'Parents to blame' for problems in UK schools

[panzerfaust]

As much as I disrespect public school teachers, and the non-college public schools in general, I do think they have a very strong point here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/apr/05/schools-behaviour-teachers-parents
Teachers have launched a devastating attack on parents, accusing many of failing in their responsibilities and undermining schools.

Children are now arriving at school socially undeveloped, increasingly unable to dress themselves, unable to use the toilet properly and unused to eating at a table ...

...the problem is not children living in poverty; most come from homes with televisions, computers and games consoles. What they do not have "are adults who are prepared to give their time and energy doing that most difficult but essential of jobs, raising their children properly"

That last sentence captures the crux of the issue: The only way to raise children is to spend time with them. If you do not have the time to spend, or are not willing to spend that time, then ...

[MadHound]

1. Something that has been an increasing problem for the past thirty years

I saw this back when I was in school, and it's only gotten worse sense then. Now it's so bad that it is actively interfering with the job that a teacher is supposed to do.

But sadly, too many people just continue to heap abuse on teachers, blaming them for all the ills in our education system.

[Fire1]

2. I've been saying this for years. n/t

[glowing]

3. AND that is the problem.. at least in the US, time. Parents do not have the

time to parent while working their 2 or 3 jobs to keep food and house over head. Something has got to give with helping parents out with time. We need to find a real solution to our society that expects and demands that all people work, but also allows for parents to raise thier offspring. I think we really need to inspire an American Culture. AN expectation needs to be set on what we expect from our children, our leaders, our workers, our expression. I like that Obama seems to be defining who we are in America.. Changing the entire mind-set of what and who we are as Americans.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Yet I've seen plenty of kids with a full-time stay-at-home parent who are just as clueless

Yes, there are people who are truly unable to spend time with their kids because of work and financial pressures, but there are others who don't have that excuse. I can't tell you how many teenagers and young adults I run into who are thoroughly incompetent at basic life tasks and it wasn't because mommy and daddy didn't spend enough time with them. In fact, the opposite was true. Mommy and daddy did EVERYTHING for them because it's actually easier than teaching the kids to be self-sufficient.

If you think I'm kidding get a load of this:

http://www.canada.com/Life/Moms+write+survival+guide+coddled+young+adults/801230/story.html

[glowing]

11. Much of that goes back to the now adults having less parenting as they were growing up.

My mother did the best to help us out; if it wasn't for a Grandmother and an aunt and a babysitter/ mom with similar values, then I'd be less of who I am. I am now miles and miles away from that family support structure, and I fear that I will fall short of my son.. even though, I know I do more than most parents do with their children. I'm sure I'm spoiling him with expectations in a future partner.. with all the good cooking, home gardening, creative time activities, and just plain silly-time screw it days that I insist on every once in a while... Its still super tough. 56hrs a week at work doesn't leave a lot of left over time...

[Hello_Kitty]

13. Expectations for a future partner?

How about teaching him to do all that stuff for himself? Young men are especially more likely to be coddled by their parents where household skills are concerned and willing to live in squalor until they find a woman to cook for and clean up after them.

[glowing]

51. Excuse me, the child is 4 and helps me out with everything from dishes, to stirring

on the cooking stove, to helping plant, water and weed my garden.. and yes, he should expect that a future partner should do just that.. and who says that my 4 yr old won't grow up and be gay.. you are assuming mightily the rolls of men and women in your own statement... the child is not spoiled in anything but lots of hugs, kisses, and family support.

[Hello_Kitty]

54. Nice try but that's not what your original statement inferred.

My mother did the best to help us out; if it wasn't for a Grandmother and an aunt and a babysitter/ mom with similar values, then I'd be less of who I am. I am now miles and miles away from that family support structure, and I fear that I will fall short of my son.. even though, I know I do more than most parents do with their children. I'm sure I'm spoiling him with expectations in a future partner.. with all the good cooking, home gardening, creative time activities, and just plain silly-time screw it days that I insist on every once in a while... Its still super tough. 56hrs a week at work doesn't leave a lot of left over time...

Either there were no males in your family whatsoever or you grew up in a situation with traditional gender roles. And then you make a comment about your son's future partner. How do YOU know he won't grow up to not want a partner at all? :shrug:

[glowing]

60. I'm a woman.. so women tend to influence me a bit more on things like

mothering.. which I am.. If I was a father, I'd probably reverse that. The men in my life were pretty great too.. living in farm country tends to equalize the sexes.. Chores are chores no matter who you are.. all hands on deck. I was commenting on the help that my mother was able to get in providing mothering figures for me to grow up with so that I wouldn't miss her as much as I did.

I happened to marry a man who knows how to do all these things, thanks to his mother.. who did get to be an at home mom. On the other hand, I've known many people my age who do not have these life skills. It amazes me how much they rely on micorwaves, take out, and restaurants... or can not sew a simple button back on, let alone a hem line.. or iron. These are life skills that are taught. Time is not on the side of the modern family these days.. and then all the children living in a single-home situation just makes things even harder. That saying about a license for everything, but having kids.

As to him having a partner, maybe I'm just projecting future grandchildren that I'd really want.. I suppose he could do it on his own, but at 4yrs old.. I've got a while before I even get him out the door.

[Fire1]

15. I agree on one point. The days of the 'extended family' have

been lost for many years, much to my chagrin. Many values have faded, as a result. One good thing I hope comes out of this economic crisis, if only by force or necessity, is the return of the extended family.

[Mother Of Four]

22. Not trying to pick you apart here....

But how old is your son?

My parenting view was up until 10, mom did it while they learned. I asked "So..where does this go?" they would tell me and wala. I would sit them on a counter in the kitchen next to me, or let them stand a stool while I cooked. They would watch me fold clothes, and pipe up with "Mine go HERE mama!"

The only one I'm having an issue with is my 12 year old daughter, she knows how to do things but she can get pretty lazzzzzzzy. :)

All of my kiddos know:

How to roast meat
Stir fry veggies
Use rice cookers, and cook rice on the stove.
Know what seasonings are "Typical" and have learned by trial and error which taste terrible together. (THAT, was uhm....educational. YUCK!)
Make soups from scratch, boil pasta, cook all kinds of eggs...the list goes on.

They even know what to look for on nutritional labels, even though they hate looking at them LOL

They all know how to use a washer and dryer, fold and put away clothes.
They all know how to clean, and WHY we dust/wipe/sweep/mop/vacuum/scrub toilets/sinks...yada yada
They do chores in the afternoon after school (They use their free time at school to do homework, pretty smart kids) it takes all of about 30 mins.

General pickup, and kitchen in the mornings before school. (10 mins)

The kids are 18b 16b 14g and 12g respectively.

My job as a parent, as I see it, is not just to love them and let them be themselves- It's also to show them how to care for themselves when they are grown. Cook, clean, balance a checkbook. What interest rates are, and how they affect you. What a FICO is, and how to raise it from the dreaded starting score. Grocery shop, look for deals. Put gas in the car, get the oil changed. Basic house maintenance, and what you use to repair things.

It IS harder the first few years to teach instead of do, since an adult has been doing it for such a long time it gets done faster and with much less fuss if they bite the bullet and do it themselves.

HOWEVER,
It does the child a disservice that isn't seen until they are 21-25 and on their own...calling mom and dad because they spent all their money again on going out. Bringing the laundry to the house because Mom does it better and they never got the hang of it. "Just stopping by" at dinner, because the only thing they know how to cook is Microwave ready.

Sorry, but after my kiddos are grown I want them to be proud of themselves and able to stand on their own two feet. My Dad did that for me, and it's an amazing feeling especially when half the others your age are still living like they are in moms basement.

[Arkansas Granny]

42. I wholeheartedly agree with your post. As a single, working mother of four

I raised my children very similar to what you describe. We were an equal opportunity household, so everyone learned to do all the chores. I figured that my job as a parent was to prepare my children to take care of themselves when they left home. I had 3 sons and 1 daughter and they could all put a simple meal on the table, do their own laundry (including ironing and simple mending), and how to handle money due to the fact that they all held summer jobs from the time they were 14-15 years old. I don't think it was an accident that they all turned out to be responsible adults.

[glowing]

52. The child is 4, but helps with everything... mainly because he's super curious

and thinks that if I or his father are attempting something, he ought to as well. I take the time to teach him what we are doing.. he even knows now what herbs we use out of the garden for our home-made spaghetti sauce (which is his favorite food) and is now patiently watching for his blueberries to turn blue so he can pick them (they are new this year to the garden). He's a great little boy, I wish I could give him more of my time because he's going already growing up too fast for me.. I just packed away another size of clothes for him.

[Mother Of Four]

62. It sounds like you're doing fine-

You're encouraging him to learn and watch the world around him. Don't fret too much, he's 4. He's got an active mind and an interest in you/hubby and what you do.

It's that time taken to teach, many people don't think that counts as quality time...but it does. It makes memories, good ones.

[EFerrari]

48. It is super tough. I remember being tired for years.

1975 to 1989 or so. Every second of my time was allocated just like every dime. If we didn't plan an hour at the park, we wouldn't get out at all. American family life has deteriorated right along with wages since the 70s. And, our workplaces have never really adapted to having mothers at work.

[glowing]

53. I feel you there.. Mrs. Obama is right, if you don't have a schedule, the fun

times and precious moments just don't have time. Our women in the workforce really has never been adjusted. For the amt of time that a child is in school, a parent ought be an hour less in work. The one thing that didn't happen when women demanded the right to achieve equal work status was to stand together with men workers and insist on better working rights.. That old saying is more than true about workers uniting and sticking together. Women should have sold the idea of less time during the week, but same wages along the way.. instead of corp. wedging the issue and creating fear in men not being able to bring home an good weeks pay.. same shit is happening now with immigration.. workers divided again for the peanuts big corp throws us.

[panzerfaust]

16. Priceless

Sadly, apparently there IS a market for this book.

It is hard for me to relate to though, having grown up taking care of the house, doing the finances, and ultimately (when my mother was committed by the state) supporting myself from age 15.

I worked 3 jobs in order to finish high-school. Which, in spite of the bullying by the jocks and the teachers, was something I knew that I must do if I was to realize my dream of going to college and becoming a doctor: Which I did do.

No thanks to schools, or, one is tempted to add, to my parents.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. Wow, good for you! eom

[Sanctified]

14. That is complete rubbish.

Parents only need to work 2 to 3 jobs to keep up a lifestyle not raise children, these parents need to cut back on their expenditures instead of skirting their responsibilities as parents and expecting the public educations system to do it. Besides if they need 2-3 jobs to keep up with Joneses they should have never had children to begin with.

[Hello_Kitty]

18. Oh you're going to get it now!

To many DUers, the right to procreate is sacrosanct. No matter how broke, crazy, or just a fuck-up in general you are, you should be able to pop out as many kids as you want and it's the "village" (IOW people without children) is obliged to pick up the tab.

[seabeyond]

19. such venom in your posts. n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

21. Hey, sometimes the villagers get a little annoyed, ya know?

Read the article in the OP. And then read the one I posted upthread about the book for coddled adult children. If you are not like the parents being described therein then chill out, because it's not about you.

[seabeyond]

24. bah hahah. me chillout? lol. ya. as i say..... n/t

[tbyg52]

36. Well, I'm torn about that.

Yes, I think only people who can afford children and are willing to put in the effort to raise them should have them.

But on the other end of the spectrum we have the involuntary sterilizations, etc.

Plus, who decides who is "fit"? Betcha those with money are never found "unfit."

I guess I think it's the difference between what should be frowned on and what should be legislated.

And the fact that I think that the "haves" think they have the right to control the "have nots."

Democracy is messy, but it's beats all the other alternatives that I am aware of.

[seabeyond]

20. i agree with your position the most.... so far.

this is what i see too. if you take what one generally is making (lower end pay scale) and then calculate all the expenses of working.... day care, gas, restaraunts, clothes, dry cleaning, ect.... the money brought home is often not even worth it, or even losing money

[JTFrog]

25. I didn't expect to be raising my kids on my own.

I didn't expect my husband to die. My parents died shortly after I had my first child. I had no "support system".

It took the two and a half jobs that I had just to pay for rent and food and the necessities for my kids. Cut back on expenditures like what? Daycare? Medical insurance? I guess the Joneses do have those things for their kids, don't they?

Of course I wish I had been resourceful enough to have found a better way and to have provided more for them. To be honest, I had always thought I'd be able to home school my kids until at least high school. Life has a funny way of getting in the way of ideals.

There are thousands upon thousands of individual situations that make your post complete rubbish. Be careful aiming that broad brush around will ya?

[The Gunslinger]

46. What would Limbaugh say??

That.

[glowing]

61. Call me stupid for trying to keep the lights on and the mortgage paid.

If you saw my home or my lifstyle, no one would call it keeping up with jack shit. Some areas are expensive to live in... and I started out life in debt from college.. fat lot of good that did.. science and Bush years just didn't mix well... I guess if it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any at all.

[mrs_p]

4. "disrespect public school teachers"??

i've only ever heard this from fundies. i don't understand how you can disrespect a whole group of mostly hardworking people. am i missing something?

[tbyg52]

6. Really. That's a heck of a sweeping statement. nt

[panzerfaust]

12. But not lightly made

I am just going to repost something that I have posted before ('cause I don't want to think about it this fine morning) and you can see that it is an opinion based upon 12 years of personal experience.

I remember:

- hours and hours of recesses and being kept after school to write on the board - usually it was "I will not talk in class"

- being sent to the vice-principal’s office early in my 'schooling' for having gotten caught with a comic book in reading class (where everyone else was, literally, reading "Dick and Jane"). When asked why I was there, I replied “For reading in reading class.” This resulted in his using the long paddle with the holes bored into it, instead of the usual, shorter paddle without holes. The length, and the holes, made the subsequent “whacks” just that more painful.

- the many succeeding vice-principals, shop and gym teachers who later taught me how to take such “whacks” without flinching, and certainly without crying (which, sadly, only made them hit harder and harder). Again, usually for talking in class.

- Mr Dunn, the English teacher who ridiculed me one day for my mispronunciation of “Colonel” when reading aloud. It was literally “You think you are so smart, and you can’t even read the simplest words to the class”, and he then led the class in laughing at me.

- Mr Cromerty who, after having asked students to submit weekly lists of their reading, called me in front of the class, read out my list for the week – at the time I was really into reading, and often read up to half a dozen books a day. He then launched into a long denunciation me for lying and “making things up”, and ended up sending me to, as usual, the vice-principal’s office. Fortunately, by then we lived in another state, one that did not permit teachers to beat students with wooden boards, and, instead, I was threatened with expulsion if I continued to lie about such things. I was like – “ask me something about any of these books”, he was like “one more word, and you are expelled”. Years later, when I went to take an Evelyn Wood Speed Reading course, the instructor would not accept me, because he said it would be a waste of my time and money as the intake screening showed that I already read faster than anyone he had fully trained.

I could go on, and on, but will just conclude with the fact that I graduated from high school with: a 1.2 grade point average (D), a 99th percentile verbal SAT score, 95th percentile in math, and an abiding contempt of public schools and of public school teachers.

I believe that public schools are simply institutions of socialization to cultural norms - that is to say institutions, of repression and regimentation - and believe they should be abolished. Education should be provided by parents, by private schools, and by free access to public libraries (which are the true beacons of light, and the most important – at least they were to me).

In my twelve years of suffering, I can recall only three teachers who were worthy of the name: one of English (Miss Erickson); one of German (Herr Guertler); and the other of History (a woman whose name sadly I cannot recall). These individuals were under paid. All of the rest were overpaid.

This extensive experience in public schools leads me to conclude that the mean, median, and modal public school teacher is a controlling, insecure, authoritarian, incurious, mentally limited individual who lacks the training, ability, and skill to actually do anything in life.

From this it follows that I wholly agree with GBS “He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches.”

Having reached the point in my life where I can no longer do, I am now, in my approaching dotage, teaching.

Oh, I still do, only not so much – and I am not, and do not expect to be, paid as much as when I was exclusively doing. But, as a teacher of medicine, I still work 12 months a year providing care, as well as teaching, in a university level one trauma center primarily doing cardio-thoracic, and transplant anesthesia and critical-care, where any brief lapse in ability, knowledge, or performance can, in a moment, quite literally cost someone their life, their mobility, or their ability to speak and to think.

Though the word “Doctor” comes from the Latin “docere” "to show, teach” by state law, if I wanted, I could not go and teach a high-school health or biology class since I am not an “educational professional” in the eyes of the public school system.

The product of public schooling is designed to be conformity, and the producers of this mindless conformity are public school teachers.

All I can say is …




… but, that is where I started.

Truly, close 'em down, says I.

Yet, in this instance, I do believe the 'educators' to be correct - they are being tasked to take on the most basic responsibilities of the parents. My favorite in the article "...arriving at school...unable to dress themselves, unable to use the toilet properly...unused to eating at a table," this from the UK middle-class!

[Fire1]

27. I DO understand and consequently vowed to be the exact

opposite of what and who you experienced. The discrepancy between your test scores and grades should have raised a flag to any discerning educator and should have been investigated. I also had crappy teachers who truly did a disservice to many students and never should have been allowed in a classroom. I can honestly say, however, that the mandatory quality and requirements for educating children has been elevated over the years.

[seabeyond]

28. step further with the few crappy teachers. how about a higher even in that and give to the child

to take responsibility and not be a "victim" of the crappy teacher but excel even with the crappy teacher. twice son had a crappy teacher. 2nd grade i had to fill in for the poor teacher cause she was all day with son. the other was his 7th grade math teacher. instead of son whining and complaining, i insisted that son deal with it in real world solution. his responsibility. so regardless of her poor job he had to find solutions to continue to learn, deal with teacher in respectful, not disruptive manner, and pull a good grade from the crappy teacher. didn't get to use her as an excuse.

i dont buy the crappy teacher as an excuse for failure.

just going off your posts, not really directed at you, but your post made me think of this.

[Fire1]

33. panzerfaust, clearly, overcame the obstacles of his

experiences despite the lack of parental support, as well, which I suspect had a lot to do with educators being allowed to run roughshod over him. That is inexcusable and is attributed to his disdain for teachers and the public school system.

[tbyg52]

35. I am so sorry.

I thought I had some bad experiences in Texas public schools, but I cannot hold a candle to your stories. Would you please PM me as to where this was, just out of my curiosity? I thought I was raised in the armpit of Texas, but you have me beat all to hell.

[checks-n-balances]

50. How many years ago were you in public school?

Do you really believe that teachers are the same as they were then?

In my experience, they most certainly are not.

Sorry for your unfortunate childhood school experiences, but you seem to be projecting onto the present the experience you had as a child. In other words:

Teachers were "bad" when you were in public school x number of years ago; therefore, public school teachers are still bad and not worthy of respect, even now. Furthermore, based on your own unfortunate educational experiences during childhood, all public schools should be abolished.

I remember a couple of teachers who were borderline abusive, but that was often acceptable practice around 40 years or so ago. Many things have changed since then, and teachers are not taught, or permitted, to approach students in those types of ways any more.

My mother had unnecessary surgery at the recommendation of an elderly OB-GYN who sincerely believed (as did his colleagues) that women should automatically have a hysterectomy after "a certain age". So does that mean that I believe that all OB-GYNs are quacks and shouldn't be trusted because of what some of them used to do 30-40 years ago?

To reiterate, I ask the question that occasionally gets asked on DU:

Project much??

Also, maybe you (like countless others, it seems) didn't realize that the Democratic Party has traditionally supported public education in the U.S. for decades?

[AngryAmish]

8. In my experience most teachers are pretty dumb

They work a lot less than others but think theirs is the most difficult job in the world. They have no idea what real work is. In general. Exceptions exist.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Gee, I thought being a parent was The Toughest Job In The World.

The way some of them act. But apparently, it's gotten really hard to teach your kids how to take care of themselves and be contributing members of society. Nope, all some parents seem to have time to do is plop the kids in front of TV or Play Station and stuff them full of fast food and ADD meds.

[Quantess]

32. And you know this, how?

What is the basis for your assertion?

I used to teach small groups in Elmentary schools, and small classes in High School. Two of those were the most miserable jobs of my life. I would rather sell used cars than work in a school again.

[LWolf]

34. Wow.

Are you sure you don't need the sarcasm smiley to go with that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. In my experience most people are pretty dumb

and teachers are largely much smarter than the rest of the population.

But that's just my experience.

[ulysses]

40. wow. that's a really stupid fucking opinion.

Just sayin'.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. There's a shot bus answer in here somewhere

Just sayin'. :hi:

[AwakeAtLast]

41. What do you do for a living?

I want to ridicule your line of work like you are ridiculing mine.

Spend one month in a classroom before you make such a statement.

Nice broad brush ya got there.

[ulysses]

43. wouldn't last five minutes in a classroom. n/t

[tbyg52]

66. Have you ever been a teacher? Or even sat in with one for an extended period of time?

I've worked in the "real world" and in public school teaching, on which fact I base my opinion that one can have no idea what a teacher's workday is really like unless one has done it oneself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. There are more than a few DUers

who openly despise public school teachers and post their criticism as often as they can. They refer to teachers as pedophiles and child abusers and a couple have been saying teachers should work at 7/11 and stay away from kids.

[tbyg52]

37. Really. At least the OP has a list of reasons to hate the public school teachers s/he had. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. That's a tough quandary. Deciding whether to hate parents or teachers worse.

I'm glad I am untroubled with such unsoluble problems.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. Be a competent parent and no one will hate you.

Let your kids run around like savages and don't discipline them or teach them how to function in society and you will be hated. If this doesn't apply to you, then the OP doesn't apply to you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. Competent teacher here and I am still hated

Some people just hate all ____________ because they are either ignorant and think all ______________ are like the one they had who they hated or they are just angry and take it out on the nearest available target.

[Hello_Kitty]

58. Well that's because teachers are convenient political scapegoats.

Whereas (most) parents are an important and valued constituency.

[The2ndWheel]

23. No more parents

We make it worth it to every adult to not have children. Give every adult a billion dollars, it would be cheaper than the current bailouts. Children are born through voluntary(and compensated) egg and sperm donations. Parenting can no longer be left to chance, when the result could be that the child may not have a chance.

Adults live in an adult world. They go to work, do whatever they choose to do, contribute to society, etc. There are no children in the adult world.

Children are raised in professionally run institutions across the country, all year long. One of the main problems everyone always brings up are the different environments different children grow up in, possibly not allowing every child to have the same chance as another. So put them all in a standardized environment that is molded to fit the needs of children. If any adult in society wants to be a parent, there will be plenty of parent jobs available at the institutions. It's pretty much adoption, except you get paid to do it, thus growing the economy.

There is no more parent/child relationship, unless you're a professional parent. There are no more parent/teacher relationships, so there won't be any bickering. Every child starts out in the same environment, they don't hear one thing from their teachers and possibly the exact opposite thing from their parents, and their first 18-22(or more) years are spent learning what they wll be required to know to be productive memebers of society. It's pretty much the world of today, just no bond between parents and children. There are adults, there are teachers, and there are children. No more parents.

[seabeyond]

26. to truly not have any diferential.... raised by robots all programmed to say exactly the same

interaction exactly the same. so for example the pretty child will not get a warmer answer than the ugly child.

[LWolf]

29. Thank you for being blunt and upfront about your disrespect

of me, and of my colleagues.

It seems a little contradictory, that you would notice that we don't control all the factors, including the biggest factors, involved in the outcome of public education, but still blame us for those outcomes.

Perhaps you could begin to look beyond the symptoms, and find the sources to blame.

Then we could heal our badly damaged system.

[DailyGrind51]

31. Finally, teachers are fighting back!

[Hello_Kitty]

59. As they should.

Teachers are getting a ration of shit for things that are not their fault and beyond their control.

[dysfunctional press]

44. parents play a bigger role in their child's education than ANY teacher...

and WAAAAY too many of them have no business having kids in the first place.

parents deserve most of the blame, or most of the credit- depending on how their kid turns out.

[Fire1]

45. So true. School does not end at three o'clock and there are no

vacations.

[dysfunctional press]

49. most kids don't spend all that much time with any one particular teacher...

and by the time they get to school in the first place, a lot of their personal 'programming' has already been defined as well.

[EFerrari]

47. Adults blaming other adults. That'll help!

[Hello_Kitty]

55. It's just pointing out a rather glaring hypocrisy

It's totally okay to trash teachers and the schools but don't you dare suggest that sainted parents may not be up to their jobs. At least teachers have to get training and a license.

[EFerrari]

56. Slamming parents doesn't generally result in making parents better.

Just as slamming public school teachers generally doesn't result in a better ed system for the kids.

[Hello_Kitty]

57. Yet oddly enough, no one is proposing 'merit pay' for parents.

What if we started basing those tax breaks parents get on outcomes? How about your children have to maintain a certain school attendence rate and/or GPA to get your tax credit on them?

[BooScout]

64. People should have a license to have children....

Anyone wanting children should be required to have a license. This is not just a problem limited to the UK.....I have seen that it's a problem in the US as well.

I also disagree with the OP's statement as well.....the "The only way to raise children is to spend time with them." I see plenty of parents here in the UK spend a lot more time with their children than some parents.........but their children are still wild as hell, rude, out of control, etc. Some people just have no business being parents no matter how much time they spend with their children. It's quality, not quantity.

[14thColony]

65. I agree with the gist of the article

Of course parents have the far greater impact on children, and thus bear the greater responsibility for their outcome. I want teachers to educate my children (in which I will help a lot), but it's not their responsibility to train them to act civilized if I have failed to do so.

My kids are lucky - they attend an excellent Church of England state primary school, where they are getting the sort of education you'd expect at a private school. Their teachers are concerned and involved, but more importantly it's obvious that 90% of the parents are very much involved in their kids' lives as well.

I compare that to some of the kids and 'parents' I sometimes encounter out and about, especially down in London - English so poor you can barely make out what they're saying, fathers and mothers acting aggressive, violent, rude, cursing non-stop at other people in front of their 3-4 yr old children in the streets, et cetera. And then it's a big mystery why junior is aggressive, violent, and rude when s/he shows up at school. Go figure.