I really hate the term "illegal immigrants"

[Stinky The Clown]

Take that at simple face value and ascribe NO other meaning to it.

[vadawg]

1. i dont mind the term at all, its technical and very accurate, better than aliens, to x filey

[obiwan]

15. I agree.

The term is accurate.

"Illegal"- against the law + "immigrant"- from another country =
"Illegal immigrant".

Simple and accurate. A description, not an insult.

Sounds fair to me. Please grow a pair, metaphorically speaking; sometimes the world is not what you want it to be. Since you are not the omnipotent Creator, live with it. Or change the law.

I obey the law. You probably do too. Why not others from other countries?

[Marie26]

19. Misleading & inaccurate

Quote: "Illegal"- against the law + "immigrant"- from another country =
"Illegal immigrant".

That's wrong, inaccurate & misleading in that it implies that it is illegal to be here w/o documents, when it is not. "Undocumented immigrant" is much more accurate.

[Angleae]

It is illegal to be here (in the US) without documents.

Either proof of citizenship (birth certificate, certificate of naturalization, certificate of citizenship (federal form N-560), etc) or visa. Otherwise you are committing a violation of US immigration laws.

[Marie26]

36. No.

That's not true. Quote me the federal statute that makes it illegal to be in the U.S. w/o documents. You won't find it because it doesn't exist. That's a common misconception.

'Undocumented' does not mean 'criminal' - http://tracypress.com/content/view/11557/2244/


Christie: Immigrants are not criminals

"Being in this country without proper documentation is not a crime," (U.S. Attorney Christopher) Christie told more than 60 residents and town officials. "The whole phrase of 'illegal immigrant' connotes that the person, by just being here, is committing a crime."

Being undocumented may be a civil wrong, but it's not a criminal act, Christie said.

"Don't let people make you believe that that's a crime that the U.S. Attorney's Office should be doing something about," he added of entering the country illegally. "It is not." ...

While Christie told the audience it doesn't take a "genius" to see there's a "serious immigration problem" in this country, he stressed an undocumented immigrant is not a criminal unless that person re-enters the country after being deported.

Rather, the state's top federal prosecutor called the problem of undocumented immigration "an administrative matter" that U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement is supposed to address.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/04/immigrants_and_their_advocates.html#comments


Q: Christie said immigrants in the county illegally are not automatically committing a crime by their presence. Is that true?

A: Yes. "Illegal presence" as the offense is called, is not a violation of the U.S. criminal code. A person cannot be sent to prison for being here without authorization from immigration authorities. It is, however, a violation of civil immigration laws, for which the federal government can impose civil penalties, namely deportation.
http://blogs.chron.com/immigration/archives/2008/04/post_122.html

[TahitiNut]

39. Try using that sophistry the next time you're cited for an "illegal left turn."

The pretense that a misdemeanor isn't a 'crime' and, therefore, it's not 'illegal' is a ridiculous posture.

[Marie26]

40. It's not sophistry

It's accuracy. An "illegal left turn" violates the criminal code & is therefore a misdeamenor under the law. It's a crime & you can be criminally prosecuted, fined or potentially jailed. "Illegal presence" in the US DOES NOT violate the criminal code - it is not a crime, you can't be criminally prosecuted for it, or fined for it, or jailed for it. It is not sophistry to say that something is not a crime when it is not a crime - it's the truth.

[TahitiNut]

52. It's a legal distinction without a substantive difference.

It's reasonable to infer that a person who's an unauthorized alien (the 'proper' term) also entered illegally, either by crossing the border without authorization or by overstaying a visa. While you might quibble with the non-technical use of the term "illegal," I quibble with the use of the term "immigrant." Guest workers are not "immigrants." Individuals using H1B visas are not "immigrants." Unauthorized aliens working in the U.S. are not necessarily "immigrants," irrespective of legal status. All of those whom I've described either agree or intend to keep their citizenship in their own country, whether it's Canada, Mexico, Poland, or Liechtenstein. Thus, the use of the term "immigrant" is just as rhetorical as the use of the term "illegal" if not more so. Indeed, I'd at least say that the latter is more likely to be honest than the former.

It reminds me somewhat of the sophomoric asses who whine at the demonym "American" to describe a citizen of the United States of America. It's an idiotically adversarial 'gotcha' that has no productive purpose and yields no positive result. Like playing the race card to sabotage any and all discussions of the corruption of an immigration system for the purposes of trafficking in human labor.

[Marie26]

71. Whatever

No, it's not reasonable to infer that, since almost half of undocumented immigrants entered the country legally (via passport, visa, etc.) So millions of "undocumented immigrants" have committed no crime at all, not even a misdemeanor. While some immigrants intend to stay permanently, many do come to work. That's why I supported Bush's guest-worker program.

And I have to wonder about all the whining about how undocumented immigrants are "CRIMINALS!!" or "illegal" when that is not the case. It's an idiotically adversarial attempt to create a derogatory & criminal image that justifies extreme measures. And it yields no positive results. Kind of like conflating human trafficking & slavery (a serious felony) with undocumented presence (no crime at all) for purposes of bolstering your self-righteousness.

My point, which I am making repeatedly, insistently, & annoyingly, is that undocumented presence in the U.S. is not a crime. And more than 40% of undocumented imm. entered totally legally & haven't committed one single crime at all. Not even a misdemeanor. So is it accurate to call them "illegals"? IMO no. And even for those that crossed w/o going through Customs, that is a misdemeanor that's not even enforced. As the U.S. Attorney said, they prosecute employers, traffickers, drug smugglers - not undocumented immigrants. And even that misdemeanor is a one-time offense, committed at the border. Sort of like a driver who makes a left-hand turn & commits a misdemeanor. Should that driver be referred to as an "illegal driver" forever thereafter? How about someone who goes camping w/o a permit at a federal national park (also a civil violation). Are they "illegal campers"? Or worse, simply "illegals?" If not, why not? Why label one group w/that term, and not another? Words MATTER.

[TahitiNut]

104. Your posts are one-sided in the extreme.

Who Is An Alien For Purposes Of United States Immigration?

An alien is any individual who is not a citizen or a national of the U.S. Within the category of alien are several distinctions:
Legal alien: one who is permitted to remain in the U.S. based on certain terms
Resident alien: one who is permitted to reside in the U.S. either temporarily or permanently
Nonresident alien: one who is permitted to visit the U.S.
Illegal alien: one who resides in the U.S. unlawfully, either as a result of illicit entry or an excessively long stay that outlasts the duration granted by a non-immigrant visa

http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/Legal-FAQs/Citizenship-and-Naturalization/Federal/who-is-an-alien-for-purposes-of-united-states.html

[alstephenson]

110. I don't find Marie26's posts one-sided or extreme.

Actually they are very informative (to those with an open mind).

[Angleae]

47. Start with Title 8, USC

Particularly chapter 12. Then move on to the Immigration and Nationality Act, particularly chapter 2, act 211.

[Marie26]

48. OK

You haven't quoted any statute that makes "undocumented presence" a crime because you can't. Instead you've made vague reference to some immigration statutes in the hopes that'll give some cover, w/o ever quoting the specific provisions. I've done that below:


INA: ACT 211- DOCUMENTARY REQUIREMENTS

Sec. 211. <8 U.S.C. 1181>


(a) Except as provided in subsection (b) and subsection (c) no immigrant shall be admitted into the United States unless at the time of application for admission he (1) has a valid unexpired immigrant visa or was born subsequent to the issuance of such visa of the accompanying parent, and (2) presents a valid unexpired passport or other suitable travel document, or document of identity and nationality, if such document is required under the regulations issued by the Attorney General. With respect to immigrants to be admitted under quotas of quota areas prior to June 30, 1968, no immigrant visa shall be deemed valid unless the immigrant is properly chargeable to the quota area under the quota of which the visa is issued.


(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 212(a)(7)(A) of this Act in such cases or in such classes of cases and under such conditions as may be by regulations prescribed, returning resident immigrants, defined in section 101(a)(27)(A) , who are otherwise admissible may be readmitted to the United States by the Attorney General in his discretion without being required to obtain a passport, immigrant visa, reentry permit or other documentation.


(c) The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to an alien whom the Attorney General admits to the United States under section 207.



--- This regulates who INS can admit to the U.S. NOTHING here makes it a crime to be present in the U.S. w/o documents.


Title 8, Chapter 12 is the entire "immigration & nationality" section. It has 4 subchapters & over 100 provisions. You can't just refer to an entire code as if it proves something - which provision in that code specifically makes it illegal to reside in the U.S. w/o documents?

[Angleae]

49. You want specifics?

8 USC 1325
Chapter 12
Subchapter II
Part VIII

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

[Marie26]

50. See post 25

That refers to entry - I'm looking for a statute that makes undocumented presence in the US a crime (as per your original post). It's really OK to admit that there isn't such a statute.

[Angleae]

55. If you are present in the US without documentation/authorization

then you entered without documentation/authorization, had it repealed, or it expired.

[Marie26]

72. Mostly.

If you entered w/documentation/authorization & it was repealed, or expired, etc. than there is no law that makes your presence in the U.S. a crime. Also, even for those who entered w/o authorization, the act of entry is a misdeamenor, but there's no law that makes living & residing in the U.S. a crime. So, your original post was inaccurate. It's simply not a crime to be in the U.S. w/o immigration documents.

[Bill McBlueState]

82. So...

If I lose my birth certificate, and I don't have a passport, do I have to go to a different country?

[Synicus Maximus]

127. No, because you can get copies of your birth certificate or passport.

[LanternWaste]

81. Much like speeders may be validly referred to as "illegal drivers"...

Much like speeders may be validly, technically, and accurately referred to as "illegal drivers", or jaywalkers as "illegal pedestrians"; but as it's something we all do, we prevent any possible pejorative interpretation from it.

[alstephenson]

112. No human being is "illegal"...

An individual's actions can be illegal, but not the individual.

[LanternWaste]

121. I agree...

I agree... my point being that we selectively use the term 'illegal' only when it better demonizes a particular demographic, never against ourselves. We have all been guilty of speeding at one time or another, yet we never call ourselves 'illegals', though the term would be just as valid (or invalid) if applied in such a manner...

[Synicus Maximus]

123. True, no one in and of themselves are illegal, but

they can be in a location that is illegal for that person to be in. And it can be illegal to be in country without the proper documentation.

[alstephenson]

128. Yes, illegal actions.

Not illegal people.

[liberalhistorian]

2. How else would you describe those who

attempt to circumvent the law in coming here instead of doing it legally and who then attempt to hide their status?

[Stinky The Clown]

4. You're ascribing

[Marie26]

12. Undocumented

In that they don't have the required documents (visas, etc.).

[Squatch]

14. ...which are required by law

hence "illegal".

[Marie26]

16. Nope

It is not illegal to be in the U.S. w/o documents. It is NOT a crime. That's why no one can ever be charged w/being an "undocumented immigrant" & no one can be arrested or convicted for this "offense." If someone doesn't have the necessary documents, they can be deported via a CIVIL administrative process.

[Occam Bandage]

17. dupe.

[Occam Bandage]

18. They are required by law to live and work in the United States.

It is false to deny that documentation is required to legally live and work in the United States.

[Marie26]

24. No

No, documentation is not required to legally live & work in the United States. That is exactly my point. If you do not have documents to live & work in the United States, that is NOT ILLEGAL. It is not a felony, or even a misdemeanor. It does not violate any criminal law. While you may be subject to deportation, that is a federal administrative decision. My quibble is with the term "illegal", which has a very specific definition that does not apply to this situation.

[Squatch]

22. Nope right back atcha

Title 8 USC Sec 1235:

"Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both."

[Marie26]

25. Nope back at you.

That statute refers to *entry* to the U.S., & it is only a misdeameoner. There is no law that makes *presence* in the U.S. w/o documents a crime.

[Squatch]

33. Going to have to disagree with you on those...

So, as long as you make it across and establish "presence" you're good to hook, eh?

"There is no law that makes *presence* in the U.S. w/o documents a crime."

Check out Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Court. Failure to provide identifying documentation to a law enforcment officer in the course of a criminal investigation can be a criminal offense.

"That statute refers to *entry* to the U.S., & it is only a misdeameoner."

A misdemeanor is still a criminal act.

[Marie26]

37. Or

If you entered w/a valid passport or work visa & then overstayed. That accounts for at least 40% of the "undocumented" immigrants. Hilbel vs. Sixth Judicial just requires suspects to identify themselves. That wasn't an immigration case & it doesn't require suspects to show valid immigration documents. The police are not the INS.

[vadawg]

45. nowadays thats changing with the new programs

everyone arrested is now screened for status, if illegal ICE is notified and a detainer is put on them until ICE ascertains if they want a hold. Then they sit in jail no bond until ICE comes and gets them and deports them. I processed over thirty illegals today for ICE to collect in the next couple of days.

[alstephenson]

113. You must work for Sheriff Joe.

[michreject]

65. If they weren't born here

How did they get here? By entering the country illegally. That's how.

[Marie26]

73. No

See above. Almost half of "undocumented immigrants" entered the country legally & haven't committed even a misdeamenor. How are they illegal?

[michreject]

76. What a croc.

Almost half of "undocumented immigrants" entered the country legally

This makes no sense what so ever.

[Marie26]

77. How so?

It's the truth - how does that not make sense to you?

[michreject]

80. How would you legally enter the country

With no documents? The border patrol doesn't just let you in.

[Marie26]

86. OK

Most people enter the border legally by showing a passport, visa, etc. That's enough to cross the border. Later on, the visa or passport might expire, & that person is now "undocumented" (or w/o immigrant authorization). But they haven't entered the country illegally. That situation applies to almost half of "undocumented" immigrants in the U.S. Or, for example, someone can enter w/TPS (temporary protected status). The U.S. gov. will give this status to immigrants from a country that has political persecution or a huge natural disaster. So people w/the TPS status can enter the U.S. & live & work in the U.S. legally w/o being deported, even though they never had a visa. So, for example, thousands of Hondurans immigrated to the U.S. w/TPS status after Hurricane Mitch. If the U.S. gov. changes its mind & removes TPS status for that country, thousands of immigrants are now instantly "undocumented". People tend to think of immigration as an either/or situation (legal or illegal), but the truth is that immigration status changes based on a number of factors, and people fall into & out of status all the time.

[alstephenson]

114. Geez, read the posts.

[michreject]

116. Thanks for adding absolutely nothing to the discussion nt

[Kali]

31. yep

"UDA" is what the border patrol uses. You are correct - being in this country without the proper documents is no big crime. People that seem to get so hung up on the law when it comes to Mexicans in the US make me wonder.

[Squatch]

34. Actually, the BP's use the word "Tonk"

Having worked with them, I know that's their reference of choice.

[Kali]

41. what does that mean?

I don't work with them but they are crawling all over the place here. I've only heard them use the term UDA's.

[Squatch]

54. They told me it came about as an allusion to the sound

a MagLite flashlight makes when striking a person over the head. The BPs I've worked with typically only carry a weapon and a flashlight when apprehending alleged illegal immigrants.

[Kali]

92. ah I can see why I don't know that, being a "civilian"

and one who is generally somewhat hostile in our encounters (and now I have yet another reason to feel hostility!)

[Marie26]

38. It's a pet peeve of mine.

:) I don't see why people get so hung up on it either. When I see Lou Dobbs types turn red ranting about how "It's a CRIME!" it really makes me wonder what the real agenda is. No one seems so upset about undocumented Canadians, of which there are quite a few!

[Kali]

42. I'm really sick of it all.

It's a stupid game and just like the war on drugs, the war on Mexican workers is an EPIC FAIL. If all they need are papers they can have some of mine, I got plenty. Seems to me we could put the criminals out of business and MAKE money creating and selling entry documents instead of militarizing the border.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. There's good money in printing "entry documents"

Just find someone's social security number and use it.

Who knows, he might even have good credit.

[Kali]

94. Well, I was thinking more of an official business

instead of wasting time and money chasing them all over the universe, collect half what they pay the polleros, give them some traceable legal documentation and let them go on. Of course the big businesses that hire won't allow that, they like it the way it is but I can dream...

[tekisui]

70. If you can " criminalize" a group of people who look different,

you can discriminate against a race. That's what it's about. When you establish labels, like "illegals", then you can ignore them, treat them badly, dehumanize them, exploit them. That is the objective. And, it is wrong.

[Marie26]

74. I agree.

Labeling people is something we should be wary of anyway, and *especially* when it's labeling a group of people based on race, or ethnicity, or religion. And most especially when it is a group that is vulnerable, powerless & possible to exploit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. Between 65,000 and 75,000 Canadians

6.5 million Mexicans, 510,000 El Salvadorans, 430,000 Guatemalans, 280,000 Philipinos, 280,000 Hondurans, 270,000 Indians

So yes, there are quite a few Canadians. One for every 100 Mexicans.

[noiretextatique]

120. it's the r word

an american tradition.

[Control-Z]

56. By that logic, it is not illegal

to drive without a license.

[Marie26]

75. Nope

Check the state law, & you'll find a law that makes it illegal to drive without a license & spells out the sentence for the criminal offense (jail time, fine, etc.) There's no law making undocumented presence illegal. So it's not the same thing at all.

[obiwan]

21. Or proof of U.S. citizenship required by law to work or get public services.

If I tried this " undocumented" crap in Mexico or other countries, my ass would be in jail and there would be no question that I broke the law.

If there is a visa, fine. But "no trabajo" or public assistance unless that visa is an H1B or similar.

[Marie26]

27. No problem

My one & only point is that it is not illegal to be in the U.S. w/o documents. The gov. can & does require documents to receive public assistance, etc. And by the way, Mexico has recently decriminalized undocumented immigration. So it's not illegal there either.

[BlooInBloo]

29. What if they're documented, but still here illegally?

(I'm really just curious to see how far this linguistic idiocy will be pushed, to find a solution to a non-problem.)

[Marie26]

32. I don't get the question

If they're "documented" & have the necessary immigration papers to reside in the U.S., where's the alleged illegality?

[liberalhistorian]

108. And they don't have the required documents because

they're here illegally and, thus, unable to obtain them. It's really pretty simple.

[alstephenson]

129. Are you talking about ALL undocumented immigrants???

That's a pretty broad brush stroke! What about children who were brought here by their parents when they were 2 or 3 years old? What about immigrants who came here legally, but their status has changed? What about, oh, never mind.

[w4rma]

3. What term would you prefer to use to describe immigrants who are here illegally? (nt)

[Stinky The Clown]

5. You're ascribing

[w4rma]

7. To what cause? (nt)

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. Me too. What makes us assume they wish to immigrate? n/t

[w4rma]

8. Illegal workers? (nt)

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. It's a venn diagram

The inner circles consist of "workers", "residents", "immigrants", "students" etc. The outer circle is aliens.

Every illegal worker or illegal immigrant or illegal student is also an illegal alien. If it seems unkind... the law is like that sometimes.

[Occam Bandage]

10. The fact that they are no longer in their country of origin,

that they are settling for a period of time in the United States, and that they have not been transported against their will. Temporary work-based migration is still migration.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. By that standard, Iraq has a lot of illegal immigrants too. n/t

[Regret My New Name]

43. Are you comparing undocumented/illegal immigrants to an occupying army?

[Marie26]

44. Hardly a new sentiment

I've seen people on this very board advocating shooting people at the border.

[Regret My New Name]

46. I'm sure the number of real members who believe such ridiculousness is fairly low.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Your response is better than "How dare you call our troops illegal immigrants!"

No, there are several significant differences, but their unwanted presence in someone else's country for selfish purposes is not one of them.

[Occam Bandage]

9. Well, I can see disliking the fact

that it implies that the illegality applies to the immigrant and not to their act of immigration; people are not 'illegal.' However, I think "person who has illegally immigrated" is too awkward to use, so "illegal immigrant" I think is accurate though a bit charged. "Undocumented immigrant" seems a more neutral term, and I prefer to use that. I think "undocumented worker," on the other hand, is a bit off. The question is not one of working, the question is one of immigration. An "undocumented worker" might well be a contractor who works for cash (and is not on anyone's official payroll), and that is an entirely different problem.

[Telly Savalas]

13. I prefer to refer to people as "illegals"

that way people can quickly detect that I'm both an idiot and an asshole.

[GA_ArmyVet]

130. Spot on...

I like the way you broke that down, and tend to agree. An accurate and eloquent description.

[Marie26]

11. Especially since it's NOT A CRIME!

Look it up! So what's "illegal"?

[Squatch]

23. Try Again

Title 8 USC Sec 1235

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

[Marie26]

26. See above. nt

[greenkal]

20. Describing someone as an illegal

makes it sound like they don't have a legal right to exist. That's only one step away from the Nazi ovens.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. One small step for hyperbole, one giant leap for reality. n/t

[greenkal]

35. Maybe you didn't pay attention in history...

but the first step towards mass persecutions is always to dehumanize your enemy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. I always thought the first step toward genocide was breakfast.

Momma always taught me to eat a hearty breakfast if I have a busy day planned.

The "first step" to anything bad is something benign or at least understandable. A desire for people to comply with the law is not "dehumanizing".

I wish there was a better term to describe what they are doing, too. "Illegal alien" is about as good as it gets, the adjective which describes a prohibited activity is "illegal" and "alien" is the noun which describes a visitor to a country in which (s)he is not a citizen. Thus, someone who sneaks into another country = illegal alien.

"Illegal immigrant" is a euphemism. To make their intentions seem more benign, it implies that their intent is to immigrate, and for many if not most, this is demonstrably false. It is completely silly to watch us wring our hands trying to find a less derogatory euphemisms to describe people who are engaged in illegal activity.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

118. Were ALL your Momma's children born with their cord around their neck? n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. Only the ones who did pay attention in history class.

Am I dehumanizing you?

[asteroid2003QQ47]

132. "Am I dehumanizing you?" You likely would if you could but you can't!

Paying attention to 'history' your sort wrote hardly leads to legigimate qualifications.
----------------------------------------

When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat, "The Law"-1846

[bunkerbuster1]

63. While it's more than one step away from the ovens...

I agree that it makes as if these human beings themselves are "illegal" in a manner that we would never, ever attribute to "illegal drivers" (those who go over the speed limit, or do not come to a complete stop at a stop sign) or "illegal taxpayers" (those who find themselves in need to paying owed taxes that they'd neglected to report in a previous year).

And I bet that we wouldn't be referring to them as "illegal aliens" if they were perceived to be overwhelmingly white.

[Cleita]

51. Other people who study this phenomena agree with you and

prefer the term "undocumented workers". They aren't illegal. They are hired illegally by employers on this side of the border because those employers either didn't check their documents thoroughly or often even supplied them to the workers themselves.

[Hello_Kitty]

53. I hate the phrase "jobs Americans won't do".

It's racist, elitist, and offensive on many levels.

[shari]

57. yes

It implies that Americans are lazy. This is really hard for me to swallow, coming from a family of loggers and lumbermen, and just plain hard workers. Where I live the main industries have always been the lumber industry and fishing, both really hard work.

[Hello_Kitty]

58. It also suggests that certain people are naturally predisposed to be slaves

It amazes me that cheap labor apologists accuse ME of being racist while it is they who are advocating for an underclass of low wage workers.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

59. Here is "simple face value' with "NO other meaning"---

[yellowwood]

61. So True

And look what "open borders did for the Native Americans.
And on that note: PBS "American Experience" is going to feature of four programs on the Native American experience. Should be good. We'll see if PBS "corns" it up the way it often does such features. The program is called "We Shall Remain."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/weshallremain/

[asteroid2003QQ47]

69. Those who defend the usage of "illegal immigrants" would make a good...

case study for Doctor Kuriansky. In labeling the 'others' illegitimate they grant themselves legitimacy.
Seems like good old fashioned greed to me. Sadly, some things never change.
:toast:
------------------------------------

People often try to hide unacceptable behavior from themselves or others by engaging in behaviors or causes that speak to the opposite intentions.
--Dr. Judith Kuriansky,
Licensed clinical psychologist in the
Department of Clinical Psychology at
Columbia University Teachers College

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. My presence in this country is legitimate. n/t

[asteroid2003QQ47]

117. The absence of a link indicates otherwise! eom

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. Guess you're going to have to sue to get at the truth.

:hi:

[asteroid2003QQ47]

133. It's been a long hard day, the friendly wave is not unappreciated.

:hi:

[Indy Lurker]

60. Perhaps it means they operate illegally

From driving without a license, or without required insurance, to working under an illegal social security number.

[bunkerbuster1]

64. yebbut come on.

We don't refer to other people who may be out of compliance with the code that way.

I think there's a tremendous lack of self-awareness among Americans on this issue--they've been lulled into thinking of PEOPLE as "illegal," which is another way of dehumanizing them.

Recognize those who are here without documentation for what they are; I'm not trying to sugar coat the threat to our own economic well-being that they may present. But don't call them "illegal."

(I should mention that I've posted on this topic before, and got the same kind of pushback from otherwise fairly enlightened posters, so don't take this as being aimed at you in particular. It took me a long while before I stopped myself and asked why I was referring to this group of human beings as "illegals.")

[eilen]

68. Working with an illegal social security number implies identity theft

Identity theft is a crime. So I guess that the individual would be considered a criminal. Is that the correct logic here? How about refugee? Economic refugees -- foreign economic refugees. FERS. In my brother's profession, he is a carpenter... he calls FERS, more like F-ERS as his wages have been depressed and his work has been displaced by labor "in-sourced" with this border jumping phenomena.

I guess I'm a horrible person and an asshole too.

[Kali]

99. maybe you could esplain to your brother

that the workers aren't the "F-ers" - that the situation is more complex than that and as usual it is greedy assholes at the top of the food chain who are the real fuckers.

[eilen]

101. He has plenty of time to talk

seeing how his contracts are all underbid and he has no unemployment insurance to fall back on.

[Kali]

106. Trust me I know the results - the husband is a stone mason and we are

very close to the border ... still we happen to understand the bigger picture and don't blame workers.

[alstephenson]

115. "Operate illegally"???

Those are a lot of assumptions. What if they ride a bicycle and don't drive? What if they aren't using a stolen SS#? What if their parents brought them here when they were two years old? I know, I know, "what part of "illegal" don't you understand?".

[bunkerbuster1]

62. Could almost not agree more...

except my beef is with the term "illegals."

At least the term "illegal immigrant" designates that which is (technically--and not really, if you take into account what corporate America really wants, which is a fresh supply of less expensive labor to be allowed to cross borders at their beckoning) out of code.

When I hear people call others "illegal," that's another matter. It becomes personal, and a kind of slur.

[pampango]

66. It's like focusing on the illegality of Blacks sitting in at lunch counters in the South.

While they were indeed breaking the law, progressive focus was on the bigger picture. We didn't call them illegals simply because it was illegal for them to be where they were.

We spend too much of our time here discussing the "illegality" of immigrants rather than the bigger picture of why they come here. Immigration is not the same as civil rights, but in both cases it was and is important to focus on the big picture, not solely on the enforcement of current law.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

67. The one I really dislike is "undocuments migrants".

The issue is not people who are in a country without documents, it's people who are in a country in deliberate violation of the laws of that country.

I think "illegal immigrants" is the best term for such people, and "undocument migrants" is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate.

[Belial]

78. So lets make up names for things so when the law is broken

they sound lot less severe...

[Kali]

102. or lets make the civil code that may or may not have been broken

sound like a crime that needs to be enforced and punished by extreme measures. Having no papers is such a severe crime...

[Iktomiwicasa]

79. Wish my folks...

... would have clamped down on unauthorized immigration about 500 years ago :)

[nichomachus]

83. Most of us are illegal

We do things all the time that are technically against the law. So, we're all illegal.

When my right-wing sister was ranting on about Clinton during the '90s hate fest, I simply asked her if she had ever won money on lottery scratch tickets. She had (which I knew) -- several thousand dollars, a few hundred at a time. I asked her if she reported it on her income tax. She hadn't.

I informed her that technically she was guilty of tax evasion, perjury, and mail fraud. And, if someone were willing to spend $60 million to track her down, she could conceivably go to jail.

[anonymous171]

84. I think "Illegal Immigrants" is OK.

However, I think that using "Illegals" is dehumanizing and wrong. All it does is inspire hatred against the immigrants themselves, which is what the elites want. I am against illegal immigration, but I am for the immigrants. We should close corporate loopholes, restrict immigration, and grant amnesty to all illegal immigrants currently living here.

[aikoaiko]

85. If a person immigrated to our country illegally, then its a fine term.

Regardless if they work with documentation or not.

[Kansas Wyatt]

87. Okay.... FRAUDULENT immigrants who are also co-conspirators to employment fraud.

People knowingly violating immigration and employment laws, when they enter and work in this country.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot undo, first illegally immigrating here and then illegally working here. Nope, someone pissing on this nation's laws from the start, does not earn that person a free pass.

[tangent90]

90. Thanks but I'll just stick with the term. It does not offend me.

...

[Deep13]

95. I don't like it because it implies...

...that people who sneak into this country are genuine immigrants.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

98. It's A Perfectly Logical Thing To Reference Them By.

If you hate it, so be it. Everyone has their irrational peeves, so this can count as one of yours.

[MessiahRp]

100. I never blame "illegal immigrants" anyway...

If corporations weren't always looking to cut corners at the expense of the American worker and taxpayer, there would be very little reason for people to come here undocumented anyway.

Rp

[Kali]

103. What, you want to look for real causes to the racist infighting

by the victims of rotten policy?

[MessiahRp]

107. That would be the idea...

Strangely enough I think America, if it started casting a glare at the ruling class, would find much more in common with those of different races, sexual orientations and genders than themselves because then they would realize we've all been gamed this whole time and that that ruling class wants us to fight to distract us from the crimes they are committing against us.

Rp

[Gin]

105. same here.....lumping "immigrants" with "illegal aliens" tarnishes the term immigrant (IMO)

[quickesst]

109. We could just call them..

..people crossing the border illegally, without proper documentation, but "illegal immigrants" is accurate, and to the point. Thanks.
quickesst

[TWiley]

111. I have been sayiing ...... ILLEGAL AMERICANS

To describe the Swiss Bank Account felons.

[Thothmes]

119. What do you want to call them, be my guest.

[noiretextatique]

122. another whiny liberal "pc policeman"

:sarcasm: i reserve the right to dehumanize people with language and since Lou Dobbs agrees with me, i am obviously right.

[dysfunctional press]

125. then don't use it.

problem solved.

[vaberella]

131. I'll take "illegal immigrant" over ALIEN any day. Seriously. n/t