about that BEE problem (Colony Collapse Disorder)

[drthais]

I posted a new thread
because the recent one had SO many posts
and kudos to DUers for being concerned about this:

we have a small organic operation here
and are very very concerned about the bee colony collapse problem:
It is important, I think, to read as much as possible about this

no, they don't know what is causing it
one of the more interesting theories I have read, though
is that GM foods, corn in particular,
wreaks havoc on bees immune systems
and as a result, makes them suceptible to mites etc
may, many scientists in this area of study
are looking closely at the impact of GM foods on bees

we do have a noticeable lack of bees here (south Louisiana)
so each day, wherever I am, I keep an eye on whatever is in bloom
and observe bee behavior
I must say that many things, fruit trees in particulr
that would normally be COVERED with bees
are not - there may be one, or two buzzing around
this is very bad



damn the powers that be
for experimenting with crops with no foresight
does kind of remind on of nuclear power

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. It's chemtrails.

Chemtrails are causing the bee problem.

[MonkeyFunk]

3. nuh uh

I blame fluoridation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. I have 2.7 times as much evidence...

that it's chemtrails as opposed to fluoridation, and 5.1 times as much evidence as opposed to GM.

[Buzz Clik]

11. Brominated flame retardants.

It doesn't affect bees, but it enhances the propensity for conspiracy theories in humans.

[TZ]

44. you sure do live up to your name there-

a true hooligan. Coming from another born troublemaker can I say: You are funny.:rofl:

[drthais]

6. ok, saw your same post on another BEE thread

so I went and took a look at the 'chemtrails' information
and i must say, as an initial reation
I don't know what to think

believe me, I don't think it's past the money grubbers on this planet
to do all manner of things for nefarious reasons
also, I am a big fan of some types of conspiracy theories
particularly those related to 911
but this, I don't know

[Buzz Clik]

8. No shit.

Your solution is far more feasible.

[GregD]

20. cite your evidnce please

I see you posting this assertion on varous threads, but I don't see an explanation. How do you justify this? What's the proof?

[Buzz Clik]

27. Have you ever found a single bee in a chemtrail?

No? Well, there you.

[shance]

32. How do you know that to be the reason?

n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Because everybody knows...

GM food causes school shootings.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. You are SO WRONG.

1) There is INDISPUTABLE PROOF that bees are used in the production of chemtrails. Do your own goddamn research if you don't believe the TRUTH.

2) The number of bees is inverseley proportional to the number of chemtrails. BEES ARE USED IN THE PRODUCTION OF CHEMTRAILS. MORE CHEMTRAILS = MORE BEES.

As chemtrails increase, bees decrease. This is PROVEN FACT. So proven that I SAID IT TWICE.

You and your little friends on here are obviously paid disinfo agents of the beekepers association!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Obviously you own stock in the Chemtrail corporations.

You just bailed out.

[Rockholm]

2. I saw only one honeybee last year!

It is really freaky.

[Jcrowley]

4. Unfortunately

so many are so far removed from the workings of the world and how fragile is this existence that all they have to offer are glib one liners or looks of stupefaction.

We humans are just a strand in the web of life. It's all connected.

K&R

[BeHereNow]

9. Smart assed keyboard warriors are only connected to the TECH-web of life.

Again, people get the government (and world) they deserve.
Unfortunately, so do the rest of us- bees, artic life and others included.
BHN

[Morgana LaFey]

14. You can't exempt yourself from your damnation.

Sorry, but YOU are mecessaro;u included in the universe of "people who get the government (and world) they deserve."

[BeHereNow]

19. And how is that?

Please, elaborate- I am more than curious
to learn what you know about me.

BHN

[Morgana LaFey]

22. I don't know anything about you,

I don't have to -- other than the fact that you're no goddamned better than the rest of us:

Again, people get the government (and world) they deserve.
Unfortunately, so do the rest of us- bees, artic life and others included.

If you're going to assert that *I* am responsible for the shape the world is in, then so are you.

I just found it an incredibly offensive, elitist post. That's all.

[BeHereNow]

35. Interesting that you take it "personally"

but not surprising in the land of
"It's all about me..."

May I recommend a book by Dr. Karen Horney?
"The Neurotic Personality of Our Time.

Copyright 1937, but never so timely in response to
your posts.

BHN

[WiseButAngrySara]

37. Gosh, i sure didn't. I understood perfectly what was meant. ...n/t

[BeHereNow]

39. It's all about MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

and that is precisely why we are doomed.
Critical thinking and objectivity have been
replaced with neurosis and narcissism.
Welcome to collective nightmare, fueled by the
dreamers.
BHN

[WiseButAngrySara]

41. I am going to read "The Neurotic Personality of Our Time" I've

read books by Dr. Karen Horney but not this one!

:hi: BHN from MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

[Buzz Clik]

26. And there are those of us who have attempted to debate you scientifically...

... and get treated to massive cut-and-pastes from sympathetic websites based on rumor, innuendo, and no science at all.

Yes, there are unknowns about GM organisms of all kinds, but the rational reaction to the unknown is not abject fear.

[Jcrowley]

29. That's false

You left the room.

Even after saying "The gantlet was down." Embarrassing.

GMO's are a massive fraud and an energy sink. Not to mention all the social and political ills.

We're not dealing in the unknown at all.

I don't embrace slick brochure propaganda from Biotech corps and those who promote them.

So please do start a conversation about the benefits of GMO's and let me know.

[Buzz Clik]

33. Whatever you say, slick.

I know good science when I see it, and I can smell bullshit a mile away.

[sendero]

45. The odor must be..

... overwhelming, cause you are all over it. The FACT is that nobody really knows the real effects and long term possibilities of these "innovations" because there is NO WAY TO KNOW.

To assume they are benign is every bit as stupid, probably more since the "benefits" of this technology are questionable at best, as assuming the sky is falling.

[Jcrowley]

57. You are unable to recognize good science

if you are suggesting Biotech is good science. It's as sloppy as it gets. It's corporate junk science, pathetic propaganda, research boondoggles, venture capital and vested interests colluding in the most destructive way.

GE fantasy shattered by human genome project

"In everyday language the talk is about a gene for this and a gene for that. We are now finding that that is rarely so. The number of genes that work in that way can almost be counted on your fingers, because we are just not hard-wired in that way."
Craig Venter, Celera Genomics, 12 February 2001

(The address of this page is www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/GEfantasy.htm )

13 February 2001

Although few may have yet noticed, the primitive scientific model on which the foundations of genetic engineering have been constructed was dealt a quiet but earth-shattering blow this week with the formal publication of the base pair sequence of the human genome. That at least must be the ultimate conclusion to be drawn from what has now been revealed (see press reports below).

Although the human genome project is nominally specific to our own genetic code, the "surprising" nature of its results have much broader implications relating to science's understanding of the genome functioning of all species. The project graphically demonstrates that organism biochemistry is driven as much (if not considerably more so) by the multi-dimensional relationships between the thousands of genes involved (which are in turn symbiotically linked to the functioning of the organism as a whole in its environment), as it is by the previously assumed linear influence of individual genes which has largely dominated scientific thinking up until now.

This realisation is one which has been anticipated and highlighted by critics of genetic engineering from the outset, but which (for reasons best known to itself) large portions of the biotechnology community have chosen to ignore. It represents an implicit acknowledgement of why genetic engineering is inherently risk laden, and it is a dramatic illustration of the old common sense adage that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

Current methods of modern biotechnology predominately rely on an out-of-date model of the way genes influence biological processes within an organism. Although the model espouses some limited embellishments beyond this, it has been largely a simplistic 'one-for-one' component-based model of biochemical processes.

Even though this model now has no option but to surrender to the concept of the multi-dimensional genome - where relationships rather than components predominate - there is little corrective action that genetic engineers can now take to limit the inherently large risk quotient associated with the use of recombinant DNA that has been exposed by this new understanding. This is simply because almost nothing is currently known about such relationships, despite the fact that they are ultimately responsible for the way in which all proteins in an organism (250,000 in the case of a human) are generated.

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/GEfantasy.htm

The credibility of academia in general, scientists in particular, and indeed, the very role of publicly funded universities in contemporary society is being compromised by the uncritical adoption of industry agendas by academia. Tolerating or indeed contributing to the fevered momentum which is promoting GM crops in the absence of meaningful risk assessment is scientifically unsound. To do so in the face of widespread and growing consumer concern -- that is, by the people who are paying our salaries -- is incomprehensible, arrogant, and reprehensible.

This is not science. This is technology in advance of science, profit-driven applications of commercial technology unfettered by scientific understanding of basic physiology and gene function, and real world implications for society and the environment. This is a solution in search of a problem.

[BeHereNow]

36. Yes, I would be interested in that thread too- please, do let us know.

I too, am very interested in learning about the ways that
corporate fuckist have improved the perfection of the mother.
BHN

[proud patriot]

7. I know "it's just bees" ,, but Bees are vitally important !

We have some bees on are fruit trees here in the bay area ,
but not as many as I usually see ...

I hope we can save the honey bees ...

[Buzz Clik]

10. It's POSSIBLE that GM crops may be responsible, ...

but it's more likely to be any number of more probable causes, such as pesticides, parasites, or diseases.

There is no credible evidence that GM crops are involved.

[NV Whino]

13. I think, like global warming...,

it is a combination of things. In the case of bees, GM crops are one factor.

[Buzz Clik]

28. The explosion of GM crops and simultaneous drop in bees makes many of us nervous.

My reaction, however, is to look deeper for all possible explanations.

It seems that every time some crisis comes along, the "Fear GM Crops" crowd hangs it on Bt corn or whatnot. It happens with bees, a few unexplained dead cattle, and even rat-poison tainted wheat gluten. :shrug:

We must be open minded to all possibilities until solid, convincing, scientific evidence emerges.

[DCKit]

58. BT corn caused liver and kidney damage in rats

It's a toxin gene folks. Only FSM knows what it's doing to ol' Bessie (and us).

If BT toxin were meant to be ingested, we'd be eating more dirt.

[Javaman]

56. have you actually read up on Hive Collapse?

No evidence of parasites or pesticides. However, what the various apiarists are finding is a total collapse of the bee's immune system. More so, they are finding that the "surviving" bees (if you want to call them that) have on the measure of 6 to 7 various virus's attacking them at once. It's not an issue with a disease per say but something that causes the Bee's immune system to fail. I read a recent article that makes the comparison that this is like the bee's version of AIDS.

What is more frightening, generally when a hive goes bad for one reason or another, parasites and other insects usually go in and scavenge the remains. Nothing is going near hives that have collapsed. This give reason to the bee experts that it has quite literally become toxic.

The questions now are; how did they become toxic and what is it about the toxicity that is causing the bee's immune system to fail?

This is why GM crops are at the center of this issue. Because so much is unknown about them (check out the documentary, "the future of food". It explains better then I can why GM's are bad news)

What needs to be done is a study of demographics concerning the hive collapse and the type of crops in the immediate vicinity of said hives.

[BeHereNow]

12. Thanks for checking in drthais...good to hear news from the front line-

Lord knows we have plenty of those-who-KNOW-not-from-experience,
but loudly proclaim "the Truth" although they-have-not-lived-it posters
on this subject...
BHN :yourock:

[hootinholler]

15. My money's on that pesticide

That disorients the bee. Wouldn't susceptability to mites or a compromised immune system leave carcases in the hive? From what I've read, the bees are getting lost, and bees don't really pollinate corn do they? I thought corn is primarily wind pollinated.

What do I really know? Nadda.

-Hoot

[BeHereNow]

16. Well YEAH! Given that the countries who banned it HAVE NO PROBLEM with their bees...

BHN

[Buzz Clik]

34. Is that true? I'm not a bee expert ---

I only pick up bits of information here and there. Countries with an imidacloprid ban have no bee problems?

EDIT: A quick check on the web indicates that some a couple of studies suggest imidacloprid seems unlikely -- the concentrations required for impacts on bees is far greater than typical residual concentrations in the environment. Another pesticide -- fipronil -- seems to be the leading candidate. Dunno. Hopefully, this puzzle will be solved soon.

[BeHereNow]

38. Here's a start for your research-

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=22974
Follow through and tell me what YOU find.

BHN

[Buzz Clik]

43. Goody! I love homework assignments!

I'm way ahead of you. I checked all this out last night. I didn't see your story, but it is 100% consistent with the information I gathered yesterday: Although imidacloprid and fipronil have been implicated for killing bees, I have not found anything to support your claim that countries that have banned either chemical are now reporting fully recovered bee populations. In fact, the reason why the shift in emphasis changed from imidcloprid to fipronil was because bees were continuing to disappear in France despite the ban.

[Buzz Clik]

30. I totally agree. It seems the most logical of the current explanations.

Imidacloprid does, indeed, disorient bees. They lose their "homing" ability and get lost. One would think that Bt in corn or similar effects would simply kill bees and, as you suggested, leaves piles of dead bee bodies in the hive.

[whistle]

17. Boy talk about flamers hitting this post, now that you mention it

...I have not seen anywhere near the number of bees here in Oralndo FL as I recall seeing in previous years. I do hope they trace down the cause quickly and come up with a solution.

It is claimed that Albert Einstein speculated that "If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would only have four years of life left."

He may or may not have said this, but I have to think there is validity in the claim that if the bees go, we will all die of starvation in a relatively short space of time.

[tnlefty]

18. Hi drthais! I saw my second honeybee today and in years past

they would be out in force. Earlier I saw one on a grape hyacinth, and today I saw one on my laurels. I try REALLY hard not to use pesticides and I try to have something blooming in the yard for the bees, hummingbirds, etc. when they are out. Lots of bumblebees and carpenter bees (okay, I'll admit that I do not like them) but a lone honeybee.

I'm looking around and taking notice. We've noticed a substantial decrease in the number of frogs, too. :hi:

[WhiteTara]

21. Mendocino county banned GMOs 2 years ago

I was walking in the park a couple of days ago and a cenothis was covered in bees. My first thought was GMOs when I heard about the bees.

We are in serious trouble with these fools who think that they can do anything and have no consequences.

[TexasLady]

23. It's probably nutty but

I wondered if maybe all these cell phone towers are disorienting them. But, hell, whaddooIknow..
I saw ONE two weeks ago, and none since. trees in bloom all over, and even if I leave a soda sitting on my table outside, no bees. Before, there'd be dozens.

[mod mom]

24. Perhaps someone should look into why borer bees are not effected. I have them

swarming around my flowers, as usual. As for honeybees, I have rarely seen them for several years. Even the yellow jackets which come out in Sept seemed like much smaller populations. I take my kids apple picking several times in the fall, and yellow jackets are usually everywhere. They did not bother us last year.

[TZ]

49. borer bees tend not to travel the great distances

that honeybees do. Thats probably why they aren't effected. I really think bee "disorientation" due to some kind of pesticide is PART of the problem. There most likely are other issues as well.

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. When you say bees, you really mean honey bees? right?

I haven't seen a honey bee around here for years, but lots of wasps and Bumble Bees.

[shance]

31. I've noticed dying bees for months now in my backyard here in Los Angeles.

It's been strange.

I havent seen any obvious or visible reason for them to be dying.

[hootinholler]

40. You should call the Dept of Ag extension office and let them know

Are they Honey Bees?

-Hoot

[Jcrowley]

42. KIcking

[Eurobabe]

46. Some people on here sound just like Whorin-Hatch defending Gonzo

:shrug:

Books out peeps, we don't know yet WHAT is causing CCD. Could be GMOs, could be pesticides?

All I know is it ain't good. And I really wish some of the scientific types would stop pounding those of us who are open-minded as to the cause -- can ya stop calling us conspiracy theorists?

Sheesh.

[lonestarnot]

47. Horn Hatcher

[Sequoia]

52. With 13 votes, why isn't this on the front page?

I'm making it 14. This is SO important.

[MLFerrell]

53. Here in WV...

I have seen exactly ONE bee. I was just telling my girlfriend this yesterday, and she said that she hasn't seen ANY.

Scary stuff.

[nolabels]

54. This entire thread is...............

:puke:


The bees will probably outlast the humans when comes to what goes extinct first and it's just too bad so many of the posters above and or the population in general still haven't been able to figure that out. Seems the gene the brings the trait of arrogance is just that much more dominate than the one of curiosity :shrug:

[glitch]

55. I keep reading this as BFEE problem (Colony Collapse Disorder) and thinking it's about Iraq

I guess the bee problem is so horrific I don't even want to contemplate it.

[Pokey Anderson]

59. Here's a link to an article.

If anyone missed it.

Are GM Crops Killing Bees?

By Gunther Latsch
Der Spiegel
Thursday 22 March 2007
http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/032307EA.shtml

A mysterious decimation of bee populations has German beekeepers worried, while a similar phenomenon in the United States is gradually assuming catastrophic proportions. The consequences for agriculture and the economy could be enormous.