U.S. and U.K. have no moral ground to stand on when complaining about video tapes of soldiers...

[Beelzebud]

After all the disgusting footage that we've showed of ourselves abusing Iraqi's, we have no room to bitch about this.

It makes me sick to see these two governments feign outrage over something they've been doing since the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001...

[Swede]

1. I havn't seen any video of captured Iranian soldiers denouncing Tehran's policies..

Link please?

[Beelzebud]

3. So it's ok to ignore the Geneva conventions as long as we're doing it?

Showing footage of Saddam's dead sons. Showing footage of POW's at Camp X-Ray. etc etc etc.

Don't be obtuse. You should know what the fuck i'm talking about.

[Swede]

8. Uniformed soldiers video released comes from the top.

Tehran is playing a dangerous game. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[wake.up.america]

11. Right. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I don't like when comparisons are made like this.

[RL3AO]

10. We showed video of sadam's sons ...

so people would actually believe they were dead.

[malaise]

19. You also showed the hanging of the President of a

sovereign state who you captured and executed after you illegally invaded and occupied his country. Don't speak to me about two wrongs making a right. Bush and Blair have long torn up the Geneva Convention.

The rest of the world is no longer prepared to allow you to do the wrong while bawling to others about conventions you violated.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. It was hard to tell exactly who those guys in Gitmo were, in orange jumpsuits and with sacks

over their heads. Some could well be Iranian.

[Beelzebud]

6. It doesn't even matter. We don't get to pick and choose when to follow the Geneva Convention...

[Balbus]

5. I'm sure he's referring to the Abu-whatever pics that he, along

with 90% of DU, demanded be shown to the public in the first place.

[myrna minx]

12. Let me guess, you thought Abu Ghraib

was frat house hazing. Exposing wrongdoing is one thing, but showing Saddam Hussein in his underpants, showing the corpses of his sons OR British sailors on television is against the Geneva COnventions. The Champion of the people, Alberto Gonzales decided that the Geneva Conventions no longer apply to the United States, so why is anyone surprised that other countries will discard them as well. I pray that these sailors are being treated humanely, but geez, it seems that the USA/UK is suffering from the Do as I say and not what I do syndrome.

[Beelzebud]

13. Thank you. When we ignore the Geneva Conentions, why should anyone else follow them?

[Swede]

14. Because it's the civilized thing to do.

Iran could have come out of this smelling like a rose. Instead it is resorting to brinkmanship.

[malaise]

20. Bullshit

Iran has learnt well from the world's bullies.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

24. ...

Why are you apologizing for an oppressive theocratic regime? I see no one on this board defending the actions of the United States or Great Britain in regards to their violations of the Geneva convention. These sailors should be released and returned home immediately.

[Spazito]

33. Ahhh, so I gather you are from the .....

"do as I say not as I do" school of thought. How.........interesting....or....maybe not. I don't have a problem with Iran holding the Brits if they were, and I believe they were, in Iranian waters. I suggest the Brits have less to worry about re their treatment than the Iranians being held in Iraq and that, in itself, is a sad irony, imo.

Edited to add: Any bets on who will be released first, the Brits held in Iran or the Iranians being held in Iraq? I bet it will be the Brits.

[myrna minx]

22. I know. I hope these sailors are being treated humanely.

:cry:

[Balbus]

15. No, I just think it's damn hypocrital to be crying foul

because the public wasn't being exposed to those pics. And now after those pics were exposed DU is, again, crying foul because the public saw them. that sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of thing = hypocritical.

[RL3AO]

18. Yep.

If the Gov't didnt release the Abu pics, they would get bad press. When they did release the pics, all of a sudden they were getting bad press.

[myrna minx]

21. People were crying foul, because Abu Ghraib was about to become yet another cover-up.

The photos weren't released to the public for propaganda purposes, they were released to expose a wrongdoing, but I do see you point. I guess I took issue with what I read as a blythe dismissal of the horrors of Abu Ghraib with your "Abu Whatever". Sorry for lobbing the sarcasm.

[uppityperson]

2. Indeed.

[Beelzebud]

7. From the responses I've gotten already, I'm wondering WTF happened to DU...

We don't give a shit about holding ourselves to a higher standard than fucking Iran?

[ejbr]

17. Beelzebud! Are you still not getting what your detractors are saying?!

Brown people are less important than white people, so they can be humiliated on the airwaves, but not whites. They do sound like repug trolls, but some "liberals" also have a skewed vision of righteousness.:spank:

And don't let them distract you from your initial, and relevant, point: The west should show no concern over the exhibition of our prisoners, since that is our modus operandi also. BUT, there is a difference!! Apparently, the Iranians treat their prisoners MUCH, MUCH better than we treat ours. Good job!

[pampango]

27. No one has defended our country's behavior in terms of its

treatment of prisoners. Why do you claim that no one here wants to hold ourselves up to a high standard?

It seems to me that you are resisting holding Iran up to any standard at all. Our government is hypocritical to complain about Iran's treatment of its British prisoners, but posters at DU are not unless they defend our government's treatment (which I have not seen much of).

[ejbr]

9. Exactly!

And instead of just saying "oops, we're sorry", these nincompoops want to play tough while 15 of their citizens are being held against their will. When the female sailor wrote that the policies of the U.K. and the U.S. have sacrificed them, I bet she was in agreement with her jailers then!

[malaise]

16. Bingo

Same knife stick goat, stick sheep.

[MindPilot]

23. It's not like the US or British troops ever set foot on soverign soil

and took prisoners away to another country. We are SO much better than they are. :sarcasm: -- just in case it may be necessary.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

25. So just because we violated the law

that makes it right for other countries to do so?

[Amonester]

29. The plutocRats violated the law because they think they need to

to steal their oil to keep our currency afloat. :sarcasm:

The Iranians have no right to violate the law because they don't need to rob our oil or any other stuff we own (except for nukes... and crazy unuseful stuff like that). :crazy:





NO BLOOD FOR OIL!

[MindPilot]

30. Of course not.

But if you make your living stealing cars, you don't have much room to complain when your car gets stolen.

We are reaping what we've sown. (I use "we" in the most general sense.)

[Bake]

26. We should have seen this coming when we decided the GC were "quaint"

OP is right, we HAVE lost the moral high ground. This is EXACTLY why we were so vehement in our opposition to BushCo when it decided to disregard the Geneva Conventions.

Regardless, we were wrong then, and Iran is wrong now. I bitched about it when "WE" did it, so I'm entitled to bitch about it now when Iran does it.

Bake

[indepat]

28. In the real world, what goes around comes around

[cali]

31. Of course, you're right

And it's what so many experts (and just regular folks) tried to explain to admin when they tossed the parts of the Geneva convention that they didn't like out the window, and embraced torture. Now they're getting some blowback, and they don't have any moral ground left to stand on.

Doesn't justify what the Iranians are doing, of course. Just as the numerous excuses bushco gave, don't justify what what the U.S. is doing.

[Zodiak]

32. It is not surprising that Iran is doing this

We showed them the proper way to act when we invaded their neighbor....while that neighbor was following all of the rules.

I have a feeling that any country that is getting the saber rattled at them by US/Britain will keep in mind the fact that Saddam was obeying the UN when he was invaded.

Yes, it is wrong for Iran to do this, but to them, it is a matter of self-preservation. Why should they follow rules when their opponents do not? I'm sure there is an element of this mindset in Iran, and part of the blame lies with the US.

The bottom line is: I don't want another damned war, and I want my country back.

[slipslidingaway]

34. Remember this...

snip>>

Defense Department Invokes Geneva Conventions to Withhold Torture Photos (4/29/2005)

"Through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, the ACLU and the New York Civil Liberties Union have sought the release of photographs and videotapes, in addition to documents, that would shed light on the systemic abuse of detainees held by the United States overseas. The Defense Department has refused to turn over photographic evidence, stating that to do so would violate the government's obligations under the Geneva Conventions.

In its reply brief, the ACLU argued that the release of photographs would not infringe the personal privacy of the detainees depicted if all identifying details were redacted. The ACLU also submitted declarations from leading international law experts stating that releasing the photographs would be consistent with the Geneva Conventions. One expert noted that photography exposing inhumane conditions at German and Japanese concentration camps played a powerful role in the historical development of the Geneva Conventions themselves.

The ACLU also questioned the sincerity of the government's commitment to the Geneva Conventions, pointing to previous declarations from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that the Conventions do not apply to detainees held at Guantánamo Bay or in Afghanistan.

snip>>

"The Geneva Conventions were intended to protect prisoners, not to provide governments with a basis for withholding evidence that prisoners have been maltreated," said ACLU attorney Jameel Jaffer. "It's disgraceful that the Defense Department is attempting to contort the Conventions in this way."

not sure if this link will work
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:90nnwV2d9DwJ:www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm%3FID%3D18156%26c%3D206+aclu+%2B+torture+photos+%2B+release+%2B+horton&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

[Emit]

35. You can edit your post to get your link to work by

checking the box that asks, "No Emoticons? Check if you DO NOT wish to use emotion icons in your message"

[slipslidingaway]

36. Thank you! :)) Maybe it will work now. n/t