I don't want a fucking pony.

[Bjorn Against]

I asked for an end to the killing in Iraq and Afghanistan. I asked for a restoration of our Constitution and accountability brought to all the criminals who violated our rights. I asked for equal rights for all Americans. I asked for an economic system that does not reward bankers and Wall Street executives with billions of dollars in bailout money while those same bankers continue to foreclose the homes of the ordinary Americans who will paying the bill for that corporate bailout.

There is one thing that I did not ask for however, I did not ask for a pony. Nobody asked for a fucking pony, but to some asking for an end to the death and destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan is the equivalent of whining about how much we all want ponies.

Go tell the mother whose child was slaughtered in the war that her calls for peace are the equivalent of a child begging for a pony. Go tell the women who was recently made homeless because her house was foreclosed by one of the banks that took our bailout money that she is whining about her situation. Go tell the person who is worried that they may have cancer but does not have health insurance that they are asking for too much when they call for universal health care that values people over the insurance industry.

You can accuse us of whining, you can accuse us of “poutrage”, and you can compare calls to end the war as the equivalent of a child stomping their feet on the ground and demanding a pony all you want, but the truth is that we were fighting for peace and social justice long before Obama was in office and we are not going to end that battle just because some people who claim to be on our side mock us for not ending the battle.

The truth is that we supported Obama during the election, we even campaigned for him. We will continue to support him when does right, but we will not back down when we think he is wrong. The world does not revolve around any single person, and we are not going to pretend that it is more important to refrain from criticizing a politician than it is to stand up for the values that are important to us.

I am an Obama supporter in general, but that does not mean that I need to agree with him on every single issue nor does it mean that a small group of his supporters can decide for me which issues are appropriate for me to criticize him on and which issues should stay off limits.

We must always speak out when we believe the people in power are wrong, it doesn't matter if the people in power are Republicans or Democrats all politicians need to be held accountable. Politics is not a game, people's lives can improved by politics and people's lives can be destroyed by politics. The issues that are facing this nation are serious, and the only way we are going to solve them is if the people demand that they are solved. Our target is not Obama, our target is a right-wing agenda that has been in place long before Obama took office, and if we want Obama to bring about real change by stopping that agenda in its tracks then we need to put pressure on him to do so. Dissent is patriotic, and if we want real change then we must continue to fight for a better world no matter who is in power.

[bagrman]

1. I want the brain dead of this country to wake the hell up.

We're about to get this whole charade stuffed in our collective asses.

[Rhiannon12866]

109. I want the brain dead of NY District 20 to wake the hell up.

We're currently winning today's special election to fill Senator Gillibrand's now vacant congressional seat with a 59 vote lead... :scared:

[earth mom]

2. Awesome post!

:applause:

[bos1]

261. The OP needs to think about Havel's words on hope and optimism.

Vaclav Havel, a man who knows a little bit about expectations from government, once made a statement contrasting hope versus optimism. Optimism, he said, was doing the right thing and thinking it would make a difference. Hope is doing the right thing even though you think it probably won't.

I think optimists tend to get disappointed and bitter. The hopeful see what Obama is doing, are not at all disappointed with the amazing changes he has made, while we still push for more.

[chill_wind]

3. Can't think of a thing to add to that general sentiment. K & R.

eom

[bos1]

158. I CAN. don't take it personally but...

reposting and adding from below so maybe someone might see it:

The Afghanistan conflict is one the world knows must be dealt with, which is why the UN is along for the ride.
Iraq is a complicated mess that Obama is doing his politically-possible best to deal with.
Same with the economy and going after the complicated mess that has become of US free market unregulated capitalism.

In terms of "accountability brought to all the criminals who violated our rights", listen: Ford pardoned Nixon and Nixon went free. Johnson got away with Gulf of Tomkin (the WMD of Vietman). Reagan got a pass for Iran-Contra. Roosevelt didn't prosecute the CEOs that were planning a coup against him when Smedley Butler told him about the plot. So IF Obama doesn't go after Bush-Cheney etc (give it time! ) remember that prosecution has historically been a very dicey thing.

In other words, you have to understand the history of what is politically possible, in a realistic sense. Or else, yes, you will be reminiscent of a child asking Santa for a pony.

[chill_wind]

169. You can try to insist - and I can and obviously disagree.

I won't recycle all the rebuttals which I agree with along with your repasted argument. I'm sure people can see and read them as well.

[sabrina 1]

177. And I think it's time we learned from

this egregious record of not prosecuting criminals at high levels of government that it's time to finally draw a line in the sand and send a clear warning that the free ride is over.

Rather than viewing this history as an example of what Obama ought to do, I view it as an example of just how much the change he promised is long overdue as this is what has been wrong with this country for so long and what led us to where we are today.

Had all those criminal been prosecuted, convicted and forbidden from ever again being allowed anywhere near positions of power in this government, we could honestlycall this country 'a country of laws, not men'. The history you just outline, makes a mockery of that claim, and of any oaths of office taken by our elected officials.

What you just posted is the very best argument for why US policy of over-looking massive criminal and even treasonous behavior at the highest levels of government, urgently needs to end, today.

I find it shocking that it has gone on for so long, and am astounded that such clear failure to administer justice equally as we claim to do, is used as an argument for the continuance of such failed policies which are more suited to a third-world dictatorship than a country claiming to be a shining example of Democracy.

Isn't outrage a more appropriate reaction to what you just posted, than weak acceptance that we cannot do anything to stop corruption and outright treason in this government? Is that what we voted for? More of the same?

I don't think so.

[lsewpershad]

183. Couldn't Agree more

And it is so frustrating because this will continue if something is not done NOW.

[The Wielding Truth]

219. Now this is a post that applies rational thought. I totally agree.

Obama has shown remarkable capabilities in his approach to all the devastation left in the aftermath of corrupt corporate republican rule.

If he continues to move this titanic away from the already crushing economic-berg he will be a truly great American President. I am amazed at his command of the wheel so far and I support him. He will, it seems, take us trough the pains of creeping menace of threat in Afghanistan and the empty popcorn bag of Iraq. If we prompt and support his lead he will deliver.

[bos1]

260. thx

just want to say that, often I wonder (as many do, I'm sure) if there is any point posting and whether I am way off base. I honestly do try to be basically rational, as you noted, while being hopeful to.

[livefreest]

243. i think what is realistically possible is what the politicians have

been bullying the people to believe is possible. Did anyone believe that Americans would vote in 2008 for a "liberal" after what Bush campaign team did to Kerry in 2004?
So don't try to deter hunger for change. dreamers of what is impossible have always pulled us forward.

[bos1]

259. i agree

I hunger and push for change too. I am a little discouraged by some of my fellow lefties who are so easily disappointed with the amazing change we have been getting and will keep getting, that's all.

[tbyg52]

4. Thank you.

I know all the good stuff he's done so far. It's a lot, and I'm grateful.

But, to take the particular thing that I'm most outraged about, the money spigot to Wall Street is wide open and nobody is explaining to me where it is going. I just get it in dibs and dabs and what I hear I don't like. It it Geithner's JOB to explain it to us so we can understand it, and to justify why it benefits the REGULAR PEOPLE to have it spent that way. (Not that I'm convinced he *could*, mind you.)

Heck, I think every penny flowing out, and what's done with it, should be posted on the internet. I probably wouldn't understand it, but *somebody* would, and then they'd tell the truth.

I know, dream on.....

[Cant trust em]

7. I think that some more transparency on this issue is needed.

They should have a TARP website just like recovery.gov.

[sendero]

40. It's simple..

... banks, investment banks and insurance companies made a bunch of fancy bets based on shoddy analysis. Those bets have gone bad, and huge investments of money are now essentially worthless.

If you or I did that, we'd have to stew in our own juices, but since the bankers have BOUGHT our politicians a simple plan is being executed.

The government (i.e. the taxpayer) will BUY this WORTHLESS TOXIC SHIT for exhorbitant prices so the banks don't have to take a hit.

You and your kids and their kids will pay for these worthless assets via taxes.

And there are ACTUALLY ASSWIPES on this VERY BOARD who think this is a good idea.

[FailureToCommunicate]

139. Your explanation sounds correct to me. Now if only the M$M would do it's job

(what the press' job SHOULD be in a free society) and expose the shadowy oligarchs that run this country.
(And, yes, I know this is off topic of OP)

[Skwmom]

146. It's more than just paying it back over a future time horizon.

We don't have the MONEY or the borrowing power to take on crucial issues AND pour trillions into banks, investment banks and insurance companies. Have you noticed how we can't afford health care reform is being put out there (by Joe Biden, etc.). Why does this all sound so familiar?

After trillions are poured into the financial industry, the talk of sacrifice will begin. Forget, about anything new. Huge cuts in existing programs will be required.

And if anyone thinks that educating the American Public is going to save our economy, I suggest you take a good hard look at smart, educated people from other countries who are willing to work for a heck of a lot less than an American.

[SammyWinstonJack]

152. Those "ASSWIPES" aren't as vocal these days about this bank heist, are they?

Wonder why?

[tbyg52]

228. That's what I think, and no wonder they are smoke-and-mirroring the details.

I am pretty much constantly furious.

[SandWalker1984]

83. The money is mainly going to 5 big banks!

I came across an excellent article today by F. William Engdahl titled "Geithner's Dirty Little Secret."

The secret? 5 banks hold 96% of all US bank derivatives positions in terms of nominal values, and 81% of the total net credit risk exposure in event of default.

The five are, in declining order of importance: JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Citibank, Goldman Sachs and the merged Wells Fargo-Wachovia Bank. Number six is Britain’s HSBC Bank USA.

Engdahl goes on to theorize that these 5 huge banks are basically "blackmailing" Washington because they are so big.

His solution? FDIC takeover of those 5 banks which are basically insolvent anyway, then break them up into much smaller entities. It would save money in the long run AND prevent future blackmail by "banks too big to fail."

Question is, will Obama and Congress have the guts to stand up to these 5 banks run amuck?

All of our futures depend on the answer.

[rhett o rick]

no

[tbyg52]

236. That's exactly what I think and exactly what I want. nt

[stevedeshazer]

5. Recommended. I asked for the same things.

Well said.

[Solomon]

132. No you didn't. And neither did the original poster.

Who did you ask? Those things weren't on the ballot. Hyperbole at it's finest.

[Bjorn Against]

137. I have spoken out many times, both in writing and in the streets.

Democracy is not limited to the ballot box, there are many ways to speak out. I am involved in at least one protest every week, and I have written many letters to politicians and several of these letters have traveled pretty far over the internet as well. You seem to suggest if that if something isn't on the ballot there is no way to speak out for it, this is not only a false suggestion but it is a dangerous suggestion because it suggests that we have no power as citizens to stand up for what we believe in.

[stevedeshazer]

250. Have an excellent day.

:)

[Two Americas]

258. and they never will be

Nothing will ever be on any ballot, either, if we see everything in terms of ballot choices, and cynically harness and tailor everything we think and say and do to party loyalty and electoral success. This idea - expressed here every day now - that making progress for left wing political goals depends upon being silent about those goals, is one of the oddest political ideas ever. It is absurd on its face.

I have spoken in front of groups for years in the neighborhoods where you never see a liberal or suburban activist, and say the same things there that I do here, and have always gotten a good reception. The people, the everyday people, are hurting and are more than ready to see quite a few things "on the ballot" that are being bitterly resisted by many right here. What is the obstacle? Where is the resistance? Where is the barrier to progress? Where do I run into opposition? From the "realistic" and "practical" crowd, the self-proclaimed party loyalists, the "lesser of two evils" people, the "work within the system" people, who drown any hope of progress in an endless litany of "don't get me wrong, I agree with you BUT...." and who mock and ridicule the political Left and who are willing to continually compromise on our principles and ideals for the sake of "winning" in a very shallow partisan sense of winning. There is no way of knowing for sure if they want the country and the party to drift to the right, or merely believe their own rhetoric and think that this is inevitable and inescapable, but at some point we need to look at the practical effect and not the story line about this. We cannot do that - or anything else - under a relentless barrage of demands for simple-minded party loyalty.



...

[LostinVA]

6. k&r -- and Teddy Roosevelt agrees with you

"The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

Theodore Roosevelt
May 7, 1918

[mix]

52. thank you

wonderful timely quote

[Enthusiast]

110. He was right then

and he is right now.

[Bluenorthwest]

121. That TR quote

I typed it so many times during Bush, and had hoped, even assumed, it could be put aside for a time. Thanks for posting it, Lost, thanks so much.
My favorite words in it are 'servile' and 'treasonable'.

[LostinVA]

237. "Servile" stands out to me, too

My Dad is a huge TR admirer, and THAT quote helped turn him away from Bush.

[cobalt1999]

125. One of the best presidents we ever had.

Great quote.

[Liberal Veteran]

8. I can respect that to some extent, but some people have gotten so comfortable being ...

...the seat of opposition, they forgot how to be constructive in prodding change and voicing their dislike of a certain position.

It starts to look like a grudge by some and instead of treating our President as an ally to be swayed in the direction one would prefer, they act like this Bush III or something.

That's where a lot of the push back comes from.

[Bjorn Against]

14. I think what is constructive and what is not is up to us as individuals to decide...

Anyone who has been involved in any sort of real political activism has been accused of not being constructive at one time or another, and while there is certainly a good deal of criticism that is not constructive it is also true that people have tried to claim criticism is "not constructive" to shut down any criticism that they don't like.

[Lyric]

20. This is how I define "constructive criticism" at DU:

Considering the hyper-sensitivity of a very small minority here to any criticism of Obama, it's safe to assume that at least one person alerts on every critical thread. If the mods delete/lock it, then it isn't "constructive criticism." If they don't, then it IS.

Since the "constructive criticism" thing is a site rule, I trust the site moderators and admins to know what THEY consider "constructive" and what they do not. OUR personal definitions don't mean diddly-squat here. I completely ignore the people who throw around the "Ooooo, the site rules say only CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is allowed!!!" because they have absolutely ZERO authority to draw that line.

I love Obama. I didn't always, but within a week of the end of the primaries, I was out there marching with my fellow college Young Dems group with Obama signs and t-shirts, arguing with aggressive McCain supporters, and helping to get people registered to vote. I wore my Obama pins and stickers every single day, and spent countless hours patiently explaining to doubters why they should vote for Obama.

However--I do NOT love everything that he believes, says, and does. I don't agree with his priorities. I also have no intention of being silent about my disagreement. My primary concern is issues--especially issues related to human suffering, poverty, and inequality. If not for people like ME speaking up, then people like Obama and Reid and Pelosi would have no incentive at all to re-think the stances they take, or re-consider their original positions.

It is the Obamas of the world that get things done, but it is the people like US who provide the motivation behind those actions. We are valuable. I don't need anyone else to tell me this or give me affirmation--it is true regardless of what naysayers would claim.

[Bjorn Against]

27. Very well said, I totally agree with you.

I think the mods do pretty well at determining what is constructive criticism and what is not, I don't always agree with them but they do pretty well considering that things are not always clear cut. I have been involved in many protests and marches throughout the past few years so I am constantly being told that I am not being constructive, so while I recognize that there is a good deal of criticism that is not constructive I am very wary of people who tell me what is and is not constructive because quite often they seem to think that speaking out at all on certain issues is not constructive.

I love Obama in many ways, but there are certainly some policy issues I have serious disagreements with him on as well. I realize something though, when I disagree with him it is not just him I am disagreeing with it is the system that I am disagreeing with. Our system of government has been corrupt for many years, the moneyed interests would have never allowed Obama to be elected if he had rocked the boat too much. Money still controls our elections, and the people in power would have used their money to crush Obama in the primaries if he looked like he was too much of a threat to their interests. People need to remember that Obama is not the only person that is in power, and he has a lot of powerful people that are pushing him in certain directions so we need to push back.

[mix]

55. beautifully put n/t

[TBF]

68. Sure, the Obamas of the world do "get things done", but it's not a

bad idea to keep an eye on what he's doing. Is that really so unpatriotic?

[Lyric]

73. Not in the least. In fact, I'd say the opposite.

If anything is "unpatriotic," it is the act of brushing aside the wisdom of our Founding Fathers and putting too much trust in the government. I believe, as a liberal, that government can be an agent of change for the good. However, this does not happen in a vacuum. There needs to be a lot of PUSH, and I'm not talking about elections and slogans and parties. The pushing comes from the patriots who understand that the government (and its leaders) will ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance--therefore, the onus is on We The People to stand in the way of the government when it's trying to take a path that we know to be wrong. We create the resistance that, in turn, creates change. We pile our voices together like boulders in the way, and our government responds by shifting its course.

That's what we do. We are the dam-builders and the river-movers. We do not obstruct--we guide and we contain, because in the end, it is OUR homes, families, and lives that are on the line when the government is allowed to wander as it pleases.

Dissent is not just a patriotic thing--dissent is how we keep a government that doesn't know its own strength from accidentally crushing us underfoot. When you have a mile-high friendly giant wandering around in your neighborhood, it's okay to *like* the giant, but you still wave and yell and make noise so that he sees you before he takes his next step.

[tavalon]

87. Yep, I've seen a lot more of that than true whining here lately

and it makes me damn nervous that people keep telling other people to STFU.

[EFerrari]

34. We can't have people being comfortable speaking up!

Those folks should be kicking threads about Michelle Obama's arms. :)

[Enthusiast]

111. Many of us want encouraging signs

that President Obama wants to undo the bad regulatory changes that allowed greedy actions by investment banks. We are not seeing it. We are desperate for signs that President Obama will do the correct thing.

[Mithreal]

205. Using the Bush3 term is disruptive and counter-productive. nt

Stop using it, please.

[Lyric]

9. Thank you so much.

I fucking LOATHE that expression. It trivializes suffering and makes it kindergarten playground fodder.

Kicking hard and recommending harder.

:kick:

[LostinVA]

11. I sincerely believe "poutrage" shouldn't eb allowed to be used

For the same reason.

[chill_wind]

19. It will all continue to be used

It's just time to stop giving it power to stifle and misdirect.

[Bluenorthwest]

122. It has no power now

In fact, those who use such language rarely have anything to say at all, save for their wee bully slogans. They lack discussion skills. They are only up for drive by snark. Repeated sayings they crib from one another.

[Mithreal]

35. K&R. Me too, for the pony and poutrage. People who use it are disruptors. nt

[Bluebear]

37. YOU SAID IT +1

[chill_wind]

47. For that same reason, I don't employ terms like "Obamabots"

and other derisive Obama wordplays and "change" cliches and expect to make a successful point.

[Political Heretic]

97. I don't like that either.

Just wanted to add...

[Starry Messenger]

10. Thank you.

I was an Obama primary voter and was totally thrilled with the outcome of the election. I knew he was not going to be "perfect" because nobody ever is.

I want to highlight this sentence in your OP:

"Our target is not Obama, our target is a right-wing agenda that has been in place long before Obama took office, and if we want Obama to bring about real change by stopping that agenda in its tracks then we need to put pressure on him to do so."

Bravo! k&r

[Oregone]

12. uh, did I miss the memo? Are we all getting free ponies?

The miniature ones or the big ones?

[Vanje]

13. +++++!

!

[Vanje]

15. Very very well said

"Dissent is patriotic, and if we want real change then we must continue to fight for a better world no matter who is in power."

[Zodiak]

16. Great post, and I echo your sentiments exactly

All of this "poutrage", "pony", "whining" crap is anti-social behavior, I am afraid. As is "this is not change I can believe in", "Obamabot", etc.

We have shared this site for many years, and we have had major disagreements, but lately the tenor of many posts on DU are just downright disrespectful and damaging to our community. The signal to noise ratio has been driven very low, and it has reduced the quality of this site drastically. It is not the mods fault as some suggest (because modding this site when it blows up with divisive crap is too much work for too few people), but it is our collective fault for getting caught up in the argument and not taking a step back and realizing that up until a year or so ago, many of us respected each other more around here.

So if you have posted your 50th post of the day in GD:P, and it is a yet another one-liner devoid of content but full of pithy little DU insider catch-words to infantilize your opponent in an argument, then yes, you are the problem. This site would be so much more of a happy place if you kept your picture of a crying baby to yourself. It helps nothing, and frankly earns you ignores.

[Starry Messenger]

23. I wish I could rec your post too.

:thumbsup:

[Zodiak]

29. Thanks

No-one ever will rec any of my posts, though, because I do not start OPs unless I really have something to say.

[Control-Z]

118. I was about to say the same. n/t

[Runcible Spoon]

24. Absolutely.

In addition to derailing the discourse, those pics just aren't FUNNY. They don't improve with multiple postings, either. I would also add tired sports metaphors, especially those related to baseball and racing, to the list of annoying, distracting, infantile, pointless, disruptive, embarrassing.

[Bjorn Against]

30. Great post, that is how I feel as well.

We had some great discussions here over the years, and before the primaries got started this was the best discussion forum on the internet. Once the primaries got going things went downhill fast, but once the primaries ended things seemed to be pretty good for a while once again. In the post election season however things have gotten as bad as they were during the primaries, instead of seeing well thought out OPs I see all kinds of single sentence posts that just launch a personal attack of some sort without using any facts or real argument to back their position. I really wish that we could go back to the old DU sometimes, where we may have had some big disagreements but we could at least debate with something more than insults.

[Runcible Spoon]

17. Another hearty KnR.

Thank you for articulating my feelings.

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. Well said and deserving of a multitude of recs.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

21. K&R!!!!!!!!

[HysteryDiagnosis]

22. You'd better pony up there.... and soon. n/t

[derby378]

25. Fuck yeah!

Especially with this revelation that Cheney left sleeper agents known as "stay-behinds" in key positions in the Obama administration. These people need to be purged and sent to the unemployment office. After that, President Obama, I have a little list...

[QC]

26. K&R!

:kick:

[Pavulon]

28. He did what he said he would do. You got what you voted for (nt)

[Runcible Spoon]

31. No political agenda is set in stone.

Being an effective agent of change does not mean donating cash to a campaign, casting a vote, and then summarily abdicating all activity. Government should NOT be left to function on its own without the engagement of the populace.

I felt all along Obama was being intentionally vague with a lot of his campaign promises. Don't ask me to list them-if you're interested enough you have the search function. It's not the point for this discussion. The point is, the vast majority of us KNEW what we were getting and voted for him knowing we would have our work cut out for us to push forward for things like healthcare, civil rights, economic justice, ending the Iraq war, etc.

All of the campaign's populist rhetoric did not cover up the fact that his economic advisory was chock full of Chicago School neoliberals. We knew this. We voted for him because we believed him when he said he wanted a transparent and responsive government. And most of us knew we would have to work to get that promise delivered in any real way, too.

To paint us all as a bunch of naive and ignorant idealists with buyer's remorse is just as belittling, disingenuous, and divisive as telling us we're stomping our little boots for want of ponies.

Can't you do any better than that? Why are you going out of your way to exemplify the rhetoric the OP is pointing out?

Edited for clarity and grammatical error-oh the horrors!

[Bjorn Against]

32. When I voted for him I knew I had some disagreements, does that mean I shouldn't have voted for him?

Your argument is one of the arguments that bothers me the most because it suggests that we should never criticize the people we vote for if they told us what they were going to do ahead of time. The fact is that we are never given very many choices in an election, and there was no candidate that I agreed with entirely. It was either vote for the person who I liked but had some big disagreements with, vote for the person that I did not like and disagreed with on pretty much every single issue, or don't vote at all. Obama was by far the best of those three options, but just because I voted for him does not mean I have to start agreeing with him on the issues I disagreed with him on before the election.

[Pavulon]

43. Sure Disagree. But I am not surprised by any

action he has taken yet. Basically he is acting in accordance with the ideas he set out in the election process.

I disagree with some of his positions but knew I would before he took office.

[Bjorn Against]

45. I am not surprised either, I fully expected I would be critical of his policies on these issues.

[mix]

58. Like keeping Bagram prison open

when did he say he'd do that? in fact he once believed that due process and Geneva had to be restored

[JackRiddler]

95. The truth is the reverse: You voted for what you got.

[tomp]

127. don't worry, next time i won't. nt

[Maven]

33. Ignore the party line enforcers.

Their mockery and their tactics are tired, and they were never real friends to progress in the first place.

[bullwinkle428]

36. Word. I really didn't have to go much beyond the

third paragraph to know how worthy this post was for a K&R!

[BlueJac]

38. A much needed post, finally some sense!

Thank you Bjorn Against.

[nc4bo]

39. K&R #47 n/t

[emilyg]

41. K/R

[G_j]

42. a toast to you!

if I'm a fire fighter, I will continue to fight fires....

[cliffordu]

44. Yep. K&R

[Canuckistanian]

46. "Dissent is patriotic" Good line

It was as true when Shrub was in office as it is now.

There is no such concept as "being satisfied with your government".

Fight for what you believe in. Don't trust that it will happen "some day"

[Sunnyshine]

105. Do not trust it will happen "some day" - as we have already been waiting decades.

We can't wait another 5 years! We can no longer afford to waste the resources. Local economies are getting worse.

Dem Congress should be working double time. I want to be the party of trendsetters that responds to the fierce urgency of now.

[annm4peace]

48. wow, where you at the Townhall meeting with Rep Ellison also ?

He has turned into a moderate.. and crowd of peace and social activist have him a pass.. although many were upset at his words of "peace" and patience.. they didn't show it.
It is so frustrating.
I hope we can elect a socialist next time because the DFL just isn't cutting it.

[Bjorn Against]

60. No, I am not in Ellison's district...

My so-called "representative" is John Kline, and he doesn't hold townhalls. Our little peace group down here in the second district is actually about to start a campaign to pressure him into having a townhall in which citizens can question him about the war and other concerns about his far-right policies. Sometime ask Coleen Rowley about the way she was treated when she ran against John Kline, she has a lot of interesting stories about how the powerful interests in both parties got in her way.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. For heaven's sakes, YES!

If you don't demand, you don't GET.

[burning rain]

50. Catherine the Great did...

and see what good a fucking pony did her.

OK, that was bad. I agree with you completely. The warmongering neocon maniacs need to be run out of American political life altogether, and making sure there's absolutely no place for their views in the Democratic Party is basic to that end. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan need to be brought to an end expeditiously.

[Marrah_G]

51. Really, really a terrific post.

I was glad to recommend it.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

53. K&R

[defendandprotect]

54. We elected Pelosi/Reid to end the wars -- they've re-funded them --- !!!

Including a surge -- !!!

[varelse]

56. I felt like standing up and cheering when I read this post

thank you!

[OwnedByFerrets]

57. Great Frikken Post!!!

Too bad you cant ask these questions of our President. I would love to hear his answers.

[Divine Discontent]

59. I support the sentiment that I just read. God bless & may we not keep silent. eom

[defendandprotect]

61. Much needed response . . .

to the "it's only 60 days" whining . . . !!!
Thank you --

Again . .. we elected the Democrats in 2006 to end the wars --
Pelosi herself confirms this on film the day after the election--!!!
And they've been re-financing these murderous wars for more than two years now!!!

We see over and again this childish concept that some here are in pain because of
criticism of Obama -- what of the pain being caused others -- gays in the military?
Soldiers being forced to serve over and over again?
The dead and innocent civilians in these countries we've invaded? The refugees?
The homeless in America? The poor and impoverished children -- 26% - in America?
The unemployed -- ?

It's hard to believe that these "it's only 60 days" threads keep popping up ---
and they should be replied to just as you've done here!!!

Also, evidently, some here think that DU should be a shelter from the outside world
of opinion which evidently they can't tolerate either!!!!

If they have come to DU to hide from outside opinion, I think that's an idea which
will harm us all!

[ekwhite]

62. K&R

Thanks for speaking out. The idea that we cannot criticize Obama is anti-democratic. I supported him during the primaries and during the general election. I will support him when I agree with his policies. But I am damn well not going to support him when he is doing strongly believe is wrong.

[mitchtv]

63. One more K&R

Thanks for a thoughtful, excellent post

[tomreedtoon]

64. I'll take your pony. Should be delicious.

Since we can't afford meat any more, and beef is supposedly bad for you.

[Raster]

65. Great post! And I might add, in addition to not wanting a fucking pony...

...I don't need the paid Obama-ettes calling me out because I'm holding our President's feet to the fire.

[TBF]

66. K&R

:applause:

[BlooInBloo]

67. (shrug) And you can be criticized BACK at. So there's no problem.

[Bjorn Against]

70. Sure go ahead and criticize me, I am more than capable of standing up for myself.

Please tell me what your criticism of me is and I will listen, as long as you are not simply throwing personal insults I promise that we will have a civil debate.

[BlooInBloo]

77. Next time I have one, I will.

[Maven]

72. Is the OP president? No?

You mean those two things aren't remotely on the same level?

You mean you're just being an asshole because the OP describes much of the antisocial behavior you yourself are constantly engaged in?

Huh.

(shrug)

[BlooInBloo]

76. Ah. Only Presidents can be criticized. Fascinating theory you have there.

[Baikonour]

98. Interesting straws you pulled there.

Keeping pulling.

[GOTV]

163. Is "You want a pony" a criticism? Is "You just hate Obama"? ....

This board could use more criticism and less dismissive soundbiting

[ColbertWatcher]

69. Beautifully put, k+r, n/t

[Brucie Kibbutz]

71. You are forgetting the most important thing.

The President can make bad decisions with impunity because he never said he'd do otherwise during the campaign. As long as you aren't "surprised" he made a bad decision, you shouldn't be able to criticize the decision. That's the logic the Obama fetishists around here use and it's fucking stupid.:banghead:



Well written OP, BTW. Proud to be rec #84

Now, let us all follow our leader who is above criticism....

[glitch]

74. K & R for adult discourse, Bravo Bjorn Against!

PS I like your DUer name.

[bigwillq]

75. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.

:bounce: :thumbsup:

Oh, and another thing...Obama is smarter than you. :P ;) :) :rofl:

[Political Heretic]

78. Thank you so much for the oustanding post.

On a personal note, it means a great deal to me today on a day when I'm so discouraged with how the concept of "supporting" a presidential leader has apparently changed to one of blind, unreflective, unqualified assent.

It used to be that presidential supporters saw themselves as "advocates" and saw their job to be pushing the president and making sure he toed the line. It's didn't used to be considered wrong or disrespectful. Nowdays, there is apparently a growing number of people who think our job is to be a bobble head for whatever the administration says, and do nothing but wave pom poms.

Government - whether is a government we support and elect or a government that we opposed - should be afraid of its people. It's people should drive policy and scare the shit out of Washington. Democrats should be backed by a loud, awake, alter and demanding public that puts its agenda right in their face each and every day.

Accountability should begin at day one, not some mythical future day when its been decreed "long enough" by the gatekeeper types that we've found here.

[tavalon]

89. Sir, would you be willing to post this as an original post

It is a basic part of being a citizen patriot that people seem to have lost. I've said so many times since President Obama won that I have two jobs - first to protect his back and second to hold his feet to the fire. And I've been fighting off the bobbleheads ever since.

[Political Heretic]

92. Not today - I've fought off enough angry people for one day with my other posts.

:(

[chill_wind]

100. Another post I wish I could kick.

"Democrats should be backed by a loud, awake, alter and demanding public that puts its agenda right in their face each and every day."

:applause:

And those post-counters and monitors with tally-sheets and clipboards who want to twist and translate that as "constantly negative" - and wishful for failure of the same man we actively went out to work for with our time and our money- can suck an egg. Or hit the easily accessible ignore button and go back to their rosier comfort zone.

[Kitty Herder]

79. Wonderful post.

You said so many things that I've been thinking, but you said them better than I could have.

[kid a]

80. and some people think that coming here and posting their anger and frustration

is a real act of social/political rebellion and the amount of rec's a post gets = another bar on your intelligentsia chest.

Enjoy your armchair revolution.

[tavalon]

90. That's a really old game there, pretending that if someone says something on a political site,

it's a substitution for going out and doing the "real work". Guess what? Plenty of us do both and they are both parts of the "real work".

That came off as very dismissive and I'm fairly sure you meant it to. Look yourself in the mirror and be aware that you just posted to this very same political website with your snide, uphelpful comment and then you might just want to consider apologizing to the OP, who is one of your allies, for being a dick.

[Political Heretic]

93. How about this, genius:

Yes, if someone posts on the internet they must be doing nothing else.

God, I wish I had the energy right now to talk about all the work I'm involved in but for starters....

Financial Impact Review Team


I'm in this picture, part of a team of community volunteers visiting agencies in our region with social program related to economic issues such as housing, food, assistance, etc - and reviewing grant applications and making decisions about where and how to award 1.7 million dollars in our community. As a MSW (Master of Social Work) part of my job was to help people understand the need for some of these services and to advocate for funding to programs that I feel are most critically important. Things like the Women and Children's Alliance and its IPV shelter and assistance programs, Local Legal Aid, the Rescue Mission, Food assistance programs by county, etc.

That's all volunteer work. I also work at the Child Welfare Center, which is a community organization that partners with both the State Department of Health and Welfare and also private child welfare agencies in work to improve child welfare outcomes and address the critical issues impacting children in our care.

Formally I ran the our statewide campaign against the (un)constitutional marriage ammendment in our state (campaign manager), I was also employed as a community organizer for the American Civil Liberties Union. I am currently applying for an additional part time job as a legislative coordinator for State Senate Democrats where I will work on policy, advocacy, communications direction, and legislative priorities for State Dems.

So......

FUCK OFF.

[Bjorn Against]

138. Who said this was an armchair revolution?

For your information I am involved in a great deal of activism outside DU. I participate in at least one protest a week, and over the course of the last few weeks I was actually involved in five protests. I also try to get meetings with local politicians, and in fact tomorrow I will be meeting with the prosecutor of the RNC 8 Susan Gaertner to ask her to drop the charges and stop harrassing protesters. I am also a volunteer organizer for the ACLU, and I am involved in a local peace group that is quite effective at getting things done. You can accuse me of an armchair revolution all you want, but you know nothing about me and I can guarantee that I am far more involved than most people that you know.

[Political Heretic]

171. What's wrong - cat got your tounge?

Yeah. That's what I thought.

[leftstreet]

81. K&R

[harmonicon]

82. speak for yourself - I want a pony!

I would feed him carrots and sugar cubes and call him Clancy, or Roger, or Skippy, or Blaze. We would go on adventures together.

[AZBlue]

84. He's supposed to have accomplished everything in two months?

[Two Americas]

85. why repeat this false idea?

Why repeat this false idea over and over again?

No one is saying that he is "supposed to have accomplished everything in two months."

[guruoo]

88. But that's exactly what it seems like sometimes. n/t

[Two Americas]

102. of course

It seems like that sometimes, because it is being repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated.


...

[guruoo]

159. eeeaahright.

:eyes:

[Two Americas]

242. well...

It is repeated here over and over again. If there is some other evidence to support the idea that the critics here are expecting everything to be accomplished in 2 months, let's see it.

[guruoo]

253. So, how many converts has your 'chicken and egg' defense won over so far?

[Two Americas]

254. zero

Round enough for you? I have no hope of that - I have been at this 40 years. I post for the sake of others who are reading this, that they can have their reality validated and be encouraged and not so intimidated.

I can convert a roomful of Republican-voting blue collar people to socialism in short order and with little resistance, but I have never made much headway on anything with the upscale white collar faction that dominates the party. Fortunately, there are not so many of them so there is no need to convert any of them at all. But others have a right to be free of the domination and bullying.


...

[guruoo]

255. 40 years is a long time. I've been at it ever since

the morning my mother woke me, screaming, "they got Bobby".

[Two Americas]

257. yes

Understood.

I had a chance to talk with him that Spring in a small gathering. Then came something I will never forget. We got word that he was making an unscheduled visit to 12th Street (Detroit) - one of the poorest neighborhoods in the city. We raced over there, and I will never forget the scene we watched. Thousands were in the streets, as word had spread that Bobby was coming. He left the limo and waded into the crowd, shaking hands, hugging people and chatting with them. It was hot, and he was in shirtsleeves. He went back to the car a couple of times to change shirts, because all of the people grabbing to shake his hand were fraying the sleeves. Rosie Greer was a looming, scowling presence and stayed close and scanned the crowd. I don't know if candidates had secret service protection then or not. Can't remember. I was just as critical and radical then as I am now, and I had not been a big fan of his, but that day in the streets of Detroit I thought - "he gets it. Maybe...just maybe..."

I will always think that we were on the verge of making a big leap back then. Ever since, people have been talking about "baby steps." The problem is, we have been steadily going in the wrong direction.

Now, once again....maybe. But our task, our duty, is the same as it has always been. Continue to speak out. Hold fast to the principles and ideals. Put not our faith in princes. That isn't "tearing down our president," quite to the contrary. It is the one thing, the single most powerful thing we can do to contribute to the potential success of the administration.


...

[Political Heretic]

94. They do it, I've decided, because they are disingenuous liars just like FoxNews talking heads.

I know that's harsh, but there it is.

It's the only explanation I can come up with for why the keep repeating the same bullshit talking points over and over again. It's their "agenda." To discredit engaged citizens actively participating in their government though issue advoacy and critical scrutiny of their administration and its policy positions...

It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.
It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.

[Raster]

101. It's not about speed. It's about direction.

Thank you.

[Enthusiast]

112. It's not about speed its about direction.

Right on! And if President Obama hears from enough of us maybe we can change direction. Say it loud! It's not about speed it's about direction!

[Reterr]

124. It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.

Thank you.

[MissDeeds]

128. You nailed it

Excellent analysis of the situation. :thumbsup:

[tomp]

130. It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION.

i would like some speed in the right direction, but i'll take direction over speed.

[blm]

214. I'll side with real DIRECTION and spit on their faux 'Speed' strawman, anyday.

KandR for a great thread.

[tavalon]

91. Nope, but neither are we to wait to push him until there has been a reasonable amount of time

passage as chosen by the DU monitors.

[LWolf]

150. I've never thought that

he had any intention of accomplishing any of it at all, regardless how long he is in office.

Which is a point that the convenient "it's only been _______days/months" overlooks.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

202. Time has nothing to do with it. It's what he's been doing in the time

and the direction he's been taking since taking office. He's selecting corporate whores and war criminals to work for him. He has not put an end to secret spying, he will not consider Universal health care, he is going to drown us with Afghanistan and his withdrawal plans from Iraq is not really much of a withdrawal. He has also not shown any consideration for the prosecution of war criminals.

All of these things might be fine with you but they certainly aren't with me.

[liberation]

209. God, I wish I had known about arbitrary deadlines for evaluation....

it would have worked wonders when I was growing up.

I think most people's who are complaining about Obama's actions are not doing so regarding what he has not achieved yet, but about some of what he has done so far. Credit where credit is due, and criticism when granted. Those are concepts that shouldn't be that hard to grasp, don't you agree.

Alas, I assume that red herring arguments may be easier than actual constructive engagement and discussion... right?

[spoony]

86. Rec'd, kicked, bookmarked. Great post

"The issues that are facing this nation are serious, and the only way we are going to solve them is if the people demand that they are solved. Our target is not Obama, our target is a right-wing agenda that has been in place long before Obama took office, and if we want Obama to bring about real change by stopping that agenda in its tracks then we need to put pressure on him to do so."

I wish I could make your whole post my sigline.

[Baikonour]

96. OP is obviously a freeper troll!

:sarcasm:

You're spot on, OP. Some of the people around here need to come back to reality.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

99. K&R

From the moment Obama made the comment about the precedence of the economy over Iraq something shifted.
Obama thinks very carefully when he speaks. Those words were not happenstance.

[Two Americas]

103. great work

Excellent post, and the response is very encouraging.

Thank you.

K and R.

[MiniMe]

104. Don't get fooled, sometimes it isn't really a pony.......

[TBF]

185. Heh - my favorite post in this whole thread! :)

[cooolandrew]

106. But to be fair the main blockage is the senate and as someone said public opinion >

change those things the rest is really easy but in some part no it's just reality we can't have everything at once and we have to be practical how we go about it or we lose congress as in 90s and things were extra effed then so it's not beating people down but being practical and knowing we won't get it all at once. Oppose him where needed. I think folks are saying not to the extent of driving down his approval where he can't operate at all. There is a legitimate fear we will relive the 90s if we beat the President into powerlessness so understand that factor too, getting to utopia does take patients, it's not ideal but it's the way it is. All we asking for is constructive criticism of destructive so we're playing smart.

[winyanstaz]

107. Thank you for a great post

I have to agree with you. As much as I want Obama to be able to be the one to save this nation, I will not just sit back and say nothing if I think he is on the wrong track.
President Obama has asked us, himself, to hold him accountable and as good citizens, we should.
I am also speaking up when I see things he has done that I agree with. This is how real freedom is.
We wont always agree with each other or with the government, but we must keep our public servants accountable. This is true no matter WHO is in office.

[Enthusiast]

108. K&R! Excellent

And it is just what I wanted to say. I'm all right behind President Obama. But I'm not all behind wrong. If I wanted wrong I would voted for McCain and Palin.

[Norrin Radd]

113. kr

[democrank]

114. If being a good Democrat means we must mechanically nod

then how are we different from the "with us or with the terrorists" Bush supporters? Because I voted for Obama I`m supposed to wildly clap over his choice for Defense Secretary? My lips are supposed to be zipped over his Wall Street bailout? Am I supposed to ignore Iraq? Afghanistan? Pretend it`s another beautiful day in those neighborhoods?

All this "poutrage" bullshit is exactly the same mindset that helped bring us our see-no-evil, don`t-make-waves, consult-with-the-lobbyists-before-you-vote Congress. Hope you enjoy the daily cave-ins.

I`m in my 60s and know the difference between citizens sitting around nodding and citizens demanding real change. I`m more interested in paying attention to where we`re going than counting the number of days we`ve been on the road. One thing`s for sure....nodding is what altered the Democratic Party. It`s what allowed the center line to be pushed to the right and it`s what silenced a majority for years while we slaughtered Iraqi children and blew limbs off our soldiers. It`s what allowed torture and outsourced jobs, it`s what allowed us to gush over McMansions while people floated through the Ninth Ward in New Orleans. Nodding is how we became slaves to slogans and backdrops. Enough is enough. Compromise is a good thing, abandoning principles is not.

[pam4water]

129. Yes yes yes! oh and K & R

[ekwhite]

136. Amen!

This deserves an OP on its own. I voted for and even sent money to Obama because I felt the alternative would be an unmitigated disaster. We have a decent President - but that doesn't mean I can't and won't criticize him. There are those on Democratic Underground who want nothing but presidential cheerleaders. I am not one of them. I won't surrender my values and my common sense just because a Democrat is now in the White House.

[FLAprogressive]

115. That's funny. I posted something like this the other day and it got locked. - K&R though

[GeorgeGist]

116. Neither did ...

the native 'americans'. So the foreign powers fucked them for it.

[amyrose2712]

117. +++!!! GREAT POST...

I don't like the whole step in line thing. One question. Do the Freepers argue amongst themselves or do they just follow. At the least, we can say we can differ in opinion. Not all just robots.

[cate94]

119. Thank you for saying this!

"Our target is not Obama, our target is a right-wing agenda that has been in place long before Obama took office, and if we want Obama to bring about real change by stopping that agenda in its tracks then we need to put pressure on him to do so."

Exactly.

[jaundicedi]

120. One more thing...

Why the FUCK is the School of the Americas still open?

[reprehensor]

123. Yeah.

You got dat right.

[4_TN_TITANS]

126. What he said...(op) n/t

[leftchick]

131. ...

http://www.chris-floyd.com/war/

[MissDeeds]

133. Thank you! This needed to be said

And you said it perfectly. I am tired of the "either you're with us, or your against us mentality" that's plagued DU lately. We have suffered through eight years of pure hell and want to see real change. Of course it can't happen all at once, but you can bet that we are going to be watching closely the direction this administration is taking the country and will call 'foul' when necessary.

K&R :kick:

[Bluenorthwest]

134. Excellent post

With fantasatic replies all over the thread. Thanks.

[tomp]

135. not a bandwagon kind of guy.

all my life i've been suspicious of the crowd. the crowd is generally wrong, count on it. the obamaphile crowd is generally if not totally wrong. i'm sorry they can't see it yet, but the truth is so obvious to me that i assume one day they will get it. so i keep tellin' 'em. if obama is the change you're looking for you're too easily satisfied, and we're not on the same side (hint: in the real world there are more than two sides).

[liberalsince1968]

140. WELL SAID. I didn't ASK for anything but what I EXPECTED was a

president who wouldn't follow in Bush's torture secrecy footsteps.

And I didn't get it, and I will NEVER stop speaking up about it. N E V E R.

[Orsino]

141. No time for ponies. Too much real work still to do.

:thumbsup:

[elizfeelinggreat]

142. "I'm asking you to believe

Not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... I'm asking you to believe in yours." Barack Obama

Straight from the Organizing for America website. Sounds like you've gotten the President's message exactly right and those who want his supporters to sit quietly by and just watch have it very wrong.

Reading these posts has made me feel much better this morning. Thanks.

[FailureToCommunicate]

143. Put me down as agreeing with you. Separate but related: Why are there so many

"warmongering neocon maniacs" -as another poster called them -ruining our world, killing our children, running our finances? Where do they keep coming from?
Where do they learn to be so evil? Is it all just $urvival of the greediest to them? Just wondering...

[TBF]

186. All you have to do is follow the money...

... here is one fairly recent (2008) article on some of the profiting during the Bush administration: http://www.salon.com/news/excerpt/2008/05/29/spies_for_hire/

[FailureToCommunicate]

208. Thanks for the article. Very insightful and disturbing reading.

[Xenotime]

144. FUCK Yea! I want to see some real change. ALl those trooops should be home by now.

[jeff30997]

145. I don't want a fucking pony either.

I had one 20 years ago and it was the crappiest car I ever owned. :)

[TechBear_Seattle]

147. A pony is exactly what we are going to get

Goodness knows, there is enough horse manure currently in DC that there must be enough ponies for every American to get one.

[LWolf]

148. Kick and F'n R. nt

[fascisthunter]

149. Make That 188 Recommends

[Lyric]

151. Which just makes it all the more obvious that those who are loudest

at slamming criticism of Obama are assuming a majority behind them that they do not actually have.

[Two Americas]

244. yes

The tail is wagging the dog. A relatively small minority of people here dominate the discussion, mostly through the use of bullying tactics.

[SammyWinstonJack]

153. .

:applause: :yourock:

[SlingBlade]

154. It HAS been a disappointment

However, I am willing to give President Obama lot’s of space due to
the reality of what he has inherited.

I think some 70 day’s in office is way too early to judge his administration or
him personally as a failure. I know you to be an honest D.Uer, And I have no
problem with honest criticism of President Obama, The Party or any other
blaring scar we may see.

That being said, I feel, No I know, That way too much dishonest criticism
of Obama has been posted here on D.U recently, And that is something that
needs to be called on. Any D.Uer who starts their post out with the words
“Fuck Obama”, Is neither honest nor a help but more of a freeper in my opinion.

:kick:

[debbierlus]

155. TELL IT! A big Kick & Recommend

[Bluenorthwest]

156. A word about actual ponies and horses

The fact is that the economic crisis is forcing many people who already have ponies to give them up or abandon them. Horses and dogs and cats and other animals are too expensive for many to continue caring for. This is an actual issue for those who care about animals.
So any of the Pony shouters out there want to adopt one? There are already too many to go around. The latest figures I could find estimate between 100,000 and 150,000 have already been sent abroad for slaughter, as people are forced to give them up and funds for rescue dry up.
Tens of thousands of slaughered ponies. That is the reality of ponies, 2009. Slaughter and snark, the American way!

[Bjorn Against]

249. Thank you for posting this, it is an important issue.

As I am sure you are aware my post was not meant as an attack on ponies, and I totally agree with you that we need to treat our animals much better. If I had the means to adopt a pony I would, and I hope that someone reads your post and does adopt one because we need to do everything we can to ensure that all animals are able to get a good home.

[bos1]

157. Grow up. Afghanistan = UN effort. Iraq = working on it. Econ = ". Going after Bushco = "

The Afghanistan conflict is one the world knows must be dealt with, which is why the UN is along for the ride.
Iraq is a complicated mess that Obama is doing his politically-possible best to deal with.
Same with the economy and going after the complicated mess that has become of US free market unregulated capitalism.

In terms of "accountability brought to all the criminals who violated our rights", listen: Ford pardoned Nixon and Nixon went free. Johnson got away with Gulf of Tomkin (the WMD of Vietman). Roosevelt didn't prosecute the CEOs that were planning a coup against him when Smedley Butler told him about the plot.

In other words, you have to understand what is politically possible, in a realistic sense. Or else, yes, you will be reminiscent of a child asking Santa for a pony.

[Bluenorthwest]

161. Declaring something impossible

is just another way to say 'I am not able to do it'. It is also a way of promoting that which is unilaterally declared possible.
I've met lots of mediocre people in my life. For them, much of what I have done would have been impossible. For them. Not for me. Not for lots of other people.
At Olympic events, I witness people doing things that for me are flat out impossible.
Things that have been called impossible include going faster than a horse, going faster than sound, going to the moon. Flight of any kind. Sufferage. The end of slavery. Curing polio, small pox etc. In fact, I heard many people, both supporters and otherwise, who declared the election of Barack Obama to be impossible. And yet, I watched him emerge from a flying contraption as President, as his Space organization plans trips to Mars, to be built without slave labor, by a population that is free of small pox and polio, along with his wife, who has been known to cast a vote.
The impossible is usually just a thing that has not yet happened.

[Bjorn Against]

162. Afghanistan never attacked us...

Not one 9/11 hijacker was from Afghanistan, and there is no evidence bin Laden is there anymore either. Afghanistan poses no threat to the US, and they have never posed us a threat. The war in Iraq needs to be ended and Obama promised to end it, but we have 1,000 National Guard troops from here in Minnesota that are about to be sent out there again.

It was wrong for Ford to Pardon Nixon, it was wrong to let Johnson get away with his lies about Vietnam, and Roosevelt should have prosecuted those CEOs.

It is politically possible to bring accountability, the problem is the people in power don't want to be prosecuted so they will do everything they can to try and convince us it is impossible.

People who tell others to "grow up" simply because they express an opinion you disagree with shows a severe lack of argumentation skills, it is exactly that type of insult that this OP was directed against.

[bos1]

165. your tendency to feel insulted shows a lack of argumentation skills

and "grow up" just means "be realistic". Roosevelt knew it was impossible to prosecute those CEOs because a country in depression couldn't take such a huge uproar and having their major industrialists in the slammer.

Don't get me wrong, our politics are probably very similar -- the thought of J. Paul Getty, Nixon and Johnson doing time is an attractive one. Saudi Arabia looked just as accountable as the Taleban on 9/11. And I despise the Iraq War, organized the first anti-war march in my area against it, and would like the architects of it to do multiple life sentences over it. And it's good for you (us) to keep pushing for the kind of accountability that we know is right.

But it's wrong to turn that into an anti-Obama blast. I totally appreciate the many achievements Obama already has under his belt, and I cheer him on in every way. Gitmo is closing, the trials have been stopped. The US is joining the UN Human Rights Council. A budget dealing with the US infrastructure has just been passed. I honestly believe he is doing all he can. And it is both politically wrong and stupid to take it for granted.

[Bjorn Against]

166. "Grow up" is an ad hominem attack, I can handle the insult but that is not a real argument.

And my OP was not an "anti-Obama blast" in fact I made it quite clear that I support Obama on many issues.

We are always told however to be "realistic", for generations people were told to be realistic and not make waves. At one time people said it would be unrealistic to end slavery, at one time people said it would be unrealistic to give women the right to vote, at one time people said it would be unrealistic to allow workers to form unions, change is always labeled as unrealistic unless it is a change that the people in power want. So don't tell me what is realistic and what is not, because the people who brought about real change were never considered to be realistic people in their day.

[bos1]

262. to repeat -- I think your "unrealistic " is basically Havel's "optimism"

Vaclav Havel, a man who knows a little bit about expectations from government, once made a statement contrasting hope versus optimism. Optimism, he said, was doing the right thing and thinking it would make a difference. Hope is doing the right thing even though you think it probably won't.

I think optimists tend to get disappointed and bitter. The hopeful see what Obama is doing, are not at all disappointed with the amazing changes he has made, while we still push for more.

[LostinVA]

230. You forgot to say "poutrage"

[Symarip]

160. What's wrong with wanting a pony?

I want one.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

164. Rec #195

:applause:

I quit visiting DU a week ago. Not even a peek until today. I am disgusted by the same old voices cheering EVERY FUCKING THING Obama does - no matter how much it goes against why I voted for him. I have been told I am "whining" when I say I want out of Iraq and Afghanistan. I was told by one DUer to "grow up." I have been told that prosecuting WAR CRIMINALS is not in our best interest. :wtf:

The escalation of the war in Afghanistan and staying in Iraq are on the top of the list.

We are moving into the Vietnam of this century. It is more "stay the course" b.s. -

[femrap]

167. Not all the money in the

world of bailouts can put the U.S. Economy back together....Humpty Dumpty.

All the $$ given to AIG and Wall Street could have given us a great start on single-payer, but that was not the decision made by Geithner, Obama, and Summers....and all the other brown-nosers of the Sickeningly Wealthy.

When all the food is gone and they are forced to eat their money, they will choke to death.

WASF.

[change_notfinetuning]

168. Barack Obama is getting us into Afghanistan and out of Iraq just as

carelessly as George Bush got us into Iraq. More time? More time will not improve bad decisions. More time will only make it harder to erase these mistakes. Speak up now or regret it later.

George McGovern, the best presidential candidate I have ever had the chance to vote for, was ridiculed for saying that if he were elected, he'd have all troops out of Vietnam in 90 days. After Tricky "Secret Plan" Dick Nixon declared "peace with honor", he withdrew the troops in 60 days. Sixteen or 19 months isn't a big difference although it's heavy loaded at the end, but 35,000 - 50,000 "residual troops"? I guess that depends on what "getting out" means.

If you couldn't tell, I am not a Republican. Additionally, for the first time since McGovern, I was thrilled to be able to vote FOR a candidate for president instead of for the lesser of two evils. I'm not saying the honeymoon is over. Ever the optimist, I still have a great deal of hope. But, like the wife in the movie, The Heartbreak Kid, the burn is really starting to hurt. Flirting is one thing. Making new plans with his new friends doesn't bode well for our future.

[redqueen]

170. It's beyond me why people want to conflate legitimate criticsm

with crap like "FUCK OBAMA" and comments about how members here want to destroy the democratic party.

Also impossible to confuse with legitimate criticism is the cheerleading for M$M hit-pieces. Sure someone could be genuinely sucked in by the BS spin... but after it's been pointed out to them and yet they persist in pushing it? No... that's not legitimate either.

That is not dissent.

[Bjorn Against]

174. Alright I am no defender of the corporate media but...

Just because you "point out" that you think something is spin doesn't necessarily mean that it is spin. While it is true that parroting Rush Limbaugh is not legitimate criticism, I think the words of Paul Krugman are legitimate whether you agree with them or not.

[redqueen]

175. I'm talking about stuff like the teleprompter...

and the question Hillary asked about the painting in Mexico. Also idiotic editorials or obviously BS articles... such as the hit piece on Rahm Emmanuel re: his position on the board of Fannie Mae.

Do I really need to specify that I'm not talking about Paul Krugman?

Jesus.

[Bjorn Against]

178. Sorry, there has just been so much yelling about Krugman on this site that it is hard to know...

I ignored all the stories about the teleprompter, I never even heard anything about a painting in Mexico, and I will agree with you that there are some pretty pointless attack pieces out there. I think there are some very legitimate criticisms as well and I am tired of seeing people dismiss all criticism. I am not saying you are doing that but some people are.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

172. Oh God More Poutrage.

:eyes:

[Bjorn Against]

173. Do you have an actual argument or are you only able to hurl insults?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

176. Stomp Stomp Stomp

[Bjorn Against]

179. That's what I thought, you have no argument.

[Bunny]

180. He never does. Don't sweat it.

[Bjorn Against]

190. Don't worry, I'm not sweating it.

He just reinforced the entire point of my OP, I should almost be thanking him for proving my point for me.

[Bunny]

191. That's his one true talent!

;)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

184. Ok Ok, I Give In. Enough Of The Stomping. Here's Your Fukcin Pony

And while we're at it, might as well supply ya one of these too:

[Maven]

252. Someone needs to tell you

what a douchebag you look like right now.

[mike_c]

210. ahh-- DU's favorite IGNORE-amous has arrived!

K&R for a brilliant OP, by the way!

[burythehatchet]

222. HAHHAHA...I had to look at the thread without signing in because you post

inspired me to guess.....

guess what?

:rofl:

[RetroLounge]

238. So speaketh the asshat

:puke:

RL

[change_notfinetuning]

181. If the University of Chicago existed before the Civil War, these experts

would have proposed a cap-and-trade on slavery. And a President Obama would have gone along with it.

If there is to be change we can believe in, Obama must be weaned from the University of Chicago influence. In all areas, but specifically with regard to health care. This is our one chance for single payer health care, and they don't like it. The way he dismisses the right to health care, that just because someone is sick he thinks he deserves to get treatment, sounds like he is equating it with asking for a steak dinner, a new car, or some other frivolous wish at taxpayer expense. We are talking about health care, President Obama. And we are already paying for it - just not delivering.

Looking at his appointees, I think I'm catching on. Change is in the eye of the beholden.

[Riverman]

216. Absolutely! Get the insurance companies and corporatist out of

decisions about needed medical treatment for my children, partner, family, neighbors, co-workers and me.

[Eric J in MN]

182. K & R (NT)

NT

[jsamuel]

187. It is amazing how policy disputes have been minimalized on the blogsphere as a whole.

What happened? People have gone from arguing over the policy Democrats SHOULD have to cheer leading what Democrats already have. I like Howard Dean's efforts to get the public option added to Obama's health bill.

[cherokeeprogressive]

188. Gladly kicked and rec'd n/t

[shagsak]

189. Well put.

[adamuu]

192. FDR famously said, "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it."

Can we please end this "only 70 days" versus "hurry the hell up" DUargument?
Can we agree that we should apply CONTINUOUS pressure on all of our leaders in order to get what we want? This has always been true, but it is even more true now that we have a good leader in place.

[Badlands Democrat]

193. You are one person out of millions and millions of people...

that voted for President Obama. You'll agree with him sometimes, but not all the time. You can't always get what you want, but it turns out, you sometimes get what you need.

[specimenfred1984]

194. Thank you for posting this.

Well said.

[enigmatic]

195. Great post

I agree completely w/ this. :thumbsup:

[The_Casual_Observer]

196. However, the "Hope" poster was pretty cool.

[jsamuel]

197. "Hope" was Obama's original campaign slogan, not "Change".

In fact, "Change" was Edwards' campaign slogan. Obama switched from "Hope" to "Change" around the time of Yearly Kos (if I remember correctly). It is part of the reason why I have doubted his commitment to enacting large changes. Although I do think he has and will make changes that most other Democrats would, I don't think he is willing to take the larger leaps that we really need right now. One example is the public option is missing in his health care plan. I think that is necessary for the plan to work and not get too expensive. The risk being a failed Democratic plan which could set us back decades.

[TwilightZone]

200. You doubted his commitment because of a campaign slogan?

I think that you might want to reconsider the things you allow to influence your opinions.

[jsamuel]

203. heh, i said "part of the reason"

And not just the slogan, but how and when it was adopted. It would be just as easy to criticize people who believed he WOULD enact change based on his campaign slogan.

[Matariki]

198. Thank you!

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for getting it and for expressing it so well.

[demmiblue]

199. Well said... K & R (and bookmarked)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

201. Well, when I was a kid all I wanted was a pony but now all I want is our

Constitution back, the people who own our politicians in prison like Madoff, that we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan immediately, that the rule of law be followed - prosecuting all war criminals, and a President who makes the decisions he makes for the benefit of we the people and not the corporatists. Is that too much to ask?

[nichomachus]

204. Best DU post so far this year n/t

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

206. Oops. Look at that.

I kicked it.

Awesome post.

[moodforaday]

207. K&R. DU would not be worth reading

were it not for posts like yours. Thank you.

[Grinchie]

211. Thats why the Powers That Be hate "Liberals".

It's because when we want something, we usually stick with it, and learn to distrust those that say one thing, yet do another. This independant thinking threatens the power structures established in the Emerican Government and affiliated industries that attempt to control us through Media, Political and Economic methods.

Conformity is key for their models to work, which why they hate the thought of same sex marriage, a womans choice, a liberal education, and legalized drugs. All of those articles allow them to label large groups of people "Liberal", Hippie, Non-conformists, Socialists, Peaceniks, etc. Fascists hate free will. They are too lazy to accept it, and find compulsory adherence to the leader as paramount for society.

When the government becomes one big Good Ole Boys club, eventually people start to notice it's the same Good Ole Boys that are left running the back office, while the masthead is preened for Public Relations and putting on a good show, and relating a message that hopefully will indicate to the people what has already been determined in the back room.

The only way to stop being taken advantage of as citizenry is to actually do something that affects the country, such as sit down strikes, refusal to pay for taxes as long as their is war or a broken medical system.

We have tremendous power as a people United. Just look at the wealth of just a few of our Corporations over the years, and you can see how well we have done for the Powers That Be. While today's economic hardship seems deep and severe, it is in reality a process of weaking the resolve of the well fed, well informed citizen who is on the verge of saying "Enough".

For those of us that had the foresight and good fortune to identify this process 6 years ago, we have already extricated ourselves from the shadow economy that that still controls many. We are now seeing a shock to the system of an immense magnitude, and when the day of reckoning comes, such as when people actually start asking for proof of service for their tax dollars, or demanding that our medical system is cleaned up, or that our ludicrously large, and mostly unused military is pruned back, government and all of it's psychological models on mass behavior are going to be obsolete. The eggheads that wrote the software are still living in the Cold War era, and they don't have any ideas on how to model a "Free" society without the old 1984, perpetual threat theory.

We see the so called "Conservatives" baiting their based with inflamatory rhetoric. We see the currently enigmatic Glenn Beck weeping daily because he loves his country, but the only message appears to be of divide and conquer.

We are either on the verge of a massive awakening of the people, or we are on the verge of a class war based part on facism and part on socialism, both financed by the world bank. We must not lose control and go into anarchy, because this is just another excuse for the Military state to exercise there incredibly sophisticated weapons system we paid for to be used against us.

The trick then, is to make sure that nobody ever is their to operate them in the first place. They will try very hard to enable the use of force against any that rebel, but the rule of law must be upheld so they don't get a chance to plant false flags in the midst of a grassroots, peaceful attempt at dialogue.

[truedelphi]

220. I wish it was that people would be awakening.

Every time I hear from another DU'er that we need to give the new Administration some time to let things come to fruition, I want to bang my head for about a year.

Bad plans do not need time. They need to be stopped.

[OneBlueSky]

212. so would you take a non-fucking pony? . . . n/t

[Raksha]

213. K&R - couldn't have said it better!

[Riverman]

215. Bravo! This is What It Means to be a Democrat or Progressive

In a democratic nation! This one paragraph from this most excellent statement sums it up:

"The truth is that we supported Obama during the election, we even campaigned for him. We will continue to support him when does right, but we will not back down when we think he is wrong. The world does not revolve around any single person, and we are not going to pretend that it is more important to refrain from criticizing a politician than it is to stand up for the values that are important to us."

Obama needs to pay attention to the actual people who worked for and voted for his election. It was not about him the person - it was that we was not Bush, not McCain and not more war and not welfare for the rich.

[lostnotforgotten]

217. Well Said!

eom

[Taverner]

218. I agree - and what bothers me most is the renaming of combat troops in Iraq

I would be up for Afghanistan, if we stuck to the original idea and ONLY the original idea (get Bin Laden. get Al Queda) and then leave when we're done.

[Kermitt Gribble]

221. Someone sticky this post! n/t

[burythehatchet]

223. No. 252. Thanks.

[dcindian]

224. It has been said that leading Democrats is like herding cats.

I like that about us.

If I could recommend this thread 100 more times I would which is kind of ironic.

[Butch350]

225. Sure! No problem! I get all that done for ya in (6) months...

anything else?

[LostinVA]

231. Direction, not speed -- actually read the OP

[mzmolly]

226. The problem is that we were not promised many of the things

you note. That said, of course it's fine to speak out for what you desire, but I don't know that it's fair to assign Obama a list of failed promises that he never made? Certainly Obama has insisted on help for homeowners and there is legislation that recently passed to address that.

[Bjorn Against]

229. I never claimed he made those promises, but that is beside the point.

We can't simply say because he never promised something that we should not work to push him towards what we want. No one claimed he promised to end the war in Afghanistan, in fact we know that he promised to escalate that bloody and destructive war. His position is wrong, and it doesn't matter if he never said he was going to do right because he should do the right thing now even if he was wrong in the past.

[mzmolly]

251. Of course I fully support

the conclusion that we can push for whatever progressive change we seek.

Peace

[SwiperFox]

227. It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION!!!

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

There is only ONE party and, even if you outwardly deny it, you know the truth in the bottom of your heart.
Stop being cowards and admit the government does NOT lookout for the people but only for the CORPORATE MONEY PARTY. You feel powerless and need daddy government to keep you safe? Can't fathom the idea that democracy is long gone and only propaganda moves you to play an us vs. them game through party battles? Rhetoric is propaganda! Money talks!

Still trust the puppet we have as a president? Think realists complain too much and he needs more time to make the right choices? Well... "It's not about SPEED its about DIRECTION!" -Political Heretic

A well-earned battle cry when the rich get this:




While the worker class gets this:

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bjorn Against]

233. It is not my job to decide what criticism is fair and what is not, nor is that your job.

But since you asked, yes I think the criticism in that OP is fair criticism. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it is a fair argument and I bet even Obama would agree that it is a fair critique even though I am sure he could give a good defense for his position. I have very mixed feelings about cigarette taxes myself, I hate cigarettes and the harm they do to our public health but at the same time it is true that a cigarette tax disproportionately harms lower income people.

My thoughts on the cigarette tax aren't the issue though, because I can see the arguments for and against it. The person who wrote that article made a fair argument against it, and just because you disagree with them does not mean it is not constructive criticism.

[redqueen]

234. LOL!

I'm so not surprised.

[Bjorn Against]

235. I said I don't necessarily agree with it, but just because I may not agree does not make it unfair.

Like I said, I am willing to bet even Obama would view that as a valid critique, but I also believe he would have a good defense for his position. We can interpret things in different ways, but we should not automatically dismiss arguments we disagree with as not being constructive.

[debunkthelies]

239. K&R

How very true.:applause: :applause:

[closeupready]

240. Wow. Just wow. BIG BIG BIG K&R, Bjorn.

You are The Man.

[flyarm]

241. Thank you so much Bjorn Against!!! We, the people of the United States

We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I don't want a fucking pony either!!

I just want my country back.

I want my constitution back.

I want our kids home..not 21,000 more of our kids sent to Afganistan.

I want children to have health care and I want all Americans to have health care..I have lived in Canada and a couple other countries , and none of those other countries let people go without health care, or medicines.

I want children to have a clean bed to sleep in at night and not be in cars or under bridges or tent cities..we were a wealthy country until repulbicans destroyed that..no one , especially children and seniors should be put out into streets, when the wealthy few can sit on yachts and sip martini's with our money.

I do not want a president who can fire someone in a ceo postion while helping other crooks, because it suits him,and destroying so many people's livelyhood.

I do not want a new president who surrounds himself with the very people who have been recycled over and over by Republicans..( KISSINGER!!!!!!!!).or puts people who have failed our saving institutions and the very businesses that our future dependcs on ...in his administration!

And ..

I don't want any fucking ponies!!!!!!!!!!!

[slipslidingaway]

245. Wonderful......!!!!! Thank you n/t

[unapatriciated]

246. Thank you...

In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, Brave, Hated, and Scorned. When his cause succeeds however,the timid join him, For then it costs nothing to be a Patriot.
-- Mark Twain

I will not be timid.

[unapatriciated]

247. sorry duplicate

but another kick for a great post.

[Bjorn Against]

248. Wow, everyone thank you so much for the kind words from so many of you.

When I wrote the OP last night I was extremely frustrated with some of the things I have seen on DU over the past few months and I felt I needed to say something, but I was not expecting such a positive response. I was really worried that this thread would erupt in a flame war, and that is something that I did not want. While I was more than prepared to defend my position I think the constant flame wars have been destructive to DU, and if we could all just learn to listen to one another a bit better we could get a lot more accomplished.

We have some strong Obama supporters here who add a lot of value to this site, and we have some vocal critics here who also add a lot of value. We can get along with one another, and we can all make a difference in this world. There will be times when Obama is fighting the good fight and will need the support of all of us, there are also times in which he will be wrong and needs to be confronted. We may not always be on the same side of every issue, but in the end we need to respect one another and stop the ad hominem attacks.

I appreciate all the support that you have given me, thank you so much. I never would expected that I would receive so many recs for this thread, I think this is a new record for me and I certainly did not expect this to be the post that would break my previous record. Thanks to all of you, you really made me feel a lot better about posting here more often.

[Zhade]

256. Indeed. FUCK those assholes.

NT!

[demmiblue]

263. Kick... again!

[TBF]

264. Someone started yelling about ponies again this morning...

time for another kick. :kick: