemaSab]

14. Have you met LeftyKid?

He's more likely to grow up to be a professional skydiver than a middle manager. :rofl:

[Luminous Animal]

15. Oooh! Skydiving!

Now that is gifted! Good thing that he doesn't have public school holding him back!

[LeftyMom]

16. What the fuck!?!

Somebody who has actually met my kid makes a joke about his personality, and you take that as an invitation to question (again) his intelligence?

Normally I'd explain, as I have before, why he's a gifted kid whose needs could not be met in a public setting by any of our local school districts* but honestly I think I'm just going to suggest you fuck off.

*There's a public charter with a home-based program that might work, but I really don't see the point in me doing what I do anyhow and the school system getting paid for it, nor do I feel the need to jump through the additional hoops involved when I could spend that time on my kid.

[Luminous Animal]

23. Hey. I homeschooled...

but it cracks me up how many parents think their kid is too "gifted" for public school. I don't question your kid's intelligence, I question your rarefied assessment of him. I've read your posts over the years and your kid sounds great. I think 90-95% of kids are great. But, I think it's not so much that his needs can't be met in a public school setting but, rather, your needs can't be met. I suspect that you are worried that his uniqueness will be blunted by mixing with the rabble.

[Dappleganger]

27. The problem with our PS 'gifted' program...

is that they are filled with nominally bright children with 2-3 truly gifted children. The teachers teach to the masses and the truly gifted kids are bored to tears and begin to act up. Part of this is the parent's fault for thinking their kid is the smartest thing since sliced bread (and often bully their way into getting their child into the program). The other part of the problem is funding (similar to ESE). Ugh.

[LeftyMom]

56. That was true in ours.

We had some just shockingly bright kids, but for every one of them there were two of the kids who were just smarter-than-average and hard workers. edit: And the ratio was only that good because it was one of the district's two self-contained gifted classes. The other schools had, at best, 45 minutes of gifted "enrichment" which consisted mostly of futzing around on an Apple IIe.

Not knocking those kids, my best friend was definitely one of the latter, but if regular classes weren't geared toward dragging the slower kids kicking and screaming to grade level, they would have been better served in a conventional classroom.

Honestly, and I know this will piss people off, we need some degree of tracking. It's stupid to assume that gifted kids need special attention and special ed kids do but that the 11th to 89th percentiles will all be equally well served by a program geared toward the 50th. There's a hell of a lot of neglected variation in aptitude there, and I suspect if it were properly addressed not only would results improve but there would be a reduction in behavioral issues as well.

[sense]

70. Public School

would work much better if the kids were allowed to work through at their own pace. Everyone having to move through the grades in lockstep is ridiculous.

[LeftyMom]

80. My kid's Dad was in a work-at-your-own-pace program for a few years

Worked well for him at the time, but then they switched programs and he was years ahead of his class again, and more bored than ever.

Good intentions. :shrug:

[XemaSab]

87. Amen, sista.

Especially since one kid can be brilliant in verbal arts but an absolute ignoramus in math, or vice versa.

We don't expect rocket scientists to win Pulitzers and we don't expect professional authors to have advanced degrees in math, so why should we expect kids who can read at a 12th grade level to be able to do calculus? :shrug:

[Lost in CT]

129. Kudos great post and completely on target. nt

[tigereye]

163. I was tracked and benefitted from it (I agree with your 50th percentile

doesn't meet everyone's needs comment), but at the same time lots of other kids could probably have benefitted from the extra time, teachers, attention and challenges that we who were labeled as "gifted" received due to IQ scores, etc. That was in the 70s though, prior to changes in school regulations and laws. We only had gifted classes in math and science in our high school, though. I'm not sure one hour per week for GIfted instruction is best - one of my son's friends is extremely bright (3 years ahead of grade level in math) and he would probably need more than 1 hour per week, which is why his mom moved to a more sophisticated school district.)


I'm curious how you are gauging the levels of giftedness though, and how you think your School District should have done that differently. Many schools have very complex criteria for Giftedness (some too complex in my view) and they don't always test with the test instrument that best indicates Giftedness. (part of my job sometimes is administering IQ tests) It's also interesting because some kids who are Gifted often end up with mental health labels that may not be appropriate, given their Gifted status.

[LeftyMom]

28. I'm a product of the best regarded gifted program in the area.

I know the program inside and out, I actually went before the school board at his age and spoke about it, along with a few classmates. I guess they were impressed, they went from talking about cutting the funding to increasing it.

He'd be bored shitless.

[tigereye]

171. Did he test high enough for more complex programming?

I am always fascinated, for professional and personal reasons, by some of those genius- type programs, the ones with kids who are ready for college when they are 10, or what have you. One of the reasons some of us send our kids to really small private schools...


I also think some of the issues with bored kids is the way the curriculum is approached, failing to pick up on the learning styles/speed of processing of different kids...

[sense]

65. I've met home schoolers like you

Gifted kids are different... not better, try to keep that in mind. Just because my child entered kindergarten in public school reading at least at a 3rd grade level and ready for algebra doesn't mean he's better, as you seem to suggest, but he certainly is gifted. No one wanted to teach him, they simply wanted to teach the curriculum they planned....because kids aren't individuals or anything.....

[Luminous Animal]

71. Just the fact that you feel compelled to label your kid "gifted"

infers that you feel that your kid is better. Otherwise you would simply classify your kid as "different".

[sense]

74. Gifted is not my label

That's the label high iq kids are given. I would certainly use a different word, but then no one would know what I was talking about. My child was labeled gifted in school.

[GoesTo11]

98. Would it be better to say "extremely smart"?

Gifted is a euphemism anyway, and in trying to avoid saying smart, it instead smuggles in some sense of superiority. If gifted, then one has received a gift. A gift from whom? God, presumably. If it was just a matter of drawing a straight flush in the genetic poker game, we would describe people as lucky, not gifted. Well, how about just doing away with the weasel words and instead call a smart kid smart. If someone really is smart, that does mean better at some tasks, but it doesn't mean inherently better (smart and evil is worse than average intelligence and evil). "Different" is a poor descriptor - all extremely smart kids are different (in that they're extremely smart), but not all different kids are extremely smart.

[Luminous Animal]

106. I won't even buy that...

If there were as many children whose parents claim that are gifted, we wouldn't be, like, last in the world in science and math. This whole gifted thing is a crock. It is an excuse to pander to children's complaints of boredom. Boo fucking hoo. I was bored sometimes in class. I read a book.

[GoesTo11]

108. I was talking about the choice of words, not the state of the world.

Some kids really are smart - and that means smarter than average or much smarter than average. Whether we call it gifted or smart, some parents will have a biased view of their children's abilities. And on the other hand, parents in smart families will probably find that every one of their children is "gifted" as are their nieces and nephews, as were they. They go on "Wow, my kid is reading above grade level, writing above grade level, doing math above grade level! Such gifts!" Really, it's not surprising if you were first in your class at Yale Law School that your kids will be reading with comprehension above grade level. Well, I think that hearing day after day that you and everyone in your small circle is gifted would have a corrosive effect. Being aware that your family is smart in various ways is like being aware that your family is athletic or rich or musical, etc.

[sense]

138. Way to dumb down

Try reading the research instead of spouting your own ignorant and uninformed personal views. We are rated very poorly in science, math and most other subjects because our schools suck. Gifted kids are not being taught. When you try to cram the abc's down the throats of kids who've been reading for years, that's just stupid and ensures years of frustration which obliterates their inborn love of learning. Everyone is born curious and eager to learn until we shove them into a system that isolates them from reality and restricts their learning. Schools are broken. It's no one person's fault, but the ruling classes are the ones who perpetuate it's current form because it produces wal-mart workers who do not think or complain. They just follow......

[Critters2]

265. Welcome to DU, where all the kids are above average. nt

[sense]

137. Gifted is not from god

It's genetics. Smart is not a good word, most people would describe themselves as smart. Gifted refers to iq. Like I said, it's not my label. Gifted kids learn easier or quicker in certain areas. No one objects when people talk about gifted athletes.

[tigereye]

179. Gifted can simply mean that your brain works somewhat differently...

not that you are superior, notwithstanding all the arguments about what intelligence actually is...

that's the official term they use, unless there's been some change. Technically it's actually a "disability" in some states and requires an IEP.

[Lost in CT]

130. Maybe her kid is better... at least academically. nt

[demwing]

174. "but, I think" and "I suspect" are the clues that tell us

that everything that follows is speculation.

[Hello_Kitty]

213. Stuff White People Like on gifted children

#16 "Gifted Children"

White people love “gifted” children, do you know why? Because an astounding 100% of their kids are gifted! Isn’t that amazing?

I’m pretty sure the last non-gifted white child was born in 1962 in Reseda, CA. Since then, it’s been a pretty sweet run.

The way it works is that white kids that are actually smart are quickly identified as “gifted” and take special classes and eventually end up in college and then law school or med school.

But wait, aren’t there white people who aren’t doctors or lawyers, or even all that smart?

more...

[sense]

252. Sick

What "white people" are you talking about?

[Hello_Kitty]

263. Click on the website. You never heard of it?

They have a bestselling book now too.

[XemaSab]

20. He's an active kid with a lot of personality

I know from firsthand experience that these are the kinds of kids that public schools tend to serve very poorly.

I'd rather that the kid get individual attention and embark on a unique path than wind up as yet another smart kid dismissed as a failure in the public school system.

[LeftyMom]

25. He's also really interested in the sciences, and public schools neglect them to a shocking degree.

Even when they're not teaching things that are just plain wrong or overlooking huge swaths of the basics, like trying to teach biology without properly explaining evolution, they just don't devote enough time, attention and money to their science programs at any level in K-12.

This is a kid who was reading my college texts over my shoulder at the age of four and actually understanding a lot of what he read, so that wouldn't serve him well at all. The typical science scope and sequence is just not adaptable to a seven year old who can carry on a conversation about shark fossils or identify pictures of the early hominids, or who asked for access to the Hubble Space Telescope for Christmas. :rofl: I was in a very well regarded public school gifted program full of kids like that and even in a self-contained gifted program with daily instruction by a very gifted and comparatively well funded science program* we still weren't being appropriately challenged.

*Our elementary school had a great program with a roving science teacher who went to each classroom and just taught science. I've never even heard of another school doing something similar.

[XemaSab]

33. My private elementary school

had full time science and math teachers.

Science was going to the park and looking at trees and birds, and math was playing with computers and doing logic puzzles.

Formative. Very formative.

I wish there was a way to volunteer at local schools and teach kids about that stuff. :(

[Luminous Animal]

34. Oh lord! This is where your story gets even more hilarious.

He's reading college text books at age four and universities have not been alerted? I think homeschooling may be holding him back!

[XemaSab]

35. I was reading the newspaper at age 4

Let's just say that "reading" in school was a MASSIVE waste of time. :P

[LeftyMom]

39. I tought myself to read at two and a half.

My first grade teacher, who was older than God and had a "system" that she swore by, was LIVID that I'd dared get ahead of the group.

So my Dad asked the school to test me for reading and put me in an appropriate class at that time. I wound up in fifth grade reading, only because they weren't going to bus me anywhere for an hour (I never did find out what I tested in to, but it wasn't elementary level) and the sixth grade teacher didn't want a five year old in her class.

I was still bored.

The next year we moved and I got advanced another grade so that I could be in a self-contained (full day) gifted program. That was a bit better. The reading was still easy- we had to read certain books mandated by the district for our grade level- but we moved through it faster and then we could read whatever we wanted the rest of the time.

[Luminous Animal]

45. Perhaps you should have learned how to spell, as well.

That would be taught. Not tought.

[LeftyMom]

46. Lord knows nobody's ever made a typo 12:30 at night before.

Clearly somebody should call CPS, I must be an unfit parent.

[XemaSab]

49. Typos at 12:30 at night, typos at 6 in the morning!

An editor's work is never done.

:cry:

[XemaSab]

47. From kindergarten through 12th grade

EVERY time a book was assigned I'd be done with it in a night.

Spending a month on books that I'd finished 29 days ago was CRUSHINGLY dull.

And don't get me started on listening to other kids read aloud... Everyone liked me 'cause I'd read my page aloud SUPER fast, and get it over with. :D

But yeah, maybe my problem with math is that I was always sent to the more advanced grades for reading, so I somehow never made it to math class. That's one theory. The other theory is that I got the concepts of addition and subtraction on the first day, so I was bored out of my gourd for the next three years, after which I was totally bored with multiplication and division. :P

[LeftyMom]

50. Same here.

Eventually I had to start making myself skim them again later or I'd make stupid mistakes on tests because I'd read any number of more interesting books since and I didn't remember all of the details anymore.

[XemaSab]

54. Word.

:pals:

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[XemaSab]

55. All I can do in response to your post is LAUGH and LAUGH some more.

:rofl:

[Luminous Animal]

41. So was I.

Doesn't make either one of us gifted. Just a bit smarter than some others. Newspapers are written for the average 9 year old to understand. I'm pretty sure that college text books are a bit out of reach to the average 9 year old.

[XemaSab]

52. The term "gifted" aside...

Why should a kid who knows how to read at a 4th grade level when they're 4 years old spend 5 years sitting in the classroom waiting for their classmates to "catch up?" And then by the time they're in 4th grade and their classmates have ostensibly "caught up" the kid is reading at a high school level...

Here's the deal: I know you're smart. I know you think. Yes, you. And yes, I bet you spent a lot of time in school being totally bored. I'm all in favor of parents with the time and resources sparing their kids the boredom that a lot of elementary school entails for an otherwise bright kid.

And furthermore, I bet if all kids had the kind of individual attention that most homeschooling parents provide, most kids would be able to read at age 4 and most kids would be ready to pursue more interesting things. Like actual reading, instead of learning to read.

Frankly, I think school holds kids back a lot of the time, and a good education system would allow for individual rates of growth and achievement, and at the same time instill in kids a love of learning.

[Luminous Animal]

59. I wasn't bored in school.

Because my parents were active in my education. Yes, I was a precocious reader. But reading is not actually learning. I would read through each and every text book within the first week or two or school but my parents would ensure, with the cooperation of my teachers, that I was actually learning. Outside of the Waldorf school system, that mandates age "appropriate" education, I've never met a teacher who was unwilling to work with a parent to challenge a bright student.

[XemaSab]

68. May I ask where you went to school?

'Cause the schools in Oakland weren't that great. :P

[Luminous Animal]

79. In the most ridiculous

mind-numbing un-academic catholic school in St. Clair, Michigan. My grandparents insisted, my parents were too young and loyal to resist. So, they took matters into their own hands. I have three friends who teach in Oakland. They work their asses off against near insurmountable odds and they go way out of their way to engage their best and brightest. Their greatest obstacles are the parents' cooperation.

[XemaSab]

92. The only thing less popular than faulting the teachers for the poor status of education in the US

is faulting the students.

Most of my teachers in the Oakland public schools were burnouts, and I really can't blame them.

The kids? Were about 75% incipient gang bangers, drug dealers, and hoochies.

Most of the kids did not show up at school ready to learn.

You said that your teacher friends go out of their way to engage the best and brightest?

Most of the teachers I had were just happy to let me sit in the corner and do my own thing while they tried to keep order in the classroom.

I seriously lost about 4 years of my childhood to that school system.

[Luminous Animal]

97. So I assume you failed.

Given that you sat in the corner doing nothing. You must have failed.

[XemaSab]

99. Nah, I passed

Since I didn't cause trouble and I already knew the material from, like, second grade, why wouldn't I? :shrug:

[sense]

82. You should get out more.

They are everywhere.... and their attitude is similar to yours.

[tigereye]

186. Waldorf- there's a whole nother conversation

some of those folks are great, but I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy as a whole. OTOH, I love many aspects of the Montessori framework.

[seabeyond]

115. that isnt how it works. both my sons were 5,6 yrs advance in their reading

reading is done very much on scale to childs ability. they test and they assigned the books to read per test. 3rd grade sons were given 8th grade book list to read. that is what i really liked about public school programming. they knew where the kids were and gave them what they needed.

[sense]

139. You obviously

had much better schools than I've been exposed to. You are very fortunate and I just wish those schools and teachers existed everywhere.

[seabeyond]

224. it isnt just happening in this area, i have heard others on this board

talk about the same programs. it is nationwide.

my point is... the way you bash the schools may not be balanced in your efforts to reinforce the decision for homeshooling above all else.

[sense]

239. Not all schools

I'm not bashing all schools. I'm bashing public ed. It's not designed to educate, it's designed to produce walmart workers who don't think, don't question and just follow. I'm all for a public education that teaches kids to think critically, question everything and research on their own. Unfortunately, that's not what we have in most instances. I'm thrilled that their are some teachers and some schools that are "getting" it. I think when that's not the schools your kids have access to, then you make a different choice for the sake of your children. I'm against all the people who don't have a clue what home schooling entails, who've already closed their minds and who repeat NEA talking points or mythology created by teachers to reinforce that they're the only ones who can educate. I'm for education 24/7 for all of us and for people understanding there are many, many ways to get there.

[seabeyond]

240. It's not designed to educate,... again this is pure bullshit. like helll school isnt designed to

educate. what an utterly stupid comment. again... all the many successful educated people over all these decades that you insist werent educated, but only walmart students. facts do not bare out your claim.

you rant about people talking poorly about homeschooling, as i have not, yet cannot get beyond seeing you are doing the same stupid thing with public school

[sense]

242. Not all schools

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

Do the research. Public education was created by the rich to benefit only them.

We home school for academic reasons because our public schools failed to educate our kids. My experience is not negated because you haven't had the same experience.

[seabeyond]

243. and i dont blanket statement that ALL homeschooling are fundies either.

i dont give a shit about negating your argument, i do call bullshit on your ridiculous sweeping statements such as schools do not educate or whatever the ridiculous comment was as millions have graduated, educated, from public schools

[sense]

249. The problem is that many don't give a shit.....

I'm not making sweeping statements. Read, calmly and digest..... the public school system is broken.... it fails to educate all, as required. They'll take my money and toss my child.

I'm chosing an alternative that works for us.... I'm simply asking that people who do not understand, do not just spread some bizarre belief, based only on their own experience or legend.

[seabeyond]

251. changing your wording. and you really want conversation, dont be condescending.

especially as you change your wording. now it is ..."it fails to educate all, as required" instead of fails to educate. no... they cannot educate all regardless of requirement, cause part of all will always refuse. if this is your standard for the public school system, then it is an absurd standard. again, ridiculous adn cannot willnot be done.

[sense]

256. I'm not changing my wording

Schools fail. Schools fail. Schools fail.

Prove that that means all schools, all the time. And, that I meant that. And that that is all that I said. If you remove words from a sentence they don't make sense.

It's not my standard. It's the law. Look it up! I have never said a word about kids who refuse to learn and have no idea why you would assume that....

I'm not condescending. You have no visual cues to guide you.

[tigereye]

184. there used to be more learn at your own pace programs

that's what we had when i was in junior high. I was rarely bored in any of my classes, and I was "gifted."


I agree with you, though, that schools should strive to allow kids to be excited about learning, to want to learn more, to read ahead, to be as creative as possible. That's how schools "should" be, not simply making sure that everyone is able to pass the same tests.

It's a terrible quandary, since so many kids don't have the basics in place, and struggle to gain them...

[sense]

81. Average?

We were clearly not talking about average children. You really don't get this do you. Gifted. Gifted. Gifted. That word is really messing with your head. It doesn't mean better. It means they learn quicker than most. It's not a slam, just a term. Try to get over it.

[Luminous Animal]

101. What the fuck are you talking about?

I've seen no evidence, other than a self-identified precocious bent for reading, that identifies any child discussed here as "gifted."

[sense]

103. Gifted is a label for high iq children

What is so difficult for you? Try to educate yourself..... before screaming in your limited, abusive vocabulary.

Jealous much????? Gifted. It's a term. You are as bad as the public school teachers we've encountered. They don't believe gifted children exist either. No amount of proof or evidence would convince them either...... get a grip.

[Luminous Animal]

107. If you are

trying to convince your kid's teacher with that sort of sentence structure, then I think they'd have good reason to doubt your definition of "gifted".

[seabeyond]

116. i have never, never seen a single teacher deny that some children are above average in iq and need

to be intellectually stimulated more than the average child. every teacher up to my sons 8th grade has talked about ways to keep his interest. every teacher has recognized it without stumbling over the words. and this is private and publics schools. many teachers.

what an absurd post you wrote.

[sense]

140. Because you've never seen it it doesn't exist??????

Your son was fortunate. Great. Other people experience school and most teachers very differently. My post was absurd? There are plenty of things I've never seen, but I'm quite sure they exist.

[seabeyond]

225. anti children rant out out of control. i dont see or experience. people rant teachers

out of control, i dont experience. yet it is because i am somehow special... gettting special around me all the time that never allows me to experience this stuff that is just rampant in uor society.

no, i dont believe it

[sense]

244. You must have gone to public school

What a bizarre attitude. Each of our experiences are tiny. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Such a simple concept.

[mzteris]

200. just because you haven't seen it,

doesn't mean it isn't the truth.

I have personally experienced it.

[seabeyond]

226. then it is so far from norm. everything about being a teacher today and how they are

taught about children goes against what is being suggest, that teachers deny there are children with higher iqs. that is just not even credible.

[mzteris]

236. oh they don't deny that there "are" children

with higher IQ's, but somehow it's become somehow "shameful" or something. We're not supposed to acknowledge that they're "smarter" - oh-no that's bad, it'll make the OTHER kids feel bad. (Even though, of course they already KNOW the kid is smarter because s/he is so far ahead of them in EVERYTHING . . . )


Oh yeah, and didn't you know that smarter kids don't need differentiation because they're "smart" anyway so they'll "get it on their own"?

:sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

241. somehow "shameful" or something..... more bullshit. n/t

[sense]

250. Obviously your experience differs or you've failed to notice anything beyond

yourself.

Physically gifted is celebrated. Academically gifted is something we're not allowed to speak of.

[seabeyond]

253. beyond myself? this has nothing to do with me. i am not in my school.

they have all kinds of programs to meet the needs of our more academically inclined kids. our middle schools have the advanced pre ap courses. other schools are magnet schools (poorer neighborhoods) which are excellent. our high schools have the ap course and college credit course and one of the high school has another program that is way advanced adn very hard, college courses. we also have a cal for the technically skilled student. all these course, funded with tax money is geared toward the above average iq.

that alone tells you they do speak about it out loud

[sense]

258. You've heard about more rigorous programs....

Therefor, they exist and are doing well everywhere and you've heard all the parents talking about gifted kids in a positive way?

You've admit you're not in the schools.... you've got no experience with the programs, with the gifted children, with all the bullying and harassment...... Ok, then you must be right.

Why are you telling me all this is different and true and that our actual experience is meaningless?

The existence of any of the things you mention is not relevant. The are things. They are not experience and you have no idea how successful any of them are for how many?

[seabeyond]

259. are you in school, or are you an adult. taking classes? what the fuck

i am a parent, .... i am not a child taking classes. doesnt mean i am not a part of the school well aware what is going on. thsoe course are evident that they take the child that needs a harder academic challenge seriously. why you will not even acknowledge this simple effort on part of the school system is so telling

i am only posting on this one cause you are so fuckin confused, or something, but post whatever. i am done

[sense]

260. Who's confused?

Maybe you should go to school.

[mzteris]

237. double post

[sense]

248. You have not met every teacher

I'm not referring to all!!!!!

My son had toxic teachers! More than one. The fact that not all are toxic doesn't mean that all are good.

All public school teachers are required to teach all of their students. Many fail.

Why would I continue to allow what happened to my child? Continuing to do what does not work is insane.

You are not credible when you deny the experience of others to support what you believe.

[mzteris]

204. would you like to see test scores?

Not that they are really any of your damn business (and I suspect you'd be unable to interpret them properly).

Why are you so afraid of the gifted label? Some people ARE just smarter than others. Get over it.

[sense]

267. Uh oh!

I've never seen you..... does that mean you don't exist?

Have you forgotten we're all individuals? That means we all have different strengths and weaknesses, it means some are smarter, some jump higher, some are blue eyed...... and on and on.

[Lost in CT]

132. Depends on the subject... I have seen some that would be perfectly fine

for an average nine-year old.

[LeftyMom]

37. Just over my shoulder.

He sure wasn't understanding anywhere near all of it, but he'd pick up more than one would think.

[sense]

72. Try to learn something

Kids learn to read at all different ages. Mine was reading signs while I drove at less than 2 and reading books at 3. The next child didn't read until he was 8. We're individuals.... you don't really believe that everyone is the same, do you?

We don't all fit into convenient little boxes. Nor should we have to.

[Luminous Animal]

84. No. I do not believe that everyone is the same...

but most of us end up middle class. By the way, my nephew, who is a bona-fide genius, did not learn how to learn to read until he was 10. Then he caught up and went beyond within three weeks. Reading is not the be all to end all.

I am a great advocate of un-schooling. I convinced my sister to send her kids to a "Democratic School". I am acutely aware that children have unique needs when it comes to education. I am also a great advocate for public school. Even though I've homeschooled, I am a regular and vocal attendant at school board meetings. I've worked on school board candidate's campaigns. Public school will be the avenue for education for the vast majority of our population and it behooves us to advocate for the best education for, not only our own children, but for all the children in our community.

[sense]

86. Genius?

I don't know what a bonafide genius is.... and weren't you just calling out others for saying their children read early? Certain they were lying? Make up your mind....

We unschool. Which doesn't mean we don't advocate for better public schools... it just means we've left the system so that our children can recover. I advocated for 4 years within the system. It made no difference to my child. Now I advocate for others, without endangering my own.

[Luminous Animal]

96. I unschooled.

My daughter is now 19 years old. Every single one of her friends are products of a public school education and they are smart, creative, witty, polite, kind, and genuinely interesting people with a broad swath of knowledge and can engage intelligently on multiple subjects. She's been friends with most of them since she was 12 and I've seen no evidence that any one of them were "endangered".

A bona-fide genius is a person that can grasp, articulate, and conceptualize ideas that the rest of us mere human beings can barely imagine.

[sense]

102. Endangered

I happy that you don't know of any children endangered by public school. Sounds like your situation was ideal. Ours was not. You would see no evidence that my son was abused in school either... he simply wouldn't speak of it. Doesn't mean it didn't happen every day. Like I said. He recovered.

Your definition could fit most people I know... I'm pretty sure it used to be defined by IQ. Was just wondering how it's defined, really, now.

[tigereye]

187. it tends to differ by school district where I live

in some it is IQ above 130, in others there is a complex formula that involves IQ and other scores, grades, attitude, activities, etc.


I think as the testing instruments and criteria change, though, the ideas about what IQ ranges really mean, will change what Giftedness means. There was an interesting program on the Learning Channel recently about a researcher who was an expert on Giftedness and Genius. I would guess that more of those research standards will be applied.

[seabeyond]

117. i dont know why one must bash public school to protect decision to homeschool

i dont know why a person cannot say, i homeschool cause it works for me, but i am sure your choice of public works for you and child will receive the education, if he chosees.

why must it be a battle.

i listen to people bash the public school. the child that doesnt learn is the child whose parent hasnt done their job. i am not seeing it in the schools or teachers.

bored. ya... sometimes the kids are. so what, suck it up. it is crap saying homeschooling the child never does a subject he doesnt want. if that is the case, he is missing out on something

i just dont feel the need to make less one decision to make one own decision superior

[sense]

143. Ignorance is no excuse

Home schooling is being bashed by uninformed people who continually repeat myth. I do say that home schooling works for us. We would never have chosen it if the public or private school systems hadn't failed miserably. "The child that doesn't learn is the child who's parent hasn't done their job" Mythology repeated by the NEA and teachers nationwide. People lie.

You are twisting my words to suit your message. It would be crap to say that "the child never does a subject he doesn't want", but those are your words and don't remote resemble what I said.

Try reading the research before repeating what you've been taught by the public school system. Try getting out of the box they've stuffed you in.

I'm not saying that home schooling is for everyone or that if you don't choose it, then I'm superior. You are choosing to believe what you want regardless of truth. Try to see others who are different than you as just that, different. Not better or worse, just different. We are all individuals and we all have our own experiences. Just because someone's experience is different than yours does not mean they must be lying about it, it just means it was different.

I'm happy for all the people for whom the system works. I think that it doesn't work for many and if you can't recognize that one size does not fit all in school as in everything else, perhaps your learning was stunted at a very early age.

[tigereye]

190. you made a reasonable argument and then you had to get the ad hominem

in right at the end... Funny how often that tends to happen around here.


I think that everyone should make the choice that makes sense for them and benefits their kids. I know a lot about schools due to my profession, and have worked in a number of public and private schools. I know their pros and cons pretty well, and I also know a number of home schoolers, whose kids are well-served by that framework. I chose a small private school for my kid based on that knowledge and what I thought would work best for him, his temperament and learning needs.


I think seabeyond's point was that there doesn't have to be an us and them, you are right and you are wrong mentality, or a blame mentality to this debate. :shrug:
Also all kids should be happy, creative and nurtured learners, that is what all schools should strive to be.

[seabeyond]

229. i tried the private. thought about homeschooling and chose public for my childrens

personality and what they needed. you are right.

but you clarified my posts so well. thank you.

[seabeyond]

227. no it is not mythology by nea. it is obvious observation from a parent in the system.

i watch the children and classmates as they advance in the school years and i see the students that learn and the ones that dont. i see the parents that are on their kids ass and the parent that is proud they never pick up a book.

i have listened to the homeschoolers tell me there kid is styled to schooling ergo never bored. i dont believe that at all. of course there are times in homeschooling the child would rather do otherwise. now there are a lot of advantages to homeschool. can get a lot more learning in a much shorter, concentrated period.

nobody has stuffed me in any box and i am well informed in homeschool. you try opening your mind a bit to there are all kinds of opportunities for all kinds of people that will work for some and not for all. but none is inherently bad. it is the experience and how it is done to what the result will be.

but of course that is what you are endlessly saying which is why i am challenging you on your inept blanket statements. homeschooling is the only way cause schools are crap, wont recognize children with higher iq and make all kids read at kindergarten level to stay with the very worst reader, of course that is what you are suggesting that your position is superior. you are the one lacking the ability to even be a little flexible enough to understand that public schools do an excellent job for millions of students. not a few, not hundreds, but millions of people have succeeded with public school. are you suggesting that your posts acknowledge this?

i dont believe you are happy for the people whom the systems works since you refuse to even acknowledge them.

i am not opposed to homeschooling. i know people doing it and considered doing myself cause i bought in to the horrors of public. i was educated.... but the poster you are arguing with isnt opposed to homeschooling either. they did it themselves.

both that post and i are arguing your unreasonable and untrue bashing of public. and you say we are not open minded?

[sense]

247. I never said home schooling was the only way.

It's not! What I have said repeatedly is that it's a viable option and can work very well. Public school can work very well! In our case, as I've said endlessly, it didn't work and we found a better way.

I watched and participated in public school for years. That doesn't mean I know what is best for anyone else's kid, just my own.

****************
"i have listened to the homeschoolers tell me there kid is styled to schooling ergo never bored."

****************

I don't understand that sentence......

I'm not remotely suggesting that home schooling is the only way and you can't find that or anything close to it in anything I've written.

You say that public schools do an excellent job for millions? Well, have you looked at the population? How many billion of us are there? I survived public school. That's all. That is all many people do, they just get through it. Public implies that the schools are there to educate all. They fail to do that. When they fail, there are viable options. Chose one. If it doesn't work for you, chose another.

********************
"i dont believe you are happy for the people whom the systems works since you refuse to even acknowledge them."
**********************

Feel free to "believe" what you like. I'm not suggesting you change your belief system.....

*******************

"cause i bought in to the horrors of public."

******************

Your own words.

[mzteris]

207. Why must people bash homeschooling?

Generally the reason "we are bashing" is not just to say it, but to try and make people understand how desperately BAD PS was for our children.

The funny thing is, generally speaking, homeschoolers have had experience with the PS system, while those bashing hs'ing haven't had one scintillas worth of experience with or knowledge of hs'ing. Beyond possibly knowing someone whose cousin's neighbor's sister did and they do a crappy job. :eyes:


And for you to say that "the child that doesnt learn is the child whose parent hasnt done their job" is absolutely asinine!

My son had a teacher who refused to speak to him at the instruction of the principal. She was pissed that I filed a complaint against her with school board because the accommodations outlined in his IEP weren't being followed.

His other teacher that year (he was in a 2nd/3rd grade split) did little more than admonish him for "confusing the other kids" with information about subjects he "wasn't supposed to know yet". . . he spent the majority of his time in her room sitting in the corner reading a book because he already knew what she was teaching and she didn't "have time to differentiate just for him".

[seabeyond]

228. find any post of mine bashing homeschooling. one....

not gonna. i dont feel the need. i am all for your chosing to homeschool, go for it, works for you. and your child out of the classroom and being homeschooled sounds like works the best for all around.....

[mzteris]

238. did I say you did?

You asked a question, and I was explaining it to you.

Besides, I'm sure you can't help but notice that the vast majority on here DO bash homeschoolers - all without really knowing a damn thing about it.

[Luminous Animal]

26. Pretty much every kid is active with a lot of personality.

I've rarely met a kid that wasn't chocked full of both.

[XemaSab]

29. And making all kids sit at a desk for 6 hours?

Bogus. x(

[Luminous Animal]

36. Indeed. And what have you done to change the school system

that is designed to quash the curiosity and exuberance of 90-95% of our youth?

[XemaSab]

40. I graduated and got the hell out of there.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

83. I relate to all your posts about being in school. When I was 16,

I didn't graduate but escaped my high school and went to junior college. What a fricken relief that was.

[sense]

85. Odd

You admit that it's a horrible place for most children and yet, you just can't deal with others recognizing that and making a different choice..... or is it you just can't deal with anyone learning quicker than you do..... oh yeah... gifted, gifted, gifted....

[Luminous Animal]

104. I've never said it was a horrible place for most children.

In fact, most of the children that I know get the best out of their academic experience in school. I did homeschool my daughter but not for the reasons you think I did. I didn't homeschool her because I lacked confidence in the school system's academic possibilities but rather, because of my apprehension of the negative socialization. It was a totally selfish decision. I was hideously hounded in school and wanted to protect my daughter from a similar experience. The homeschooling group that we joined was refreshingly nonjudgmental. I always told her that she could go to school any time she wanted; and, around 7th grade, she almost went but changed her mind.

But, I do have to laugh at this movement to remove children from school because they are too "gifted" to benefit from a public education. Over the years, I've been acquainted with these "too gifted" children and have seen them grow up to be regular ol' adults.

[sense]

145. Then what was this?

"Indeed. And what have you done to change the school system

that is designed to quash the curiosity and exuberance of 90-95% of our youth?"


*************************************

Sounds horrible to me.

You know nothing about gifted children or anyone different than you. You're just repeating hogwash. Ignorance must be bliss.

"But, I do have to laugh at this movement to remove children from school because they are too "gifted" to benefit from a public education. Over the years, I've been acquainted with these "too gifted" children and have seen them grow up to be regular ol' adults."

Again, these are your words, not mine. Gifted people are all around, they're just not walking around with signs around their necks. Is that what you would need to put everyone into their appropriate box?

[tigereye]

193. well, that's that old factory model - and kids aren't widgets

One size does not fit all. You would think we would have figured that out by now.

There was an interesting article in last week's Sunday? NYT about designing chairs for kids so they don't have to sit, they can move around and fidget. A teacher designed them. It would be really interesting to find out that kids actually learn better and process better when they can fidget, given all the complaints for years about "fidgety kids." :rofl:

One of the heads of my son's school was very hyperactive as a kid, and he told us that the teacher told him that as long as he stood in the back and didn't bother others, he could fidget all he wanted. He now has a Doctorate in Education.

[sense]

255. It may be the old factory model,

it's the one I and many other's experience. Sadly.

There is an enormous amount of research about what works best and it would be great if the findings were instituted........ until that happens in our area, we make different choices.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aroach]

43. Pleased to meet you

I find I do better in my pajamas.

[sense]

60. It sucks here too.

We home school. Best decision we ever made!

[qanda]

91. Same here.

[K Gardner]

222. I homeschooled last year. When I sent him back to public a few months ago, he was a couple grades

ahead of what they were teaching him and totally bored. He does nothing but "benchmarking and prepping for TCAPs" (standardized testing).

I will probably homeschool again next year.

[sense]

272. Cool! Glad to hear it!

That is typically what happens when you home school then try to put them back in..... It's very revealing.

[Maru Kitteh]

3. Public school. Money would go to tutors as needed and enrichment experiences

If money were no object, every vacation would be a rich, educational experience embraced in many parts of the world.

[sandnsea]

5. I trust the public schools

for the most part. Except parts of Nevada. oh my goodness.

[SoCalDem]

6. I could NEVER have home-schooled mine.. I have NO patience

and looked forward to them going to school:)..as did they:)

[Hekate]

17. Let's put it this way: I never wanted to be a classroom teacher, either. I don't have the skillset

I think kids learn a ton more things in a good school than the 3 Rs, including how to get along with a variety of people.

Hekate

[sense]

90. Actually, they only learn to deal

with kids their own age in a crowd situation. Home schooled kids are not in an artificial environment that restricts their access to so many things. They are out in the real world every day interacting with all different ages and types of people... it's a much healthier and more productive way to learn how to get along in the world than be socialized by 30 other 5 year olds. Home schooling isn't just kids sitting around the kitchen table with mom reading the bible.... it's so much more... There are as many ways to home school as there are children. What could be better than a program created just for you... you get to learn what you want to learn, when you want to learn it. The best way to retain and use your education.

[EFerrari]

51. Me, either. Not for young children in a classroom. Too much going on.

I can do older teen agers and adults easily but a grade school classroom makes me want to eat paste in the closet. lol

If money were no problem, though, it would have been so much fun to be there when my kids got home from school instead of us all hitting the door famished and beat at dinner time. That was difficult and required a lot of retooling before we got it right. Yikes.

[SoCalDem]

62. I was able to "be there" and it was great

Being home when they first get there after school is when they are all keyed up to tell you everything that happened, and that's how you meet their friends too,, When I did go back to work, I was lucky to have a job that allowed me to schedule myself, and I always made sure I did not work past 1PM..

and I quit working when oour youngest was a sophomore in high school.. He was a multi-sport athlete, and played Club Soccer on weekends, so there was not time for me to work.. I was determined to go to his sports events..:)

we had more money when I worked, but there are always trade-offs, so we cut back:)

[Hekate]

69. That's what I really wanted the money to do: be home when they got home. It was crazy-making...

... for us all to have such long, long days. By the time we were having dinner at night, school was a long time over and my little boy and girl couldn't tell me much about it. It was Christmas before I found out my son's kindergarten teacher was having a nervous breakdown (for real :cry: ) and that was why he was not in the reading group and was constantly in time-out. After school care was a continual worry.

By the time I was remarried and able to cut my work schedule to the bone, my son was in 4th grade and my daughter in 6th grade.

I wish I could do it again and have the after school activities, PTA, having their friends over so I could actually get to know them -- but home schooling? Never. Not all of us are temperamentally suited to that.

Hekate

[EFerrari]

76. I missed all kinds of stuff when I was working so much, too.

Both of my sons had big reading problems and I didn't even KNOW because they were both so smart. The youngest was always on a time out, too, and I didn't have the time or education to figure out that it was because he was frustrated. ARGH! The older one did better but got pegged as an "underachiever" when all he needed was a more rested and aware mom and an IEP. I still hate Ronald Reagan for that, in addition to all the other reasons I hate him.

I went back to school when they were in 5th and 2nd and life got much better. Poorer but overall, much better. It probably cost me my retirement but it was worth it to be able to really parent those children and not just tow them around like pull toys for the rest of their childhood.

[BlooInBloo]

8. Anything to prevent education majors from infecting my kid with Teh Stupid virus.

[ContinentalOp]

10. God, I hope that's not genetic.

My condolences if it is.

[BlooInBloo]

123. Spoken like an education major...

What, is a virus supposed to embed itself between a C-G bond or something?

Thanks for providing an excellent example of what I want to minimize my kids' exposure to.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Luminous Animal]

12. Really? You think that education majors are stupid?

Cool! A real live victim of Reagan era brainwashing!

[sense]

93. Read the statistics on Sat scores correlated with teaching majors....

He's right!

[BlooInBloo]

124. Look at their GRE scores. They're dim - it's a known fact...

The other poster says to look at their SATs - I'll take his or her word for it. Low SATs are certainly to be expected, by my lights, since one would expect the two scores to be correlated.

[tigereye]

195. how many "dim" people take GREs? Seriously.

SATs are only one measure of skill. Why bash teachers- many are wonderfully skilled and kind folks. It's that kind of attitude that is exasperating. High scores don't necessarily guarantee any level of skill in any profession.

:shrug:


Do you blame engineers, and lawyers, and doctors too?

[BlooInBloo]

201. Their *brightest* take GREs. And their brightest are fucking dim....

It only gets worse when you look at their average.


EDIT: "the" -> "their".

[tigereye]

206. what are you basing this on?

Which average are you talking about? The mean, the mode, the median of GRE or SAT scores? Why do you think that that is the best way to analyze teaching skills?

[BlooInBloo]

209. (facepalm)

[tigereye]

214. way to clarify your point...

have a nice evening.

[last_texas_dem]

113. How many teachers are "education majors" anyway?

I know that in Texas, college students planning to teach major in the subject area that they wish to teach, in addition to being required to take classes in education or becoming certified through an alternative procedure. And TX isn't exactly the most forward-thinking state when it comes to matters of education...

And anyway, I don't subscribe to the idea that someone who is deeply knowledgeable in the subject matter that they are teaching will necessarily be a more effective teacher than a "stupid" education major. I had some college professors who seemed to be very intelligent but weren't particularly great at explaining the material to the students- and they likely wouldn't have lasted very long in a public school classroom.

[BlooInBloo]

126. Subject matter knowledge is a necessary, not sufficent condition for teaching....

I've never suggested otherwise. It does help to know the difference between the two sorts of conditions, however.

[last_texas_dem]

169. Fair enough

The part of my post referencing those who believe content knowledge is essentially all it takes to be a good teacher was more of a general remark directed at some of those in the world of education (Bush's former secretary of education Rod Paige comes to mind) who have made statements along these lines, I believe, largely for the purpose of attacking the profession. I should have clarified that I wasn't necessarily including you among those subscribing to that view.

[MadHound]

233. Aw BnB, always jumping for that broadbrush aren't you

Do you really want to compare GPA's, IQ's and other such standard measures. I'm willing to put down a large sum of money that as an Ed. Major, I'd beat you out without even trying.

Furthermore, you're only measuring one, perhaps two types of intelligences, yet teachers have to also do well in more than two, and really now, how does one measure interpersonal intelligence? I'm sure that if we could, yours would be quite low.

Sorry, but your broadbrush attacks are sadly typical. I do grant you that there are some stupid people in education, much like there are stupid people in any profession. However if you really want to attract the best and the brightest to the field, then pay the big bucks that will attract them.

[ContinentalOp]

9. Public school of course. Any good parent "homeschools" anyway.

School is for socialization.

[sense]

94. Yikes!

Who would want their child "socialized" by 30 other 5 year olds??? And really..... if it's only for socializing, then let's call it child care...

[lostnfound]

109. It takes up too many hours, both in school and for homework

IMHO kids learn better with mostly-self-directed study under the guidance of a tutor or mentor. That way they learn to think actively. The socialization provided in school might be fine if it was limited to half-days, but there are many years where kids are like caged chickens stuck in a classroom for 7 hours, 6 hours of which are stuff the kid already knew OR 6 hours of stuff the kid wasn't ready for because each develops at their own pace.

"The primary purpose of education is to instill a sense of subservience in the young." Spoken by Cubberley or one of the other founders of the Education trust when America's factory schools got started around 1900-1910.

Where is the increasing freedom and increasing responsibility occurring in the current school system? Only within the confines of a term paper or selection of material -- not at all in the actual nature or structure of classroom supervision. If I turn my kid over to a Montessori preschool every day, I expect the child to learn to put away his own toys, select work, pour a glass of milk, clean a table, etc. Turning a kid over as an apprentice for a couple of years once resulted in a young man able to build a wagon on his own.
School itself is an unhealthy antisocial environment when kids of the age of 15 can't be trusted not to harm each other or themselves if left alone for an hour or two. They have no chance to be of useful service to others during their entire school day, and their own feelings of uselessness contribute to the problem.

Isn't this the goal of childhood -- to help them become independent? Doesn't seem to be working very well if a 15 year old can't be trusted to get up and go to the restroom without permission. They can learn certain self-respect and responsibility by age 5 in the Montessori preschool, but they unlearn it by age 10.

[sense]

146. Yes!

Thank you. Your points are well made and well thought out. I wonder if anyone will actually consider them instead of just defending the status quo.

There's HOPE!

[tigereye]

196. good points!

[lostnfound]

220. Thanks. It occurs to me that '5 classes per day of 25 kids' is a way to preclude trust.

While it's nice for kids to be taught by subject matter experts in various subjects, there seems to be an anonymity occurring (intentionally) at the big schools, even in lower grades. One advantage of the old one-room schoolhouse for developing responsibility was that the teacher really got to know the students and whether or not they could be trusted (to fetch the water or clean the chalkboards or whatever). The preschool Montessoris also have a teacher concerned with a child's development over a period of 3 years, all day long. The age mix is something else they have in common, with theoretically speaking, the older kids being asked to help the younger ones.

Contrast with the public elementary where my son went last year, where there were 5 classrooms full of each grade level. It wasn't TOO bad because they don't do quite as much rotation in 1st grade, but there was such anonymity at the school. I wonder how a teacher gets a chance to have much of an impact on their students when they see them for only one period per day, and often only for one year. The thoughtful attention you can give to character development in 25 individuals vs 125 individuals can't be the same. And surely character development is at the root of many of the academic problems.

[Odin2005]

144. School is for learning. The "socialization" argument is a load of crap.

[johnaries]

152. Having worked with someone who was home-schooled

and was so completely socially inept she alienated the entire department - it's not crap.

[Odin2005]

159. And you know that was because of homeschooling HOW?

Kids DO socialize outside of school, you know. :eyes:

[sense]

268. You know one home schooled person and you base

your argument on that one thing you know about them? Glad you studied that issue.....

[Name removed]

308. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

11. I totally worried about money but homeschooled anyway...

So did most of the parents in my homeschooling group. My husband and I made huge sacrifices to homeschool our daughter. Sacrifices that have repercussions to this day... 20 years later. Most of our contemporaries are way ahead of us career-wise and retirement-wise.

To be clear, we did not homeschool because of our lack of confidence in teachers. We have many teachers who are friends AND some of the parents in our homeschooling group taught in public schools. Teachers were our greatest allies and a huge asset. We lacked confidence in the administration.

[greenkal]

18. And money is why it should be illegal!

It's unfair that some parents cheat and steal enough to afford to be able to teach their children at home while honest hard working Americans obviously can't afford to do the same.

[LeftyMom]

19. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of my idling Jaguar.

:eyes:

[XemaSab]

21. Saturn, Jaguar, Rolls, Bentley...

I and my 1987 Yugo reject your capitalist bourgeois elitist middle class running dog pig mobile. :P

[LeftyMom]

32. You drive a Toyota, you America-hating union destroyer.

[XemaSab]

38. Just because there is a Japanese car parked in the driveway

that you have seen me driving and that I may have used to give YOUR capitalist running dog car a jump start with doesn't mean it's MY car. :hide:

And don't go thinking the Honda Element is my car either. :hide:

I will have you know that my mom's name is on BOTH titles, and since I have rejected her capitalist middle class upbringing, the cars that she chooses to buy with her capitalist "salary" have nothing to do with me. :hide:

Oh, and on edit: The BMW may have been mine, but since it is no longer mine, I have obviously repudiated the implied lifestyle that it brought with it. :hide:

[greenkal]

24. And how did you pay for it?

Honestly? Ummmm....

Anyway why are you bragging here about what kind of car you drive? That's pretty sick of you.

[LeftyMom]

30. I paid for it with my sarcastic wit.

I actually drive an aging Saturn wagon.

[tigereye]

198. aha

:rofl: good one!

[Dappleganger]

31. WTH?

No, we just lived with crappy cars and a tiny house and yard sale clothes for a LONG time so I could stay home. We also swapped homeschool materials with friends, bought used books via the internet (my favorite vegetarian website has a HUGE homeschool swap board), bought books at yardsales as well as borrowed tons of library books. We made a ton of sacrifices and never cheated or stole a dime from anyone.

You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.

[Hekate]

89. Did you forget the sarcasm smiley?!

Yow.

Hekate

[sense]

95. Got venom?

What a bizarre and ridiculous accusation.

[Thothmes]

114. Maybe some of them just work very hard and earn it.

[Sanctified]

133. I homeschool 2 children and make just above poverty level.

It's not that people can't afford homeschooling, it's they don't want to sacrifice or are too lazy to do it.

[Dappleganger]

22. We've homeschooled each of our four kids from time to time.

17 yr. old daughter was homeschooled K-4th grade.
15 yr. old son was homeschooled K-3, then again 5th grade.
12 yr. old daughter was homeschool K-2nd.
11 yr. old son was only homeschooled for 2nd and 3rd grade.

We didn't do this for religious reasons at all (and yes, I have a degree in teaching albeit secondary school English/history). Where we used to live in VA in a rural area the schools were horrible and the bus ride over and hour long, so that's how we started. We attended a weekly secular HS club for socialization, then had monthly field trips with several other families. Our kids were the ones sitting in front of the Manet, Renoir and Monet paintings with their sketch pads and colored pencils, copying the masters in their own way (this was before they stopped allowing backpacks inside). The guards used to tease my friends and I about how well they were behaved, and visitors would often comment on their work while our kids continued to draw. We always had a heavy emphasis in art education, with the girls in particular showing real talent and continue to pursue those efforts.

When we moved down here to FL we found a decent school district and enrolled them all. The transition went very smoothly due to the principal being so open to parent participation. One year our youngest daughter had an ex-homeschool mom as a teacher--she was the best!

We have had some problems with our oldest son who is highly gifted, especially in the elementary school. Bringing him back home for awhile allowed him to push ahead at his own accelerated pace while working on his organizational and writing skills. The transition into middle school went smoothly. The youngest son had some health problems which required him to stay home so we made the most of that, too. He's really enjoying school this year.

IMO being an ex-homeschooler has made me a better parent and has helped both my husband and myself to be far more understanding with their teachers. I also feel that we understand our children's learning styles MUCH better, as well as their strengths and weaknesses. It also goes without saying that we don't leave all of the education up to teachers, but continue to supplement at home according to each child's interests and needs.

Yes, there are plenty of HS nuts. In particular, I am always dismayed whenever meeting or reading about negligent schooling (and parenting), abuse, hyper-religiosity and alienation from others. IMO there should be an exceptional amount of accountability for homeschoolers, not less. However, I do think that HS parents should have exceptional amount of freedom in being able to choose their methods. I've personally met many HS'ing families who were doing this because their schools weren't able to address their child's needs, and my full support is behind parents who try to undertake this. Right now my own sister is homeschool her younger son with Aspergers' syndrome, and it is extremely difficult. Unfortunately his local school couldn't help him at all (a classroom is input overload). He is taken to therapy twice a week as well as to a behaviorist, but he is improving. They hope he'll be able to integrate back into a regular classroom when he's a little older.

[aroach]

42. I do homeschool my kids.

Have for five years now.

[BamaGirl]

44. If there was an affordable

secular private school available, I'd take it in a heartbeat. My middle school daughters have science a whole two days a week. And it's more ideology than science. The other three days they have social studies, which, you guessed it, is also more ideology than anything else. More than once I've got a phone call or letter about my daughters disagreeing, respectfully, with their teachers. My seventh grader's social studies teacher has convinced 1/3 of his class that the First Amend. doesn't guarantee separation of church and state. Emma is my kid, thankfully, and she calls him on this crap lol. But if I had a better option? Hell yeah, I'd take.

[Hippo_Tron]

61. Depends on the school district

Where I grew up we had some of the worst public schools in the country and thus I'm glad my parents had the means to send me to private school. That said I absolutely HATED (and still do) the stuck up assholes that were my classmates. Socially I would've fared much better in any decent public school. Plenty of my friends in college went to public schools and I am no better off than they are.

[mwooldri]

67. Agreed x2.

I was fortunate however - I went to a good State school system. Later on, the primary schools I went to as a kid became more autonomous from the local education authority (partly as a move to ensure its survival and that it didn't get closed) - and is doing very well thank you very much. Schools in my hometown area were such that the teachers remember teaching the parents of the students coming through on plenty of occasions.

Right now, I just have to be careful about the school my son goes to. Our assigned schools are OK: not the best but not the worst, though the elementary school is quite good.

[xxqqqzme]

75. We homeschooled our daughter because

the public schools in West Virginia (Webster County) totally sucked!

[LeftyMom]

77. A friend of mine who lives in WV is trying to get pregant right now.

She miscarried a few months back, but she started talking about moving as soon as the test was positive, because she flat out refuses to put a kid through the school system there. She's in Weston and she says the schools there are just unbelievably bad.

[xxqqqzme]

128. and it was/is

the fundy religious attitude I objected to as much as the turn of the century (as in 1900) teaching philosophy. My daughter had good 1st & 2nd grade teachers but we could see it was going to be down hill after that.

[eridani]

100. I'd do part-time homeschooling

On one of my other lists, a homeschooler made a very perceptive comment: "Why can't public schools be more like public libraries, that is, educational resources that people can use as much or as little as they want?"

[seabeyond]

120. a parent should be doing part time homeschooling anyway for child to be successful in public

schools

this is my point. cause a parent sends a child to school, it doesn't mean they are done. the school cannot give all the child needs to be successful, and they cannot be the only motivating factor in the child's life for that kid to grab the opportunity to learn that public schools offer.

it is only an offer of an education, there for a child

but kids being what they are, the majority are not self motivated and they need the parents attention and continual participation to motivate them

and schooling.... we are constantly reinforcing our children's education here at home and taking it beyond what they are learning in school on a continual basis. striving for the critical thinking consistently

[TWiley]

105. Life is about learning to interact with all kinds of people.

It is not about being sheltered behind mom's apron. There are all types in this world, and the sooner we can identify those and make sane choices, then the better off we will be in the long run. I don't understand how homeschooling addressses this important need.

[sense]

149. Then do the research

Hiding behind mom's apron? Home schooling is a misnomer. We're never home. We are out in the community learning 24/7. We are not locked away in a room with one adult and 35 kids of the exact same age! Most home schoolers do not sit around the kitchen table with mom all day. My "home schooled" son is 18, has three years of college credit, speaks 6 languages and loves learning most of all! I couldn't possibly have taught him all that he knows. I speak one language. I also went to public school. :-(

I don't think of myself as my children's teachers so much as their advocates. I facilitate their learning. There are enormous amounts of opportunities in the community, online and all around us that they can take advantage of because they're not locked away for 6 hours a day and their love of learning is not being stifled. They are critical thinkers who get along with everyone because they know what's expected from them everywhere, not just in a classroom setting.

http://homeschooling.about.com/od/socialization/a/socialchallenge.htm

[timtom]

110. My general attitude toward public education

has been way, way down since I left high school (1960). Teaching to standardized tests, for example, is absolute bunk! On similar threads yesterday, the notion of teaching critical thinking came up (I wish I remember by whom).

Kinda like the way Socrates taught.

[dcindian]

112. Why is it always the worker blamed for the downfall of a company?

We love to blame the lower rung people in this country. The big guys never get the blame and we can never blame ourselves. It is no mistake when you go to awards night at school that it is always the same families year after year with the top students. And no not all the students of these families are child prodigies.

I have three in public schools.

Well actually just two now since my oldest went to Duke. We have pretty lackluster schools in this part of New York since I live in one of the poorest if not the poorest county in the state. No good private schools nearby and I am not rich enough to send them to one anyway.

My wife and I have never seen anything but A's from all my children every single year in every single class. My children vary by a good margin in their intelligence but have been taught at a very early age to find the answers themselves and if they need help we teach them how to find the answers.

Our family is very aggressive in belittling the anti teacher shows and firmly believe that education is top priority. It is not what the school pumps into your child but what your child wants to get out of school.

My son has told me that he is behind other students at Duke who went to private schools or larger and better public schools. Which is something one must expect but we all deal with what we have and try to make the most of it.

So for me it's public schools I have no doubt that I would fail as a teacher be it for other children or my own. Maybe my wife could do it but diversity of ideas is too important I think to isolate your child from society.

And I am positive that it is not "bad teachers" that hold our education system back. It is America's societal anti education ideal pumped into the willing and the lazy by the mass media. It is the bad parent who did not set up a positive educational outlook for their children looking to blame teachers for something that they themselves had been too lazy to do.

So all the teacher haters keep on going. Keep on picking on the smart kid or laughing every time a teacher is belittled in a show. keep on blaming the bottom rung for what the pushers and the movers are doing wrong. And the families that get it will continue to enjoy the lack of competition and thank you all for all the scholarships their children get.

[sense]

150. Your argument is that your experience negates all others?

Straight A's are very common in public school. Most kids get them. Hmmmmm that would suggest that A is now the new C. Grade inflation is rampant in schools and colleges. Your son states that he's behind other students at Duke? Big red flag. Those weren't A's he got.

Isolation? The majority of home schoolers are not near as isolated as children locked away for 6 hours a day and then weighed down with redundant homework in the evening. The only time my child experienced a dearth of "diversity of ideas" was when he took some classes at a publicly funded, yet overtly christian, resource center.

As to people being able to teach. If you don't bring home the school construct anything is possible and you are free to facilitate your and their learning in any way that works for you.

You are positive? That means you're done learning about it. Not open to other possibilities. Done. Sad. Again, your experiences negates all others.

You think home schooled children aren't eligible for Scholarships? Wow! Try to educate yourself. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[dcindian]

172. That is so sad you took what your wrote out of my response.

So utterly sad but predictable.

Of course my experience is not the same as every one's or the only one, but with three great kids and awesome students I am happy with it.


Your right my son who scored over 1500 old style and over 2200 new on his SAT's didn't earn a single grade congrats for attacking him.

[sense]

175. Your?

Yes, it's sad.

Here is what you said:

"And I am positive that it is not "bad teachers" that hold our education system back. It is America's societal anti education ideal pumped into the willing and the lazy by the mass media. It is the bad parent who did not set up a positive educational outlook for their children looking to blame teachers for something that they themselves had been too lazy to do."

Painting with a broad brush. Very predictable. The bad parent? Too lazy? Parents who choose to spend time with their children are lazy?

We are not talking about your personal experience, yet that is all you think matters. I'm attacking your son? Are you nuts?

Facts. Try some.

[Midlodemocrat]

118. I am a big proponent of the public school system.

We could easily send them to private schools, but I choose not to do that. I did homeschool two of them for a year each because of inadequacies in the public schools.

Site based management is the problem. ELiminate site based management, make administrators accountable and education will practically fix itself.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

119. Depends where I lived.

Some public schools are excellent, others are not even adequate.

[aikoaiko]

121. If I lived ina better school district I would trust public schools, but otherwise private schools

Its not good here.

[MissB]

122. No.

I just started working again after being off for nearly a decade. I.e. - I was a stay at home parent. We are financially stable enough to choose private school if that is what we wanted for the kids.

The public school here is wonderful. I cannot begin to say enough about the teachers and other staff at the district. Both dh and I are products of the public school system. We're both well educated (at least one engineering degree each) and successful in our careers.

I did initially think about homeschooling, but I'm not teacher material. It takes a very special person to choose that career path.

edited to add: Both of my kids are TAG students. Their school has gone above and beyond, at times shifting several grades' schedules to accomodate their needs.

[seabeyond]

125. millions and millions over the years successful thru public school system....

millions have used the public school system and we say it is a failure.

i dont get this attack on public schools. if it is the districting, then probably the issue isn't the school itself.

i have had boys in 4 different schools. been impressed with them all and the curriculum is beyond what we did and 4 decades ago.

[sense]

151. Check our ratings in science and math against other countries

We are failing our children.

[ieoeja]

160. Stats I've seen show us pretty much right in the middle of industrialized nations.

Given that:

o we have the most diverse population,

o over 10% of our population comes from families who were denied quality education (segregation) until the last couple generations,

o we are the most religious of those countries, and

o one of our two major political parties openly proclaims "too much education is a bad thing"

then I have to conclude that our schools are doing pretty fucking okay.

[sense]

165. sad.

[seabeyond]

230. the education is there and waiting for the kids. so... why are the kids not chosing these fields.

it isnt cause they dont have the opportunity. it is because they are not chosing these courses.

[sense]

269. Oh, my god.

It is because they're missing out on opportunities.... have you forgotten what you're arguing about????

The education is not there waiting..... It's not that the kids don't choose the right field!

Now you're blaming the kids for the public school system?

[seabeyond]

287. right. silly me. schools dont have math and science course and our colleges certainly lack

math and science.

wtf is your problem that you think the schools dont have these course offered to the student.

kinda like you refuse to believe all the advanced course and programs offered to students that excel. so much easier to pretend it isnt there so you can blindly adn stupidly bash the schools

[sense]

298. Why are you lying?

You are not remotely comprehending what I've said and I'm starting to think it's on purpose. That way you won't have to consider that you could be mistaken in your thinking or lacking in the ability to consider having "beliefs" that are based on fact.

Of course, beliefs aren't usually considered fact, so perhaps that's not it.

[seabeyond]

300. i say the courses are there if student wants it. you say the courses arent there

you tell me what the problem is???

ah, dont even bother. you have regressed so, waste of time

[rebecca_herman]

211. I don't think it's a failure in general

But not all kids are the same and I do think there are some kids who are just different in some way and a school that has to teach many children isn't going to be able to deal wtih every single potential special need a child might have.

I was homeschooled for a few years because none of the schools in my area could meet the mental health needs I had as a child. My parents saw I was suffering and sick in school and took me out so I could be in an environment that was better for me as an individual. After my experience I cannot say that a public school can work for every child. There are always going to be some kids that are so far out of the norm the school just can't help all of them while teaching the rest of the kids.

[seabeyond]

231. that is my point. of course it is not a failure in general, and we have so been programmed

to say public school is failure, though intellectually, and common sense, and facts shows us this just is not true.

and of course there are children that shine much brighter out of the environment and in a homeschool environment. i am all for it. i considered it for my oldest for a period in lower grades. i considered, checked it out, and "risked" public when i pulled kids out of private instead of homeschooling. i was surprisingly happy with results.

i know a handful of people homeschooling and would never suggest otherwise for them. works for them. and cool.

[hamsterjill]

127. Never.

I would never home school my children.

I believe that it's important that children become socialized, learning how to get along and accept people who are both like them and not like them, learning how to handle themselves amongst others, etc. and the best place for that to happen is a good public school.

[sense]

153. OH MY GOD!

You've got to be kidding! Socialization is the biggest myth of all.

You think that locking your child in a room with one adult and 30 other 5 years olds teaches them how to live in the world? That teaches them how to live in a room with 30 other 5 years olds! Nothing more. What a scary thought.

Home schooled kids are out in the real world living every day among all ages, races, religions, genders and orientations. Try to learn about things before commenting on them.

Just one tiny link, although there are at least hundreds on this subject.

http://homeschooling.about.com/od/socialization/a/socialchallenge.htm

[tigereye]

202. I don't see why you can't have socialization in both places...

kids learn from interacting with other kids (and people) in both settings.


Kids in conventional/typical classrooms (and many kindergarten classrooms utilize very positive methods of teaching, encouraging kids to learn to control themselves, be patient and kind, learn about creativity, etc.) can learn just as well as home-schooled kids.



I do think that a lot of folks still tend to think of home-schooling in a limited way, they do need to look at the big picture.

[hamsterjill]

234. Nope, sorry, but I totally disagree

I think having children interact with other children is an invaluable lesson for teaching them how to share, how to learn to achieve, to learn to fail, to learn to accept personalities different from their own, etc.

Home schooled children don't normally have the same opportunities. Having contact with siblings all under the same family structure does not give the same amount of exposure to the outside world as what children attain in public schools.

[sense]

254. Which home schooled children are you referring to?

"Home schooled children don't normally have the same opportunities. Having contact with siblings all under the same family structure does not give the same amount of exposure to the outside world as what children attain in public schools."

************************

This is patently false. A myth. NEA talking points.

My children and all the home schooled children we know are out in the community every day taking advantage of lots of different resources. We interact with people of all ages, races, genders, orientations, professions, leanings freely, not just with our own age student or our own families.

*****************

"I think having children interact with other children is an invaluable lesson for teaching them how to share, how to learn to achieve, to learn to fail, to learn to accept personalities different from their own, etc."

******************

This statement, while true, is, in the context that you're using it, completely irrelevant. Children locked away in school all day with only their same age peers are the ones who are losing out on being exposed to a broad range of people and experiences.

Try not to keep repeating worn mythology about home schoolers.

[hamsterjill]

262. I still disagree.

Aren't I allowed to disagree with you?

How are your home schooled children out in the community? If they are out in the community, are they still kept to a strict classroom schedule like children are in public schools? And oh, yes, public school children still do take field trips every once in a while.

Do you consider yourself to be an authority on each and every subject that you teach? Are you a mathematician, while at the same time an English scholar? Normally in public schools, different teachers teach different subjects, presumably, teaching those subjects which they have the greater knowlege of. I find it hard to believe that one person can effectively teach every subject and provide the type of learning environment which will make a home schooled student competitive in a future work force.

It's obvious that we disagree on this subject. Your arguments are the same, old tired laments that I've heard over and over again about home schooling. I simply believe that children receive a better overall education by participating in a public school curriculm. I believe it better prepares them for life in general.

[sense]

266. Hmmm... when I disagree I generally try to do that from

a position of strength, meaning I don't generally disagree with people until I've researched what they're talking about to know if it's reasonable to disagree or if I'm simply misinformed or uninformed and need more info. Not always, but generally.

Perhaps you simply need more info.

Home schooling is a misnomer, that's a problem.

We chose to home school because the schools refused to teach my son anything that he didn't already know. For years. His teachers wanted to teach the curriculum they planned instead of teaching the children who appeared before them.

There are as many ways to home school as their are children. When the school is broken, it makes no sense to bring school home. We do not sit around the kitchen table and pretend we're in school.

My children learn 24/7, from everything they do, just like in the old days before the rich folk decided to corral us all together to turn out factory workers that wouldn't complain or be able to think critically.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

We go about our daily lives much like everyone else, except that we do not waste 6 hours a day on school. My children read voraciously on an enormous variety of subjects, they watch documentaries, videos, history channel, science channel, etc. They take classes from many different sources that we find in the community. My older son speaks 6 languages, because he's interested in them. We've utilized resource centers, teachers, tutors, books, the internet, cooperative classes taught by experts in their field, etc. He's 18, he's enrolled in one of the most academic colleges in the US and already has 3 years of college credit. He has a black belt, he's currently studying two other types of martial arts, working toward blackbelts in those. He's not so interested in the belts, but interested in the fitness and skills involved and will probably continue for many, many years. I mention these things only in an attempt to demonstrate that he's well-rounded and has been educated, nothing more. This isn't all he knows, just a sample. He knows how to research, how to think critically and how to get along with most everyone. He was not surrounded all day by only same age peers. He learned what was expected wherever we were and conformed his behavior so that he would be allowed to learn, despite his age.

I don't take credit for what he's accomplished thus far, I simply removed him from a toxic school environment and gave him the time and resources (many, free) so that he could educate himself. He was able to learn the things he was interested in, when he was interested in them, just like we do before we go to school and as adults, which results in much better retention and therefor a greater ability to use what we've learned. This is not my opinion, this is backed up by many unbiased studies about how people learn. I have no idea why most public schools don't use practices that have been documented to be more effective.

I don't know what you mean about my arguments being the same, old tired laments. Public school is like no other environment they will experience in their lives. It's a completely artificial construct where you're only allowed to associate with same age peers, only allowed to learn what's being dished out that day or year, because some arbitrary bureaucrat decided that all kids are just identical, empty buckets to be filled with slop.

Education should not be the filling of a bucket, but the lighting of a fire. (Can't remember who said that) Fortunately for us, we've gotten to experience some incredible "teachers" (most, not certified) who love and are passionate about their subjects, are experts in their field and willing to share.

Of course my kids also know how to cook and clean, grocery shop, pick out fruit, make their own appointments, (which includes figuring out when they'll be able to work the appt. into their schedules, which bus routes they'll need and how long that will take if mom is not available, and making sure they've got the funds to pay for the service) bake pies, take care of animals, mow the lawn, ride bikes, play tennis, etc. I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point. They did not remotely need public school.

If I thought they needed that, I could beat them up and steal their lunch money myself. :-)

[NeedleCast]

131. Private would be my first choice, Public my 2nd

(I should mention that I have no children)

According to parents in my area, the public school system is pretty solid. Plus, I think the socialisation aspect is important. I'm not claiming that home schooled children are anti-social, but personally, I LIKED going to school with my buddies, playing sports with and just hanging around with them in the lunch room. Plus, I woulnd't want to invest the energy in home schooling and I don't think that I could do a better job even with the resources available for home-schooling these days.

[Edweird]

134. 1) I'm not 'teacher' material. 2) Social skills are learned 'on the job' so to speak.

3) There are private schools with more than sufficient qualifications.

I see no reason to go the homeschooling route if money were no obstacle. If, however, the only available education option is some 3rd world shithole, then I'll give homeschooling a shot.

[sense]

155. Stunning.

[Edweird]

173. What?

[sense]

176. 3rd world shithole?

You said:

"I see no reason to go the homeschooling route if money were no obstacle. If, however, the only available education option is some 3rd world shithole, then I'll give homeschooling a shot.

******************************************************************************

That's the only thing that would motivate you to home school? That's an extraordinarily low standard.......

Most people would make the hard choice to home school before things got that bad.

[Edweird]

178. It's a colloquialism, not a 'standard'.

My point is that I am not the best qualified teacher for my teacher, but if they are going to do worse than I could and/or the physical danger potential was too high I would do it.

[sense]

191. Which is exactly my argument! Thank you!

I gave the public schools 4 years of by son's life and I deeply regret it. I saw what they were doing and just kept trying to work with them believing that if we were just cooperative enough, volunteered enough, gave enough money (yes, that was stupid) that they would provide my child an education at his level and rate of learning as required by law, just like all the other kids. I finally had to admit that I no matter what I did they were not going to teach my son anything of value (swearing, bullying, stealing, etc. could be taught at home) because they didn't want to.

I put in an eager, kind, generous, intelligent, thrilled to be in school kid and got back someone I no longer recognized. He "graduated" at 8 from 5th grade in a language immersion school after skipping two grades. Since he entered kindergarten reading at at least a 3rd grade level and ready for algebra and was given only beginning reader books at school I'm pretty sure he wasted enough of his life in stifling boredom to last for a very long time. He lost 4 years of his life that he could have spent living and learning amazing things!

You're only concerned with physical harm? There was plenty of that too.

No one needs to be a "teacher" to figure out how to educate their children. It's not that difficult if you're paying attention and you care about the kid. Not meant as a slam at anyone, it's simply that easy. I don't know why people act like it's too difficult. There are so many resources available, many of them free, that it would be hard not to take advantage of them.

The concern I hear most often is that people don't think they could take spending so much time with their kids. The best kept secret is that your kids are so much easier to "take" when they're not locked away from life, being socialized by 30 other 5 year olds.

[Edweird]

197. "You're only concerned with physical harm?"

I think you may have skipped the 'and/or'.
Both are important.

[sense]

203. You're right, I missed that. Sorry.

[InvisibleTouch]

135. If I had kids...

...which I don't, and won't, but IF I did, I would hire a teacher to come into the home for a few hours a day and teach the basics (reading, writing, math) for the first couple of years. I'm not qualified to teach someone to read, wouldn't even know where to begin. But once those basics were in place, I'd continue homeschooling myself. I had a horrific time of it in school, and I'd never subject a kid to that kind of trauma. I also feel that one learns more if one can pursue one's own interests and passions in a less structured environment, rather than an enforced and regimented schedule. There would be more hands-on experience, more trips to museums, zoos, libraries, and nature walks, more use of the internet to follow up on the latest science, plus lots and lots of access to books and good videos.

All of that assuming I had the time and money to pursue such a course, because that really is a full-time occupation. It wouldn't leave me much time to make a living or take care of my animals - and thus we're back to the beginning: I don't have kids. :)

On edit: I would do for my hypothetical kid what I wish had been done for myself.

[Dorian Gray]

141. If money were not an issue

I would want to send my (future) kids to Berkeley Carroll or St. Anne's school in Brooklyn. They are both pretty pricey, but great schools.

[Odin2005]

142. If I had kids I would homeschool them

I could give them a better education then our schools could, and they wouldn't have to worry about bullies, mediocre teachers, fascistic school administrators and endless standardized tests. The "socialization" argument against homeschooling is complete BS, kids socialize outside of school, too. IMO "Socialization" is just a euphemism for "make them docile sheep who don't question authority."

Also, since my GF and I have Asperger's any kids he have will have a good chance of being on the Autism spectrum and public school is absolute hell for us autistics.

[RedCappedBandit]

147. I would choose a private school

unless the public schools in my area impressed me in some way. Wouldn't homeschool.

[GreenPartyVoter]

148. No, because my kids would never listen to me 6 hours a day. I have a teaching degree, though, as

does my husband, and we supplement what our boys learn in our local public school: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x8595772

[sense]

161. Yikes! Mine wouldn't either!

Luckily home schooling doesn't take that much time and there's no reason you have to spend your day chattering at them.

Kids, before they go to school, love learning and you can't stop them. If you give them the time and a small amount of the resources that are available they'll educate themselves in spite of anything you do. Their love of learning will be life long if not squelched by the artificial construct of "school". There are as many ways to home school as their are children.

Home school needs a new name. We are never home!

[GreenPartyVoter]

167. That was our other problem. I don't drive so we would have been limited in getting

around to see cool things. :(

Luckily we have a pretty decent school here, and with the enrichment work hubby and I do with the kids I think they are getting the best of both worlds. :)

[galledgoblin]

154. depends on the state, but probably public school + family tutoring (n/t)

[DevonRex]

183. That's what we did and it worked very well.

[Belial]

156. I am a little surprised that so many people trust the

Govt with our most valuable commodity when they can be trusted with nothing else...

[sense]

168. Me too.

They must have gone to public school. :-)

[tigereye]

205. some public schools are great, some are not, the same goes for teachers

I went to both private Catholic schools and public. Some teachers were great, and some weren't. I had many teachers whom I loved and cherished. And I received a good education in "regular" and Gifted classes. I also went to public and private colleges for undergrad and graduate school.


It isn't really fair to assume that all public schools are a problem, if I am interpreting your tone correctly. There are some benefits to having kids taught by folks who were trained to teach. The head of my son's school has a Master's degree in History and her knowledge and planning skills, as well as past teaching experience, shine through.


I don't know why folks assume that they will necessarily be superior teachers with no teaching experience or knowledge of educational principles. It may be true in some cases, but not in all. I have undergrad and graduate degrees in English Lit and Education, but I don't assume that I would be the best one to teach my child during the day, eschewing a typical school program. I could do it, but I am fortunate to be able to pay for a progressive-type private school, and I have a profession that I love already. I teach my kid "all the time" as a parent, but I don't have a problem with actual trained teachers doing it during the day, and quite effectively, I might add.

[sense]

245. No, you are not interpreting my tone correctly,

through no fault of your own. This type of communication lacks so much. I don't assume that all public schools are a problem, but I do believe that the historic and unfortunately continuing purpose of public school is a problem.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

Folks that home school do not assume they can teach a class full of students in a superior way. What I know, is that I gave my school system 4 years of my and my son's life and they refused to teach him because he didn't fit into their box and refused to dumb down to do so. We brought him home, allowed him to learn what he wanted when he was interested in learning it and to whatever depth suited him. There are an enormous amount of resources (many, free) on the net and in the community to help. I don't for a moment take credit for what my son has accomplished thus far. I didn't teach him most of what he learned. Home schoolers, much of the time, simply facilitate. My son has 3 years of college credit and speaks six languages at 18. I speak one language and have 1 year of college credit. I am capable of providing him with what he needs to educate himself or directing him in utilizing other resources. He's a great guy, kind, generous and ethical. He loves his family and friends and appreciates what he has. Well, we're still working on loving the pesky, little brother.... :-)

I'm sure there are public schools, and private, that do a good and/or excellent job for a lot of their students. I would simply appreciate the people who know nothing about the alternatives not so vociferously denigrating them at every opportunity.

And, selfishly, I'd like people to be more informed and understand that there are "out of the box" ways to get what you need.

[tigereye]

157. no, home-schooling is too hard - why not have actual certified teachers do it?

IMHO. I have a friend who does it well with the help of a cyber school, but I could never do it unless I had no other options.



I send my kid to private school, though, and we don't have fancy furniture. That's the sacrifice we make.

[treestar]

158. IMO homeschool is inherently inefficient

Without being a trained teacher myself, I would think it a disadvantage to the kids.

[sense]

166. I don't understand why people who no nothing about a subject feel compelled to

comment, revealing that they are promulgating myth.

[treestar]

181. People who "no" everything don't prove it just by dismissing another's

comments. And we are all free to comment about anything on a message board and aren't claiming to be experts.

[sense]

185. Touche'

You caught me in an error. Good job. I must be human!

I didn't dismiss! Read.

[wickerwoman]

170. My impression is that for many students it's a lot more efficient.

When one teacher has 15-20 students (and 10-15% of those students are unmanageable little buggers), an enormous amount of class time is wasted on discipline, re-explaining instructions, lining everyone up to take them to lunch/recess/library/computer lab, getting everyone to sit down and pay attention.

I used to be a sub in kindergarten and I would estimate that 20-30% of my day was spent just on physically getting 15 kids where I wanted them to be when I wanted them to be there plus another 10-15% getting all of them paying attention at the same time and 10-15% repeating and clarifying instructions. That left 40% of my time spread over 15 students so that each student was theoretically getting my undivided attention 2-3% of the time on any given day and realistically the four or five kids who decided to be total pains in my ass got 10% each and the other ten or eleven kids were mostly on their own.

From my own experience, I spent probably 5-10% of any given school day actually on task and learning something. I would have spent a lot more time studying if it had been just my brother and I with one of our parents breathing down our necks.

Many homeschoolers report that their kids make more progress in two or three hours of homeschooling than six hours at traditional school and I can believe it.

[treestar]

180. That is true and thus small classrooms or tutors would be more

efficient.

So if money were no object, I'd hire a tutor, or a series of them. But they'd be teachers.

But if it's me homeschooling them, the time saved in your example of more than overbalanced by my lack of knowledge about teaching.

With only one student, there is so much about teaching I don't know. But if my kids were in school with teachers, that teacher, through their experience with other kids, might know something that I could never have learned. Even if I were a teacher myself, my limited myself to only my kids as students would mean my years of experience would be shallow.

[wickerwoman]

215. Many "homeschoolers" do exactly that.

They teach their kids the subjects they feel comfortable teaching (using ready-made curricula they can buy anywhere) and then pool with other homeschooling families and hire a tutor in the more difficult subjects.

I think it's a very personal decision though and depends on the kid and on the parents. I think it's fine to homeschool kids who, for whatever reason, are at risk of dropping through the cracks in public schools on the condition that the parents are vaguely qualified to organize their child's education. But I think the state has a right to intervene in cases where the children are not being provided an adequate education at home.

[CANDO]

162. What grinds my ass about homeschooling parents...

is that they turn around and still want their kids to participate in sports and other extra-curricular activities through the public schools. I know, I know, "but I still pay school taxes". Yeah well bullshit on that. If your kids are too good for the classroom, then their too good for the sports and band. Keeping them at home is your choice, live by the consequences then.

[sense]

164. It has nothing to do with our kids being too good

for the classroom. You are clueless and modeling your ignorance. Good thing your kids go to school.

Why not comment on things you know something about?

Who's children are they? Do they belong to the state? We should all just hand our children over to anyone to rot in the dumbed down version of school we now have in so many areas?

[CANDO]

275. My daughter is doing algebra in the 4th grade.

My stepdaughter teaches high school chemistry and says when she was in school, she didn't do algebra until 9th or 10th grade. Are you giving your kids algebra in 4th grade? Or maybe I'm just clueless and ignorant? Perhaps my opinion of people who home school is influenced by the jackass loonies on the xtian fundie right. My apologies to those from the left who don't want a corporate tool education for their kids. I can see where you're coming from on that issue. But just don't come forcing your kids onto sports teams and band when you choose to not have them participate in the classroom. Just my opinion.

[demwing]

177. Why does that grind your ass? How would that possibly hurt you at all?

Some people seem to have a bias against home schooling that goes beyond understanding.

[Dinger]

277. Mine Too

They can start a homeschool sports team.

[DevonRex]

182. Public school plus extra from us. That's how my husband and I did it.

[Fireweed247]

188. I was public schooled and I homeschool

My kids are far advanced of what I was doing at their age. Instead of proving they can read with simplistic worksheets, they have the time to read advanced novels of their choosing and truly comprehend them. Instead of proving they can write with simplistic worksheets, they are writing their own novels with very advanced vocabulary. They are also very advanced in mathematics and computer technology but they are lucky to have my husband teaching them who was previously a public school math/technology teacher, who now uses his time and energy to teach our own children. We have chosen to live on less money in order to have the time we desire to teach our children and live our lives. I do believe they learn more in a few hours than most kids do all day at public school because of all of the wasted time with instructions, discipline etc. We live a less stressed, happier and healthier life having the freedom to live on our own terms. The kids are far more creative than I ever was, have developed many more talents and their personality is based completely on who they are as opposed to imitating and/or trying to please peers. I have also noticed they are more respectful than your average kids these days.

[sense]

199. Yahoo! Yes! Thank you!

Exactly!!!!!

Me too!!!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

192. I couldn't provide the social enrichment that he needs.

Academics? No problem.

[Witchy_Dem]

194. I homeschool both of my kids.

I am grateful that I live in a country that allows us that freedom.

[Ilsa]

208. I think option 2 is backwards. Elementary school is great, but as the kids get older,

there is more peer stress at public school. I wish I could homeschool mine, but their needs for specially trained teachers are too great.

[rebecca_herman]

210. Other

This is for theoretical children, but assuming I could afford any option I wanted, I would pick the type of schooling that seemed best suited to the child. So I would homeschool the child if I felt they had needs that would not be met in a school setting, and I would send the child to a school if I felt school was the best option for that child. Public vs private school would depend on the quality of of each in the area I lived as well as any particular needs of the child that one type of school might accomodate better.

[Hello_Kitty]

212. It would depend on the kid.

If s/he were struggling in the public schools it's an option I would explore. Generally speaking, I'd use the public schools.

[Bobbie Jo]

216. No, I am not an educator. I'm a parent

with years of on the job training. My paid profession requires specific training and expertise. I had responsible and engaged parents, but I don't want my mother to set my broken arm.

Education is far too important for amateurs.

[K8-EEE]

217. I would hate homeschooling, or being homeschooled.

You learn a lot from school, that is not academic -- and a lot is not pleasant, such as dealing with cliques etc., but it's valuable.

I liked the whole school experience and having a life away from my house and my parents.

The only way I would do it if if there were no acceptable schools where I was living -- and I wouldn't presume to teach Algebra, I BARELY got through it and retained ZERO!

[Cleita]

219. Me too!

I hated summer vacation when I had to stay home with the parent unit all day. I was an only child and missed having other kids around to play with and share lunch. Frankly, I think they were just as happy too when September came around and they could get rid of me during school hours.

[Cleita]

218. Other.

If I had the money, I would hire a governess with teaching credentials. I'm not qualified to home school my kids, nor is anyone else who is not an educator.

[TexasObserver]

221. I believe that socialization is a very important part of education.

Therefore I declined to send any of my three children to private schools or to home school them. I spent hours every night with my kids working with them on their homework and projects, checking their work. So "home schooling" is done by many who send their kids to real schools, except the child gets the important social interactions, too.

I did make it a point to live in districts and locales so that my kids could attend the best public schools, however. I planned where we lived based upon the quality of the public schools.

Children need to learn about the lives of others who are different from them. Acceptance is an acquired taste, and children need to learn it.

[sense]

273. Socialization has nothing to do

with public school. Home schooling is not about isolating kids in most cases, it's about exposing them to more people of all ages, races, genders, orientations, religions, parties..... instead of only exposing them, for the majority of the day, to children of the same age. Who would want their children socialized by 30 other 5 year olds when they could be out in the real world learning from doing everyday things and from all sorts of people instead of one adult? Home schooling is not about sitting around the table with mom. That is a really tired old myth and I'm sick of hearing about it presented as truth or having people allude to it as if it were real. Please don't do that. We don't need more mythology, we need more facts!

[TexasObserver]

274. Of course it does. It is unfortunate you don't realize that.

I've read a number of your posts, and here's the problem: you lack good writing skills, and your posts do not evidence the thoughtful reasoning than one would hope a quality teacher would have. You do not appear to have the skills necessary to teach children. You don't understand the concept of a sentence properly constructed. Your arguments are mainly ad hominem attacks on those with whom you disagree, and your "logic" is based strictly upon your personal experience.

Frankly, your comments make the case against home schooling. We don't need children being taught at home by parents who lack the knowledge or the education to properly train their children.

As your comments make clear, home schooling is about the PARENT, not the child. School was probably a bad time for you, and now you're living vicariously through your children. Remember this conversation when they grow up and blame you for keeping them out of the socialization that comes with learning to adapt to the world. Home schooling is the pouch in which the kangeroo keeps her young, and you like keeping yours in that pouch beyond their infancy. They'll learn, but they won't be complete humans. They'll have to learn how to interact with others (whom you unfairly characterize as "Walmart workers"), when they leave your home. They'll learn about their deficiencies when they can't get jobs. They will discover that the world will not worship their home schooling the way mommy does.

[sense]

279. Right.....

Writing online is not the same as anywhere else. You must have read only the short, angry ones or you wouldn't have written your silly little screed. The ad hominem attacks on me are numerous, but that's not generally what I write. You have no idea what home schooling is or what I've written about it as evidenced by your simple repetition of myth and uninformed falsehoods.

As I've said many times, I take no credit for my son's accomplishments. I removed him from a toxic, public school environment and gave him the time and a few resources (many, free) so that he could educate himself. Yes, as you say, it's all about me.

Facilitating someone's education isn't rocket science, most could do it, few bother.

My logic, as you call it, is based on research and reading scientifically conducted studies, plus some personal experience and observation. Your comments simply reveal your prejudice and lack of education and experience.

School bored me to tears because there was no depth and the same subjects were taught endlessly throughout the grades, a tiny bit at a time. I have my own life and interests beyond my children and no desire to live through them.

You demonstrate over and over throughout your post that you didn't read mine. My oldest is 18, he's got three years of college credit, is enrolled at one of the most academic colleges in the nation and speaks 6 languages. Yes, he did a very poor job of educating himself. I'm sure his options will be severely limited when looking for employment. sarcasm

Just like the rest of the uninformed, who comment on things they know nothing about, without even the most minute consideration of that fact, you bring up socialization. What a joke! Look at the research and educate yourself. Home schooled children, as a group, fare much better than their publicly schooled peers in socialization and enter college much more prepared. They are more mature and able to deal with anyone they encounter as they've not been locked away for most of their lives, socialized only by same age peers.

Your writing reveals much about you. I'm only commenting on this post, because I'm assuming you might know what you're talking about in your others. I could be wrong. Happens all the time. That's how we learn.

[Fireweed247]

281. "gave him the time and a few resources so that he could educate himself"

That to me is homeschooling in a nutshell. Children are naturally interested in everything. Our home is full of books, a huge library of interests and my kids teach themselves all of the time, all day long. During "school", they have a checklist where they are expected to do things that they wouldn't normally choose like Math and Science. The difference is that they spend much of their time doing special projects. Instead of reading and answering questions in a science textbook(which they do at times) they are able to follow instructions and do experiments on their own, which they then film with a green screen behind them and put the whole film on a spaceship backdrop that they have created using the blender program. When they read about history, they create a blog about what they found interesting and post it on their website. When they draw a picture, they can scan it into the computer and use it for animations, alter it in the gimp and add it to their website. Homeschooling opens up a whole world of creativity that would not be available otherwise.

With all of the time homeschooling opens up for just reading, I don't have to worry about teaching writing, spelling or grammar. It all comes naturally. My 10 year old daughter gets up before seven every weekday morning just to have the house to herself while she writes her novel for over an hour. My kids love to write, because homeschooling gives them the freedom to choose what they write about in their formative years. My kids love to read, because they are allowed the freedom to choose what they read in their formative years. Now that they can read so well, they enjoy reading about everything.

I feel very fortunate to have spent my time wisely during my children's formative years, and no outside work could ever be more fulfilling than raising my own children. I will never regret spending this time with my kids. They already grow up so fast and I will always be happy that I have helped them find who they are at such an early age. So many children are 'socialized' but completely lost because they have always followed societal expectations that left them with little knowledge of who they are or what they want for their life. Many children spend their years in college with no direction, just going through the motions. I don't know if many people here have seen what is happening at the high schools these days, but some of the 'socialization' going on isn't as great as people seem to think. I am hoping to foster a creativity and individuality that will help my kids rise above American culture.

[Zynx]

223. The fact that 54% of DUers say stay the hell away from public schools worries me.

[NaturalHigh]

232. I'm not really wild about some aspects of public schools...

but I don't want my kids to be home-schooled. We discussed it when we got married and decided against it. My wife doesn't work outside the home now, but I still want the kids to go to school.

[LanternWaste]

235. I would imagine that were I as involved in my kid's education...

I would imagine that were I as involved in my kid's education as my parents were with my education, it wouldn't matter whether the school was under performing or not.

Add to that the socialization skills I picked up, the lifelong friends I made (25+ years later, we're still "that table in the cafeteria"), the fact that homeschooling would have denied me the extracurricular school activities that I enjoyed so much (marching band, drama, debate, etc), well... I'm not saying it was the best time of my life, but I am saying I certainly wouldn't have traded it for home schooling.

In my case, the public school system was what I made of it. The system provided me with all the necessary tools I needed-- that I sometimes didn't actively seek out or fight for those tools is on me. And although I thought myself clever in HS and that some of my teacher's were ignorant, I realized later in life that my perceptive was simply one of an intractable youth who incorrectly thought himself smarter than his peers and many of his elders.




So I guess my roundabout answer to your question is that I'd send my children to public schools despite the fact that I might have a few bazillion dollars in the bank. There were simply too many things that I learned from being around hundreds of other kids my own age that I would have had to learn much later... or even not at all had I been home schooled.

[sense]

270. assumptions are not facts!

"the fact that homeschooling would have denied me the extracurricular school activities that I enjoyed so much (marching band, drama, debate, etc), well... I'm not saying it was the best time of my life, but I am saying I certainly wouldn't have traded it for home schooling."

Did you read any of the posts on home schooling, say maybe the ones where it was described, explained, clarified, discussed?

Home schooling provides more of whatever kids need. It's individual. If done well, each kid has their own program that addresses them specifically. Needs are met.

[W_HAMILTON]

246. Why do public schools get such a bad name?

I'm sure there are some bad ones out there, but that happens everywhere.

I think you would have to be a HELLUVA bad teacher for kids to really be "stupid" because of you. I am a pretty good student, and it's not because of my teachers -- it's because of me. A lot of times, it's up to the student. Parents should instill in their kids a certain work ethic when it comes to school. I know a lot of dumb students around me; it's not because our teachers are bad, it's because the students are bad. They don't want to to the reading and they don't want to do the work -- they are just lazy. There is no amount of teaching that can change that.

[seabeyond]

257. doesnt your post sound like simple common sense. i dont get all the people that dont get

what you stated. it is so simple.

but i heartedly agree with you

[Hello_Kitty]

264. And some parents would rather blame teachers than look at themselves. eom

[sense]

271. you know a lot of dumb students and they're just lazy....

It's not the teachers....

I guess you skipped all the conversation and just answered the question without thinking..... ok, I'm going to cut you some slack instead of saying something like "oh, you must have gone to public school" to assume that the kids around you are just dumb and lazy. Nothing else going on here, just move along......

Yes, I know... snarky. sarcastic.....un-pc.

[W_HAMILTON]

280. I answered the poll.

I didn't read through every single of the rest of the discussion, because I was not responding to them: I was responding to the poll.

I'm not sure the point of your post, but if you are upset that I called some (to be honest, many) of the students around me lazy, I would assume that you must be one of those students around me, seeing as how you think you know more about them than I do. And if you're not, who are you to say anything?

I see the laziness. They don't do the reading, they don't come to class, and they don't study. Then when they get a 41 on a test, they are surprised. That is NOT the fault of the teacher. In terms of my group, we have six people total. Two are decent workers, the other three might as well not even be there. They contribute nothing, and they don't care that they aren't contributing anything. Even though this group project counts as 30% of our final grade, they just don't care. Is that the fault of the teacher? Is that MY FAULT? No. It's the fault of those lazy ass students.

As I said, I am a good student. I don't think any teacher has made much of an impact on my life -- except maybe my kindergarten teacher, who I joke about taught me how to write so neatly. I can't really say that I have ever had an incredibly bad teacher, and I went straight through the public school system. Most were average to above average.

The problem isn't the teachers, it is the students. However, I would blame public schools if they don't put in the facilities to enable learning, i.e. provide students with up-to-date technology, a decent environment, reasonable class sizes, etc. But again, that wouldn't be the fault of the teachers.

If your kid doesn't read, come to class, or study, it's not the teacher's fault -- PERIOD. It's your kid's fault, and your fault as a parent. And it may not even be your fault as a parent, because some kids just can't be reasoned with, and they do what they want to regardless. That's exactly why there shouldn't be merit pay for teachers.

I am a good student, not because of my teachers or my parents, but because of MYSELF. If I didn't have the discipline to do the work and try to learn, I would be a "bad student" in the eyes of many. I would be the one getting a 41 on a test.

Much of this has little to do with the teachers -- it has everything to do with the students.

[sense]

285. Why would you attempt to formulate a response

without figuring out what was being discussed? You've assumed many things, none of them correct, because you didn't take the time to read.

***************************

"I'm not sure the point of your post, but if you are upset that I called some (to be honest, many) of the students around me lazy, I would assume that you must be one of those students around me, seeing as how you think you know more about them than I do. And if you're not, who are you to say anything?"


An american, entitled to free speech?

************************

You are in the system and have no idea what the question was, let alone the answer. I'm happy that you consider yourself a good student and apparently get good grades. Good luck.

[seabeyond]

289. the person was responding to the op, not to you. you need to take a deep breathe

and walk away from the computer. posters are "allowed" to respond to op. they get to. you are being ridiculous, .... again

(i respected you on another thread months ago when we were able to end our discussion with what appeared a mutual respect. but these threads recently, you have totally gone over the cliff)

[sense]

290. I'm being ridiculous?

Okie Dokie, then.

You sure told me!

[W_HAMILTON]

295. I did read what I responded to.

And you are entitled to free speech, but that doesn't take away the fact you know absolutely nothing about the types of students I am going to school with. You are not around them, you don't know them, and they are not in your group.

I am constantly around them, and I see the problem isn't the teachers, it's the fact that the majority of students are lazy. I don't see how you can fault the teacher for that. The teacher can only do so much.

For the most part, the problem is not with public schools, and it is not with the teachers.

[sense]

297. Did I comment about the people you know?

You might want to add reading comprehension to your studies.

[W_HAMILTON]

301. Yes, you did.

"""ok, I'm going to cut you some slack instead of saying something like "oh, you must have gone to public school" to assume that the kids around you are just dumb and lazy."""

Sound familiar?

Don't imply I am wrong about something when you have absolutely no connection to the people I am referring to.

I'm not going to stoop to your level and say something along the lines of, "maybe they were homeschooled and had parents that were too busy on the internet making fools of themselves rather than teaching them not to be lazy and stupid."

Yes, I know... snarky. sarcastic.....un-pc.

[sense]

304. My comment was about your comment assuming the kids around

you are dumb and lazy.

That's a ridiculous comment to make about any group of people. I wasn't commenting on any specific people you know, just on your silly assumption that other students who have problems with school are having those problems because they're lazy and stupid. That's extremely simplistic and dismissive.

Who's the fool?

Reading comprehension.

[W_HAMILTON]

307. Which means you commented on the people I know.

Thanks for proving my point.

It's not ASSUMING something, when you know something. You saying these kids that I am referring to are not lazy, THAT is assuming.

I suppose I shouldn't have called them dumb, because if you don't try, there is no telling whether you can be "intelligent" or "dumb." But they aren't trying. Again, if you have a student that doesn't do the reading, doesn't show up for class, and never studies, how is that the teacher's fault? It's not. And it shouldn't be up to the teacher to motivate all these students to do the work, because that would be taking away from my class time, when I am there to learn, not watch my teacher waste time on students that aren't there to learn.

Very few "bad" students I have ever encountered in my many years of schooling were an HBO original movie waiting to happen -- a great student who was willing to learn, but simply a victim of circumstances. I'm sure there are people like that, because there are exceptions to every rule. But the majority of poor students I have met are that way because they don't try.

If I never read the chapters, or did the work, or studied, or came to class, I would be a bad student, too. It's not the fault of the teachers if they have students who just aren't willing to do what is asked of them.

[sense]

310. I think the problem is

that you're looking at things very short term. Each of those stupid and lazy kids you're talking about has a history. You have no idea when they "Checked out" of school. They entered school many years ago and have had millions of experiences since then. My son had checked out by third grade and I'm quite certain if I had not removed him from school so that he could learn at his pace he would not have appeared to be anything but stupid and lazy long before high school. There are millions like him, who stayed in school, and wound up without an education (of the type you would expect), not due to being stupid and lazy, but to many other factors. We are all individuals. Many, many kids do not fit into the school "box" in a lot of different ways and many of those you're talking about don't belong in the stupid and lazy box. Our individual experiences affect each of us differently and when you lump people together and assume, you dismiss all of their experiences.

Are you always what you appear to be? I doubt it. I think you need to be careful about lumping people together and dismissing them. That is exactly what prejudice is.

[seabeyond]

288. since you didnt read down post, this poster is anti public school. no reason

no discussion. bottom line, schools fail.....

regardless of logic, doesnt count. regardless of fact, doesnt matter.

you are perfectly welcome to answer off the op, most people do and they dont have to read the whole thread cause one poster DEMANDS you to.

again i will say, you post is right on and what i observe also. both, back in my days of school, and i was one of the lazy one that didnt have to go to school adn still pulled the good grades and in the schools today, seeing them as my kids go thru. the difference is there are more kids not interested in learning and being good students than back in my days and less parental expectations and demands on the kids.

[sense]

291. Lying will not get you any respect

You didn't read my posts. Don't continue with your lies. Piling them one on another won't make them real.

It's clear and logic and facts are not your long suit.

[Geek_Girl]

261. I'm sending mine to Montessori School

She's in Kindergarten and she can write in cursive and read already.

[texastoast]

276. Good for you and your kids

That's what I did. My older son was reading fourth grade books at age five. My younger one, was about level with the other Montessory kids. And I think every public school should use the Montessori method. My kids both did much better and advanced faster than they did after switching to the public school curriculum. That whole environment is better for all kids and makes them all able to achieve at their natural pace. We have one public school here that goes through 12th grade. People camp for three days to get their kids registered for it. You would think the government would get a clue.

[mainer]

278. So -- should every woman provide 18 years of unpaid labor?

(Not that it's exclusively mothers who homeschool, but most home school teachers are women, not men.)

My question has more to do with the lives of women. Homeschooling means you, as a woman, must put your own career and desires on hold for 18 + years, depending on how many kids you have. It means that your contribution to society is SOLELY through your children. And if you are a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, your own needs to be out in the world, doing what you were trained to do, must take a back seat to teaching your kids the ABC's.

It's nice if that's your choice. But as a feminist, I don't want anyone telling a mother that sending her kid to public school makes her a bad mom.

And when those kids are grown and on their own, the homeschooling mom is suddenly middle aged, with no job history and no career. You've devoted your life entirely to your children, and what are you, beyond a mom? Wouldn't you like to have accomplished something in your own name?

[Fireweed247]

282. Some of us don't feel accomplishment is related to money

Homeschooling has not only educated my children, it keeps our entire family engaged in learning. We are a happy, healthy, caring and educated family. In our value system, this rises above the level of making money at a 'career'. I think we are going to have a great time on our extended camping field trip this May with the roads to ourselves 'learning' about nature. Somehow I don't think I will be dreaming of being accomplished at a career, I will be ecstatic that my husband and I were smart enough to see what is truly important in our lives, and enjoy it to the fullest. I can work at some job to make money....some other time when I have nothing else to do. Right now I have more important things to do. And this comes from a public school graduate, with a degree in psychology from a UC in California who came to discover that a life is better lived.

[mainer]

283. Self fulfillment isn't about money. It's about having your own life.

and contributing in other ways than MOMMYhood. And not being enslaved to only one role, that of MOMMY.

MOMMY is a nice role to have in life. But I think women may later feel they've make a mistake when MOMMY has been their one and only purpose in life.

[Fireweed247]

284. What if self fulfillment comes from within

created from being a part of a healthy happy family? Does self fulfillment only come from doing something in the outside world? What if I choose and enjoy my support role in my family's health and happiness?

I reject the notion that in order to be a feminist or self fulfilled, I need to join the typical stressed out ego centered world of the two earner work and buy American family. If you think a career is more important than educating your children, okay no problem, but feminism means different things to different people. To me feminism means freedom, and I'm happy with it.

(BTW I have never been called MOMMY and it sort of seems demeaning the way you use it)

[sense]

294. Capitalizing MOMMY doesn't add to your argument.....

Still not educating yourself, before speaking?

[sense]

293. Yes, yes, and yes!

Spoken from a position of knowledge and well stated.

[sense]

292. Why would you assume?

I've read your argument somewhere before, can't remember who said it right now.

It's simply a choice. A good alternative when public school fails your child. Home schooling does not mean you put your life on hold for at least 18 years. People who have careers also home school. Home schooling (for the eighteenth time) is not about the mom sitting around the table lecturing kids all day. You have an old myth (perpetuated by teachers and the NEA to encourage a distasteful stereotype) in your head, and then coming out of your mouth as truth. If you were paying any attention or had any knowledge about home schooling you wouldn't repeat the propaganda.

As a feminist I home school and have a life. I'm not going to go through the whole dog and pony show again, but if you want to be even remotely familiar with home schooling and the millions of ways there are to do it, you should "try the google." Here's a start: unschooling, deschooling, classical home schooling, home schooling gifted children, eclectic home schooling, home schooling w/disabilities.

To borrow your phrasing.... Wouldn't you like to accomplish writing from knowledge, not myth?

[sense]

296. Feminism is about choices, not one person

telling another their choices are ridiculous.

If you're going to have children, you really need to pay attention to what's going on in their lives and do the best you can to raise them to be contributing members of society. If that means when the schools fail, you facilitate their education in a different way, that seems like a an unselfish and sane choice. Continuing to park them in school year after year (when you know it's not working) while you go about your business seems rather cold.

[mainer]

302. I raised two wonderful sons -- and they went to public schools

They also had string instrument lessons, karate lessons, etc., to which we of course drove them. And I arranged my own work schedule so that I would always be home when they finished their school day, and so we could take them to school every morning. I don't understand why home schooling parents believe that sending a kid to public school is "parking" them there like ignored pets. It's as if any parent who sends their kid to public school is an unfit parent.

I think it's great if parents want to home school their kids -- and are totally fulfilled by it. But I don't understand your need to denigrate everything to do with public schools. Because public schools worked for me, they worked for my kids, and they work for the majority of kids.

Frankly, I'm tired of the public school bashing.

And my feelings may also have to do with the fact I'm older, and can look back on life with a little perspective. I'm no longer in my 30's and 40's, when life was indeed all about child-rearing. Rather, I've come through that, and am at the far side of it, and can see that when women live an average of 76+ years, we have to also have our own identities. And not be wrapped up in one single role that only lasts 18 years out of our very long lives.

Our children are precious. But they grow up and they establish their own identities and move on. Would you advise your own daughters to give up whatever careers they may have trained for, and tell them they must stay home for 18 years to home school their kids?

[sense]

303. I don't understand why you ascribe things to home schooling parents

that they haven't said or thought? I very clearly said "that parking your children in school year after year (when you know its not working) while you go about your business seems rather cold". You conveniently left out the "when you know it's not working" to suit your own purpose. You are wrong. You say that we believe anyone who sends their kids to public school is an unfit parent. No one said that or anything remotely close to that. Why are you lying and accusing anyone of that?

No one said they're "totally fulfilled" by home schooling. What I did say was that I home school because the public schools refused to educate my child. I said I did it because that's what a parent does. If your kids were fine in public school, then they're fine in public school. I did not say you were unfit. You tried to put it in my mouth.

*************

"Homeschooling means you, as a woman, must put your own career and desires on hold for 18 + years, depending on how many kids you have. It means that your contribution to society is SOLELY through your children."


Those are your words, based on assumptions you make, while having no idea what you're talking about. You will sound ridiculous commenting on things you haven't educated yourself about. I assumed nothing about you, I simply took you at your word, yet you continue to spout myth.

****************

"But as a feminist, I don't want anyone telling a mother that sending her kid to public school makes her a bad mom."


More of your assumptions and lies. No one said this, just you. You sound like an anti-feminist. Quit telling other women how to live their lives.

**********************

"And when those kids are grown and on their own, the homeschooling mom is suddenly middle aged, with no job history and no career. You've devoted your life entirely to your children, and what are you, beyond a mom? Wouldn't you like to have accomplished something in your own name?"


More of your degrading, uninformed assumptions.

***********

"Self fulfillment isn't about money. It's about having your own life."

You again, assuming because of one choice someone makes that their life is over and they're not able to walk and chew gum at the same time. How condescending, insulting and completely inaccurate.

*************

"and contributing in other ways than MOMMYhood. And not being enslaved to only one role, that of MOMMY."

"MOMMY is a nice role to have in life. But I think women may later feel they've make a mistake when MOMMY has been their one and only purpose in life."


More of your ugly, assuming words.

****************

"And my feelings may also have to do with the fact I'm older, and can look back on life with a little perspective. I'm no longer in my 30's and 40's, when life was indeed all about child-rearing. Rather, I've come through that, and am at the far side of it, and can see that when women live an average of 76+ years, we have to also have our own identities. And not be wrapped up in one single role that only lasts 18 years out of our very long lives."

More assuming. I'm not in my 30's or 40's either and have plenty of perspective.

****************

"Our children are precious. But they grow up and they establish their own identities and move on. Would you advise your own daughters to give up whatever careers they may have trained for, and tell them they must stay home for 18 years to home school their kids?"


What world are you living in and who's posts are you reading and then ascribing to me? I would no sooner tell my children what to do with their lives than they would tell me! It really sounds like you've decided that I'm some mousy, little idiot, who never leaves my home or reads anything other than family circle. I'm nothing like you assume. Nothing. Home schooling is nothing like you assume either. Why don't you stick to things you know and quit trying to denigrate others for their well informed choices?

[LWolf]

286. Other:

1. I attended, and graduated from, public schools.
2. My sons attended, and graduated from, public schools.
3. My grandson currently attends public school.
4. I teach public school. I've taught all of K-8 over the course of my career.
5. Rather than trying to find private alternatives, or to pretend that everything is fine with the system, I prefer to radically reform the system. I just don't want to take the system in the direction that Obama does. Here's a recent post about what I WOULD like to see:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/LWolf

[Naturyl]

299. I'd probably undermine the whole contemporary concept of "education."

If that counts as "homeschooling," then I'd do that. However, I might also have my kids attend public school and supplement it with my brand of "homeschooling" in the off-hours.

[sutz12]

305. I remember the legendary fights I had with my kid over homework..

Nope, I'm not suited to homeschool anybody.

:)

[sense]

306. We had

some pretty awful fights over homework, until we home schooled. It was so nice not to have those fights every day..... My son absolutely despised the lame, busywork that was passed off as important homework.

I'm not saying it's for everyone... but it does eliminate so many problems that you wouldn't even think about.

[old mark]

309. As much as I hated it - every minute for 12 years - I got a better

education in a Catholic school than I would have in a public school at that time and place.
The public high school where I live now is infested with drug, gangs and stupidity, and compared to some in larger cities it is not bad.

Of course we are talking about a different place and different world, but I'd still choose a private school.

mark

[endersdragon34]

311. Being a twice exceptional kid growing up...

I would never ever send my figurative kid to public school. FYI there is no kid yet, but I plan to adopt an aspie/autie when and if ever possible, so I will just go with that assumption for now.

Basically my story goes something like this... first 6 or so years of school I was highly gifted in math and reading (and lets face it at least back then science and social studies are a joke and from what I have seen that hasn't changed). Because of that I was educated well below my level (to quote my hero Ender, "Arthimetic, Valentine taught me arthimetic when I was 5" or something like that). So I ceased to be all that gifted by middle school (could still qualify for honors classes and the harder classes in high school, but nothing like it was in elementry school where I was 3-5 years ahead at any given point). Then there was the bullying for my Asperger's... yea general public school is evil.

Most likely (assuming I had the fincial resources to do so) I would send my kids to Montessori private education until it ran out (generally in 3rd, 6th, or 9th grade). Then possibly look for a good charter school or try to homeschool them (assuming CPS will let me). Though I must admit it is interesting that most people here would private school/homeschool if they could.