Naked, hands chained to the ceiling for days without end, shitting and pissing on themselves

[ThomWV]

http://www.nybooks.com/icrc-report.pdf

We chained the hands of detainees to hooks on the ceilings in their cells. We let them hang there for three and four days at a time, arms wrenched from their joints. It was kept purposefully cold with the overuse of air conditioners while the detainees, who were kept naked (sometimes for months at a time) were doused with cold water. They shit and pissed on themselves, one was reported to have slept while dangling from his manacled and bloody wrists.

This was done at the hands of employees of the United States of America's Central Intelligence Agency, acting under orders from the President of the United States, with assurances from the Attorney General of the United States that it was legal.

Read the god dam report. We did this. We. Us. The United States of America. Who is in jail for this? Where are the investigations (evidence gathering)? Where are the fucking trials?

I do not care how many times I have to repost this to get it read. It is the most disgraceful thing to take place in this country in my lifetime. It is unethical by every standard known to man, it is illegal on every corner of the earth. It can not go unchallenged.

[JuniperLea]

1. Proud first req...

Yes, this is disgusting and we should all be banging the drum for justice.

[L. Coyote]

12. The leaked Report's important implications is just beginning to sink in

For one thing, didn't Bush have this? When?
Did Congress get it? Who got it? When?

I am amazed at how effectively this news, the leaked Red Cross report and torture tape docs, has been kept marginalized.
I've tracked it here: CIA Has 3,000 Docs on Torture Tapes - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5303329

The story is just now building some momentum. Some things cannot be ignored. Some cause massive reactions, if they can break the media barriers!

[ThomWV]

29. Ask yourself - did the Senate and House Intelligency Committees get this Report?

Because if they got a copy of this report then every single one of them is complicit and should be tried and imprisoned as well.

I intend to talk to Rockefeller's Office about this today.

This will not stand. God dam it, it just won't.

[L. Coyote]

45. Hello? Is that "complicit" in knowing or leaking?

We are all complicit if a US citizen, and we are all complicit as human family.

Being briefed about an investigation and secret report is not a criminal offense.

However, they were required by law to remain silent.
Now, they can talk about what is in print.
The leaker does Congress members a favor, allowing them to break silence.

[ThomWV]

61. How can there be a law that prevents a person from disclosing lawbreaking

It is preposterous to say that any member of Congress - or any other American - can be precluded from disclosing lawbreaking by virtue of a law. Up is not down, tomorrow does not come before yesterday, the universe is not contracting. And tell me who - in which universe - would a Senator who broke the news that we were illegally torturing prisoners be charged with breaking a law that demanded silence and tried for it? Rockefeller tried this defense - it was beyond cowardly and it is also the reason I will never vote for that Son and grand son and great grand son and great great grand son of a bitch again and have written his office to let him know. It is also why I actively discourage others from voting for him and will continue to do so as long as he runs. Filthy fucking coward, that's all he is.

[rhett o rick]

92. I don't think Congress will look upon this as a favor. Congress is complicit , the "law" doesn't

get them out of their moral obligations.

If Congress was briefed, they had an obligation to inform the President to stop or they would expose him, law or no. He works for us, they work for us. It's their laws, it's our laws.

[pnwmom]

59. They should be tried and imprisoned because they didn't break the law and

leak the report? Are you aware that the consequence would be to DISCOURAGE all future investigations? On the basis that legislators are better off keeping their eyes shut less they be held to be as guilty as the real criminals?

YES, we should be outraged. YES, strong action is needed -- but against members of the Bush administration who were actively involved in this not against the members of Congress who followed the law.

That said, I'm grateful to whoever was brave enough to leak the report.

[L. Coyote]

83. Some are on a war path against Congress.

Just asking "Who knew what when?" brings out the nooses. :rofl:

Meanwhile, we have no idea when the report was given to Bush, and if he lied to Congress and hid it!

We just know this report was "around" BEFORE it was leaked, and we know we still need to define "around."

[JuniperLea]

65. I agree!

:applause:

[HillbillyBob]

17. Some of us have been calling for arresting ( * ) and darth C(and minions)

since the election theft of 2000. We were sure that this stuff was happening even before the War of Terrorism even started.
Some of us that have done the research and follow the $ going back a few generations were sure this is where our fascist 'leaders' were headed. I was even told by Holocaust survivors and former federal employees of the horrors our government was visiting on people that our corporates were raiding for resources or access to resources. I had even done a lot of research in the library of congress, and read plenty of alarming records, records which I could not copy, or found to be 'classified' or missing when I returned to recheck and verify.
We witnessed our ballots being taken from our polling place late the night of the 2000 election and being dumped into truck mounted shredders. Could not have been office records or anything like that as it was in a park gymnasium , no office space there to have anything like that.
When we spoke up, I found that I was on the no fly list when I needed to travel home to see my dying gramma for the last time. We got strange messages in our voicemail and emails that basically said stfu or else, anonymously.
We left Florida and some of these things still went on. When I tried to copy and print said emails I could not get it to work. I have never seen anonymous emails that could not be traced somehow.
Then one weekend we went to visit MIL , when we got home the doors were standing open and the house had be ransacked, nothing missing, there was even cash in the dresser drawer, it was still there but had been moved, every book in my book cases had been moved, files in the file cabinet disordered..
The neighbors said black crown victorias with government tags were in front of the house for a couple of hours and men in suits.. We took that as a warning stfu or else, a bit more serious warning.
Not to be flip, but this is all nothing new, but it sure is something that should be stopped and those responsible punished. I m not a big punishment fan, but some times punishment is very much in order.
While we were calling for accountability in 2002/3/4/5 we were called unpatriotic, unAmerican, traitors...when the real traitors were the ones that had stolen our government. I voted for President Obama, but I voted for Kucinich in the primaries. I hope for the best, and will continue to bitch and snarl, Obama really lost my respect when he vote for the damned FISA act, I want to see the UnPatriot Act repealed. So are we crazy now???

[JuniperLea]

64. I've been among that group...

But I don't think the Patriot Act should be dismantled until Obama has had sufficient time to dismantle and set right all the bastardly deeds of BushCo as they relate to the Patriot Act. He may need the extra power this provides.

[ooglymoogly]

80. Excellent rant.....being one of the some of us nt.

[Pastiche423]

103. Kudos to a great post!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[L0oniX]

2. Now if they did that to a dog or a cat you'd see a national revolt.

5th rec ...off to the greatest.

[DemReadingDU]

34. Wish there was abuse to a dog or cat in that report

That would be the section highlighted on the nightly news.
:(

[defendandprotect]

96. Don't think so . . .

We're slaughtering upwards of 12 million animals a day in America -- for "food" . . .

Much treatment of animals long the lines of processing "food" are torture.

I watched a brief video recently of a horse being killed -- a long hammer like

object came out with a nail in it to fire into the horse's head. The first one

hit, but didn't kill.

As many point out, abuse of animals has a lot to do with attitudes about abusing

humans.

Remember Bush and the exploding frogs, for instance ---!!!

[Fire1]

102. Seriously doubt it. Not even then.

[JohnyCanuck]

3. K&R n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

4. K&R

x(

[SpiralHawk]

5. "Jesus made us do it. Smirk." - Republicon Homelander Crusaders

[EFerrari]

6. Five years today since Peggy and Art Gish helped expose Abu Ghraib.

Amy interviewed them today on her program.

[gratuitous]

48. National treasures, both of them

I hope they're in San Diego in June. I want to be sure to thank them again, personally.

But I saw an interview with Nancy Pelosi. She says that this is "very, very important" right now. She's waiting for yet another report to come out in June. By which time, I'm guessing that she will not think it's quite so important.

[EFerrari]

52. She's still waiting for the Petraeus report, too, to hang Bush by his own benchmarks.

:eyes:

[montanacowboy]

7. Until the Zombies in this country

are made to watch this on their TeeVee sets instead of Wrestlemania or American Idol; until the great news media brings this information into every goddam living room every night of the week, no one no where will be held responsible;

The Viet Nam war ended because people saw it live on their teevees - that's way back when we actually had a press corps. Now we have a President who wants to look forward instead of backwards and even beef up the State Secrets Act. Gitmo is still operating and no one, not Democrat or Repukian gives a good rat's ass about some poor bastards that we tortured.

What will it take? nothing short of general strikes that shut the country down - not going to happen.

[L. Coyote]

15. VIDEO: Rachel Maddow Show: CIA Black Sites Torture Exposed = Danner

Pass on this one:

From The Rachel Maddow Show April 7, 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc_NziwvMvo

[lonestarnot]

130. The Red Cross Torture Report: What it Means by Mark Danner

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22614

[Fire1]

107. The Vietnam War ended also due to the frequent footage

of Washington Protests.:hippie:

[Iwillnevergiveup]

138. Montana.....

I totally agree with you on the intentionally uninformed population in the U.S. Heck, 3 or 4 of my college-educated friends depend on me for their political news/info...guess they're too busy.

I'm at the point where I want just a little taste of something good that's going somewhere. I'm sick at heart that waaaay too much Bush leftover mess is so evident (wiretapping, Gitmo, Geitner, Summers, and of course, this horrible report) to name but a few. I was proud of President Obama in his first foray overseas and the warm receptions he got. Jackeens' photos were duly appreciated.

But I feel a steady, persistent undercurrent of fear that opportunities are gonna slip away from this President to work as a force for good. We've got to have single payer health care in this country. Yet here we have Howard Dean working his behind off on the fringes instead of being an active, valued part of the Obama administration. Why should DFA, PDA and other groups be facing such an uphill battle on this issue?

I get that these are all huge, complex, time-consuming issues. And they will take some time. But for that one little taste: could the Don Siegelman matter be fairly and finally resolved so that we can get a brief glimpse of what justice looks like? I'm seeing precious little of it these days, and a resolution in Alabama would be mighty fine. Come on, Mr. Holder.

[Djinn]

148. they didn't see much of the work

of the Operation Phonenix sadists. While the media was better then they certainly weren't showing the big picture in mainstream media. Very few Americans even today know anything about that little torture program.

The protests against Vietnam were not exactly the main cause for it's end, the clear indication that despite the deaths of 4 million of their people the Vietnamese were never going to stop fighting is what ended it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

8. If another country does this there is an uproar!

why weren't questions asked by congress. Tt would seem that the executive branch purposely covered this up hiding it from congress.

[EFerrari]

9. When was the last time another country had a torture program that spanned the globe?

[ThomWV]

13. 1940's

[EFerrari]

18. That would be my guess, too.

[RiverStone]

77. Clearly, we violated the Geneva Convention for treatment of prisoners

Will those responsible from within Shrub's administration ever appear before the International Criminal Court at The Hague?

War criminals!

[seemslikeadream]

10. They WILL pay for this, somehow some way THEY WILL PAY

Do the right thing Mr. President, do not remain silent, silence is complicity and the world is watching, the WORLD.

[Fire1]

108. Not.

[amyrose2712]

11. Not the greatest of the greatest???

:sarcasm:


Thanks for posting and keep posting. I am trying to spread it around too.

[acmavm]

14. Oh hey, this is just the tip of the iceberg. If we could just get our

hands on the pictures from Abu Graib that the courts told the bush** admin to release, the ones that supposedly showed rape and torture of children, then this country would really have something to be ashamed of.

Isn't it strange that the Obama admin. hasn't followed the law and released them? Maybe someone should ask them what the deal is.

[rhett o rick]

94. Maybe we need a truth commission (sarcasm intended). nm

[cali]

16. hold. them. accountable.

period.

[shadowknows69]

19. I just saw a striking movie you should check out Thom

It's called "Blindness" on DVD now.

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1050236/>

It's a really brutal movie really and, I think, a major allegory of a lot of the horrors committed by this country in recent years, among other things, you can read a lot into it.

[Hubert Flottz]

20. Now Now...

George W. Bush "prays EVERY DAY" and he claims that "God" is on his side...General Jerry Boykin even claims that "God" put W in the White House.

Mr. Obama is a church going man too, would he let someone slide, who had done anything "Immoral"?????

[Pastiche423]

105. Yes

[DavidDvorkin]

21. No one will be punished for this

Or at most, a few at the lowest levels will be made scapegoats.

[rateyes]

22. There was a time in this country when such a report would be printed in full

in the Washington Post or New York Times. Remember the Pentagon Papers? Why aren't these newspapers running a series of articles, printing this report??

[Iwillnevergiveup]

139. A couple of weeks ago

I looked at James Spader in "The Pentagon Papers." Yes, I remember my country back then - hardly recognizable now. Excellent movie that captured the political climate in general at the time.

[democrank]

23. S-I-C-K

Hold them accountable. ALL of them.

[Canuckistanian]

24. K&R

[chill_wind]

25. MSNBC alone has 212,000 article results indexed under the word torture.

Probably half of them are from previously leaked Red Cross and ACLU documents, whistleblowers and other human rights groups. We've had YEARS of reporting.

"CIA Torture Coverup"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5414253&mesg_id=5414543

OF COURSE Congress knows. Americans know. The world knows. We've KNOWN.
And we just keep restoring the protectors and enablers of it all to places of power again and again.

[KoKo]

50. And where is the Outrage from our Christian Religious Leaders on Good Friday...

about this? Some like the United Church of Christ, Unitarians and Quakers spoke up...but were drowned out long ago. I belive the Arch-Bishop of the Episcopal Church wrote something about it years ago when we first had the reports.

It's an abomination that this has gone on and that Dick Cheney can still come out and say we "didn't torture," and someone like Rush Limbaugh can still say we should do it.

Those who participated and condoned this are no better than the criminal mass killers who are serving time now or who were executed for their past deeds.

[chill_wind]

144. KoKo..

I won't even pretend to try to say I understand the passivity or the mindset..

[Hubert Flottz]

26. I guess Obama will have to look forward and not back when

American troops are someday subjected to the same treatment..."We chained the hands of detainees to hooks on the ceilings in their cells. We let them hang there for three and four days at a time, arms wrenched from their joints. It was kept purposefully cold with the overuse of air conditioners while the detainees, who were kept naked (sometimes for months at a time) were doused with cold water. They shit and pissed on themselves, one was reported to have slept while dangling from his manacled and bloody wrists."

And the people doing this to our troops someday will say, "It's the same things your government did to our people and your government never even looked back at it! Your highest government officials approved it then and have apparently approved of it and swept it under the rug ever since!"

Not getting to the bottom of this, draws a bead on every American service man or woman who is ever put at risk of being captured again by a foreign power. Will no one in Washington support the troops? Will no one in Washington support the Geneva Convention or the rule of law?

America is no longer in a position to bang the drum about "Human Rights" without rightfully being looked upon as hypocrites, with this skeleton in our closet.

[shraby]

27. Time to hammer your congresscritters! I just did.

[ThomWV]

31. Rockefeller's Office is closed today, I just left one very long message.

[Beam Me Up]

28. nobody cares because these terrorists were responsible for 9/11

and may be up to something worse, an even more deadly terrorist attack. We have to torture the truth out of them to save American lives.



Now, I'm not going to use the sarcasm smiley -- because I think that is precisely what a lot of people do believe to be true -- even here at DU. The only difference being that most DUers espouse a belief in the rule of law and that torture is unlawful and therefore shouldn't be applied to anyone, including "terrorists".

Where I'm coming from is a completely different perspective. The way I see it, they needed to torture these patsies to get them to confess to something they had nothing what so ever to do with: 9/11. Oh, I'm not saying there aren't real terrorists that might wish us harm -- no doubt they do exist and even more plentifully now than before. If you're going to have a "war on terror" that goes on indefinitely, then you have to indefinitely recreate the enemy in order to have it. But when we go back to that seminal event and look at it closely, what we find are WAY TOO MANY so called "coincidences" -- not to mention a growing pile of evidence that the truth of 9/11 is NOT known at all. Far from it.

So long as the very real questions of 9/11 are kept in the "conspiracy theory" box where they can be easily discounted by "intelligent" people, neither the peace movement nor any other social justice movement dealing with issues brought into play as a result of the "terrorist attack" narrative of 9/11 (such as torture and illegal wire tapping) will EVER get anywhere. Meanwhile 9/11 is an Achilles Heel that waits to be exposed and exploited. The evidence is more than sufficient to demand a full inquiry. But no one in a position of authority wants to touch it because of where it leads -- directly into the heart of the national security state, military industrial complex, itself.

So, here's where I am. I'm not interested in hearing you cry out about torture or the other appalling injustices of this so called "war" unless you're willing to look into the heart of the beast that created them and see how deeply their tentacles have infected our whole society. The criminality that made this possible and keeps it out of the reach of the rule of law will NEVER let us go until we confront it for what it is. Any attempt to cut off one arm or another of the Octopus will not stop the assault. You have to identify the core of the corruption and you have to expose it for all the world to see. Only THEN will you get the outrage necessary to bring about the real, substantial changes necessary to bring the system back under lawful control.

[robertpaulsen]

35. To paraphrase Bugliosi, torture is a footnote to the real crime: MURDER.

Unfortunately, Bugliosi's perspective seems to be hampered by taking the Official Conspiracy Theory of 9/11 at face value. Otherwise, he might add an additional 3,000 Americans on top of the 4,200+ American troops that the Bush cabal murdered in Iraq.

edited to add this link: MURDER Trumps Torture Says Bugliosi - an Interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5415961

Thanks for continuing to shine a light on the big picture, Beam Me Up. I love your signature; I haven't read Scott's Road to 9/11, but I'm a big fan of Deep Politics and the Death of JFK. It really opened my eyes to how the Octopus really does its dirty work.

[Beam Me Up]

55. Thanks, RP

Yes, Scott has a grasp of how the "octopus" operates and has been revealing it for a long while now. I first met him in 1995.

I'm demoralized that people who ought to know better, such as Bugliosi, but even more people like Zinn and Chomsky, apparently haven't been willing to look at either the physical or circumstantial evidence that clearly indicates what we're told is true can not possibly be true. I've just about given up hope. I can no longer take the "left" seriously as a genuine opposition force. If we're not willing to look at the facts, follow them to where they lead, and if we're not willing to expose those facts and use them as a framework for building a revised social map with new political strategies -- then what the hell are we doing?

It is appalling. On one hand, there are so many intelligent people here on DU. They "get" that the bush cabal are criminals -- but on the other hand they don't seem to understand FROM WHAT their real power -- the ability to evade ANY consequences for their openly criminal behavior -- is derived. Cheney and Rumsfeld were deeply embedded in the national security state apparatus from the Reagan administration onward. PNAC called for revolutionary change and was handed it on a bloody platter and everyone from politicians to media to academics, right on down the line, have been kowtowing to them ever since. It is beyond disgusting.

I can barely live in this world any more. I go to a conference or meeting or what have you and whenever the "war on terror" comes up I want to scream -- but of course that would make me look like one of "those" tin-foil hat wearing loonies. People are so ill informed it is maddening. But, of course, that is precisely it: WE were the targets on 9/11. Shock and awe.

[Ghost Dog]

100. Well said. n/t

[Ghost Dog]

152. I'd like to add, I like the "Octopus" metaphor.

I understand that, to deal with an Octopus, the best method is to go for the eyes (TV?), and through there, straight into the brain behind the tentacles.

And, I'd like to remind robertpaulsen and most others (yeah, I know, "3000 Americans" is a resonant meme), that not all those persons murdered that day were US cits.

[barbtries]

68. well put n/t

[leftofthedial]

30. But the Obama wants to look forward, not back.

He needs the votes of torture-approvers in Congress to get his next trillion-dollar giveaway to Wall Street approved!

We can't waste precious political capital going after torturers! They were all terrorists after all. Some of those torturers still work at the CIA. What if they started telling the Obama little fibs in their intelligence reports? They could make him look bad. We *needed* the valuable information those prisoners gave us.

Besides, this is really no worse than the typical weekend at a frat house during pledge week.

:sarcasm: :puke: :sarcasm: :puke:
I'm disgusted.

[pleah]

32. K&R

:(

[malaise]

33. Someone must pay

K & R

[leftstreet]

36. K&R

[xiamiam]

37. hard to read it ...painful to think that people can be so brutal...i will never understand..ever..nt

[Overseas]

38. Why not appoint a Special Prosecutor?

I keep wondering why President Obama and AG Holder don't appoint a special prosecutor to investigate this and other Bush Gang crimes. That would enable the administration to continue "moving forward" on other fronts while addressing the serious violations of U.S. and international law committed by the Bush-Cheney team.

But I also remember, during the disgraceful days of Ken Starr's hounding of President Clinton, wondering whether Republicans were trying to sour the American public on appointing Special Prosecutors because they had someone really horrible in the wings and wanted to be sure that president wasn't prosecuted for his crimes.

And here we are.

There was talk at that time about how polarizing and distracting it was to have the Special Prosecutor hounding the president. And it was. But mostly because there was no "there" there-- prosecution for political gain rather than due to evidence of criminal behavior.

But we still hear about how prosecuting these huge crimes against humanity would be just too polarizing and would be perceived as political in nature. But there is very strong evidence that crimes were committed. This is no little real estate deal.

And yet those same arguments we heard tested out during Ken Starr's disgraceful hounding of President Clinton are being trotted out as though they would apply in the case of prosecuting an administration for major crimes, domestically and internationally.

[ThomWV]

40. As far as I know there is no law against Polarization, but there is against torture.

Let the polarization begin.

[Overseas]

41. Here Here !! //nt

[tblue37]

82. Same thing with impeachment. nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

39. And yet WE, the little people, are held to every comma of every legal technicality.

'Splain THAT to me, Lucy.

The law is GONE. GONE. Sold off.

Yet we act like it's still there... but only for little people of course.

I agree with you totally. Prosecutions for torture, for abusing our civil rights, and for financial crimes. Otherwise, the whole law in its entirely is just another fraud.

[Joey Liberal]

42. Why no trial? nt

[ColbertWatcher]

43. "Who is in jail for this?" Good question. k+r, n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

44. I read a little...too awful to read more. :-(

kick and rec

[tomm2thumbs]

46. the way to read that report is to picture it as happening to OUR soldiers - THEN read it

think...

[Blackhatjack]

47. It is ILLEGAL, Unconstitutional, Violates the Geneva Convention, and Morally reprehensible...

... and exactly the type of prisoner treatment that was prosecuted at the Nuremberg Trials.

There is no gray area here ... this clearly crossed the line, and American citizens who read of this conduct know that this was carried out in their names.

So far the Government has taken the approach that protecting the perpetraters from prosecution is more important than holding them responsible for what they have done.

[ThomWV]

53. In three short sentences you have precisely summed it up.

There can be no excuse what so ever for the President to not personally step in and see that this is fully disclosed, those who did it, order it, allowed it, or in any way assisted in the process are tried by a legitimate court of law and face what consequences as they may.

[Uncle Joe]

49. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, ThomWV.

[Solly Mack]

51. K&R

[tomm2thumbs]

54. 'Read the Report' is right - pure sadism and a deep undermining of America

Now, how can we expect OUR captured soldiers will EVER be given reasonable treatment ever again when this crap happens under the direct noses of U.S. authority? This goes against everything good for the safety and health of our own military fighters. That alone should incense the American people.

[Stinky The Clown]

56. I am nom 99 .... please make this a three digit thread - AND READ THE FUCKING REPORT

[inna]

57. rec # 101. thank you. NT

[Dystopian]

58. KandR

I could only scan a little...we've known this for years. I can't read of any more suffering.
Obama knows.
He knows.
This fact sickens me....he's not doing anything.


peace~

[Joe Fields]

60. Thom, I could not agree with you more than I already do.

I'll tell you what bothers me equally as much, and that is that there is EVEN A DEBATE, RIGHT HERE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY, that this is kosher, acceptable.

What have we been worn down to become?

[Warren Stupidity]

62. Error: You've already recommended that thread. nt.

[barbtries]

63. i read it

cover to cover. i wish had the money to print it up many times and then send it on to president obama, every member of congress, the hague, every international court, etc.

and i want to know the names and the dispositions of the many people responsible for these series of travesties. we already know the names at the top: bush, cheney, rumsfeld, etc. but who are the people who implemented these dastardly plans? were they brainwashed into thinking that what they did was somehow the right thing to do? how do they sleep?

i am crushed by this report. i knew it, and yet. just crushed. this is supposed to be my country, the united states of america, a country of, for and by the people. who are these people?! they are not my people.


i remember a sound bite of a hearing where rice discussed "extraordinary rendition." why is she not in prison? i could never stand to watch an entire hearing with her just as i could not stand to sit through an entire speech by gw, or an interview with cheney. they make me too sick.

there must be action taken - prosecutions. you are so, so right: it can not go unchallenged.

:cry:

[calimary]

66. Kick. This was done in OUR name, on OUR time, and with OUR money.

DUer Gratuitous once said it best. I'm paraphrasing - "I paid for this with my tax money. I want to see what I got for my money. Show me what I got for my money."

[muffin1]

67. Fucking disgusting

The mother fuckers need to be put on trial right this fucking minute.:evilfrown:
The world needs to see that we hold our own to the standards we profess to hold. Fuck.

[winyanstaz]

69. They also raped women and kids, water boarded and beat people to death..

Where is the investigations? Where are the trials? Why are not the main stream news sources up in arms about this? Why is the department of justice failing to do its job? Why isn't Obama acting on these investigations? These are WAR CRIMES! This is shameful to Americas reputation and standing in the world. Something must be done.

[rambler_american]

70. K&R

:kick:
I want those responsible in orange jump suits and shackles.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

71. 1-202-456-1111

Call the White House.

Don't bother emailing, I've tried and either get dismissed or the 10 emails a day Obama gets don't seem to include issues he is bubbled to ignore.

[sui generis]

72. one minor point

being hung by the hands for more than 48 hours is going to result in congestive heart failure.

I hate to question the details but . . . and I certainly don't doubt human capacity for cruelty, but . . .

A verifiable 100% true story has more credibility than a disproved 99% true story.

[ThomWV]

75. I agree with you completely, so please accept my apology.

This is probably more a problem with how I worded the original post than it is a problem with the report. As it reads the method was used as much for sleep deprivation as for joy of the pain inflicted. I am sure their weight was on their feet and the manacles were more to hold them in to position than to support them. Otherwise it would have been essentially the same thing as a crucification with death in a day or so.

So please, to the extent the OP lacks credibility let the blame rest with my summation, not the report itself and accept my apology for introducing doubt.

[RiverStone]

73. Which branch of our government will hold itself accountable to investigate?

The Justice Dept.?

The AG's Office?

Who will seek to amend these war crimes?

[leftchick]

74. the only thing shocking is the public account

you are naive if you think this is the first time the us/cia has committed atrocities. We have since the genocide of native americans.

[ThomWV]

76. American Indians are not the subject at the moment

And in fact if I'm part of the conversation they never will be. My attention is focused on things in my lifetime if its OK.

Yes, I know full well this is not the first time Americans have committed atrocities. I would suggest however that this is the first time we have done it systematically and with the knowing and willing engagement of entire branches of Government (Defense, States, Intelligence, and Justice) in lawbreaking and had it lead by the White House. That is a remarkable thing. You have seen my remarks.

[leftchick]

79. School of the Americas?

ring any bells? I am not criticizing your point, just the fact that torture has been so well documented as the vast majority of cia ops have not, does not mean it is worse than anything else done in our names that are war crimes. We have plenty to be ashamed of. In my lifetime the slaughter of literally millions of Vietnamese kinda clued me in that we suck.

[Djinn]

149. then you would utterly and completely wrong

I would suggest however that this is the first time we have done it systematically and with the knowing and willing engagement of entire branches of Government (Defense, States, Intelligence, and Justice) in lawbreaking and had it lead by the White House. That is a remarkable thing.

It's probably easier for you to think that but officially sanctioned torture has a very long pedigree.

[rhett o rick]

85. Now is as good a time as any to stop this shit. nm

[me b zola]

78. K&R

[hootinholler]

81. Where are the investigators?

This looks like a crime to me



and this one



I wonder how long this guy had to wear this? (How apropos for Good Friday!)



Yeah these are from the Abu Ghraib collection, but from the report, the techniques were universal.

-Hoot

[rhett o rick]

84. Does anyone have a compresensive of what we know to date? nm

[ThomWV]

86. Read the report.

[rhett o rick]

91. I did. But this is only a small part of the overall program. How many people were tortured?

how many died from the torture? What countries helped with these atrocities?

[ThomWV]

99. I wish I knew - and had the proof in hand

We know that some died at our hands and none of them is mentioned in the report. Clearly it goes farther than we have yet seen and sadly to say that in the end death trumps torture so there is much worse to be seen. Who knows if we will ever see it though?

[chill_wind]

122. MANY Deaths, Many 'Ghost detainees' kept hidden from Red Cross over MANY years (links)

At least 33 deaths by 2004-- that were admitted. How many since? Think of how they've undoubtedly minimized. (ie 3 torture tapes destroyed-- oh wait, there were hundreds..) As gruesome as it is what we know, contemplate their hiding the worst from the IRC, lawyers and other human rights groups... which we know they did. Like what the Red Cross was able to determine wasn't horrible enough.

MSM news inks here (hiding ghost detainees):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5423251&mesg_id=5425547

[rhett o rick]

137. There must be some organization that is investigating. And I don't mean government. nm

[chill_wind]

142. The Senate Armed Serices Committee itself released some of it.

Per the McClatchy news (first link in my links);

The minutes of the Guantanamo meeting were among 25 documents released Tuesday by Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., who chairs the Senate Armed Services Committee and is leading a probe of the origins of cruel treatment of detainees in President Bush's "war on terrorism."

"Documents confirm U.S. hid detainees from Red Cross"
June 17, 2008

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/41394.html

That Bi-Partisan Report came out in December.

The Int'l Red Cross reports of that nature (referenced in the article) and those of other human rights groups have been publicized as far back as 2004.

[davidwparker]

87. Is Obama going to prosecute, now? Or, will he continue to protect war

criminals.

At some point, you become guilty yourself.

[anaxarchos]

88. K & R

[Enthusiast]

89. K&R All this and now Bush cheerleaders

are calling President Obama a fascist, a commie and other terrible names. I just watched CNN almost cheer them on and never once question the logic.

[guyton]

90. three cheers for the Spanish Inquisition

... not the original one, the new current one into our "policies"

I think it might just shame the current admin into getting into gear.

Of course, the crimes of torture pale in comparison to the unbelievable destruction our "preemptive" and *illegal* war has done.

[npk]

93. Bush was told 3 times by the SCOTUS

That detainees had a right to challenge their confinement with petitions of habeas corpus. Each time Bush and his team ignored the SCOTUS and circumvented their authority. This has to be investigated and punished immediately.

[northernlights]

95. from this day forward, every email I get from the dem party or

congress or Obama's team requesting money, or volunteering, or any action whatsoever, will be responded to with a link to this report and the question,

"When are we going to try the war criminals?"

This cannot stand. It cannot. It cannot be swept under the rug. It cannot be put behind us. We cannot move forward with this as our karma. Atonement must begin now. Today. This minute. :mad:

[defendandprotect]

97. Echoes of "disappearing" people -- and infecting with HIV was also threatened -- !!!

Actually, the prisoner was given two injections after that an not told what
they were.

We've know about all of this for years now -- well back into the Bush/Cheney
horror show!

We've not only been denied and ignored by Republicans in WH and Congress --
we've been denied and ignored now by Democrats in Congress for two years!!!

I'm in favor of decades of confinement for Bush/Cheney, etal --- but not physical
punishment. In fact, they are probably counting on the fact that should they
ever be brought to justice that it will be by people who would respect their rights!!

:) Thanks for posting this -- we need to constantly be reminded of it.

Of course, impeachment, should have also been about ALL of this.

Imagine -- Obama said he didn't see any any cause to impeach Bush--!!!
Those weren't his exactly words, but pretty much the meaning of what he said.

What I do know . . . is if we do not begin to hold the right wing responsible for
the decades of political violence they have unleashed on us -- assassinations, etal --
we will only see MORE of it!!

[Christa]

98. K & R

and disgusted, embarrassed :(

[Ghost Dog]

104. If it helps, some members of the British

and perhaps of a few (not many, it seems) other European governments were complicit in this, at least insofar as renditions were knowingly facilitated.

:(

[MasonJar]

101. This investigation is being stalled by Obama. He is the key; he can name

a Special PROSECUTOR to act any day of the week. Why won't he? No amount of evidence moves him; it is unconscionable.

[downindixie]

128. I really feel that Obama wants to force

congress to handle this by releasing Reagan and Papa Bush's documents public alongside the Red Cross leak! Hey! I just trying to keep my faith in Obama!

[KayLaw]

106. Remember Dick Durbin?

And TPTB made him apologize for his remarks.

[Pastiche423]

109. K&R!

This post needs more recommends.

Recommender #154.

[theFrankFactor]

110. Barack'll Fix it... Right?

[MrsBrady]

111. not in OUR NAME k&r n/t

[rgbecker]

112. I just emailed the link to my Senator, John Kerry, and told him to get to work.

I suggest you send the link to your senator too. These torturers need to go to jail.

[RedCloud]

113. Last train to Nuremburg

LAST TRAIN TO NUREMBERG

Chorus (and after each verse):
Last train to Nuremberg!
Last train to Nuremberg!
Last train to Nuremberg!
All on board!

Do I see Lieutenant Calley?
Do I see Captain Medina?
Do I see Gen'ral Koster and all his crew?
Do I see President Nixon?
Do I see both houses of Congress?
Do I see the voters, me and you?

Who held the rifle? Who gave the orders?
Who planned the campaign to lay waste the land?
Who manufactured the bullet? Who paid the taxes?
Tell me, is that blood upon my hands?

If five hundred thousand mothers went to Washington
And said, "Bring all of our boys home without delay!"
Would the man they came to see, say he was too busy?
Would he say he had to watch a football game?

Words and Music by Pete Seeger (1970)
(c) 1970 by Sanga Music Inc.

[Generator]

114. But we must look forward

In fact I certainly have. The great presidency is already dead. Everytime I see Obama this is what I think of. It has ruined his presidency for me. It's just that simple. I cannot forgive this. And he can. And thus, every time I see Obama I see a de facto apologist for torture. That's what moving forward means.

[DutchLiberal]

115. It's like reading Nazi records.

It really is. No, this time I'm not using hyperbolic language.

And they (= all of those who were involved, not just Bush and Cheney) are getting away with it. And Obama's protecting them.

[chill_wind]

146. Yes. See also "The Experiment" by Jane Mayer in 2005. (TNY)

Incredible nauseating detail of the mindset of the designers. (11 pages)

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/07/11/050711fa_fact4?currentPage=1

Among all that, these surreal quotes:

“They get honey-glazed chicken and rice pilaf. They get lemon-baked fish.” He noted that some detainees don’t like to have their vegetables touching their meat: “So we serve them separately, in little Styrofoam clamshells, like the ones you get at a fast-food restaurant.” He went on, “We have to be like the parents here. In loco parentis. That’s how we look at it. It’s like a big family.”

-The paternally benign Colonel Mike Bumgarner, the commander of the Joint Detention Operations Group,Guantanamo

[dcindian]

116. How much more will it take?

Our government is failing us right now.

[lostnotforgotten]

117. When Will Obama Indict Bush? - Oh Yes - Change We Can Believe In!

eom

[katandmoon]

118. And the Obama Administration will not do ONE FUCKING THING about it.

[MadMaddie]

119. So the evidence is there can we say War Crimes now.

Can we start preparing a case against the criminals for doing this.

[EVDebs]

120. Sounds exactly like what Naomi Klein describes in Shock Doctrine nt

[maryf]

121. K&Rnt

[chill_wind]

123. Senate Intel is "fact-finding" behind closed doors. Call/email Feinstein's office!

I did in February.

Demand transparency:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5148835

Senate to investigate CIA's actions under Bush (February 27, 2009)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3758805

Just keep in mind what Leon Panetta has said, despite her excercise for our apparent consumption.
And how he blew right through his confirmation:

No Prosecutions For CIA Torturers

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x423143

The only ray of light is that Sheldon Whitehouse & Russ Feingold are on that committee..

They need to hear from the American public, too.

[chill_wind]

124. War Criminals, Including Their Lawyers, Must Be Prosecuted (Marjorie Cohn)-

"Attorney General Eric Holder should appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate and prosecute high Bush officials including lawyers like John Yoo who gave them “legal” cover. Obama is correct when he said that no one is above the law. Accountability is critical to ensuring that our leaders never again torture and abuse people."

Feb 2009

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x427256

http://marjoriecohn.com/2009/02/war-criminals-including-their-lawyers.html



"Marjorie Cohn is president of the National Lawyers Guild and a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, where she teaches criminal law and procedure, evidence, and international human rights law. She lectures throughout the world on human rights and US foreign policy."

[HughMoran]

125. That's gut-wrenchingly awful to read

I don't even have to read more to know that whoever ordered this must be tried and executed.

K&R - thanks for not letting this slip under the radar.

[samplegirl]

126. The Time is now....

to hold steadfast to holding these people accountable!


GREAT POST!!!!!!!! K&R

[sagetea]

127. K&R

n/t

[shellgame26]

129. my gawd

sounds like something right out of the dark ages.

[zeemike]

131. our position is not that much different than Germany in 1940

Just imagine if you will that Germany had an election in 1940 and a sane man was elected.
what do you think would have happened when the entire government, military industrial establishment and media was a willing partner in the atrocities of that day?
How would one sane man go up against all that power?
And if he tried do you think they would let him seeing as they were mostly all willing partners in it?
And there would have been plenty of German tea baggers who had ben brainwashed by the fascist propaganda machine.

I honestly don't know how one defeats Fascism by peacefully democratic means or even if it is possible. But I would like to think so.
But defeat them we must or loose our souls and our country.

[Swagman]

132. and John Yoo sanctioned child abuse and rape as well

if it led to "information" about terrorists.

[merh]

133. The murder of a detainee in 2004 was at the hands of the CIA -

The case was turned over to the DOJ for prosecution - nothing has come of the case - no justice for murder. Why expect if for torture.

See Scott Horton's column at Harper's magazine linked at this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5428487

Or consider what Congressional Quarterly’s Jeff Stein calls “The Mysterious Case of Mark Swanner.” The Army’s Criminal Investigation Detachment studied the death of Manadel al-Jamadi (photo left), who died in Swanner’s custody, and concluded that he had been murdered. Swanner, a long-time CIA officer, was fingered as the perpetrator, and the case was referred to the U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia for prosecution. That was 2004. So five years later, what has happened? Nothing happened.

Note the contrast: the Bush Administration aggressively prosecutes a bunch of grunts. But the military’s investigation showed that these enlisted personnel and NCOs were actually operating under the direction of a mysterious group of contractors. And it also concluded that a CIA officer was responsible for the one clear-cut homicide to emerge from Abu Ghraib–an individual who was literally tortured to death. The bit players are prosecuted, but the instigators, the individuals who bore real responsibility for what happened? They’re handed over to the crack “fast-lane” prosecutors in Virginia, the most political crew of a highly politicized Justice Department, and nothing happens.

Why? The Bush Administration issued a license to the CIA to torture and kill. The Justice Department itself was smack in the middle of this process, offering assurances that there would be no prosecutions. Moreover, a prosecution, had it been brought, would likely have resulted in disclosure of many uncomfortable details—how Bush cabinet officers approved not only techniques, but even specific torture programs, for instance; how the Justice Department itself connived in the entire process. A prosecution might have brought the truth close to the surface. Can’t have that. Is there any chance that this process will be reversed by the Obama Administration?

So far, every sign runs in the opposite direction. Panetta’s pastoral missive offers absolution: “Officers who act on guidance from the Department of Justice—or acted on such guidance previously—should not be investigated, let alone punished. This is what fairness and wisdom require.” He adopts the “go forth and sin no more” approach.

But start with the fact that much of the worst abuse occurred well before the first of the Justice Department’s torture memoranda, from August 2002. How exactly were CIA agents relying on “guidance from the Department of Justice” that had not yet been issued? They weren’t. Note that the Justice Department’s letter in response to the ACLU’s FOIA request stated that the 92 tapes that the CIA destroyed (in yet another criminal act) were made between April and December 2002. The Justice Department acknowledges that these tapes would have contained evidence of torture. Therefore we know that the CIA was implementing the Bush torture program a half year before John Yoo came in to craft his infamous torture memo. Moreover, Yoo was brought in to write only in response to push-back from CIA officers and others who properly labeled these techniques as unlawful.

[ProgressIn2008]

134. "Who is in jail for this? Where are the fucking trials?" -- you're kidding, right?

I mean, I feel your outrage keenly, but you're seriously asking this?

We soothed our consciences by electing a President and Congress who will... ensure nothing is done.

Every day that passes and nothing is done, we own this even more.

[trickyguy]

135. How awful. I'm ashamed. But there should be justice here.

And let the punishment fit the crime.

[truebrit71]

136. Disgusting, and if President Obama doesn't investigate and prosecute offenders he owns it too...

...

[chill_wind]

140. And one last time: Congress KNOWS, has KNOWN. 2 year investigation.

Panel blames Bush officials for detainee abuse
Bipartisan report says guards and interrogators not the true culprits

updated 6:31 p.m. ET, Thurs., Dec . 11, 2008

WASHINGTON - The physical and mental abuse of detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay Naval Base was the direct result of Bush administration policies and should not be dismissed as the bad work of guards and interrogators, a Senate report concludes.

The Armed Services Committee report concludes that harsh interrogation techniques used by the CIA and the U.S. military were directly adapted from the training techniques used to prepare special forces personnel to resist interrogation by enemies that torture and abuse prisoners. The techniques included forced nudity, painful stress positions, sleep deprivation, and until 2003, waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning.

The report is the result of a nearly two-year investigation that directly links President George W. Bush's policies after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, legal memos on torture, and interrogation rule changes with the abuse photographed at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq four years ago. Much of the report remains classified. Unclassified portions of the report were released by the committee Thursday.

more:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28180540/

WAPO Dec 2008

Report on Detainee Abuse Blames Top Bush Officials

By Joby Warrick and Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, December 12, 2008; Page A01


(...)

The report is the most direct refutation to date of the administration's rationale for using aggressive interrogation tactics -- that inflicting humiliation and pain on detainees was legal and effective, and helped protect the country. The 25-member panel, without one dissent among the 12 Republican members, declared the opposite to be true.

The administration's policies and the resulting controversies, the panel concluded, "damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies, and compromised our moral authority."

The panel drew from congressional testimony and official documents, many of which were previously released during a nearly two-year probe. While many of the underlying facts were known, the report represented the most significant attempt by Congress to assess one of the defining controversies of the Bush presidency.

(...)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/11/AR2008121101969.html?hpid=topnews

US Senate committee: Senior officials responsible for detainee abuse
Donald Rumsfeld and George W Bush

16 December 2008

(...)

"The conclusions of this investigation show the need for a comprehensive commission of inquiry into ‘war on terror’ abuses, as well as the prosecution of anybody against whom there is evidence of criminal wrongdoing under national or international law, regardless of the person’s rank or position," said Susan Lee, Director of Amnesty International’s Americas team.

Khaled Sheikh Mohammed is one detainee whom the US government has admitted subjecting to water-boarding in secret CIA custody. In an interview with ABC News on Monday, Vice President Richard Cheney was asked whether he had authorized "the tactics" used against Mohammed. The Vice-President said that he "was aware of the program, certainly, and involved in helping get the process cleared... I supported it." He specifically confirmed that, in his opinion, the use of water-boarding had been "appropriate".

Amnesty International has said that the establishment and operation of a commission of inquiry must not be used to block or delay the prosecution of any individuals against whom there is already sufficient evidence of wrongdoing.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/us-senate-committee-senior-officials-responsible-detainee-abuse-20081216

Here's the Senate Bipartisan Report in pdf. (19 pages)

"Department of Justice Redefines Torture (U)"

But even in their conclusion they still cannot bring themselves to use that word. They prefer the term "abuse" over torture. "Erosion of standards" over war crimes.


(all bold/italic emphasis mine)

Now Senator Feinstein is out in the weeds somewhere whacking the ball around some more in her secret invesigation in hopes of shutting up the public and the media for another year or so:

The officials described the planned inquiry as a "study" and stressed that it would not yield recommendations for possible legal proceedings.

Democrats.com- Bob Fertik
Dianne Feinstein Plans Torture Coverup


"Most of what we know about the role of prison doctors and medical staffers comes from tens of thousands of pages of government documents released pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act suit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union. These papers include criminal investigations, FBI notes on debriefings of prisoners, interviews with witnesses, sworn recollections of conversations, e-mails from soldiers and intelligence personnel, autopsy reports, military base policies, and prisoners' medical records. Here are some of the incidents they reveal."


from another article in 2006 (that will make any human being ill):

Where were the doctors and nurses at Abu Ghraib and Bagram?
By Steven H. MilesPosted Tuesday, June 27, 2006, at 1:08 PM ET
http://www.slate.com/id/2144590/

If you and I could read the declassified parts of all those FOIA'd public government documents over these many years, Congress had access to those documents, too.

[peacetalksforall]

141. Is it hate for Muslims? Is it 'group sickness, diabolical group sickness'?

How tough do you think you are and how much do you have to prove something to yourself to be in this branch of the CIA or a private contractor and contractor employee?

Grand, humble Christians. And Jews? What about Buddhists? What about universalists? Atheists?

Seriously asked.

[ThomWV]

153. I have been asking myself the same question for days now.

Actually I can't really even get a grasp on the question - to ask it in a way that leads to a sensible answer. When it was three people in the room, the detainee, the torturer, and the doctor just what on earth was the motivation of each. The Detainee might have been anyone and in fact what little we know tells us that any individual detainee was much more likely innocent than guilty of having done us harm but what about the other two? The Doctor violated 4 of the 5 indications that unethical behavior was taking place and acted contrary to any duty to preserve the health and sanity of their patient. Did they do this for Army Doctors pay? What motivation could there have been for these - or this - well trained, well educated person. And then we come to the torturer. Where do you get a torturer, how does your company hire one, what is the job description that the CIA uses to evaluate those who apply for the job. More importantly how did we fail in raising the child who became the man in the room with the black hood over his face?

As I said, the real question is a cloud in my mind, but there are failures here on levels that I just can't get sorted out in my mind. The one thing I am positive about, the problem is ours, not to be blamed on other group of people on earth. We have to be the ones to solve it, and it is a problem that must be solved or else we are a nation of barbarians.

[slipslidingaway]

143. Are these crimes or just really bad policies...

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Barack_on_torture.html


"...I mentioned the report in my question, and said "I know you've talked about reconciliation and moving on, but there's also the issue of justice, and a lot of people -- certainly around the world and certainly within this country -- feel that crimes were possibly committed" regarding torture, rendition, and illegal wiretapping. I wanted to know how whether his Justice Department "would aggressively go after and investigate whether crimes have been committed."

Here's his answer, in its entirety:


What I would want to do is to have my Justice Department and my Attorney General immediately review the information that's already there and to find out are there inquiries that need to be pursued. I can't prejudge that because we don't have access to all the material right now. I think that you are right, if crimes have been committed, they should be investigated. You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve.

So this is an area where I would want to exercise judgment -- I would want to find out directly from my Attorney General -- having pursued, having looked at what's out there right now -- are there possibilities of genuine crimes as opposed to really bad policies. And I think it's important-- one of the things we've got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing betyween really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I've said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances. Now, if I found out that there were high officials who knowingly, consciously broke existing laws, engaged in coverups of those crimes with knowledge forefront, then I think a basic principle of our Constitution is nobody above the law -- and I think that's roughly how I would look at it..."

[ThomWV]

154. And still we wait for action ...

[slipslidingaway]

166. Yes and those remarks back in April 2008 were very revealing...

considering all that was known at the time.

:(

Thanks for keeping this issue out front.

[Political Heretic]

145. No one gives a fuck. Just trust in Obama and shutup.

[ThomWV]

155. Hail to the Chief!

[Djinn]

147. American involvement in and sanction of torture

predates the Bush administration by a LONG mark - a few highlights, including Democrat ones;

Creation of the KYP, Greece, 1940's

James Becket, an American attorney sent to Greece by Amnesty, wrote in 1969 that some torturers told prisoners that some of their equipment had come as US military aid. One item was a special “thick white double cable” whip that was “scientific, making their work easier”; another was the head screw, known as an “iron wreath”, which was progressively tightened around the head or ears.

Creation of the SAVAK, Iran, 1950's

According to a former CIA analyst on Iran, Jesse J. Leaf, SAVAK was instructed in torture techniques by the Agency.

After the revolution, Iranians discovered and showed film made by the CIA for SAVAK on how to torture women.

Anti Castro forces (wholly supported by the CIA) Bolivia, 1967

Interrogation houses were set up where Bolivians suspected of aiding Che’s guerrilla army were brought for questioning and sometimes tortured. When the Bolivian interior minister learned of the torture, he was furious and demanded that the CIA put a stop to it

Operation Phoenix, South Vietnam 1964 - 1975

between 20,000 - 40,000 tortured and killed

This is all without even touching on the happy role of the SOA in Latin America

Then there's this from Amnesty

“From September 1991 to December 1993 the U.S. Commerce Department had issued over 350 export licenses worth more than $27 million for:

saps (bludgeons)
thumb-cuffs
thumb-screws
leg-irons
shackles and handcuffs
specially designed implements of torture
straight jackets
plastic handcuffs
police helmets and shields

United States of America — Rights for All October 1998

This is an issue of power pure and simple - not of Republican evil and Democrat refusal to sanction that evil.

[ThomWV]

156. You focus on getting convictions for that set of torturing and I'll work on this one.

It is good your memory gives us historical precedent, but my interest is focused on the most recent occurrences. You see, we can do something about what has been done recently and its possible that doing something now may lead to less of this sort of illegal activity in the future.

[Djinn]

168. the problem is it was ALWAYS illegal

and it ALWAYS happened.

Getting more laws on the book wont end this - stop the wars (and propping up of puppet dictators) in the name of US might, then you might help end torture.

Further up the thread you mention that you think this was the first time this sort of shit was officially sanctioned, I was trying to point out that it most certainly ISN'T meaning it's going to take FAR FAR more laws on the book or even a few arrests to stop it happening again.

It wasn't a list to show I've been reading history books, I thought the point was obvious.

[chill_wind]

164. Abuse of power is always bipartisan.

Jane Mayer-- The New Yorker

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x439911

[wroberts189]

150. knr

[tclambert]

151. Keep shouting it. Bush and Cheney are hoping people will forget.

If you can keep the noise up long enough, eventually the authorities will have to address "the issue that won't die." Take heart. You have allies all over the world. Not just victims and relatives of victims in the Middle East and South Asia, but in Spain and England and Canada.

[Honeycombe8]

157. I don't think a person can "dangle" for several days. They die from suffocation, don't they?

That's how crucifixion kills people, isn't it? A person, dangling from his arms....his body gets lower, as his arms stay high, and his lungs get smothered, so he dies.

[ThomWV]

162. You are absolutely right - please see responses number 72 and 75 above

And I offer you my apology as well for my poor choice of words.

[mod mom]

158. NATIONAL SHAME! We must take action to prosecute these war criminals!

[OneBlueSky]

159. makes you "Proud To Be An American," don't it? . . .

"And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

"And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘ Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA."

Lee Greenwood . . .

so-o-o-o-o glad we signed the kids up for them "American History Through Country Music" classes down at the VFW Hall . . . yesireeeeee! . . .

:sarcasm:

[Orwellian_Ghost]

160. K&R

[Luciferous]

161. K&R

[texastoast]

163. But but but

Isn't torture patriotic?:sarcasm:

I'm going to send your link on to all my rethug acquaintenances (and some family members).

The Bush administration needs to be brought up for this. To do less is to be totally complicit.

K&R by the way.

[riderinthestorm]

165. A very sickened and disturbed K and R.

I'm getting very disheartened with Obama. Between the economic issues - the persistence in allowing Geithner, Summers and the rest of the Wall St. enablers, the warrantless wiretapping defense, more $$ to fund the wars etc. etc., it's becoming harder and harder to brush off and defend.

[Tab]

167. I read the whole report

We're getting more like old Russia every day (or we were, under Bush).

You could be "disappeared". No human rights.

For a country that held itself up as the antithesis of Russia, not to mention expounding our focus on human rights, this is apalling.

Do you remember one of the first "international" "actions" Bush managed to do? He got us kicked off of the Human Rights panel at the U.N. That's right - the United States no longer sat on the Human Rights panel.

And it just went to hell from there.