Anyone favor merit pay for cops? firefighters?

[proud2BlibKansan]

Then why teachers?

The crime rate is up. Is merit pay for cops the answer?

The number of house fires increases. Is merit pay for firefighters the answer?

So why are we assuming that merit pay is the answer to solve the supposed problems in our public schools?

*Stole this from Thom Hartmann.

[msongs]

1. how bout merit pay for DU posters - only those we like get it tho nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. LOL

Best idea I have read all day.

[erinlough]

46. Candy hearts are DU's merit pay!

[Runcible Spoon]

58. No they're not...at least not while you can buy them for YOURSELF

[T Wolf]

2. GREAT question. I'm interested in seeing the DU response to this.

My answer would still be no, because I do not support merit pay for teachers.

The answer to why re: teachers is that education is not valued or honored in this nation, so the merit pay bullshit is just another weapon in the arsenal of those trying to destroy public education.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Sounds like a great idea to me.

The less criminals cops arrest, the better they're doing their job since there's less crime.

[phantom power]

4. Sounds OK to me.

And, like teachers, they all ought to be making a lot more than they do.

[imdjh]

11. I don't know where you live, but around here teacher and cop is a good paying job

Relative to average income, teachers and cops are ahead of the game, especially cops when you consider that it doesn't require a degree at entry level. When you consider the level of benefits and job security, they are again outpacing many other career choices.

[paulsby]

87. as a cop, i agree

i get quite good pay. i happen to have a bachelor's and some grad school, but my pay would be almost as much if i only had a high school diploma.

my benefits are excellent, my health care benefits are GREAT, etc.

i can easily make 6 figures, with a little overtime.

i know in some parts of the country cops ARE poorly paid, but at least in my case, i get paid quite well.

[BamaGirl]

109. Not here

It's not unusual for the smaller towns around us to pay their cops only 7-8 an hour. My husband has been a cop for 16 years. We're just now feeling like we can relax and breath a bit. The health insurance sucks and he loses paid time off every year because there aren't enough people to work. In most of the South both are jobs you gotta really love to stay with.

[readmoreoften]

14. You really want cops paid based on the number of people they arrest? Or low crime scores?

The first leads to false arrests for profit. The second leads to cops all wanting work in small towns in Wyoming--if a big crime wave hits everyone's pay go way down.

[phantom power]

15. Then perhaps we should measure performance some other way.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Doctors and nurses too.

You get raises based on whether or not illnesses and injuries decreased. Better hope there's not a flu outbreak or a natural disaster.

[PufPuf23]

6. The question is merit pay versus EARNED tenure

Earned tenure is preferable and less divisive and in itself is a merit based system already in place.

Tenure policy my need adjustment.

IMO there is more problem with public school administrators and other policy makers than teachers.

Merit pay is nothing but a red herring.

[Canuckistanian]

7. Social workers? Civil defence lawyers?

Civil Engineers?

They're all public professionals. Shouldn't there be a consistent policy for all of them?

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Works for me

Perhaps they also don't want to compete with their co-workers and focus on their jobs.

[Fresh_Start]

9. sure I believe that there may be appropriate use for merit pay

even for law enforcement and firefighters. Something like 95% of private employers have merit pay for their exempt employees. Over 70% of them have merit pay for non-union hourly workers.

Just because you highlight silly measurements doesn't mean that reasonable measurements of performance can't be developed

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. So how would we reasonably measure the job performance of a cop?

[Fresh_Start]

16. Because I'm not a cop, I'm not a good resource for that information

Why don't you ask squad leaders what is the difference between the better cops in their squad and the lesser ones.
I'm pretty sure they can tell who's doing their job and who isn't doing their job.

The point is, that the measurements are specific to the function.
My performance measurements are different from every other employee in my company. Nonetheless, I'm measured against other people at my level.

The agreement to merit pay doesn't lockdown the measurement tool. In enables salary flexibility to reward the best performers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. And how do they determine who the best performing cops are?

[tangent90]

22. Ask any police chief, they do it every day.

...

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Let's ask Joe Arpaio first

:)

[tangent90]

39. He's an elected Sheriff, not a police chief.

...

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. So only cops should be on a merit pay schedule? Not all law enforcement officers?

[tangent90]

53. I was being deliberately snarky but so far nobody has explained why it's a bad idea to

reward excellence whether it's in teaching, law enforcement or any other endeavor. I've said repeatedly that they are all mostly UNDERpaid but I'm not willing to lavish extra benefits on a teacher or cop or anybody else just because they happen to be in the business. That's idiotic and perpetuates mediocrity as I said. I can't imagine anybody with half a brain disagreeing with that premise.
One poster thinks I'm a teacher basher because I think they should be more educated than their students. How fucked up is -that-?

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. I am rewarded for excellence every day

When my kids walk in my classroom glad to see me and eager to get to work I feel like an excellent teacher.

See, what most of you are leaving out of this conversation is that teachers are not rewarded with money and for most of us, that is just fine. Yes we should probably be paid better. But I absolutely do not need a cash reward at the end of a year for a job well done. Nothing is more valuable than watching my kids grow and love learning.

[tangent90]

66. Well, that's great and good for you; my sis is a teacher like you, BUT you started the thread

specifically discussing monetary rewards. If that's immaterial why did you post it? I think you're probably a good teacher but you seem to have a somewhat limited attention span...
:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. My point is that we don't pay cops with merit pay; why do we think it will work for teachers?

Sorry you didn't get it. I could reply with an insult as you did but I won't. :)

[Fresh_Start]

91. Apparently the reason neither cops nor teachers get merit pay

is because it conflicts with being union. Notice that 70% of companies provide merit pay to non-union hourly workers and more than 90% of companies provide merit pay to exempt employees.

It does not mean that the functions are unmerit payable: it means that something about the union makes it unworkable.

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. They are on a step pay scale which is very common for govt employees

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with being in a union.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

106. By how many people they shoot each shift, how else?

:sarcasm:

I didn't really think I needed it, but I've been surprised before.

David

[ColbertWatcher]

13. That asshole of a sheriff in Arizona would love that idea. k+r, n/t

[Joe Fields]

17. can you link me to the crime stats you are using?

and if the crime rate is up, maybe it's because wee have a 30% dropout rate in high school. Why is that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Google it

http://www.google.com/search?q=crime%20rate%20is%20up&sourceid=mozilla2&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Why do we let kids drop out? Yet another policy teachers have no control over. I have written my state rep every year for 30 years now and suggested we stop letting kids drop out of school at age 16. But they have yet to change the policy. And I look at kids every day who don't care because they know they can drop out in a few years.

It's the single dumbest educational policy in this country, IMPO. Yes, dumber than NCLB.

[Joe Fields]

42. another cop out (no pun intended.)

This "lordy, lordy, it ain't me! It's everyone else," excuse is just plain ridiculous, and the people who use it lack credibility in their arguments-ARGUMENTS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN BACKED UP BY ONE SOLITARY FACT.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. I did indeed back up with facts

I can't help it if your agenda is preventing you from actually educating yourself and looking at the facts I shared.

[tanngrisnir3]

18. How about merit points for posts?

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. I get 60,000

:woohoo:

[POAS]

19. Absolutely

If they take extra courses to stay on top of their field, reward them.

Physical fitness is key to their job performance, reward them for staying fit.

If they go the extra mile by teaching kids or helping the community, reward them.

Absolutely fair in my mind!

[paulsby]

90. our unions

(cop unions) have steadfastly fought such merit pay.

unions don't want cops paid merit pay for (for example) physical fitness standards, because they believe that some physically unfit officers will be harmed. which is true, but it just goes to show the police (and teacher) unions aren't there to benefit the citizenry and the kids, respecitvely. they are there to generally benefit the lowest common denominator amongst their members.

there are a very few examples of merit pay, though.

for example, officers awarded with certain commendations (like for bravery), which has to get reviewed by a board, get extra vacation day(s) every year.

i have also seen supervisors offer gift cards for suspects outstanding.

iow, a major frequent flyer dirtbag is on the loose, has outstanding warrants or PC and a gift card is offered to the first cop that can track him down.

the problem with merit pay for arrests and such is that it encourages corruption. that is not true with merit pay for teachers for improving test scores.

so, it's a different system.

we want cops to use judgment and discretion in NOT arresting many times. i frequently issue warnings or criminal cites when i COULD arrest, for example. that's called officer discretion. it's smart.

otoh, with objective metrics for teachers , like improved test scores, we have no incentive for dishonesty/abuse of power like we have with giving cops merit pay for arrests.

also, many agencies give extra pay to cops who have completed certain training, etc.

[POAS]

97. I used these examples

as representative of the type of "merit" rewards that I feel could be used in the professions discussed here, teaching, firefighting and police.

I agree that "results" as a measure can lead to abuse of these systems. Padding arrests and cheating on test scores as two examples. That is why I do not think those should be the measure by which we base a merit pay system.

[callous taoboy]

20. No Dental Patient Left Behind

Merit pay for dentists now! So I hate to floss, I often indulge in double fudge ice cream then don't brush right before bed, I suck soda pop through a straw all day, but if my teeth rot and fall out the dentist should be held accountable. Sure he gave me my homework to do (free floss, sensidyne, toothbrush) but I had too many other things to do. Sure he was encouraging me to avoid gingivitis by flossing daily but flossing always cuts off the circulation to my finger tips so I HATE flossing. Did I mention that I dip?

By the way, what happened to all of those sweethearts from yesterdays "ALL TEACHERS SUCK" fest? I thought they'd be here to give us another drubbing.

[tangent90]

21. No. I think we should keep rewarding mediocrity.

...

[callous taoboy]

23. Guess I spoke too soon. n/t

[tangent90]

33. I'm on record saying teachers are for the most part grossly underpaid.

Cops too...we get our money's worth with both.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. My salary is a reward?

Gee I thought it was pay for work.

[tangent90]

35. It is, or should be. You're an underpaid good teacher; I'm taking issue with the overpaid

shitty ones.
:D

[callous taoboy]

38. I have

this poster and all knucklehead teacher-bashers on ignore.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. My list is growing as well.

[callous taoboy]

49. Ignoring unreasonable children: Works fine at times in the classroom as well.

:evilgrin:

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. I don't have that luxury

I am a resource teacher and have so few at a time that they are pretty hard to ignore. :)

[callous taoboy]

79. I hear you.

[Uzybone]

83. you must be a great teacher, shutting out those who you don't agree with

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. Unless DUers are elementary students

your accusation is completely unfounded.

I am paid to be patient with children. I freely choose to be impatient with adults.

[no_hypocrisy]

24. Merit pay for cops could have unexpected consequences.

They already have quotas for writing traffic tickets. Would you really want to convert that situation to a contest?

[tangent90]

36. Which police departments have those quotas?

Can you name one?

[tanngrisnir3]

37. It is illegal in the US to have quotas for law enforcement.

And yes, I know this from professional experience.

[no_hypocrisy]

51. Doesn't stop them b/c it isn't "on the books".

I'm a traffic defense attorney who's had to deal with clients whose only offense was driving on the last three days of the month. Traffic tickets are revenue for municipalities which can't raise property taxes more and/or impose new or more expensive fees.

[tangent90]

54. What exactly is a 'traffic defense attorney'? Is it something like a

Klingon Warrior?

[no_hypocrisy]

65. Basically, you get a ticket.

You don't want to plead guilty, pay the fine, get points on your license, and pay more insurance premiums. You call me. I go to court and talk to the prosecutor and the cop who wrote the ticket. On a good day, I can amend and downgrade the ticket, say from four points to zero points, no extra insurance.

[tangent90]

69. Ah! I get it, you're the legal advocate that can get a sodomy charged reduced down to

following too close.


:rofl:

[no_hypocrisy]

75. I'm the Queen.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. Yes in my little no crime suburban area the cops definitely hand out more tickets

at the end of every month. There is a speed trap right down the street from my house. Today is the 11th of the month. They aren't there :)

[tanngrisnir3]

85. Which proves, let's see here......... nothing.

In low-crime areas, the only thing to concentrate on would be traffic citations. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with money.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. It proves the cops in my city

give out more tickets on my street at the end of every month.

[tanngrisnir3]

94. No, it proves basically that you have said you believe it, but not...

that it's

A. actually happening and
B. happening for the reasons you state, if it indeed is happening.

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. So you think I am imagining cop cars on my street?

Or are you accusing me of lying?

Maybe I should have taken pictures!

And really unless you live in my neighborhood, how would you prove me wrong? :crazy:

[tanngrisnir3]

101. No, not at all. I'm saying personal anecdotes do nothing towards

being meaningful data to represent an entire town (unless you live somewhere really small) or to prove what you're saying about them giving out citations.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong; I'm questioning the validity of your use of data, and the quality of that data.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. All I said was the cops hand out more tickets at the end of the month on my street

Didn't call it meaningful data or even valid.

But you are free to draw any conclusions you want. Or not.

[tanngrisnir3]

84. Not where I have worked. Utterly illegal and an open door to huge lawsuits.

[etherealtruth]

26. Sounds like a good idea

Let's make sure that police officers and firefighters working in high crime/densely populated areas are rewarded for their level of risk

Let's also make sure that police officers and firefighters that consistently don't quite make it to the fire ... the crime in progress ... are persuaded to improve or leave the force/department.

Its not about test scores (or the police/fire equivalents) its about rewarding excellence and encouraging improvement in those that don't quite make it in time to actually fight the fire.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. But individuals don't respond to fires

So how do you decide who gets the merit raise?

[callous taoboy]

44. How about the firefighter who brown-noses the chief

and ends up getting all of the easier shifts / assignments so that said brown-noser comes out looking like the shining star. This doesn't happen in education. No, not ever.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Great point

Even the few good principals I know play favorites. Must be human nature.

[callous taoboy]

52. Hell, mine supposedly has a "hit list" and all you have to do to be on it

is be a bit over-opinionated. I keep my mouth shut.

[etherealtruth]

50. True ...

... but, if one fire fighter consistently causes his/her squad (?) to be late or ill prepared she will be recognized by the "chief" ... and will be evaluated on the fact that he/she has impeded the entire squads performance ... how long will she last?

If you notice I have never advocated standardized testing as a method to determine teacher pay .... my interest is in rewarding excellence in deserving teachers and weeding out teachers that "suck." as someone further down thread pointed out, you would do better to argue methodology of teaching evaluation.

[callous taoboy]

56. So what if it takes years to put out the fire?

You must realize that, even though we only test in 5th and 3rd grade at my school, it took years to produce the student that comes into my third grade classroom, yet I worry that because the test is on my watch it will affect my pay.

[etherealtruth]

70. I am not an advocate of using standardized testing as a sole measure

I'm not a big fan of the standardized test as a measure of anything but the ability to take standardized tests (I have a bizarre ability to score ridiculously high on standardized tests ... life is a bigger struggle for me).

I do think that excellence needs to be rewarded and poor performers need to be weeded out. Using your thoughts on testing as an example, if the teachers preceding you were all excellent the students that came to you would score very well (even if you were horrid).

My thoughts are that truly excellent teachers are paid the same adequate (or sadly, poor teachers) with the same number of years of service and credentials.

In my mind most teachers would not be effected; they are adequate (meaning they show up to work ever day and do their job competently) those that would be effected are the teachers at either end of the spectrum.

[callous taoboy]

78. I appreciate your derision of the test as the eval. However,

you are going to have to take my word here on faith that the teachers in first and second are some of the best. This is an interesting town I live in. It is a beautiful area and the town is very historic, safe and quiet. It is, in other words, a desirable place to live which makes our school an incredibly competitive place to get a teaching job. We are able to be very selective in hiring.

We are a Title One school, meaning that at least 50% of the student population is on free / reduced lunch. Poverty is one of the biggest challenges in the classroom. We also have a large migrant population, and more often than not migrant students have been enrolled in a dozen schools since first grade by the time I get them in third, yet since I've had them for the year then their test score is my test score. I've had intelligent migrant students do well on the test, but I've had more not do so well because all of the moving has resulted in gaps in their learning. Not much I can do with that except put in extra time with those students even when it means eating lunch together as we work.

I hope this helps clarify my point.

[aikoaiko]

27. Merit pay is fine for cops, firefighters, and teachers -- you're issue should be the criteria

IMHO

[etherealtruth]

34. Exactly

You have summed up what I have been arguing for (over the course of multiple threads) in one concise sentence.

[FLyellowdog]

40. This is why merit pay won't work...

Let's say I'm a bricklayer, hired to build a brick wall and I'm eligible for merit pay if the wall I build is the best super duper wall in town. Of course, I want the merit pay in addition to my regular salary so I say "yippee". The only problem with my building the wall is that I don't get to choose my own materials...I have to use whatever I can find laying around or whatever is assigned to me. The quality of my wall solely depends on the quality of my materials...it makes no never mind how good I am at bricklaying. If the bricks are crumbly or too porous or just plain rotten, I can't build the best super duper wall in town...no matter how much money is promised me.

The same is true of teachers...

When teachers are assigned students in their classrooms, they have NO control over the condition, potential, or the desire to learn relative to those students. Teachers have to accept and teach whomever walks through their door. These teachers are expected to produce the best educated, most informed population in town (state, world, where ever) whether the students have the potential, or the background, or the desire to learn. In education, all things are not equal, just like in police work or firefighters' jobs.

Merit pay is merely a way to "act" like we're doing something to help the field of education. It's not right, it's not good, and it doesn't work. Trust me, there are teachers who receive merit pay because they took "extra" courses and have advanced degrees...yet some of the most mediocre teachers in the field have made up the majority of that group.

[tangent90]

59. The fact that you recognize there ARE "mediocre" teachers means you admit

there are superior ones. And since you obviously know how to evaluate them, you have no excuse for refusing to reward the excellent ones.

[FLyellowdog]

81. Not so...

I don't believe in paying someone extra for doing what they are hired to do in the first place.
I don't recall hearing about people paying their doctors a bonus for saving their life or the fireman getting a bonus for climbing into a blazing structure...that's their job.
Education has never been the place to go it one wants to get rich. Right or wrong,it's a labor of love. But here's an idea...Why not solve the pay initiative problem by simply raising the pay scale for all teachers, make requirements high enough so only the best qualified will apply and then hire those "best" teachers from the gitgo?

Second, people will usually perform at their level of competence regardless of their pay. If I can't physically tote a ton of concrete down the road on my back, no amount of money is going to enable me to do so. We need to do a better job of finding those "best" teachers before we have to start judging who is mediocre or who is best. I believe there are ways to do this. Let's just start the judging before they are hired...require more internship time the classrooms...improve our colleges of education curricula...provide more peer teaching assistance for probationary teachers, just to list a few.

Third, until every person who is concerned about the state of our education system has spent days and days actually working in that system, I don't see how they can offer any suggestions about how to improve the system. Granted, the system has flaws, but it only takes a short look back into the lives of our students to see that a great deal of what is wrong with education starts before the students ever walk into the classroom. There are a lot of problems that merit pay could never address.

This is not a one issue debate. And merit pay is far from being the one solution.

[paulsby]

107. this is simply not true

"Second, people will usually perform at their level of competence regardless of their pay."

i work in a civil service job, similar to teachers. and i see it all the time. many many people , after they realize they can get the exact same pay for putting in an "ok" effort and doing a competent (but not excellent job), eventually "settle" and do just that.

there is little incentive for busting ass, and frankly some disincentive for doing so.

the idea that people will perform the same , regardless of pay, is simply ridiculous.

people (and yes, teachers are not so altruistic and holy that they are exceptions to this) thrive on recognition, and "atta boys" aside, the best recognition is promotion/pay.

that's the kind of stuff that makes people work harder/better in oh so many cases.

[FLyellowdog]

110. Receiving recognition and "atta boys" for one's work is not the same as merit pay.

I don't think people understand the very essence of teaching...this is not a profession where it's every man (or woman) for himself. Teachers are constantly sharing with and learning from one another. If merit pay becomes the norm, all this will stop. Why would anyone want to share ideas or best practices if in so doing, they will be "giving away" trade secrets that could lead to greater monetary return? Greed is a terrible thing to promote because it can result in infighting and a climate of jealous competition. Teachers do not work in isolated cubicles...they depend on and require the support of their peers. The very nature of the job insists on such. This cooperative environment is one of the best things about the profession.

Consider also, that to give merit pay to teachers whose students "perform" better on standardized tests will most assuredly lead to the teaching of the tests...this is unavoidable. We've already seen examples of that across the country. Remember, greed is a terrible thing and can lead to terrible results.

Your scenario may (or may not) be true for civil servants, but not with teachers. I'm certain that the use of incentives in some ways might be workable, just not in the ways we've seen merit pay applied over the last few years. It's too simplistic to say "We should pay our best teachers more." There's just no way that I've seen to do this so that those who are truly "the best" benefit. No one can even agree on what "the best" teachers do that make them "the best". Until we can come up with what "the best" means, we'll only make the situation worse.

[ourbluenation]

63. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

Merit pay works in some situation but not for teachers, cops, etc. There are too many factors beyond their control.

[callous taoboy]

68. Best.Analogy.EVAH!

[damntexdem]

47. How about members of Congress?

No raise if one just says 'no.'

[Diane R]

55. Why are so many teachers threatened by being subjected to basic standards?

[ourbluenation]

57. It's not that they're threatened, its because there are so many things beyond what teachers

can control that affect performance. Why in the holy hell is this so hard for people to understand?

[callous taoboy]

64. Yep. Like trying to explain why intelligent design is not science for some folks here.

[callous taoboy]

61. We aren't? What do you know about teacher evaluations? Just wondering.

[Diane R]

95. I have a Master's in Education and taught for 10 years before I had to stay home w/ an ill child.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. But we are subjected to standards

Ever hear of NCLB?

[callous taoboy]

71. I breathe a sigh of relief when the test scores come back most years:

Not held to basic standards. Tell my ulcer that.

And I included "most years" because for the past two years my third graders have come to me ranging from "pretty with it" to "on fire". However, three years ago I was given the class from hell (they had been a low group since first grade, apparently) and that year I had, I think, 4 who had to take the test a second time, and one eventually failed on the third and final try and repeated third grade. That was the year I developed the ulcer.

[tonysam]

73. The "Step" System is a Hallmark of Civil Service Employment, and Public Schools

follow that.

A lot of bullshit has been spewed on this board by people who really don't understand why there is the step pay system.

Schools aren't businesses. Neither are fire departments or police departments.

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. Bingo!

[doc03]

76. Of course I do. If a Cop or firefighter is

exceptional at his or her job yes. I see some on here that think teachers should get paid more for just being there. I remember some teachers that were lousy when I was in school and are still on the job being lousy. Seniority doesn't necessarily make one a better teacher cop or firefighter.

[leftofthedial]

80. I say we should pay doctors that way.

And politicians.

[Riley18]

82. Love this idea. Thanks!

[vssmith]

86. How about Merit pay for senators

I think there were a number of senators who were not about the business of the senate the last couple of years--Obama, McCain, Clinton, Biden, Dodd, Lieberman and maybe others. There attendance was not good nor was their voting record and I think they deserve at best only 25% of the pay they got.

[GA_ArmyVet]

88. I believe all 3 professions should be better paid to begin with

Those are all historically bottom tier pay for public service but they ar the very ones we count on to protect, rescue and teach us and our children.

I truly believe youget what you pay for, low for police, you get corrupt police, low pay for fireman, you get poorly trained firemen, low pay for teachers and you will get the worst teachers. I am not meaning to insult any of the groups, asI know there are some very dedicated and professional people in all three organizations but we also lose a lot of good people because they will go where they will be paid better.

I beleive all three groups deserve much more than what we pay them now for the hard jobs that they have.

That said, we do need a way to weed out the poor performers and not pay someone for a doing the job badly.

[slackmaster]

89. Yes

I think California Highway Patrol officers, city cops, and sheriffs should get bonuses based on the number of citations they issue to cell-phone talking morons, people who don't use their turn signals, and litter pigs.

Firefighter pay should be linked to how quickly they get to scenes, and how much property damage they prevent by getting fires out promptly.

[Donnachaidh]

98. firefighters yeah - cops no.

In a town where a 92 year old woman was gunned down in her OWN HOME by three cops? HELL no.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

99. The city where I work gives merit bonuses to police and fire.

[ddeclue]

100. YES - I am in favor of merit pay for cops and firefighters.

Merit pay is an incentive to reward improved performance - I'm in favor of it for anyone who has better performance than his colleagues.

Doug D.

[EFerrari]

105. Then you have no idea how a collegial community works

or how important it is to protect it.

[Chemical Bill]

102. How about merit pay for students?

Teachers can't take the tests. Why hold one person responsible for another's work.

Bill

[BamaGirl]

108. They already do here

Something the 'new' chief brought in. Every year, you get reviewed. My husband's last review was about 3 pages long. Basically it's a long list of questions, you get rated 1-3, and they average it. I don't recall the cut off but I think anything under 2.5 and you do not get a pay raise until your next review period. Sounds ok in theory right? The problem here is this system was put in place because the city wants to cut its personnel expenses. My husband's didn't get kicked back (he was shot and promoted last year and it would be embarrassing for the city if it was), but I've heard many stories of officers' reviews being sent down and supervisors told to lower their scores. The problem? In the last four years we've had over 60 officers quit, retire, or force the city to fire them. In four years. In a 160 man department. This is only one of many reasons for the high turn over, but in a city that has had two cost of living raising in 8 years it's a big deal. You bring merit pay for teachers to the South, and we'll be dealing with the same damned thing. In my town at least.

[kaybea]

111. I go by the following formula (as a PA state educator):

180
School days
@
45
Minutes per English class
=
135
Hours
=
5.625
Days
=
Only
1.54%
Of a year

If after that minimal amount of contact, if after ten years of schooling by the time I see them, yet I am utterly responsible for their education and well-being, then I'll gladly leave education when merit pay is enacted. The only ones who will suffer are the students and their parents. I'll find a way to endure.