Custody of a Child and Ownership of a Pet

[Boojatta]

I don't claim that there's any relationship between these topics. Interest in just one of the two topics is all you need to participate in this thread.

Hypothetical fact situation:
A child leaves a parent who has legal custody and goes to either the other parent or some other adult who provides shelter, food, etc., and in many other ways takes on a parental role.

Question #1a
Should the law require the new caregiver to notify the government of the situation?

Question #1b
Should the government automatically return the child to the parent who has legal custody or should there be an investigation to determine whether or not the parent who has legal custody should retain legal custody?

Question #1c
If the child repeatedly leaves the parent who has legal custody, then should government officials feel entitled to assume that the child is at fault and guilty of violating the law?

Hypothetical fact situation:
A pet leaves his or her owner and later follows somebody home. The person who is followed home provides shelter, food, etc., and in many other ways takes on the role of a pet owner.

Question #2a
Should the law require the pet's new master to notify the government of the situation?

Question #2b
Should the government automatically return the pet to the owner?

Question #2c
If the pet is taken from the new master to the owner, but again leaves the owner, then should government officials continue to return the pet to the owner?

[Gormy Cuss]

1. It's simple really.

The cat and the kid should run away and join the circus.

[hlthe2b]

3. The pet might end up being the best guardian for the child....

Certainly has been the case in many a houshold....Seriously...

[undergroundpanther]

11. cats have saved my life

In my house,for many years I was not safe,I stayed in the woods with my cat friends.
I begged my mom to leave my father.one day she did.
But when she was going to move back I ran away.I got beat with a belt,and mom moved a heavy dresser to make me stay in my room,I tied sheets and rappelled out the third story window.Called a friend who had a car to pick me up. I tried to re admit myself to a psych ward my arms were a mess because I was so triggered.The whole thing was so fucked up It ended up with my shrink sitting with mom,my father and I ,and she was trying to convince me I should move back to the house with him there. She said I should move back even after my father held a gun to mom's head trying to kill her. I ran away again after we moved back and met with another shrink I knew.I begged her to find me a place to go. It took months.But that led me into another kind of abuse.

But for me Cats were there when no one else was.I adore them all.

[hlthe2b]

24. That's an amazing past that you lived through....

I think any child who ever experienced loneliness knows the incredible comfort their pets, be it dog or cat, can bring. I'm glad they were there for you. Such amazing, intuitive and loving creatures. We are all the better for having them in our lives.

[sallylou666]

2. Status not comparable

A pet is personal property. A child is a person. I don't understand your comparison. It's not keeping with the legal status of each.

[MedleyMisty]

5. Remind me to never let you near my cats

They are not property. They are living beings.

[demwing]

6. Legally, a pet is personal property

Regardless of the emotional objections we may make. No need to blame the poster.

[uppityperson]

22. I would hope your cats are living beings.

Living beings can still be property though I am glad your cats are alive.

[sallylou666]

26. Cat Rules

My cat is king of my house. Just ask the dogs. :-)

I'm just reporting the law. I don't make them.

[Boojatta]

10. "I don't understand your comparison."

Where did I make a comparison?

[undergroundpanther]

12. Cats are better than people to me

and neither cats nor kids are anyone's property..Even though our culture treats both as if they were property to be owned.

Parents yell you can't do that to MY kid.Yeah a kid belongs to a parent..MINE..MY kid. Uh huh..

Both cats and kids are living creatures with their own lives and desires and shouldn't be owned by anyone.Taking care of a kid or a cat does not entitle one to OWN either.
Cats are my freinds I take care of them protect them from harm. But they stay here because they want to.

I wanted to leave my parents. But it was hell to escape them because the state said I was their property..So to escape I became a "ward of the state" owned by the state.

But honestly I recognize no owners.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. The idea that children are the property of their parents is sick.

Of course children are in a different developmental state than adults and need protection and care but too many parents see their kids as extentions of themselves or as domestic animals that need to be "broken". The worst are religious extremists, with their corporal punishment and brainwashing. So many kids from fundie families end up messed up. Good for the ones who break free.

[rcrush]

4. ok

1a. Yes
1b. investigation.
1c. no
2a. no
2b. no
2c. no

[rvablue]

8. I can't believe you said no to 2b

So, if someone's indoor cat is accidently let out by a repairman, for instance, gets spooked, runs, and finds itself on your porch on a cold night and you let it in and feed it and shelter and weeks later the owner of said cat finds out you have it and wants it back, you don't return it???

Sorry for my wordy scenario, but I found this disturbing.

[undergroundpanther]

13. This is how I would deal with it..

I would observe,if the cat wanted to go back to them or not.

If the cat was happy to see them and greeted them as friends and seemed to know them and miss them . I would I'd recognize a relationship was there. I would return the cat.

If the cat ran away and hid from them ,than no,I would not return the cat.

If the cat was abused, I would most definitely keep the cat away from them.

And I would use similar judgment regarding a kid.The welfare of the kid and the relationship they had takes precedence over the parental ownership claims.

[rvablue]

14. Well, that makes more sense....I guess I just read the OP too literally

because the second section was prefaced with "if an animal followed you home.."

Obviously you are an animal lover and caregiver as your cat-butterfly pic is adorable.

With your explanation, your responses make much more sense!

:hi:

[uppityperson]

23. I'd also say the 2 people work it out rather than the Government.

reading literally also.

[rcrush]

17. No

The question said that Should the Government return the cat. I think it could be worked out between the two people and maybe the government doesnt necessarily need to get involved and maybe do something useful.

Unless the cat is being abused I dont think its worth their time.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

7. Someone working for us is in such a situation

Mother has custody, the child was thrown out by mothers meth cooking biker boyfriend and the fathers wages are being garnished by the great state of California to pay child support to mother who has not spoken to her son in two years.

Government doesn't give a fuck,

[sallylou666]

25. Go back to court

The father needs to go back to court to modify the custody and child support. The court can order the mom to pay child support to the father. The father has to hire an attorney. It will cost more $$$. The father should consult with an attorney in his state.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. he DID go back to court and lost

Mother claimed to have continued to provide financial assistance even though the kid had left the home and was thus dependent on continued support from the father. Unfortunately his son doesn't want anything to do with either parent and even rejected his grandparents when they showed up.

California is as anti-father as it comes in these matters, I know of another situation where a child had been living with her non-custodial father for an extended period and it wasn't until the mother was incarcerated that he was able to successfully discontinue support. The state was more interested in the fact the child was in the home of the non-custodial father than that child had been abandoned by the mother.

[suston96]

9. Take a sword and slice both the pet and the child in two...........nt

[stillcool]

15. You don't say why the kid has..

gone to another parent, or if the cat was spayed.

[Boojatta]

16. If there is no investigation, then how would government officials know

why the child went to live with either the other parent or some other adult?

The second hypothetical is not necessarily about a cat, but is about any pet who may have an opportunity to escape.

[stillcool]

18. you know..back in the day..

I was "temporarily' given to people to raise when I was a year old. The government knew nothing about my status until I got to High School, and the people because of school requirements, had to become my legal guardians. I lived in other places through those years, passed around like a basket of bread. I was always told how fortunate I was to end up where I did...and I think that's probably true. Even though there was abuse every which way, I know from other people's stories it could most definitely have been worse. I don't think the statistics show that foster kids in the system fare any better than those under the radar. I had no 'parents' involved so perhaps that makes a big difference. I don't know.

[northernlights]

19. the dog, cat, hamster, bird, or whoever

should hide the kid in the woods and feed it table scraps, mice heads, corn, seeds and whatever, until it is old enough to scrounge on its own.

No need for government or parental intervention.

[uppityperson]

21. Answers: no, no/maybe, no, no, no and no..

1a no
1b do not automatically return, if notified, investigation is ok, otherwise no
1c no, child is a minor and the law was for the parents.

2a no
2b no
2c no

Having been in situation 1, an investigation can happen but no, child should not automatically be returned to parent who has custody. If child continues to move away from custodial parent, the custodial parent, or other adult, can instigate and investigation as to why to ensure the living situation is ok, no abuse happening or happened.

Having been in situation 2, if my cat really felt that strongly about getting neutered that he moved next door, several times, I gave up any claims since he was happier over there. I tried to explain why he had a sore bottom, but I don't think he understood. Boy did he give me a dirty look when I brought him home and let him out of the cat carrier. Poor kitty.

[knitter4democracy]

27. Interesting questions considering the past legal history of the two.

Pets had legal rights, thanks to the Humane Society, before children did. In fact, in the first child abuse case, the lawyer for the child based his argument on the animal cruelty laws just passed, and the judge went for it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. Yes to all questions.

But for different reasons.

a) Unilaterally keeping anything, including pets, which belongs to someone else is stealing.

b) Kids don't get to pick with whom they are going to live. Parents who allow it are neglectful and negligent of their responsibilities - they should "notify the government" that their kids have run away from home. Similarly, if a kid shows up on your doorstep, it is incumbent on you to talk to their parents to inform them of the situation. Failing that, you should talk to the cops. Just because he knocked on your door doesn't make you the "new caregiver".

[crimsonblue]

30. These aren't comparable.

Children and pets are completely different. Children are sentient beings born with natural rights. Pets are lesser animals without many of the natural rights we enjoy. Nobody can own a human, but we may exert our superiority over animals via ownership.

[ddeclue]

31. You know some scientists are now saying children and pets - not the same thing...

look into it..

:P