Corporate America is in the process of destroying itself

[Elwood P Dowd]

and our country. Reading the Circuit City threads is just a small sample of what is happening everywhere. Corporate America is 180 degrees out of phase, as we say in the electronics business.

Ten years ago I didn't know anyone that was unemployed. I didn't know anyone that was underemployed. Today, I know dozens. My nephew has a college degree, yet the best job he could find pays $7.50 an hour with zero benefits. What can he buy with that salary? Circuit City lowers wages, and suddenly their workers can no longer afford to shop at Home Depot. Home Depot lowers wages, and suddenly their workers can no longer afford to shop at Circuit City. It's a vicious cycle that's spreading throughout the country. Everyone is now forced to buy Chinese junk from Wal Mart. You buy a $50.00 DVD player that lasts a year and then throw in the dumpster and buy another one. Mom and Pop stores are closing everywhere. Family farms are a thing of the past. A college education is almost worthless. What a fucking mess!!!!

[rurallib]

1. When FDR signed SSI into effect he said something like

"those guys don't even realize I saved capitalism for them. And they will never appreciate it." And so in finally undoing much of FDR's magic, capitalism will finally realize that supply side (making stuff) doesn't work without demand side.
Of course the whole world gets a royal fucking in the process.

[Jonathan50]

2. The root of the problem is "corporate personhood"..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juristic_person

A juristic person is an artificial entity through which the law allows a group of natural persons to act as if it were a single composite individual for certain purposes. This legal fiction does not mean these entities are human beings, but rather means that the law recognizes them and allows them to act as natural persons for some purposes--most commonly lawsuits, property ownership, and contracts. The concept goes by many names, including corporate personhood.<1> A juristic person is sometimes called a legal person, artificial person, or legal entity (although the last term is sometimes understood to include natural persons as well). Although the concept of a juristic person is more central to Western law, particularly common law and civil law countries, it is also found in virtually every legal system.

Some countries, including Germany, France, and Spain, have treated juristic persons as real, natural persons.<2> In England and the United States, the use of this terminology does not mean that artificial legal entities are considered human beings. It's simply a "technical legal meaning" where "a 'person' is any subject of legal rights and duties."<3> Because artificial entities have legal rights and duties, they are considered persons. To distinguish them from natural persons, we call them juristic persons.

[Deja Q]

72. Except most people get stronger prison terms for what rich corporations DON'T get.

I thought it would have been a two-way street in terms of the rights accorded citizens, and punishments.

Oops, silly me. :7

[diane in sf]

94. I don't believe in the death sentence for humans,

but I think it would be a great idea for certain corporations.

[lvx35]

3. yes.

Your post captures so much of what is going on. I'm not sure what to say. Its all so bizarre.

I live by a dollar store. I was putting together my bed, so I had to buy a screwdriver. I bought two from the dollar store, but they became trashed so fast I had to buy two more. Then two more. In the end, I threw six full size screwdrivers in the trash to put this bed together, so shoddy was the quality. And I am standing there asking 'why'? Knowing full damn well the free market crowd considers these 6 screwdrivers in the trash to be a victory, because they raise the GDP much more than 1 functional $5 screwdriver ever could. So good metal and plastic in the trash is what makes this country strong?

This is one thing in this sea of millions of things. There are just no words for how fucked up things are.

[Elwood P Dowd]

9. I've started buying used stuff from eBay.

Sometimes I happen on a piece of electronics manufactured in the 70s that is cheap. Replace a few parts--maybe $30.00 tops--and you have something that will last another 10-15 years. The quality of the electronics built today isn't much better than a clock radio built 20 years ago. It's mostly junk unless you can spend several hundreds bucks per component. This also applies to appliances, tools, and many other products.

[NuttyFluffers]

15. you should freecycle! :D better than buying, it's barter!

www.freecycle.org

and there's always Craig's List, there's tons of stuff people just give away or trade.

[B3Nut]

22. I'm big on 70's hi-fi gear

Usually easy to work on, and built like a tank. Only high-end gear today can equal or better it, mass-market stuff can't come anywhere close. Old Pioneer, Marantz, Sansui, Kenwood, Yamaha, Onkyo...I'll take that gear over any modern consumer audio. Steel chassis, aluminum front panels, often woodgrain or even real wood cases, and high quality parts - that stuff was built to last. Thrift stores, yard sales, even the curb is where I find this stuff. Though it's getting harder to come by it as the thrifts eBay a lot of the gear now since Vintage is now the "in-thing" in many audio circles. Little wonder why, most of the affordable audio gear sold in the big boxes is flimsy crap.

And if you have speakers with rotting foam surrounds, places like Parts Express sell refoam kits. They're great for breathing new life into perfectly good old speakers, especially old Advents...

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[twiceshy]

41. I've got an old Marantz amp circa 1972.

I think it needs a tube or something. I'm looking to sell on ebay.

[Elwood P Dowd]

42. What's the model number?

1972 Marantz amps were solid state. They changed from tubes to solid state in the late 1960s.

[onethatcares]

58. that's some nice equipment, Marantz

I had the 2020 receiver/amp combination. For 20 watts rms, it put out some sound. I think I saved up and bought it at the PX for 120.00. Whatever happened to Marantz/Pioneer/Craig? I see Bose is still around but the high end affordable stuff, I don't see anywhere.

[Elwood P Dowd]

61. Marantz is still in business. I think Philips owns them

or they did at one time. They still make good equipment, just not as good as their gear from the 60s to mid-70s.

Bose = cheap plastic crap with awful parts but tons of marketing expense.

[Wilber_Stool]

55. You'll have to pry my

Marantz 2270 from my cold, dead hands.

[B3Nut]

105. Ah, the 2270

One of the greats. I had a 2245 from that era, it was a splendid unit. I hated parting with that one, but I got into a tight spot... :(

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[Elwood P Dowd]

108. Here is a 2275 on eBay currently at $800.00.

If this unit were built today using American labor and the best quality parts, it would retail for over $3,000.00.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2275-MARANTZ-PRISTINE-91-WPC-MINT-WALNUT-CABINET_W0QQitemZ230108812283QQcategoryZ50591QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[robinlynne]

56. I have old advents!

[Elwood P Dowd]

70. Nice speakers. Here is a site loaded with Advent information.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=5

[immoderate]

81. Nothing beats my Dynaco A-25s c. 1970

Pushing them with a Carver receiver, newer but still good stuff.

--IMM

[Elwood P Dowd]

85. Those are good ones too.

It's an easier speaker to drive than the Advent. One of the best bookshelf speakers ever made. Dynaco was a great company back in the 60s and 70s.

[yowzayowzayowza]

96. Naw, I'll stick to my...

Yamaha NS1000M's. Pushed 'em once with a coupla the monster Carver amps... sweet.

[Elwood P Dowd]

97. What about JBL Jubals or the Altec Stonehenge?

The NS1000Ms were good, but when you put some tubes on JBLs or Altecs......different world. No wonder those things go for $2,000 on eBay.

[B3Nut]

104. A-25's a a fantastic loudspeaker

Norwegian SEAS drivers. The ceramic-magnet SEAS woofer the later A25 used is still available from Madisound, it's a classic 10" bass driver. SEAS and Morel make tweeters that are drop-in replacements for the originals. The A25 is a legendary speaker, and used ones can be had for $100 or less if you hunt.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[immoderate]

106. Dynaco fans will love my friend's rig:

Four A-25 speakers, each driven by a Dynaco Model III tube amp (60 RMS watts each!!!) and Dynaco tube preamp and tuner! Sure fills the room with sound. He's a tech; I'll pass along the info on the drivers, but I bet he knows that. Thanks.

--IMM

[Elwood P Dowd]

109. Maybe we need a vintage hi-fi group on DU.

There seems to be several of us old farts who know a little about the stuff from the old days.

[immoderate]

112. Hi-fi doesn't mean much anymore.

It seems like really good sound is not the priority it once was. I cringe sometimes when I hear the sibilance in "remastered" CDs that don't sound anywhere near as good as the original LPs of those same albums that I bought in the late 50s and early sixties.

The group you propose is an interesting thought, but I wonder if there are enough of us to sustain it. How many times can you go back and drop those names? McIntosh (Aahh!) Klipsch (Oooh!) And remember when Scott and Fisher had tubes? (Mmmh!) My Aiwa dubbing cassette deck is in one of a couple of cartons in storage. I must find it.

Maybe we should just occasionally hijack a thread like this. :) The vintage hi-fi group may just go the way of the graphics group which had some really good info, but not enough traffic.

Edit to add: From your speaker choices above, it seems like you favor a California sound. I lean toward the New England myself.

--IMM

[Elwood P Dowd]

113. I still have over 500 albums.

Purchased my first LP back in the 1950s. Play them on VPI and Dual turntables. I have yet to find a CD player that will beat a good analogue rig.

You are right about sound quality. Not many people care about quality today. Then you have some here on DU that subscribe to the "cables make no difference - all amps sound the same - digital is perfect" crowd that I've had run-ins with in the past.

Most of the general public have never heard a well designed and properly tuned high end audio system. McIntosh, Audio Research, Klipsch, Magnepan, Quad, VPI, Vandersteen, are all unknown to most. They certainly know little about old Scott, Fisher, Dynaco, and HK tube gear. What's sad is that you can cobble together an inexpensive system with an old Fisher receiver, Dynaco speakers, and Dual or Thorens turntable that will literally destroy anything you buy new at Circuit City for $1,500. That old stuff just sounds more like real music, and so does some of the current high end offerings. I forgot to mention there are still some new products available that are affordable: NAD, PSB, Rega, Epos, and Music Hall are a few.

[immoderate]

115. I sold my vinyl.

:cry:

I had about 7,000 albums, but I was moving a bit, and I'm getting too old to load that weight onto trucks and schlep it around the country. I kept my Dual, and a few treasured albums, but it's not hooked up where I am now.

There was a time when I had trained my ears so well, that I started to hear the distortion of the equipment in the recording studio. Or at least I thought I did. (You and I may have tangled once about the importance of cables. No pun intended.)

I consciously stopped listening to the sound so much, and more to the content. The best CDs sound OK to me, but not as good as the records. But there was always the surface noise.

I stopped once in a Bose outlet because I was curious about the Wave Radio(?). What a joke. They want a thousand dollars for a table radio. No doubt the "modest" system you describe above would blow it away.

I sent a link to this thread to my friend with the Mark III amps.

--IMM

[Elwood P Dowd]

117. Cables do make a difference

but you have to own the ears and the equipment to hear the benefits. Most people don't....have either.

I've sold thousands of my LPs, but kept the best ones.

Bose is a joke. They make some horrible stuff. You should look inside that crap.

The Dynaco MK III amps are excellent and lend themselves well to major mods. Usually, the electrolytic power supply caps need replacing along with some of the resistors.

[immoderate]

122. If the cables are good enough....

...then you can hear what brand of cables were used in the recording process? I await the double blind evidence.

Why not silver cables? They conduct better.

--IMM

[kineneb]

82. also have '70s stereo equipment

Hubby's friend was moving some years ago and we bought his system, then added used pieces to it:

Yamaha CA-400 amp
Pioneer turntable (for our many vintage LPs)
Sankyo top-loading cassette deck (I bought it new in the late 70's)
Realistic mini-speakers (the really good ones)
Onkyo CD player(purchased used, probably from the early 90s)

I will not part with my "vintage" system... because it works!

[Clark2008]

36. This is why I buy American.

My father was an engineer (CAD-CAM operator) in the 70s and probably designed the molds for many of the electronic equipment you're purchasing on ebay.

By the 80s, he had been "outsourced" so many times, he just opted for an early retirement rather than move for the umpteenth time.

Now, he works part-time at Lowe's so that he can get discounts on stuff to piddle with around the house.

[Prophet 451]

98. The Sam Vimes "boots" theory

The Sam Vimes "Boots" theory holds that buying cheap is usually false economy. The explanation (and the reason it's called the "Boots" theory) is this: A poor man spends ten bucks on a pair of boots. Those boots fall apart after a year and the man has to buy another pair. The rich man pays a hundred bucks and has a pair of boots that keep his feet warm and dry for a lifetime but because the poor man can't afford to pat the hundred all in one go, over a lifetime, he ends up paying far more and still has wet feet.

Electronics are the same. If you pay ten bucks for a clock-radio, you'll end up paying the same as the guy who paid $100 and you'll still be late for work. My stepfather, who was an electronics engineer, taught me this. That's why he insisted on paying top-dollar for his hi-fi equipment.

He also taught me the dirty secret of the the electronics business: Planned degradation. Unless you pay big money for the top brands, electronics are designed to burn out after a few years. The big brands don't need to do this because they're an aspirational item but because "cheap" is more of a selling point than "quality", the smaller brands use cut-price materials which they know will die in a few years in the sure and certain knowledge that you'll buy another to replace it. This is why I've always built my own PCs.

[NuttyFluffers]

101. "cheap is expensive"

it's an oxymoronical addage i use with my friends. it encapsulates pretty much the same concept you mentioned. there's a reason why wealthy families tend to have estates that keep rising in value. buy expensive goods that will last forever and you can give them to your posterity. in time they save money from not having to buy new versions of said products. and if they are passed down long enough they start to increase in value as antiques. if you can afford the initial overhead, buying high quality first ends up being cheaper in the long term. hence, "(buying) cheap (products) is expensive."

[martymar64]

111. That 's why I buy Macs instead of PC's

I've had my eMac for three years and it hasn't crashed once! When I had PC's, I'd have to replace the machine once a year.

[Prophet 451]

120. Never really got used to Macs

I don't know why but I never got comfortable using a Mac. With PC's, barring occasional fault replacement, I find I only have to do a complete rebuild every three years or so (this one is coming to the end of it's lifecycle).

[butterfly77]

90. What I want to know is..

why haven't more people taken to the streets in front of the whitehouse, capitol or anywhere else to tell these assholes " I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore"! The redstates must be doing just fine...

[NYC]

114. All the other products are just like your screwdrivers.

I'm sick of it. When there's absolutely no choice, I wind up buying a cheap Chinese product. It doesn't take long before I'm back to needing the same product.

I'm trying hard to do without whatever it is. Find something reliable I can use instead. I've also begun looking in thrift shops for tools, housewares, etc.

Cheap Chinese products cost a fortune because the money is wasted.

I keep wondering who is pocketing the money.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. There's one thing we can do about it but most people are too lazy:

Patronize locally owned businesses if there is one available that sells the product you need (not want, NEED).

If you need a computer, don't go to the big box store--go to the local store owned by a bunch of geeks who love computers and won't sell you a pile of junk.

If there's still a locally owned grocery store in your community, patronize it, even if it's a few cents more on each item.

If there's a locally owned restaurant in your community, eat there instead of at a fast food joint or chain restaurant.

Don't offer lame excuses, such as, "WalMart sells tomato soup for ten cents cheaper" or "My kids prefer McDonald's" (and just who took them to McDonald's in the first place, hmm?) or "I don't know where there are any local businesses."

Only WE can save the small and local business by veering off the path of least resistance and seeking out those businesses that offer what the chains don't: personalized service and pride in their products.

[tom_paine]

14. Correct and very well said.

I don't always do this, but I try to do it as often as possible. Luckily, I don't feel like doing a lot of driving on the weekends, so patronizing the local independent grocery is not only the right thing to do, it's also the lazy thing to do.

:evilgrin:

[NuttyFluffers]

16. some wisdom needs to be emblazoned on plaques, with gold leaf. this is one

though i fear i might go blind if all that gold leaf ever catches the sunlight...

[raccoon]

23. I much prefer locally owned restaurants to fast food joints or chain

restaurants.

IME, the quality of the food is better. And you can get a meat and 2 or 3 or a vegetable plate instead of a double cheeseburger or whatever.

You have to make the effort to find the good ones, though. Or ask around among your acquaintances.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. Yes, when I was a kid on family road trips during the 1950s and 1960s,

every little burg had a restaurant or two that served delicious homemade burgers and sandwiches and desserts, usually with a "blue plate special," a meal that consisted of a meat, a vegetable, and potatoes. These small restaurants also served as the social center of the town.

Even if you're in the most barren and conformist strip mall suburb, the strip malls often contain wonderful little ethnic restaurants. By patronizing them, you can help an immigrant family make their way in the U.S.

[kineneb]

83. just tried out the "restaurant" at the local JC

excellent fresh food and really fast service, all from my fellow students.
Remember to support your local food service classes!

[AwakeAtLast]

25. The new local restaurant in my town advertises, "Fresh, local"

That place in NEVER empty. And I'm in really Red Indiana.

:hi:

[shrike]

28. And I do just what you advise

Except the local computer geeks sold me a lousy computer which blew up, literally, on the day their warranty expired. They're out of business now, serves them right. But we found a guy two hours from us who builds computers, very reasonably priced. I've had this thing I'm typing on for five years, and no problems. If only he built laptops.

I buy plants and birdseed from a small, family-owned store. We patronize restaurants owned by men and women who have turned into friends. It's nicer to eat in those places, anyway. We have a local meat market/butcher shop. Our grocery store is owned by a local family. I just discovered a great used bookstore; its owner is a really cool guy. The one problem I have is with clothing; nothing around here sells decent women's clothing. But if I had my way I'd never again set foot in a big box. And I tell my friends that the quality of service alone in an independent store is worth any extra money you pay. I walk into these places, tell the owner what I need and I'm out the door again in minutes.

[w4rma]

100. Yup. Unfortunately laptop hardware is almost always all soldered onto the motherboard and each

board is made specifically for whatever proprietary design that the manufacturer decided to use.

It would be nice if there were some computer manufacturers that would start making modular laptop parts like we have for desktop computers.

[Le Taz Hot]

33. Great suggestions.

Though I do support local businesses year 'round, it's especially advantageous to do this during the holidays. I avoid the shopping malls like the plague and look for the little mom-n-pop gift and specialty stores. It's amazing how many of them there are if you just keep your eyes open AND you won't be fighting those horrible crowds.

[Deja Q]

71. Most people like 'brand recognition' and in office/doctor waiting rooms,

people bitch and gripe about the high cost of their local person so that's why they moved to ____ chain. (then they often complain about the quality of the chain... well, duh... x( )

The two folks I was listening to a couple months back (they're in their 70s FWIW) would have had me laughing, if I didn't realize how pathetic they were. Never mind it was about leaving a local stylist for the chain store one.

If people from a nearly-sane time buy into this garbage line of thinking, it's not helping anybody else either.

The rat race is over. The rats won. Fortunately they're eating the hides off one another, so eventually we will still have to rebuild. So sit back, enjoy the ride, the small businesses WILL come back into favor. The OP has a point about corporate America suffocating itself.

[Morgana LaFey]

78. Find co-ops or CSAs for as much of your food as possible

OR grow your own!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

80. I'm lucky in having a well-stocked co-op just a couple of blocks

from where I live. It was one of the selling points of the neighborhood, as was easy bus access to most of the places I go. There's also a butcher shop that buys meat only from local farmers who raise their livestock humanely and without antibiotics, as well as a an old-fashioned hardware store that appears to have one of everything.

[Morgana LaFey]

91. Obviously, I need to come live with you

:hi:

[shance]

84. Are there any 'local computer stores owned by computer geeks?

Id shop there in a heart beat.

I'm in LA.

If anyone knows of one in this area, lemme know!

Absolutely on your post by the way.

The best way to take our country back is going local.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

86. I patronize a locally-owned Apple specialty store in Minneapolis

I found it by looking in the Yellow Pages.

Can't help you out in L.A. :shrug:

[whistle]

5. American business management supreme goal is ALWAYS to

....raise the price and lower the quality.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

6. No legitimate company could spin off millions and millions to the top tier

A small company can't do it , and neither can a large company.

It's like that joke about the guy who buys ingredients for $1.00 and sells the burger for 80 cents. When asked how he made a profit, he said "Volume".

And that's about it in a nutshell. Take the dough and run and leave the stockholders and the pension plans and the employees and the 401K's holding the bag. Hahahahaha! It'd be really funny except that they are dragging the country and cities and towns and individuals down the tubes but it's really important that they have the millions and millions and millions that their lifestyles require and their connections guarantee.

[PhilipShore]

7. Corporate America is in the process of destroying America

[Double T]

8. The USA is definitely in the self destruct mode..........

the terrorists must giggle themselves to sleep every night knowing all they need to do is sit back and watch, while 'We' destroy ourselves.

[earth mom]

38. Exactly-who are the REAL TERRORISTS anyway?! nt

[progressive_realist]

10. The "America" in Corporate America

Is on its way to becoming meaningless. The multinationals will do just fine -- they are already salivating over the burgeoning middle classes in China and India. The potential markets in those countries are almost an order of magnitude greater than the American market. Look for many more "American" companies to pull a Halliburton and move their HQ overseas.

The only way to save the USA would be to reverse the last thirty years' worth of inane free trade / free market / privatization policies. But that's not going to happen. We're screwed.

[Elwood P Dowd]

11. The fake free trade deals

Don't get me started. :evilfrown:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. And the average American at the corner bar understands this

better than the corporate executive or the DLC policy wonk or most of the Democratic presidential candidates.

[Lasher]

20. That is a very important point, progressive.

Multinational conglomerates don't care about America unless there's something to exploit. American executives' loyalty to their corporations trumps patriotism. Yet there are many fools who think they can count on some sort of benevolence from corporations to promote US interests. They dont's care if the US economy collapses as long as they can peddle their wares elsewhere.

[warren pease]

51. Sorry. Dupe

[warren pease]

52. As Ned Beatty said in "Network"...

Beatty plays a master of the universe type, and he's "re-educating" Howard Beale, an insane but influential TV talk show host with populist leanings. Beatty 's character needs Beale to change his tune and support a takeover by Arab investors of the corporation that owns the network. He takes Beale into a classic corporate board room and tells him:

"...You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations! There are no peoples! There are no Russians. There are no Arabs! There are no third worlds! There is no West! There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immutable, interwoven, interacting, multi-variate, multi-national dominion of dollars! petro-dollars, euro-dollars, multi-dollars!, Reichmarks, rubles, rin, pounds and shekels! It is the international system of currency that determines the totality of life on this planet! That is the natural order of things today!..."

It was the truth when the movie came out in the '70s, and it's the way of the world today.

Full speech here:

http://www.whysanity.net/monos/network2.html



wp

[Morgana LaFey]

79. EXTREMELY IMPORTANT POINT

I've been shaking my head in wonder for the last couple of years about the destruction of the middle class: what is WRONG with these companies, not thinking about what they're doing?

You've just answered my question. Nothing's wrong with them. They know very well what they're doing and don't give a damn about America's middle class.

Thanks for the enlightenment (no matter how much it hurts).

[Vidar]

12. Good riddance, but it's a shame that we perish along with the villains.

[devilgrrl]

13. Check it out... a lot of people at work only got a 1% raise!

:wtf:

[Lasher]

21. And the Social Security COLA will be 1.5% next year

Yep, pretty soon we'll just be one big servant class except for 1% of the country. That's the 19th century social structure the right wingers long for. We'll all be peasants, happily toiling in the fields all day for our betters who own them. I can't wait to pick out my grass hut to live in.

[cpamomfromtexas]

92. Hey, hubby only got a 40% paycut! Lovely for a family

[rman]

17. The really big 'American' corporations can do very well without the US;

they are destroying the country, but not necessarily themselves.

[tbyg52]

18. Unfortunately true

They will probably not destroy themselves. They need to be reined in by *government*.

[cassiepriam]

19. They don't care that soon few will be able to buy their goods or services.

The top cats have already made $ billions.

[raccoon]

24. Where will it all end, I wonder? Folks, I went to Mexico last year.

Crappy roads, poorly maintained, water you can't drink, everybody (it seems) selling trinkets, poorly paid crappy jobs, and every house and store walled up and all the windows barred.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid that's where the US is headed.

[shrike]

29. And everybody peddling whatever they can find, in hopes of making a few bucks

Like in Guadalajara. I looked at my husband while we were there and said, "That's our future."

[tjwash]

31. If you want to see the unravelling of our country...

...go into some of the more impoverished parts of the USA. They resemble the third world countries that I have traveled to. Run down shacks that should be condemned that have people living in them. Large areas of houses that are boarded up. Bad plumbing and water that will make you sick if you drink it. Run down roads that have huge pot holes. Massive amounts of unemployed just sitting around because the local walmart supercenter isn't hiring anyone.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. When I was volunteering in Mississippi after Katrina last year, I often got

the eery feeling that I was in the Peace Corps helping out in a Third World country. Five months after the storm, there was still so much rubble lying around and no one to clear it away except small groups of volunteers. People couldn't even get FEMA trailers until their lots were cleared, and some were too poor or too frail to do it themselves. And I thought, "This is what our military SHOULD be doing instead of trashing Iraq."

[misanthrope]

125. That exists just a couple of hours north of me...

...and in smaller pockets here in my county. Thing is, those conditions reach to us from out of our past, from the rural areas of the state least touched by modernity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. It's a not-so-secret secret that one of Mexico's problems is "flight capital"

The elites siphoned off massive amounts of the foreign aid that was intended for Mexico, and it's now sitting in their Swiss bank accounts--literally.

Furthermore, the maquiladora manufacturing areas are all owned by foreigners, so the profits revert to other countries, not to Mexico.

[earth mom]

39. Sounds like New Orleans. :( nt

[Amonester]

62. Two words, a movie, and look who "played" in it: the $icko...

$oylent Green

~snip~
"In 2022, New York City is populated with 40 million people, half of whom are unemployed. The air is smoggy and sooty, and the sun bakes everything, everyday, at 90 degrees. Overpopulation and the destruction of the environment may have rendered human life cheap, but food--that is, real food--is quite expensive. A jar of real strawberry jam costs $150, if it's available--supermarkets don't exist anymore. The government now dispenses rations of food substances made by the Soylent corporation: Soylent Yellow, Soylent Red, and the newest product, Soylent Green."

"But even these Soylent products are in short supply. Riot police are always dispatched when Soylent is distributed, because violence kicks in when the food runs out. Thorn (Heston) is a member of this modern, beleaguered police force, which pilfers every crime scene for the necessities of life. When Thorn is called in to investigate the death of a Soylent Corporation executive, his take is a treasure trove: a towel, a bar of soap, paper, and some real food--celery, a couple of apples, and half a pound of beef."


The current neo-mob is well on its way to THAT 2022 if you'd ask moi. :grr:


Edit: oops... Am so mad, I forgot the link to the review (on da first googled page):

http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue55/classic.html

[SharonAnn]

118. But a few extremely wealthy, politically connected families own everything.

[The2ndWheel]

26. Actually people are mostly just in the way

We're not efficient. We need food, we need to sleep, we have kids. All of those things cut into production. More of everything is automated, so people are needed less and less.

The more of everything that is produced, the cheaper it is. A perfect example would be human life. There are 6.5 billion of us, and growing. We're expendable. As more and more jobs can be done from anywhere(because automation takes care of most of the work that needs to be physically done in front of you), why would corporations give you anything? They have the upper hand. Corporations like Monsanto want to own food. Once that happens(and it will, maybe slowly, but it will), you have nothing left to negotiate with.

It's not about "America" anymore. It's not about "China" or "India" either. If these entities still exist, they're hanging by a thread. There is no such thing as an American job, there never was. That job was simply a cog in the process that has been going on for thousands of years.

Obviously energy is a big part of the equation. If we have cheap energy, we'll do alright. If we don't have cheap energy, there are more potential slaves today than have ever existed to get the job done.

The corporation no longer exists for us, we exist for it. Don't believe me? Ask the people who get laid off at the drop of a hat. We humans just aren't as productive and efficient as is needed anymore.

[cpamomfromtexas]

93. Reminds me of what AMR's CEO said-- if it has a heart it's a liability- SICK BASTARD

[silverweb]

119. Who is AMR?

:shrug:

[cpamomfromtexas]

123. AMR is American Airlines parent company

[silverweb]

124. Thanks.

I googled it, but there were too many options for me to be able to figure it out.

:)

[newportdadde]

27. I think they know exactly what they are doing.

The key here is to keep the American consumer flush with cash created by printing greenbacks for as long as possible while that blooming China and India consumer comes into its own. They key for them is to let the air of the middle class out slowly... get both parents working jobs, then pull back those health benefits.. etc. Most importantly do it gradually with cheap interest so you can get everyone hooked up with some nice debt. My are moving through a generational lowering of the standard of living.

How long before we see the 60 year mortgage?

[earth mom]

34. I don't care that corporate america is destoying itself. I care that they are destroying people.nt

[leftofthedial]

37. Capitalism serves a smaller and smaller group of elite plutocrats

at the expense of everyone and everything else on Earth. It is a sucker's game unless you are among the super-wealthy.

[antigop]

40. And the question is.... what are US workers doing about it?

It is still legal to join a union. They haven't taken that right away from us yet.

Why didn't Circuit City workers unionize?

(Yes, I know it is very difficult to get a union in, but that's about the only way this cr*p is going to stop.)

Do they try to find people to run for office who will support labor?

For whom do they vote?

At what point do workers become enablers?

Flame away...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. Thanks to 25 years of relentless anti-union propagandizing, a lot of

low-wage workers think that unions are evil. I doubt that unions are even on their mental maps at this point, other than as some part of the despised "liberal" ideology.

I saw a sad instance of this in Portland in the mid 1990s, when the grocery workers' union struck Fred Meyer (a regional chain similar to Target) for imposing unpredictable schedules on full-time workers so that they were full time one week and part-time the next and thus lost their benefits. (You will not be surprised to hear that this occurred after the chain was bought by out-of-state investors.)

The store that I usually patronized was located on Hawthorne Avenue, the New Age/counterculture/yuppie wannabe neighborhood of Portland, but it drew on working class areas as well. I had to enter the Fred Meyer store occasionally because it was where the FedEx drop-off box was, but I always explained this to the strikers and sometimes brought them snacks from the nearby bakery. Yet I saw unchanged numbers of working class and poor people patronizing Fred Meyer just like always.

I wanted to walk up to them and say, "Don't you know that these people are striking for YOU?"

But the talk radio stations were telling them that the Fred Meyer workers were "spoiled crybabies," because they got benefits.

That's the dirty secret of how the right-wingers set working class people against one another. If one group has benefits that the majority don't have, the right-wingers try to make other working class people jealous and resentful of them. Too many people readily believe whatever they're told by outside authorities, so their mindset is, "Why should the unionized workers have benefits when I don't?" instead of "Why can't I have benefits when the unionized workers do?"

[antigop]

46. Sounds like a great slogan, Lydia......

"Why can't I have benefits when the unionized workers do?"

[PhilipShore]

59. They call it neo-liberalism

Low-wage workers think that unions are evil. I doubt that unions are even on their mental maps at this point, other than as some part of the despised "liberal" ideology.

That assumption of Unions and liberals was written -- by Republicans -- specifically Freepers.

During the 2000 election, I was amazed at all the anti-liberal bashing going on at Indymedia, (and they were all Micheal Moore fans). I thought hell all this anti-liberal stuff, I read someplace else -- other then here at Indymedia, and sure enough, as I would compare a majority of the anti-liberal statements at Indymedia with freeper statements, they were the same statements -- made by actual freepers, at Free Republic.

And those same freepers (the Micheal Moore fans) would support anti-semitic speech by Palestinian Rights supporters -- (whom were also Micheal Moore fans) -- that were actually quoting "word for word" World war II Nazi posters, of anti-Semitic propaganda slogans, used to incite hatred toward the Jews.

[bbgrunt]

95. yes, they have done a phenomenal job of

creating an animus towards unions in the very population that they benefit. That and the union busting policies of
corporations and republican politicians has been very effective.

With the move away from mfg. and the disposable employee it becomes even much harder to organize

[antigop]

102. Yes, it has become harder to organize. but....

This is a perfect example of a group that could benefit from organizing. These jobs cannot be outsourced if they want people working in stores.

[Firespirit]

47. It's gone past unionized work at this point

It's affecting "white-collar" jobs too. Mid-level managers, office workers, etc.

The destruction is affecting every stratum of society except for the corporate robber barons.

[treestar]

57. The main problem is the match between what kind of labor is needed

and what kind of labor the worker can do. All you have to go on is generally what you've heard. You hear there are so many lawyers, so you figure don't go into that field, or that there aren't enough nurses, so you go into that field. But there's only so much you can do to guess where you can get a job.

We have let corporate America makes ourselves responsible for training. We would have to unite to refuse to go to college - the employer should pay for the training of that which it needs rather than expect people to take that risk on themselves, over four year or more programs, and then let the job market dictate whether it was worth it or not.

Somehow the answer could be that - refuse to look at college as job prep school and either don't go or study the humanities. Then make the corporations train people for specific jobs. That may be impossible, but it has only been dogma for the past 50 years or so, and maybe it can be unlearned.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. Less than 50 years

It was only around 1980 or so that corporations began refusing to hire liberal arts graduates.

My personal theory is that they had two reasons for this:

1) Lower training costs, as you have mentioned

2) The courses for a degree in business administration or computer science or engineering is heavy on job skills and low on courses that require you to htink about difficult ethical questions or the emotional ramifications of a situation or the history of a phenomenon. People without a liberal arts background make more compliant employees.

Not so coincidentally, the Reagan administration wiped out all federal college aid except loans (and they raised the interest rates on these), teeny-tiny Pell Grants, and...ROTC. The advantage of ROTC is that it pays full tuition and textbooks...and fills up students' schedules so that they have even less time for liberal arts electives AND does a pretty good job of indoctrinating them into the mindset of "America must be the biggest bruiser in the world."

[Firespirit]

67. #2

DEAD ON.

I speak as someone who went through this curriculum -- one of my biggest mistakes, as far as I'm concerned, and I feel very fortunate that I avoided a career in the field and that I have been able to supplement my knowledge of philosophy, history, and literature through independent study.

[lonestarnot]

43. screwn.

[Firespirit]

44. It's truly outrageous

I'm in my mid-20s, and I have a degree in software engineering.

I'm working in politics and making just enough to support myself and put some money away in savings at the end of each month. I can make the occasional plane trip and treat myself with a DVD, music, or new clothes a couple of times a month. I don't make a ton of money, but I'm not losing ground. When I was in school I was being told that I would be making twice what I am.

I consider myself very fortunate.

A number of my former classmates are either working as benefits-less wage slaves in the software industry, or they ended up out of work because their jobs were sent to Asia, and they went for the one organization that would employ them, the U. S. government. Several of them ended up trapped in the NSA or DOJ. A few years back, I was interviewed by these two agencies myself, and rejected (I suspect because of my political affiliation). It was a blessing.

This is just one profession, of course, but it does seem to me that the Bushie government took maximum advantage of offshoring and dangled carrots over these increasingly desperate out-of-work geeks. The ultimate loyalist is one who depends on you with no other choice.

[Kelly Rupert]

48. I'd advise you to re-read your Marx.

He was suggesting almost the exact same thing. There are always those who believe that capitalist society is always on the verge of failure.

[WinkyDink]

49. "Circuit City says 3,400 employees made too much" -- Local headline

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-adfaemar29,0,7505558.story

[Lorien]

53. I was thinking the very same thing this morning. It's destroying US

Corporate greed is destroying our lives, our country and our planet. Without corporate greed we might have all been driving cleaner vehicles, be living in green solar and wind powered homes (off the grid, perhaps?)and global warming wouldn't be the threat that it is today. We wouldn't be pouring lives and money into an illegal and immoral war. We would all have access to healthcare. Our food would be safer, and Monsanto wouldn't be the threat to farmers and world health that it is today (Just watch the DVD "the future of food" from Netflix). The middle class would be growing larger, not shrinking. I've lost count of how many unemployed friends and former associates I know. Ten years ago the job I did just yesterday (a product design for a huge corporation) would have paid me $570. But today the very same project only pays me $125. I'm working three times as hard for 1/4th the pay and they still talk of sending my contracts overseas! What's the answer? How are we going to change this??

[PhilipShore]

68. We have no democratic government....

the politicians have been puppets of Corporate America -- for more then 50 years.

When you see them on the MSM media "whining" about a Constitutional Crisis; what they mean is the -- fear -- they have of the American public figuring out, how the Corporate/Military-Industrial Complex took over America -- and that that democracy is dead.

[Megahurtz]

54. I Really Hope You're Right.

Even if it takes more and more of this. People have to lose a lot before they wake up.

I'm so sick of "Corporate America" anyway I would just as soon see it collapse by the wayside.

[Yavin4]

60. You Are 100% Wrong

My nephew has a college degree, yet the best job he could find pays $7.50 an hour with zero benefits. What can he buy with that salary? Circuit City lowers wages, and suddenly their workers can no longer afford to shop at Home Depot. Home Depot lowers wages, and suddenly their workers can no longer afford to shop at Circuit City. It's a vicious cycle that's spreading throughout the country.

Anyone can buy anything they want on credit.

[BeHereNow]

63. Ah yes..."I owe my soul to the company store..."

You load sixteen tons and what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt...

Part of the plan to return to serfdom.
Unliving wages and all the credit cards you can carry
in your pocket.

Now bow to the masters.

BHN

[Elwood P Dowd]

64. Watch it here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmTgnpzPS64

[BeHereNow]

76. Hell yes! Thanks for posting that! I have the 78 of him singing it, the vid is even BETTER!

I got completely lost on Youtube just now after watching the Tubb video.
SO many good ones for the 60's on there.
Webb Pierce...love his voice.
I'm so glad people are preserving some of the
best performers in our history.
Found some old Bill Monroe footage that was
incredible too.
Thanks Elwood!
BHN

[PassingFair]

66. At ONLY 24% Interest!

Such a bargain!

[supernova]

69. Don't know about that

But I do think they are in the process of removing themselves completely from this country. If they no longer have jobs or customers in this country, there will no longer be any incentive for them to stay here period, even for the nominal purpose of having their address here to be traded on the NASDAQ or NYSE.

Our economy is in the process of shrinking, not because of bad economic times, but willfully and purposefully.

[blues90]

73. You are right , it's something I've bitched about for many years

People seem to think a global economy is a grand idea . For some things perhaps but not something we depend on for everything and not when we are forced to compete with low labor wages .

Perhaps the huge US corps can get buy without the US consumer , at least this is the impression I get .

Some here brought up older US made products such as stereos and such , well I had one old tube stereo that lasted from 1965 until 2000 until it fell off a high shelf . Today EVERYTHING is toss out JUNK . This includes cars and trucks , who is going to have a 1989 taurus and restore that pile of shit and why would they even consider it .

I suppose they decided since old products built with pride lasted too long and they needed to boost sales using junk , in the long run better products created better jobs and even if the cost was high today they life of use would out weigh the cost , people would still need to buy these products and we would have still pride in US jobs and we would still have jobs .

No matter what anyone tells me this global economy is a horrid idea and it is the down fall of the US worker and their jobs . We have the resource to still do without the rest of the worlds cheap products and the skills to build them but this is now gone forever .

[autorank]

74. Excellent point. Here's the other self destruct button they've hit.

Many American companies are becoming outright ANTI CUSTOMER.

We've gone through waves of this is the past but it's getting really bad. Procedures to buy anything
on the internet all fit the needs of the seller, not the consumer (get a username and password to buy); information about products is bad; outright lies are common (like continuing to charge a lease for an item whose lease has run out); lousy return policies; lousy service when you go into the stores.

It's as thought they've forgotten that people usually don't need the crap that they buy.

I guess we're just being condition to a new role - instead of citizens we are CU's - consumption units.

They forgot the other half, which this post points out so well, we have to have money to put up with the
bull shit they hand out as we buy their lousy products.

[Morgana LaFey]

77. You're right, and yet it doesn't seem to erode their business

does it?

I'm especially miffed about those endless loop phone menus. "Increased productivity" is now just another way of saying, "We found yet more ways to have fewer human beings working for us."

[autorank]

103. It doesn't erode it immediately. That's the problem...for them.

Very good point!

They do this anti customer stuff and they don't see an immediate decline in biz. They pat themselves on the back and say, "Oh those 'sheeple,' they just love the garbage we feed them.'

In the mean time, all sorts of cool people notice this and think, "Hmmm...I can do a better job."

When those folks get in a position to by pass or compete, that's when the pain starts for the anti customer crowd. But they never connect the dots..."uh, lets see, we treated people like crap then a couple of years later, they turn on us. Maybe we shouldn't do that."

What I do is simply not buy when I run into the loops you mentioned or the "please register an account." It's now bye bye. Then I bookmark the places where I can buy conveniently, and they get the biz.

Hope some smart entrepreneur writes a book on this. That would spur even more competition.

Cheers! And make them earn you business.

[Initech]

75. We're quickly heading toward a second depression, and it aint pretty.

OK, I'm not an economics major by any stretch of the imagination, but I think that's the case. All the signs are there - the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, the middle class are getting screwed over in favor of people who will work for shit change. It's getting to be a problem and I think we are spiraling downward and it will be too late before the problem will be corrected.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. That's why I'm so disgusted with the "socially acceptable" presidential

candidates, like Hillary and Obama.

They act as if none of this happening---and it isn't happening TO THEM.

[Initech]

89. That's the truth.

And that's why I would hate to see either of them get the nomination. Of course the MSM is shaping it up to be a showdown between those two, and it's sickening. It's almost as if election '08 has already been decided. :grr:

[Bolshy]

87. Capitalism is a self-destructive system

and so this is hardly surprising.

HOWEVER, capitalism itself may not be self-destructing at this point, it may take time, but what is clear is that it is on the precipice.

[truedelphi]

99. James McMurty wrote a great song called "we can't make it here any more"

www.jamesmcmurtry.com/we_cant_make_it_herelyrics.htm

Couple a places on the Net have it downloadable for free.

pretty much sums up what this discussion is all about: nothing (or very little) is manufactured here any more and we can't make it on the kinda jobs that are left

[undeterred]

107. The company that just terminated me and treated me like crap

will probably go under by the end of the year.

Couple of reasons. They assemble engines, and they have long term contracts that say they have to buy some of the parts from European companies. They've been doing it that way for years, but now that Bush has turned the dollar to crap, they lose money or hardly make money on each engine. So they have to produce the same amount with fewer resources, and its impossible.

Second, the service sucks. The company used to get ex-military people who had worked on engines in the navy. When they left military life they would come and work for a private company but still be involved in servicing the same engines from a distance. Well, now the military isn't training people any more. They just hire private contractors directly. The company can't find good experienced people, so they don't know how to service the huge expensive engines they build. And if somebody calls up and asks for a technical manual for an engine built more than 20 years ago it might take 6 months or a year to find because they're that understaffed.

Third reason has to do with asbestos litigation... I know the insurance companies have done their best to limit their liability, but that doesn't mean individual companies can't still be sued.

The company will probably close. Bush has certainly helped bring down the dollar and dumb down the military.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

110. Don't you know we are undereducated?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=542177&mesg_id=542177

We have been screwed up the wazoo for a long time...

[Wcross]

116. Why should the CEO give up his millions?

What incentive does he/she have to forfeit potential income to compensate underlings? Workers are plentiful and none of the jobs go unfilled. Employees are an expense item on the balance sheet, nothing more.
As long as there are bodies to fill the jobs things will remain the same. I guarantee if I drop dead on the factory floor tomorrow they will have another body in my place by the end of the day.
I don't see things getting any better for the working man/woman. Just think about the THOUSANDS of above average wage jobs Michigan has lost in the past few years. Is it any wonder Michigan tops the list of foreclosure rates?
It doesn't effect me in my industry? Think again. I agree with Ronald Reagan and his "trickle down" theory. The problem is the theory forgot about "greed".

[Pushed To The Left]

121. Cheap Labor Conservatism at work!

http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/55

Keep the price of labor as cheap as possible and the workforce as desperate as possible. It looks like Circuit City and others are doing their part to advance cheap labor conservatism.

[mdmc]

126. I disagree

Corporations are destroying our quality of life. They are doing just fine.