JonLP24
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Tue Apr-21-09 04:42 PM
Original message |
These pro-torture people make me sick |
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One said on the Cafferty file, something similar as, boo-hoo, Sheikh Mohammed had water dumped on his face. Another said maybe on the 267th time he would tell us where Bin Laden is. I understand the suspects are probaly bad people, but we have truly bad people in this country and else where since homo sapians existed. We don't just water board murder suspects til they give us a confession. The confession would be thrown out. I guess the constitution isn't important anymore and the ends justify the means.
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vadawg
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Tue Apr-21-09 04:44 PM
Response to Original message |
1. my take is that if someone knew were someone was who had my daughter |
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then i would for sure waterboard and anything else to protect my child, so i am not going to judge the operatives who mayby did what they did to protect what they feel is their family (the USA).
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ixion
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Tue Apr-21-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
4. violence begats violence |
BlueJazz
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
7. Yep...You got it. Good, Decent people act like Good, Decent people. |
vadawg
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
8. unfortunately the world is full of bad people who prey apon the weak |
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sometimes the sheepdog has to bloody the wolf to protect the sheep, and i think that most fathers would torture someone to rescue their child in a heartbeat.
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tkmorris
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
20. "sometimes the sheepdog has to bloody the wolf to protect the sheep" |
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Seriously? That's your argument? Oh my dear Aunt Sally...
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vadawg
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #20 |
21. what you dont think that sometimes the sheepdog has to fight back |
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or do you think that the wolf can be reasoned with.
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ixion
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #8 |
23. by your own logic, we are the predator, not the prey |
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Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 05:54 PM by ixion
or, by your metaphor, we are the wolf, not the sheepdog.
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JonLP24
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Tue Apr-21-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
6. I would use whatever I did use to find out he knows who has her |
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And then use those same tactics to find out where she is. It couldn't of been waterboarding to find out. Otherwise you would've been waterboarding random people to find out who knows who has her.
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walldude
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
10. That's what you call protecting people? Torture? |
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First of all it's been proven that torture does not work. Second of all it's also proven that you get better and more information by treating your prisoners with respect, give them medical care, food, smokes, whatever.
You say it's ok to do it to protect your child. Well then you better start torturing every pedophile in America, because your child is in danger. You better start torturing every teenager in America because you never know when one could possibly be another Columbine shooter.
Here's another way to look at it. They say they tortured people to get information about possible attacks. What if no attacks were being planned at the moment? How do you determine what is the circumstance where people should be tortured? There are threats everwhere, every minute of every day. You thing torturing people is the best way to combat those threats?
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vadawg
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #10 |
15. okay you hold your belief ill hold mine that if needed i would torture in a nanosecond to protect |
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my child, we have different outlooks on life and different experiences.
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TexasObserver
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
18. Thankfully, you'll never be in a position to make such decisions. |
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Your notion is the world's oldest rationalization for committing all manner of atrocities.
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vadawg
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #18 |
19. i hope i never have to rely apon stuff from the past to protect my children as well |
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i pray that i will never.
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Seldona
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
22. That isn't the issue. |
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The issue is, should that reaction be LEGAL. It is a natural response to want to protect one's child, whatever the cost. But one should be prepared to face the consequences of doing so.
What's next? Grainy footage of you torturing the accused in a stadium full of people while the police look on? Fucking spooky. Besides, the argument is complete bs on it's face. Like military, intelligence, as well as private contractors, tortured people because they believed we are all their children and it would protect us?
Seriously?
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CJCRANE
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Tue Apr-21-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
24. Um...but there is no way of knowing in advance |
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if the person you are torturing knows the information you are looking for. So you're back to square one.
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JonLP24
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Tue Apr-21-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #24 |
25. I think you hit on the head right there |
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In the scenario the poster described, he would have to have some way of finding out he does know something. While if you're information gathering techniques tipped you off that this guy knows, I'd look at how do you know and use those same techniques to find the daughter. I don't know if you are understanding what I'm saying, I don't. But I know what I'm thinking and we believe we are somewhat on the same page.
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CJCRANE
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Tue Apr-21-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #25 |
26. I know what you mean. |
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The poster's scenario works well in '24' but doesn't make sense in the real world.
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tjwash
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Tue Apr-21-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #1 |
27. Dude...turn of "24," put down the kool-aid, and step slowly away from the TV |
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Trust me...you'll thank yourself later.
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hobbit709
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Tue Apr-21-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message |
2. Those gungho clowns wouldn't last 30 seconds if it was done to them. |
Occam Bandage
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Tue Apr-21-09 04:48 PM
Response to Original message |
3. "maybe on the 267th time he would tell us where Bin Laden is." |
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I hear that terrorists come with an internal drowning reflex sensor pre-installed. If that's activated a certain number of times (it varies from one to five hundred with each terrorist), then you'll unlock the Secret Terror Information compartment in their abdomen. Don't give up! Each bucket o' water is another bucket closer to the magic number!
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walldude
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
11. I don't know, I heard that they got the truth |
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out of Kalid on try number 134. The subsequent sessions were just confirming.
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ixion
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Tue Apr-21-09 04:51 PM
Response to Original message |
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It shows just how ugly we can be as a species, in my opinion.
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bbinacan
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message |
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one of my best friends was a SERE instructor at the C level (Seals et al attend this level). I talked to him a couple of years ago about it and learned that we put our own people through such things as water boarding. I asked if he had been water boarded or taught it. He said they did that at the CA. school. Though he would not give me details, he said that what he had been through and later instructed was scarier.
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JonLP24
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #9 |
12. I'm sure there is. There's torture in the Maricopa County Jail |
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A jail ran by Sheriff Joe, if you don't believe me about the torture then just look up the 1 - 4 million paid in lawsuits and the number of pending lawsuits as well.
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jody
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message |
13. Agree re " pro-torture people make me sick" but shouldn't we also be sickened by policies that kill |
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innocent people in Afghanistan and Pakistan?
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JonLP24
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #13 |
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I still remember the first few days of the invasion and we made a mistake and bombed civilians instead and RWers on college basketball message boards(It was march madness during the time) calling it "collateral damage". So believe me it bothers me to a point where I still remember the earliest civilians getting killed. I'm capable of being outraged over more things then once.
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jody
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #14 |
17. Agree, my wife and I participated in anti-war demonstrations before Bush invaded Iraq and I'm angry |
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because innocent people are dying this very moment because we are fighting wars we can't possibly win.
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rrneck
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Tue Apr-21-09 05:29 PM
Response to Original message |
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it would be wrong. The need to torture somebody to extract information quickly to avert disaster only happens in the movies.
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