" The Germans tried at Nurnberg were acting legally, under German law"

[Smith_3]

N/T

[originalpckelly]

1. Exactly.

I'm outraged that anyone on DU would even hit "Post Message" with anything but a universal and forceful condemnation of such action, both the actual torture and the willingness to look the other way.

[pleah]

2. K&R

[Gman]

3. Which is why Bush/Cheney/Gonzales/Rice et al won't be tried under US law

THey'll have to go somewhere like the ICC which I think is the proper court rather than a US court. Crimes were committed internationally. The international community should prosecute.

[hobbit709]

4. International treaties ratified by the U.S. have the force of U.S. law.

Article 6 of the U.S. Constitution

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

[bullimiami]

7. exactly. bushco does not even have the cover of us "law" to hide under.

they should be prosecuted both federally and internationally.

[DearAbby]

23. They new it was against US Laws

That is why torture was done outside our borders.

[stray cat]

5. The Germans lost the war

[Smith_3]

6. Yup. And the sad part is that if that is what makes the difference we are admitting that might makes

right and nothing else.

Basically, if the Bush administration is not prosecuted it degrades the Nurnberg trials from a prime example of international law to primitive victors justice. Bascially, the message we are sending that it is perfectly fine to commit crimes.

[Thothmes]

29. That msg was sent in the late sixties/early seventies

LBJ & RMN prosecuted a war in vietnam based on lies, war crimes were committed, no prosecutions except for one LT. and one Capt. Over 50,000 Americans dead, 200,000 wounded, and maybe as many as 4 million Vietnames killed/wounded. Not one of the perpetrators has spent one day in prison for their participation in those crimes. That is why the Bush cabal believe they can get away with it. It looks like they were correct. JMO

[coalition_unwilling]

33. The death of one person is a tragedy; the death

of millions is a statistic - Joseph Stalin

Seriously, US war crimes go back at least as far as the Spanish-American War of 1898 (setting aside the genocide inflicted on the indigenous peoples and the terrorism against Africans enslaved).

US involvement in SE Asia merely represents a shift in scale, not in substance.

As H. Rap Brown famously quipped, "Violence is as American as cherry pie."

[Thothmes]

37. go back further than the Span-Am

Civil War, Fort Pillow, Plymouth, NC. come to mind.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. And we have yet to win this one

according to Obama, this is wartime and we have two wars going on now. Our victory is not certain, victory never is until it is won and held.

[ConcernedCanuk]

22. USA is NOT "at war" - they have not declared war on a state/nation

.
.
.

YES

The USA has it's forces in other sovereign nations slaughtering it's citizens,

but has not "declared war" in a legal sense.

The USA has INVADED numerous nations, but is not legally at war with any nation that I'm aware of.

This rhetoric of "war on terror" - well - that's a "war" on ideals.

As George Carlin mentioned, why not a war on homelessness?

now there's a more ethical "war" if one wants to call it that.

YES

The USA is pounding other nations with its bombs and bullets -

but as far as I can see,

The USA hasn't declared war on any nation -

Just happen to be dropping their bombs and shooting up the population wherever it strikes their fancy.

. . ruh roh USA . .

yeah, right

[Windy]

8. The germans tried at Nurenburg were the officers in charge.

Not the lower level grunts.

And don't tell me that they weren't because I visited Nurenburg last year. While others were prosecuted later in many trials and had prison sentences, many lower level military were not charged.

The only nazis to face death sentences for their crimes were those upper level SS who were caught and didn't flee the country.

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Funny how you paint as past

a process of justice that continues today. They still go after Nazi war ciminals, to this day. So 'were not charge' often means 'not yet chraged'. Many of them were tried during my lifetime. Some may still be put on trial. 60 years on.
And now Obama says the highest levels are never to be investigated or prosecuted. This is a redefinition of America.

[Windy]

11. You misinterpreted what I said...

I NEVER said anywhere that nazi war criminals do not continue to be sought and prosecuted. I can tell you that many older german citizens are still alive and living in Germany who were conscripted into the german army during wwII and worked at the camps. They are not the ones that are being pursued. It is the officers in charge that are hunted and those like Demjanuk (sp) who now lives in Ohio, who are infamous and wanted by the Germans and Israelis.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. He did NOT say that. He said those at the LOWEST levels are

not going to be prosecuted. He did NOT say the higher ups will NOT be; he just didn't say they would be - which is not the same thing at all.

[tuckessee]

13. You're basically correct.

But thousands of other Germans & collaborators down to the lowest conscripted Landser were tried and executed in dreary prison yards & public squares from Prague to Smolensk and everywhere in between for the next fifteen years. The Ruskies used to hang convicted Jerries like chrismas ornaments.

[conscious evolution]

30. Many of the lower level grunts were rendered

into the Kings Permanant Custody.
Google that phrase.

[Dr. Strange]

12. Which is why they were tried in an international court...

and not in a German court.

[tekisui]

19. Interesting point.

But, the authorization and implementation of torture violated US law, in that US-signed Treaties were violated. And, some torture may have occured before it was 'legalized'.

[Javaman]

14. Where exactly is "Nurnberg"? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Germany.

There's a famous racetrack there.

Not to be confused with Nuremberg, also in Germany, which hosted a series of famous Nazi war crime trials.

[tuckessee]

18. They used to race cars post-war on the rally site.

Spectators sat in the same seats that were used to view the Partietag rallies.

Is there a "Nuremberg" in Germany? I thought "Nuremberg" was an English transliteration of "Nurnberg", like "Munchen" becomes "Munich", etc.

[TahitiNut]

20. Correct. Sorta. Just add an umlaut.

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. There's a Nurburg.

Often source of confusion.

[Solly Mack]

26. I live in Germany. Nürnberg is Nuremberg

You don't have to take my word for it. Look it up.

See the sign? Notice the spelling? That sign is on the building where the Nuremberg trials were held.



This is the inside of the building. The docket.


And this is a book, in both German and English,about the Nuremberg Trials.Notice the title of the book.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Nuernberg is, Nuerburg isn't.

Two different places.

[Solly Mack]

36. I never once said that Nurburg was the same as Nurnberg

Neither did anyone else.

You see, I know the difference between Nurburg and Nurnberg the same way I know that Nurnberg is the exact same as Nuremberg. I also know the various spellings of the 2 cities.

In post 16 you told Javaman that Nurnberg was not to be confused with Nuremberg.

Nurnberg/Nuremberg are one and the same
Nurburg is a different city (with a famous racetrack, btw)

[conscious evolution]

31. correct

[Orwellian_Ghost]

15. K&R

[TahitiNut]

21. Which is why the "illegal order" hair-splitting is ridiculous.

:shrug:

[B o d i]

25. +eleventy1!11

[cali]

27. oh, dear.

no, actually, many, weren't. They were acting under orders, but much of what they perpetrated wasn't codified under law.

[Smith_3]

28. The euthanasia project was certainly coded into law

http://www.white-history.com/hwr64ii.htm

[cali]

32. no, not really- and that's really not a very good source

Action T-4 was authorized in a secret memo, but it was not encoded into law. In other words, it was an order.

[Smith_3]

34. I just picked that site because it showed up somewhere at the top of the google search

Guess it does have a little supremacist ring to it...