Maybe Michigan needs to stop its dependency on the auto industry. Is there anything left to lose?

[eeyore]

Sounds harsh, right? Well, it may be painful, but it likely is prudent. Its probably time to start focusing energies elsewhere, working on developing other options for the workforce.

When I moved to Oregon in the mid-80s the state was a mess. The protection of wild salmon and the spotted owl had severely limited fishing and logging, two of the primary rural industries in the state. Thousands were without jobs as a result, and it was painful to go through. An entire generation of people was pissed off, unemployed, prone to substance abuse and lacking in any future direction. They had grown up assuming they would continue the family trade of logging or fishing, and that future was without warning gone. Just plain gone.

What has happened in the past 20 years has been nothing short of amazing. A generation later, the offspring of those hit hardest have shifted gears. Oregon is a major leader in the sustainability movement, and that is a direct result of people in the hardest hit communities having to figure out how to survive in a new economic climate. Some, like Joseph, have become artist communities. Others, like Astoria, have learned to trade on their history and have become havens for tourists and retirees. And most have figured out how to work with what they've got, and more importantly, how to maximize and and preserve the resources they have.

Logging can still happen, but it's not wise to just cut down the whole forest, replant, then wait 20 years for regrowth before you can harvest again. Fishing can still happen, but we need to figure out the best way to keep the wild salmon runs healthy, strong and reliably plentiful.

It will be rough for a generation, no doubt. But wouldn't it be great to have a generation of kids grow up in Michigan who have a future that doesn't rely upon the corporate robbers of the auto industry?

Perhaps it's the workers who need to take the first step in breaking the cycle of dependency on a single industry that is so clearly unhealthy.

How long will we watch the same movie before someone changes the damn channel?

[Romulox]

1. Why is all this rightwing crap tolerated here? nt

[eeyore]

2. Did you read my post at all?

It's actually quite liberal. Power to the people and all that.

Read the damn post.

[Romulox]

3. Yep. Rightwing apologia, recycled from the NAFTA debate. nt

[MadBadger]

5. SO what do you think should happen? Mods lock the post? Ban the member?

[Romulox]

8. I think I did what I thought should happen: called him on his RW bs.

Sorry that hurt your feelings (I get the distinct impression you and the OP are fellow travelers.)

[KamaAina]

65. Wasn't NAFTA supposed to be the big savior for Michigan?

since it's right next to Canada, our largest trading partner (you only think it's China if you shop at Sprawl-Mart)?

Well, there goes that brilliant plan...

[Romulox]

68. Is that a joke? We opposed it tooth and nail. nt

[KamaAina]

77. It was an unfunny joke on the part of the NAFTA partisans

about as funny as a rubber crutch.

[anigbrowl]

72. So economic diversity is right wing? Interesting.

Well, guess we'd never try and make money from anything other than autos in Michigan then. It's immoral, or something.

[Kalyke]

67. It's liberal to restrict American manufacturing?

Since when.

I don't want to buy a foreign car - they suck.

[anigbrowl]

73. Restrict it how?

Love your xenophobia, by the way. So thoughtfully argued, so closely reasoned.

[maxsolomon]

6. when you go all the way to the right of the clock

you wind up in the same place as the left. libertarians & social libertarians aren't that far apart.

throwing good money after bad has its limits - eventually it's not worth it to keep a junker running, and you sell it for scrap.

[Oregone]

9. What the hell is a "social libertarian"?

Are those the ones that don't chase you off their property with shotguns?

[Romulox]

14. A rightwinger who was forced out of the Puke party by fundies. nt

[maxsolomon]

19. noam chomsky

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

10 seconds on a search engine

[Oregone]

31. Yeah, my neighbor down the street would love live in that society

After he chases you off his property with a shotgun. Libertarians are just dumb assholes that want to be left alone and not pay taxes. They are a far cry from Noam Chomsky, being that most can't think their way out of a paper box. Yeah, the overall philosophy might have similarities, but maybe most people who call themselves "libertarian" don't do much with philosophy besides wipe their ass.

[Romulox]

70. I think the order you put those words in has an impact on the meaning... nt

[Romulox]

12. It's hard to take a "libertarian" argument seriously when it does not mention the TRILLIONS

we have shoveled to Wall Street. :hi:

[maxsolomon]

22. "pounding sand down a rat hole"

is how kunstler put it in his "clusterfuck nation" yesterday.

http://kunstler.com/

[Romulox]

27. I wonder if eeyore feels that the trillions to Wall Street are "sustainable"?

[eeyore]

35. Wall Street is fucked.

I'm talking about people, for the sake of survival, taking matters into their own hands. For the sake of future generations in an area that has been dependent on one industry for nearly a decade.

Call me right wing all you want. I'm not going to attempt to prove my cred to you.

I'm simply thinking in terms of the very human cost of continuing down a path that has been rocky for decades.

When do you look for another path?

[Romulox]

38. If $3 trillion of taxpayer $$$ (no strings attached) is "fucked", I'm reaching for the KY. nt

[eeyore]

44. Fucked as in beyond disgusting.

We're on the same page with Wall Street.

I'm not talking about letting GM fail, I'm talking about diversifying the economy to lessen the future impact of an industry's failure to be financially sound.

How hard is it to understand that diversity is a good thing?

I don't want GM to fail, I want Michigan to figure out other ways to survive.

[blue_onyx]

46. We have been diversifying

See my post (#33).

[Occam Bandage]

11. Yes, "we should try reforming the manufacturing economy towards sustainability"

is so goddamn right-wing. I'm sick of hearing Rush Limbaugh spewing all his garbage about favoring long-term sustainable growth and resource preservation over immediate profits.

[Romulox]

17. It's an empty platitude most frequently deployed by advocates of globalization.

[Occam Bandage]

21. No, it isn't. "Sustainability" is usually an anti-globalization, pro-environmentalist buzzword.

The OP is more pie-in-the-sky left-wing than anything else. "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we could all be like Oregon and not have to worry about manufacturing and all be artists instead?"

[Romulox]

25. The OP uses the language of the Left to justify the economic program of the Right.

[Occam Bandage]

29. I don't think it's that clear.

The OP is suggesting economic diversification, intelligent local use of resources, and a shift towards service-based economy and away from an industrial economy.

The latter is a common trait among globalists. All are common traits among far-left economists. I think to claim that leftist speech+leftist proposal+leftist proposal+ambiguous proposal = right-wing bullshit is to tilt at windmills.

[Romulox]

32. The OP is suggesting free market fundamentalism as the answer to Detroit's problem

The fact that he doesn't even touch upon the trillions to Wall Street (even by way of contrast) is a big tip off.

[Occam Bandage]

36. Where are you getting free markets? He's referencing times when

the markets were forbidden by the government from engaging in unrestricted activity (logging and fishing), and as a result Oregon had to shift its economy to comply with strict governmental restrictions on industry. How on Earth is that "free-market fundamentalism?"

[Romulox]

37. He's talking about letting GM fail, dullard. nt

[Occam Bandage]

40. From a preposterously left-wing perspective.

Both Communists and neo-Fascists would like to see the American system of government fall, but it's inaccurate to claim that a Communist calling for the death of the American system is spreading "Fascist bullshit."

[Romulox]

43. The OP uses the language of the Left to justify the economic program of the Right.

[anigbrowl]

74. We heard you first time. Still bullshit.

You're a benighted and ignorant person, who launches ideological attacks at other posters when your mistakes are pointed out. All the OP suggested was that Michigan might derive economic benefit from having something else going on besides (not instead of) car manufacturing. You haven't even responded to the OP's argument, just struck poses.

[anigbrowl]

75. Sez you. Others don't see it that way.

You really want a lesson in manners, Romulux.

[Oregone]

4. Oregon has one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation right now

If diversifying means perpetually building housing for migrating Californians, yes, Oregon got the job done. Hows that construction working out for them now? The logging towns are *still* devastated to this very day, and now the larger towns (that used to be mill towns) will fall victim to "diversifying" into unsustainable business sectors. Oregon will suffer from thinking that coffee stands, tourism, and brand new homes will forever drive their economy. Oregon is a shitty example, despite the cited "artist" and "tourism" communities.

[maxsolomon]

13. add in casinos to the bad economic strategies of the west

who loses at casinos? the lower & middle classes.

[Oregone]

24. Ug, dont remind me. Yeah, that casino in Coos Bay sure turned that town into San Francisco overnight

No, not really.

[eeyore]

26. Were you here in the mid 80s?

I remember quite well what a shambles the state was in. I think it's a hell of a lot better now.

A large part of the high unemployment rate here has to do with the massive influx of people who have come here with no jobs in a shitty economy. I recently put out an ad for a part time prep cook and got 180 resumes in 24 hours. Most of those people had no Oregon job experience to speak of.

I've travelled this state for more than 20 years. Some cities have benefited quite well from shifting and diversifying their industries. Ever spent any time looking at the work of Sustainable Northwest or The Food Alliance? What about Salmon Safe certification? What about collectives like Oregon Country Beef? Pretty amazing transformation in my opinion.

Farmers, ranchers, fishers and loggers are all coming to terms with the new economic circumstances, and the smart ones are profiting quite well.

[Oregone]

45. Yes I was

(Im not there now though)

You may think it is better now. Do a check in another year. Oregon just experienced a decade of unsustainable growth, fueled by out-of-state immigrants. Oregon replaced its ailing job sectors in towns along I-5, yes, but with unsustainable industries. Where is the blue collar man in Oregon going to be working in another year? As for the communities off the beaten trek, poverty is as rampant there as ever.

Maybe I a nostalgic. I loved Oregon in the mid-80s. :) I guess life was simpler then. You looked at a patch of land, and you knew it was a patch of land. Now you look at it, littered with homes, and you wonder how many of those people will be foreclosed on in another year. You don't know what is coming or going anymore.

[eeyore]

52. I can't deny that Oregon is in a rough economic time.

Most people I know are underemployed, and the job market plain sucks. If you have a job, hang on to it unless you have another one lined up.

It is pretty amazing, though, watching what's happening with food these days. Buying from local sources is pretty much expected these days in the restaurant world. I get daily deliveries from farmers who are more than willing to grow whatever I want. We've all figured out how to support each other, and I really think that's what it takes to survive.

Why the hell would I buy inferior food from a national supplier when there is a farmer willing to deliver me whatever I need? I get to work directly with the grower, and they get to sell to someone who will promote their farm on daily menus. They get recognized, we get better products. It's amazing!

I've watched auto painters figure out that custom painting bicycles can be quite rewarding. All sorts of things are possible, one just has to have an open mind.

I agree that the growth here is unsustainable. I know people who are literally just waiting for their homes to be foreclosed. They can't pay the mortgage and don't have much choice, though they take on huge payments willingly.

I loved the simple Oregon, too. I am quite excited about some things that are happening right now, though.

[Oregone]

56. A lot of these creative industries are only possible, because there is so much...

free capital due to the booming economy. But Ive read reports citing Oregon is on the cusp of 14% unemployment. In another year, it could be 20% if this all continues. People then won't have the ability to have their bicycles painted, or to afford hand crafted pottery and organic cotton clothing. Yes, when everyone is rolling in the dough, its a breeze to develop tourism, arts, organic farming, because people aren't worried about the pennies. When people become price sensitive, things won't be so wonderful. When items at the farmer's market becomes priced 500% what the mass produced things in stores cost, people won't continue shopping there.

[ogneopasno]

7. Advocating a huge shift from a strong manufacturing economy to a service economy is disingenuous.

You are glossing over the costs such a shift requires, and cherry-picking information.

Oregon made a big push to pick up on the tech boom as a way to get away from logging and fishing, and got burned in the 1990s during the tech bust. According to the state itself, growth in Oregon from 2004-07 was fueled by construction and service growth, which is also now collapsing again.

"Artist communities" and "havens for tourists" are not viable alternatives for manufacturing.

[HughBeaumont]

10. So the solution is to rely on the corporate robbers of the Service industry?

Or the biotech industry? Or hospitalization? Finances?

The problem is not with the workers. The problem is with the GIGO top of the food chain operating in the best interests of the shareholders and themselves, no matter what the industry and no matter WHAT the cost to everything and anyone else.

[eeyore]

28. How about diversifying?

I was talking about halting reliance on a single industry. That's my entire point.

[anigbrowl]

76. Silly eeyore. If we have multiple gods, how will we know which ones to worship?

Much better to be wholly invested in one a single idea, just as sensible people put all their eggs in the same basket while counting their chickens. Tra la la!

[sufrommich]

15. What will these future generations be driving? nt

[eeyore]

30. Who knows?

Maybe nothing at all. But right now it seems that the public isn't too interested in buying what's being made. Time to diversify the economy for survival's sake.

[sufrommich]

34. "Maybe nothing at all"

You can't be serious.

[eeyore]

41. Honesty, I have no idea.

I'm simply talking about diversifying the economy in the face of a declining industry. Seems pretty pragmatic to me.

Just because a family has been doing something for generations doesn't mean that's the most fruitful future for their children.

Hell, we could all be wearing jet packs in the future. Or taking the damn train. We could simply run out of oil completely and need to return to riding horses.

I can't really see the future, but the present situation doesn't look so hot to me.

[maxsolomon]

61. there was a time before cars.

humans survived.

[angstlessk]

16. this is more about saving the manufacturing base than the auto industry per se...

Michigan and Detroit are working very hard to attract movie making to the area and have been very sucessful in that endeavor...what else it is doing on a large scale I am not aware of yet, but if we loose a significant part of our manufacturing base we could never gear up im case of an emergency as in WW2..we would have nothing to gear up..a washing machine manufacurer could not gear up to build tanks or jeeps. (if we even manufacture washing machines here anymore?)

[amandabeech]

64. The washing machine maker took off for China.

ST. Joe is dead. Kapoot.

[bluestateguy]

18. They're trying

It's not exactly a 9 to 5 job. Michigan also has agriculture, health sciences (esp. in Grand Rapids), Kellogg's is in Battle Creek, etc.

It's not going to happen overnight, nor should we expect it to. Michigan is actaully less dependent on the auto industry as it was 20 years ago.

[zipplewrath]

58. It's not a foregone conclusion

The rust belt has been in decline for decades. Steel probably lead the way. But manufacturing has been getting hammered from many directions for decades. Once you move away from heavy manufacturing, there isn't much left for Michigan (my home state by the by). Yes, they can try to compete in all of the areas that are suppose to be the new up and coming areas. Biotech is one and they have some minor infrastructure there, although some of that is moving out of state (over seas in some cases) because "everyone" is trying to land that business. The whole "tech bubble" kinda past them by. Now they are trying to get on the "green tech" bandwagon. I believe they have some outfit making small, almost portable, wind turbines.

But the God honest truth is that there isn't much reason for Michigan to be there so to speak. The auto industry started there for alot of different reasons, but most of those are long gone. But heavy manufacturing is better located near a coast with access to major ports. Yes, there is the Great Lakes chain but winter traffic is hampered along there. Better to be located near southern ports in San Diego, Texas, Florida, the Carolina's etc.

I suspect if there is something on the horizon, it is education. Believe it or not, there is a large diversity of post secondary schools in Michigan. Everything from trade schools to small liberal arts and of course the large Universities including "MIT" (The old Michigan school of mines). These schools, along with the research they can generate, can be a source of steady employment, as well as a draw for various small manufacturers and transient industries looking for access to a highly educated population, and a solid social environment for raising their children. It could be a "second tier" alternative to the whole "east coast ivy league school" tradition that we have now. More affordable yet solid secondary education. There is even an "ivy league" association of some sort in Michigan and Indiana of small liberal arts schools with cooperation in study and degree. Throw in a few "artist communities" and some fall/summer tourism and you've got a midwest version of New Hampshire or Vermont. It will never be the power house that the auto industry brought, but it could be vastly more stable and appropriate to its climate and location.

[Hubert Flottz]

20. Well they do have a great football program at big blue.

[MadBadger]

23. Not right now they dont

[Hubert Flottz]

60. They just need a better coach...

[blue_onyx]

33. I'm glad you've decided for us

that we just need to go through a little more pain (like 8 years isn't enough).

Michigan has a lot more than just the auto industry. Tourism is our second biggest industry. Health care is a growing industry, as is the film industry. The future auto industry has a lot of potential for economic growth, particular in regards to lithium-ion batteries. Michigan will get the Volt battery plant (and the 14,000 jobs) and a A123 Systems battery plant. We may need to diversify more but there's no reason to turn away from the auto industry. Michigan has also been focused on other green energy, like United Solar Ovonics, Hemlock Semiconductor, and Mascoma.

BTW, seems to me Oregon isn't far behind Michigan in terms of unemployment.

[eeyore]

47. I'm not being critical, just asking an honest question

You're right. I have no idea what's best for your state, just like you have no idea what is behind the Oregon unemployment rate. Here it has a lot to do with people moving here without jobs.

I wish nothing but the best for your state, and that's why I asked the question.

[blue_onyx]

51. Well, you were being critical

You even acknowledged in your original statement that you sounded harsh. You asked, is there anything left to lose. Yes, there's a lot left to lose. That statement makes it sound like you think Michigan isn't worth saving. The way in which the auto industry, and thereby Michigan, has been treated makes me and other Michiganders quite defensive. When 70% of the country says to hell with our state's main industry, an industry's whose failure would devastate our state, one can't help but get angry.

The point of my post was to simply let you know there is a whole lot more to Michigan than the auto industry. We have been too dependent on the auto industry but thanks to our current governor, we're changing that.

[eeyore]

57. Perhaps I wasn't clear...

What I was trying to ask was if it's really worth it to keep fighting for the auto industry jobs? Can they really be saved in the long-term, or is it time to start thinking about diversifying?

I'm sorry that my post made you angry, but from an outsider's point of view it's pretty hard to understand. I'm 40 years old, and as far as I can remember back your state has been in crisis because of the same industry. It's kind of like the Israel - Palestine conflict. I'm not even sure what it's all about anymore, but it keeps repeating the same cycle over and over.

I'm glad there is more to Michigan that the auto industry. My niece is at MSU and loves it. My brother's family moved to Bloomfield for a job with Kellogg, and they were afraid to buy a home because the market was so bad. They only lasted about a year.

I'm really not trash talking your state. I'd love to visit one day, and I want nothing but the best for Michiganders.

[amandabeech]

66. When GM and Chrysler go under,

there will be at least 2 million looking for new jobs. At least.

[MadHound]

39. First of all, the auto industry doesn't just involve Michigan,

It involves all fifty states, granted some more than others, but nonetheless by the time you rack up parts suppliers, parts dealers, sub-contractors, transportation, raw materials, dealers, manufacturing, etc. etc., all fifty states will take a hard blow if the domestic auto industry goes under.

Secondly, the transition away from a manufacturing base to a service oriented economic base is a large part of the economic problems that we're currently in. Manufacturing pays far better than most service sector jobs, not to mention that it is a positive for our overall economy. A healthy economy actually makes things, instead of just selling them to you. For a better explanation on this, I suggest that you read Kevin Phillip's "American Theocracy." In it he posits, correctly, that a service economy, specifically a service economy dominated by the financial industry(sound familiar), is one of the leading indicators, and causes of an empire to go into decline.

We need a manufacturing base in this country, one much larger than what we've got now. The last thing we need to do is to throw what little we have overboard.

[sufrommich]

42. What MadHound said.

:thumbsup:

[eeyore]

48. A manufacturing base is a fantastic thing...

The only way a manufacturing base can survive is by making things that people want at prices they are willing to pay.

I don't know the answer, but I do know that diversity in the workforce is a good thing.

[Oregone]

49. Oregon's manufacturing base consists of....

Building coffee stands, that sell $4 lattes to tourists, and squeezing as many high priced homes as possible in small parcels in Eagle Point and Central Point (over profitable farm and orchard land).

Diversifying into sectors that are fragile is no way to sustain long term, steady, controlled growth.

[eeyore]

54. You need to come to Portland

Manufacturing has gone micro. People are making and selling all sorts of crazy stuff, and people are more than happy to buy them. It's just a small, local economy that benefits those who are willing to be creative.

[Oregone]

59. Ive been to Portland, Ive also been to...

Oakridge, Alsea, Yoncalla, Creswell, Toledo, Siletz, Scio, Yamhill, Reedsport, Coos Bay, Port Orford, Butte Falls, Prospect, Marcola, Tilamook etc...

Not a lot has changed in these places in 20 years. Some of those places have unemployment higher than Detroit. Alsea has the most people, per capita, in Iraq (or did at one time). Oakridge has a ton of kids on free lunch programs, below the poverty line. Yamhill has massive rates of menengitis from the poverty. And Siletz...

What happens when them folk from "Sometimes a Great Notion" get stuck in decades of stagflation?

But all you do is point at places like Portland (or Eugene, Ashland/Medford) and say, lookie at the neat things we are doing here! Yes, and the unsustainable growth in these towns made that all possible. Soon, when that growth dries up, the unsustainable sectors will suffer, and the creative industries will take a large hit (and Astoria may be looking more like Waldport).

Oregon did not diversify properly into manufacturing. When logging shutdown, in all those towns above, the people just got fucked and couldn't adapt. And when the mills shut down along I-5 (which offered as much as $15 bucks an hour entry level in the mid 90s), the blue-collar worker there adapted by being absorbed into construction and service. Oregon still doesn't make anything. In fact, they make less now. All those damn homes went right on top of forests, fields, farms and orchards.

[MadHound]

53. Which is why we need to revive ours

Most of our manufacturing base has been shipped overseas. Hell, we had a great manufacturing revival with the tech boom, but we shipped that all off to Asia.

I'm hoping that Obama comes through with his promise of green manufacturing, and better yet, he keeps it in America this time.

[tech3149]

50. It might not be to the focus of your post but you just can't have

sustainable communities or economies without diversification and integration. I think you made a good point. Sorry the "flat earthers" felt compelled to jump up your butt. Having grown up in the "rust belt", I know the effects of putting all your financial eggs in one basket. When things go bad they go really bad and there aren't any immediate options.

An anecdotal observation of this was my ex's companies. They were so heavily invested in taking care of one retailer, when things went bad for that one customer, two companies and thousands of people got the dirty end of the stick.

[eeyore]

55. You exactly got my point.

Thanks. I understand the harsh reactions, though. That kind of change can be painful to even think about. It's kind of sad that we've gotten beyond the multi-generation family occupations.

[Fire1]

62. eeyore, several posters have given you testimony to the

diversification happening here in Michigan, even over the last twenty years. If you are genuinely 'concerned' all you have to do is click on 'mich.gov.' You will be pleasantly surprised to see a definite transition to 'green jobs.' Oakland County is known for it's progressive 'Automation Alley' projects for the future. Michigan isn't as 'bad off' as the MSM would have you believe.

[leftofthedial]

63. yeah. The rest of the country is cutting the auto makers loose.

Michigan might as well too.

[polichick]

69. True for Michigan and many other areas of the country - time to move on...

...to new industries. We've been stuck in neutral for decades.

[shugah]

71. maybe you need to get a clue

rough for a generation? it's already been fucking "rough for a generation."

painful? you have no idea. really, as your post so clearly indicates: YOU HAVE NO IDEA

i'll tell you the one advantage we have here in the state of michigan - we are already well entrenched in the economic miasma the rest of you are about to start feeling. we've been growing our own veggies for years. yeah, they have fucking artist communities burgeoning in detroit too.

in michigan, there are no jobs, there is no bailout, there is no money, there is no help - and we have the rest of the fucking country telling us "too bad, so sad, it's all your fault anyway. you and your unions." ack! SCREAM! FUCK ALL YOU PEOPLE!

before you make your (not at all) well thought out pseudo-philosophical (bullshit) pronouncements, please take the time to understand the history and current economic crisis in this state. you suggest that the "workers" need to take control of their destiny? well fucking duh! they did! generations ago - and we call it "THE UNION." and unions have drawn the ire of TBTB every single day since then. and all the time and money that has been spent weakening and demonizing unions has come to fruition. but the fate of the unions is the fate of the american worker whether they like unions or not.

40 hour work week? thank you Union!
Health insurance? thank you Union!
Paid vacation? thank you Union!
Overtime pay? thank you Union!
Safe working conditions? thank you Union!
Middle Class? thank you Union!

i could go on thanking the unions, but i have to get up at an ungodly hour to get to my temp job that has no benefits and if i clock in 3 minutes late, i will not be paid for my first quarter hour work.

so thank you for your useless advice to the state of Michigan.

[TBF]

78. "It'll be rough for a generation" .... are you planning to go there to help the

millions of people who will be out of work, and create your new dream society? I know, you can take tents, they seem to be all the rage these days.