Guardian: New Trek Depicts a Sexist Future

[Captain Hilts]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/may/11/star-trek-jjabrams-sexism

Those things, to me - a woman born in 1982 - just are not shocking: we seem to have made more progress, identity-politics-wise, in the last 40 years than Star Trek predicted we would in the next few hundred years. Nope, what I notice, looking at the main crew of the Enterprise in the original TV series, is that most of them are white dudes, there are only two people of colour, there is only one woman - who has to do her job, unlike everyone else, while navigating the problematic confines of a miniskirt - and that all of them, unlike George Takei, are straight.

Actually, this last bit is unfair: there are four women in the future who have speaking roles. They are (1) Kirk's mother, (2) Spock's mother, (3) a green girl that Kirk hooks up with in an early scene, and (4) someone's girlfriend. To tell you whose would be a spoiler, but I should probably let you know: after several scenes in which Uhura is established as a strong, independent woman who will not, repeat, not be reduced to a sex object, she does in fact end up dating one of the leads. Also, her uniform still doesn't come with trousers. Like Nichelle Nichols before her, Zoe Saldana pulls off this dangerous wardrobe mission with grace, dignity, and few or no visible panty sightings, for which I salute her.

Basically, ladies need to engage in procreation or procreation-like activities with a Kirk and/or Spock in order to find their way into the world of Star Trek, and even that's not a guarantee that they'll stick around for very long: Kirk's mother vanishes after the scene in which she gives birth to him - she is, as a character helpfully explains, "off-planet" - and, while I will not reveal what happens to Spock's mother (Winona Ryder!)

[Skittles]

1. what else is new

[sarge43]

38. A view from the times and place

Yes, ST: OS had its fair share of sexism. The culture was sexist. Let's review some early films of one of most popular series in history - Bond, James Bond.

There was Jimmy's magic wiener. One taste and a woman would betray her country (From Russia With Love) or turn from a lesbian to man lovin' slave (Goldfinger). If a woman was in any power position, she was either older than dirt or a vicious dike (Russia again).

Uhura wore mini skirts, BFD. Unless you were post-menopausal (even that didn't stop some), we all did. Why do you think pantie hose came on line? We service women were even allowed to jack the skirt above the knee, two finger width above knee.

Pulling out a memory DVD, speaking as a low ranking enlisted 'gal' of the time, Uhura was radical and amazing. She was on the bridge of a naval vessel, holding an important position (communication in any military unit is vital). Trust me that didn't happen in real world. With the exception of nurses, women were banned from serving aboard any ship. I don't remember any episode when she wasn't treated by the crew with respect (another real world trust me). Was she a role model? No, hardly, but she gave some of us something to think about.

As for minis in the current manifestation, what would you? If the crew were in TNG unisex pj's, the howls of "Not True To The Original!" would be deafening.

[damonm]

106. Uhura NOT a role model in TOS?

Dr Martin Luther King Jr. disagrees with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_igTZlsTPvU

[sarge43]

113. I personally didn't consider her a role model; I was never going to be an officer.

Nor am I African American. As said, she was food for thought, a starting point, a possibility in the days when female O-4s (major/lt cmdr) were in the top 10% of women wage earners in this country. That was, rough guess, about a thousand bucks a month depending upon time in service.

[damonm]

122. You personally, no.

But to MANY others, yes.
And to a certain 6 YO white boy, Uhura just confirmed what his mother had been telling him - the color of your skin didn't make ONE BIT of difference.

[sarge43]

131. Yes, I am well aware.

Whoopie Goldberg, "Mama, Mama. Come see. There's a black woman on TV and she isn't a maid."

From the nineteen year old from upper Michigan who watched her fellow airmen be denied service in Greenville MS diner because the color of their skin did make a difference to the asshole who ran the place, I get the point. I really do.

[damonm]

133. At ease, sarge.

just relating MY experience of it - no digs at you intended.
But my, how things had changed when I served in the '80s - Thank God!

[sarge43]

135. Parade rest ok? :)

Yup they have indeed. I wonder if asshole is still alive? He must be eating sand.

[damonm]

137. Works for me. n/t

[laconicsax]

2. All 4.5 TV series and 10 previous movies depicted a sexist future.

This is nothing new. The idealized future is usually little more than the status quo of today.

[iamthebandfanman]

103. wtf are you talking about?

yeah, im sure a black woman having an important job int he 60s was the norm thing back then, wasnt it.


*rolls eyes*

[damonm]

129. Just like...

the female Chief Medical Officer in ST:TNG and the female CAPTAIN in Voyager. Yes, the future is sexist.

:eyes: right along with you.

[Uncle Joe]

141. There was also a female security chief on "The Next Generation"

before she was killed which allowed Worf the Klingon to take over her duties.

[damonm]

152. Ooh. Good catch!

I'd forgotten Tasha Yar.

[Sgent]

157. Don't forget

Kira (the executive officer) & Dax (science officer) from DS9

[LostinVA]

130. As the telephone operator -- yes, sexist

[damonm]

134. Ah, the ignorance...

"Telephone Operator"

[sarge43]

138. No. She was the communications officer.

She was responsible for the on board internal comm and all subspace comm. We never saw it because ST wasn't a documentary and the production budget was never lavish, but given her span of control she also had a staff of maintenance technicians who did the scut RR on all comm systems. She must have done a good job because unlike engineering, the comm systems tended to function efficiently.

Don't tell a carrier or missile cruiser comm officer all s/he does is answer a phone; s/he will have issues about that.

[damonm]

139. Tks, sarge.

You said it better.

[sarge43]

150. You're welcome, damonm

Another one she would have been responsible for quite often. First contact with new life forms. Sure the Universal Translator and sensors helped, but hers would often be the first words they heard.

Some telephone operator.

[Captain Hilts]

159. Men - center, women - periphery/support roles. nt

[damonm]

192. Kathryn Janeway - Captain, USS Voyager

B'elanna Torres - Chief Engineer, USS Voyager.

Support roles, indeed...:eyes:

[Captain Hilts]

196. No one has condemned ALL Trek. nt

[damonm]

216. O RLY?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5635990&mesg_id=5636193

[laconicsax]

177. Oh, well that just excuses everything else, doesn't it?

-What was the moral of "Mudd's Women?" It certainly couldn't have been about unattractive women and their usefulness.
-What was Yeoman Rand's job? It certainly couldn't have been to just bring Kirk his daily coffee and newspaper.
-Deanna Troi.
-Janice Lester's Starfleet career ended because of a glass ceiling at the captains chair.
-Women in the 23rd and 24th century don't keep their maiden name upon marriage.

[Captain Hilts]

178. 'Deanna Troi'. 'Nuff said. Their efforts to legitimize her post on the bridge were

too little, too late.

[Captain Hilts]

3. When I went to see State of Play, women barely had speaking roles in the previews for other movies.

[baldguy]

4. I seem to remember a hard-assed female shuttle pilot

yelling at McCoy to sit down, shut up & stop whining or she'd get a red shirt to make him do it.

And the green chick was (gasp!) a full-fledged Starfleet cadet, just like Uhura & Kirk, and was assigned to a position on a starship - just like Uhura & Kirk. (Remember that in the original TOS, Orion females were still depicted as slaves - you've come a long way, baby.)

[sarge43]

11. She said she'd put McCoy's butt in the seat

Check the clip on IMDB.

Also interesting that someone who ranting about sexism would imply that the only reason women show affection/lust/love for men is they want to procreate.

And in less than fifty years (Trek time) women will command star ships (Capt Rachel Garret, NCC 1701-C), they'll be chief medical officers, admirals, sit on the Federation council, all the leadership positions.

If I were doing back story, I'd say that for many, many years following the Third World War ("600 million dead!" Cmdr Rikker), healthy, fertile, with no genetic problems women were at such a premium that they de jure and de facto 'protected', ie in purdah. Some of it sexism, Handmaiden's Tale, a lot of it, survival and recovery. The command glass ceiling is always the last to break. There were a lot of women cadets; they'll push through.

If someone had told me in 1962 I would see an African American woman an admiral and commanding a naval task force -- "That's some serious shit you're smoking."

[XemaSab]

19. If someone had told you in 1962 that a black man would be

president... :D

[sarge43]

26. "That some very serious shit you're smoking."

Inspite of what some people think, when things start to change, they change fast.

[mainer]

110. And the green chick was certainly sexually liberated

She didn't let societal mores get in her way.

[JerseygirlCT]

5. You know, I found myself so within the confines of the show

I grew up with that this didn't scream at me.

But you are absolutely correct. Would have been good to see some pants on the women, and more women in leadership positions.

[Captain Hilts]

6. It's a dilemma for us Trek fans, isn't it?

I mean, I like Uhuru. Hell, I liked 7o9, but I HATED their outfits.

I realize the goal was to re-create the series that was a function of its day.

But it still stings.

[JerseygirlCT]

8. No, you're right.

And I do remember, even as a kid watching the show, thinking about that issue. (Alongside of wondering why the girls at my Catholic school had to wear skirts. What stupid attire for kids in school! I had more skinned knees and ruined tights...).

[ejpoeta]

36. been there done that with the uniform. though my sister said i should have been thankful

i could wear navy blue pants as they didn't even have that option just a few years before i was there. it is something else. and i have remarked about the sexist nature of the star trek series. and i haven't seen the new movie, but i think for the times perhaps it was a big step forward for women. though the outfits were a bit much. the only way they could show as much as they could without having the girls friggin naked, i guess.

[mainer]

111. Those outfits remind me of the old PSA flight attendant miniskirts

I think it was simply a reflection of the times. Does anyone here still remember PSA, with those pink/orange miniskirts and boots? Or am I just getting too old?

[Captain Hilts]

156. I remember Braniff Airlines' outifts...Here are Braniff and PSA...

[mainer]

231. "PSA gives you a lift" (???)

Oh. My. God. I didn't remember that little gem. That's almost as bad as Continental's "We really move our tail for you."

[IDFbunny]

10. I'm glad prudes didn't ruin it.

[Captain Hilts]

13. "Prudes?"

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. This article is correct.

Obviously Spock should have been a homosexual black female vegan er... Vulcan. Whatever. Please wake me when this is over.

[Captain Hilts]

9. Thanks for a man's opinion of what should be of interest/concern to women.

White people don't get away with 'hey black folks - get over it!'

For good reason.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

14. It's a remake of something that was cast over forty years ago...

...and had, for its time, a highly diverse cast. This is pathetic nonsense.

[Captain Hilts]

31. We've acknowledged that and even said we enjoyed the film. Chill. nt

[Fumesucker]

23. Let me know when women stop weighing in on circumcision threads..

I find it particularly disgusting when women advocate circumcision.

[Captain Hilts]

32. I don't blame you for feeling that way one bit. nt

[seabeyond]

42. though i think opinion is allowed, i too dont tell a guy how they should feel, what they

should do with their body.

having two boys, i just didnt have a place in the decision and gave to hubby

[Captain Hilts]

44. Exactly. There you go!

[Skittles]

191. yes - we just need to pop 'em out and let the men decide

[Fumesucker]

201. Yes, I think the men should decide..

When they become legally of age to make that decision for themselves.

[Skittles]

217. well now you know how we gals feel

when men decide, oh, almost everything for us

[Fumesucker]

218. I have a daughter and two granddaughters.

I raised my daughter to think for herself and she most certainly does, in fact her psychological type on the MBTI is ENTJ "the field marshal" and the phrase associated with that type is "I'm sorry you have to die".

I also have a big hand in raising my grandkids and they are getting the same lessons from me, my daughter and my son in law.

If you are letting someone else decide something for you in America then that is entirely your own fault. There are more women than men in the USA, they live longer and vote in larger numbers.

[Skittles]

220. a woman has never been president

and 10 percent of the House and Senate is female - so like it or not, men are still in charge

[Fumesucker]

223. What part of "Women vote in greater numbers than men" do you fail to understand?

If women would vote for women then women would be in power.

But you don't.

Women couldn't possibly do any worse running the country than the men have, what's holding you back?

[Captain Hilts]

252. Women are not a voting bloc at all. Nearly half voted for GWB in '04. nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

227. I do too and I'm a woman.

I've experienced the differences in feeling during intercourse, and it's majorly better with a ragtop.

[Love Bug]

248. Actually, Spock was a vegan

[girl gone mad]

12. It is a movie.

The goal is to get butts in seats by whatever means necessary. I haven't seen the film yet, but I'd wager there's at least one gratuitous shirtless scene with one of the male leads, too.

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. Kirk in boxer shorts so we got legs too. Yeah, it was a yummy few seconds.

[Captain Hilts]

33. Boxers are sexy?

[Pacifist Patriot]

41. The legs and chest poking out of them were.

Frankly it took me a moment to realize what exactly he was wearing. They were not of the baggy variety.

[buzzycrumbhunger]

171. Yes.

:)

[Kalyke]

117. I'm guessing the male butts in seats will far, far, far outnumber the

female butts in seats.

I know some women like this show, but the fan base is still very much mostly male.

I have no inclination to see it one way or the other, but my husband does. I guess he'll take our son. I'd rather watch a movie about real space exploration. :shrug:

[Pacifist Patriot]

208. I'm curious what other people's experiences were, but when I saw the movie...

there were easily as many females in the audience as males.

ETA: My husband didn't watch any Star Trek until I introduced him to it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

214. Yep, I went with my Mom

We're both huge TNG and DS9 fans. It's sad how the stereotype that the only people who like science fiction are frumpy single men persists even on a progressive messageboard.

[RomanHoliday]

15. It's better than most summer superhero blockbusters..

.. where every woman has to be saved after being thrown off a building.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Goddammit

I'm a huge Sci-fi fan, but not a big Star trek fan. I've heard the movie is fantastic, and I (stupidly) assumed the same tired old gender roles would be laid to rest. You know, even Heinlein, who I got tired of by the time I was, oh, 30, at least made strong attempts at sexually equality (even if it was always the old white male fucker, who, in the end who got laid the most)

The best Sci-fi --and this is mere opinion I know-- that manages to make gender less cookie cutter are the ones that introduce intraspecies sex and/or relationships as in Cherryh or Butler. Take the human out the equation to get people to SEE. Or, The simple introduction of gay characters that happen to be human first and gay next always adds dimension to sci-fi. (However, Let it be known that Le Guin is a Goddess to me)

I'm reading Kim Stanley Robinson's Mar's trilogy right now. I've never read it, from what I understand this man has unusually great insight into the human condition, whether it's sex, politics, progressive ecological thinking or gender roles. We'll see.

Star Trek. Ah well. Same old shit

[Subdivisions]

53. delete wrong place

[NeedleCast]

146. Off Topic...Mars Trilogy Was an interesting but tough read

My problem with most of the characters in Robinson's Mars trilogy was that so many of them were (to me) unlikable. They're all (I think intentionally) so unwaivering in their convictions that they become charicatures of themselves. The first time I read that series I stopped halfway through the 2nd book because I just couldn't take it anymore.

Many years later I started over with Red Mars and intended to try and read the series straight through again. I quickly realized that I still didn't like many of the characters and that it would be best to take a break and read other things between Mars trilogy books.

[ismnotwasm]

155. Hey, thanks

I just started them, attracted to the hard science, the different political approach and the promise of the a strong ecological dimension. I did understand the characters kinda waver from being good-guy bad guy (from wikipedia!) So far, a third into the first one, it's ok, although I nearly put it down after the first chapter.

It's quite possible I won't like them, I usually don't like books focusing on the ways people can be assholes, I can step outside my house for that-- but I love the science parts so far.

[roguevalley]

175. one person's sexism is another person's traditional salute. Go see

the movie and enjoy. It is an updated sixties artifact. I wore minis and LOVED them. All my age group did. They were cute and sexy and were LIBERATING, not sexist. I remember seeing lips curl in the olders and the conservatives so I know it was an in your face thing to do wearing them. This writer needs to suck it in my opinion. I remember the first show on the first day when it debuted (doc and the salt monster ep) and it was astounding how different and cutting edge it was. I guess you had to be there.

[Pacifist Patriot]

210. It's sexy, not sexist. Fun movie. Go see it.

[ismnotwasm]

243. Oh, I'm gonna

But I'd like to see a bit of a comparative dress code, like hot men in Kilts. I love kilts on men. (Or, off topic, that little traditional skirt thing certain Pacific Islander men wear)

[dysfunctional press]

17. no...OLD trek depicts a sexist future...

new trek just uses the same template.

[Kitty Herder]

20. That's essentially what I was going to say. But, damn...

couldn't they have at least let the women wear the unisex uniforms from the two pilot episodes? It's just plain embarrassing that anyone ever thought military women would be forced to dress like that in the 23rd century. I feel terribly embarrassed for them whenever I watch an old Trek episode. (Haven't seen the new movie yet.) I'm also embarrassed for all womankind that women actually wore skirts like that in the sixties. My mom has some old ones in her closet that look like they wouldn't fit a seven-year old, they're so short.

[dysfunctional press]

29. ...

:eyes:

"I'm also embarrassed for all womankind that women actually wore skirts like that in the sixties."

it was their choice to do so.

[Captain Hilts]

47. The social pressures - to this day - on what women wear and what it 'says' about them

are HUGE.

If you didn't wear stuff like that people thought you were 'uptight', conservative, a lesbian or a prude.

[dysfunctional press]

118. yep.

it definitely says A LOT about people who cave in to societal pressures to conform in ways they don't want to.

and what it says isn't good.

[Mari333]

51. and I was an IDIOT at the age of 17

standing at a bus stop in winter in MI wearing a micro mini skirt...the frigging wind would blow and there I was, Moron of the Century, my pantyhose frozen to my legs, icicles forming on my vayjay..
thank you god, for the Wisdom of Ageing.

[seabeyond]

63. fashion world has a BIG part of saying what we wear. last 8 yrs clothes ugly

have to replace those jeans sometime. yet the only jeans provided for us to buy have the stretchy shit and dirty looking. damn impossible to get a pair of jeans or a shirt that fits. ALL t shirts made to small.

[Captain Hilts]

66. Sing it to me, baby! A friend of mine just went shopping to find something to wear

to: a wedding, a confirmation and a bat mitzvah. She was horrified by what she found.

The complete absence of classic styles that could be tailored - as men's clothes are offered - and the substitution of stretchy fabrics to 'fit' all body types poorly - is a rant I could go on for days.

Women's clothes are designed for the most exceptional of shapes and fit few people correctly. We'll rant about screwy 'sizes' some other day.

But the idea that you have NO IDEA what you'll find when you go shopping for clothes is yet another way that the fashion industry insists on wasting our time and our money. A man can go to a shop, find something he wants and have it tailored to fit him, in 15 mins and he can wear it for YEARS. Because of standardization of sizes, a woman can do this for him. He just has to put it on and complain about how uncomfortable it is wearing a tie.

[seabeyond]

71. hubby been wearing button up 501 from day one. 3 decades later, same pant

i cant find a pair of jeans....

bull shit.

[Captain Hilts]

74. I shop in the men's dept. for pants, actually.

I've had no problem with fit and if I did, the waistbands are designed to be tailored.

I know a lot of women - and blacks, actually - can't wear men's pants.

[Kitty Herder]

190. Shopping for clothes makes me vow to sew my own from now on. However,

trying to find fabric that isn't meant for quilting makes me change my mind again fast.

[dysfunctional press]

116. "damn impossible to get a pair of jeans or a shirt that fits. ALL t shirts made to small."

i don't have any problems finding decent jeans at good prices, and i need a 36" inseam, which aren't always easy to come by- but i buy almost all my jeans on ebay.

as far as t-shirts being made too small- try buying a larger size. i'm normally an xl- but i buy xxl t-shirts.

[Kitty Herder]

188. You're profile says you're male.

So I assume you haven't been shopping for women's clothes. However, if you have, there's nothing wrong with that.

[dysfunctional press]

205. actually, i do buy a lot of my wife's clothes.

she's partial to seven-for-all-mankind jeans- and i usually pick them up for her on ebay as well. i also do a lot of clearance stuff- at kohl's last week i found two cashmere sweaters for her at 90% off(originally $140, they were $14 each)- they're men's medium size, but they run small, and fit her the way she likes them to. they've already been packed away for next fall.
i've bought her several skirts this year as well, and a few other tops. i know her sizes and her 'style', so it's easy for me to find her things. i also get her to try things she would never buy for herself- but that she ends up really liking- but, i do also wind up getting the occasional 'clunker' that needs to be returned for lack of want.

[Pacifist Patriot]

242. Well damn, I need to get you to do my shopping.

You sound like a heck of a bargain hunter and I cannot abide shopping, for clothes or anything else.

[dysfunctional press]

263. i don't really enjoy "shopping", but i like finding bargains- and i've learned where to look.

a few weeks ago i found & bought a brand new $260 kitchenaid stand mixer for $85 on a "clearance" end-cap display at target. the only thing it was missing was the box and instructions/owner's manual(which i was able to download for free). another time i got a GIANT sized lava lamp for $15 on one of their clearance end-caps.

when i go to kohl's, my first stop is always the clearance racks as well. this summer i'll be wearing all the $2 bermuda shorts i bought there last fall.

[damonm]

104. And also in the 80s and 90s

See Ally McBeal...

[Kitty Herder]

186. Dude, don't roll your eyes at me.

I wore nothin' but jeans growing up. (Well, I admit it. I wore a denim mini-skirt a couple of times in the eighties when I was thirteen, but got freaky leers from forty-year-old men in response. It scared me out of dressing like that for life. Except in private with someone I love. ;) There, anything goes.)

So yeah, my mom's old miniskirts and the Star Trek uniforms have always seemed ridiculous to me. It's a generational thing.

And yes, women technically had a choice, but it was not a real choice at all. Either wear the miniskirts that are in fashion, or be considered a prude with no fashion sense and be an outcast. Especially in high school, where my mom was when miniskirts were in style. We women are judged harshly for what we wear. People think I'm horrible because I refuse to wear high heels to dress up, but it ain't worth the pain to me.

[Captain Hilts]

197. A lot of guys are rolling their eyes in this thread. nt

[Kitty Herder]

203. Most men are still assholes when it comes to women's equality.

And most of them don't even know they are. It's sad. Even many of the democrats here who should know better are sexists and don't even try to pretend otherwise.

[dysfunctional press]

211. don't make comments that warrant it, then...

the simple secret- don't be a slave to fashion, and don't worry about what other people think about your appearance. if you're happy with the way you look, that should be the end of it.

"We women are judged harshly for what we wear."

only by other women- you do it to yourselves, so stop complaining and stop trying to appease anyone but yourself.

[Kitty Herder]

219. That's right. You're a man so you obviously know more about women's lives than women do.

Yes, women are judged by other women for what we wear. But we are also judged by men. Don't kid yourself. And men largely control what we wear. Who the fuck do you think decided that the women on Star Trek should dress like whores? Male network execs. Who decides that female cops on t.v. should wear hobbling high heels? The same. Who dresses women like little whore dolls for movies? Male movie producers. Who owns most of the clothing companies that produce nothing but uncomfortable and impractical clothing for women? Men. Who calls women who don't dress like whores dykes, prudes or rednecks? (Well, actually both sexes do that last one equally.)

I had an ex-boyfriend who guilted me into wearing hooker-style high heels and a corset in public for his enjoyment. "Why won't you dress up for me? Don't I deserve to see you look nice? I like it when you dress for me, in what I like. I bought these for you. " Mother-fucking sadist. I dumped his ass and vowed never to allow myself to be manipulated like that again. So, yeah, men do try to control what women wear.

I'm not a slave to fashion by any stretch of the imagination. I put a premium on comfort and if people don't like it, they can fuck off. But I pay a price for it in lost social status. I can understand why some women give in to societal pressures to dress a certain way.

And, yes, the styles in the sixties were silly and I find them embarrassing. That's how I feel about it because I'm NOT a slave to fashion, and I believe in practical clothing. If you think that's eye-roll worthy, tough shit.

[dysfunctional press]

240. women only think that they're being judged by men regarding what they wear.

the average guy doesn't really care one whit. women project their own judgemental attitudes onto men, and assume that they must be seeing them in the same ways that women see/judge each other. and don't kid yourself either about who 'controls' fashion- the guys who own the companies only care about the money to be made- the 'fashion' decisions are mostly made by female executives.

"And, yes, the styles in the sixties were silly and I find them embarrassing."

and yet- they were all about women expressing themselves and a rebellion against the status quo, and were driven by WOMEN'S choices, not men's.


oh- i almost forgot...:eyes:

[sarge43]

90. Believe or not, minis were considered liberating.

Compared to the ghastly restrictive overprocessed clothing of the '50's (don't get me started on the undergarments - Mother of God), minis were a breakout. And MoG again, people did have hizzies, another Decline and Fall in making. Women being frankly sexy instead of cloyingly suggestive; we won't survive to the end of the century!

[JHB]

108. Nichelle Nichols talks about her costume (BBC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/st/interviews/nichols/page6.shtml

How did you feel about your costume. It was very revealing.

So? I was wearing them on the street. What's wrong with wearing them in the air? I wore 'em on airplanes. It was the era of the miniskirt. Everybody wore miniskirts.

It amazes me that people still make some remark about 'the revealing'. They revealed nothing. I had long black stockings on and boots up to my knees and the skirts and panties on and a skirt that gave you freedom to move in, - so what?

It amazes me because everything is more revealing today on the street than those costumes.

How did you feel when you first saw it?

Well I hated the colour, that was all. It was kind of a pea green. Gene hated the colour also, and so he called Bill Theiss in and told him he wanted to change that costume, and um, - so I think I wore that pea green thing for a couple of episodes and then they changed to that beautiful red.

I thought that Bill Theiss did a pretty good job except for the ruffles around the guy's pants. I didn't like the ruffles around the guy's pants.
---------------------------------------------------

I recall from another interview that she hated her cotumes for the first and second movies because they had her in slacks, and insisted they come up with a skirted uniform for her in subsequent appearances.

[Egnever]

114. Many here have no concept whatsoever of the times.

Appreciation of history I think is something that comes with age.

[Captain Hilts]

163. I saw TOS first go 'round. People that don't agree with you aren't necessarily ignorant. nt

[Captain Hilts]

34. Yeah, we understand that. But it would have been nice to putUhuru in something a bit more practical

[dysfunctional press]

45. not in my opinion...

:evilgrin:

[Pacifist Patriot]

209. I'm beginning to think we should put an end to this and just make a Naked Star Trek

If there isn't a uniform, you can't argue about it, right?

[dysfunctional press]

255. i'm of the same opinion when it comes to competetive figure-skating...

it would certainly help to bring more straight male fans to the sport-
if only to watch nicole bobeck doing a camel-spin.
although, if they tuned in when todd eldredge was doing a sit-spin, it could have the opposite effect.

[Egnever]

112. Not in the context of when it was filmed

looking back at it now sure it does but at the time it was shot a womans place was in the home barefoot and pregnant.

[dysfunctional press]

167. "at the time it was shot a womans place was in the home barefoot and pregnant"

you might want to take another look thru the wayback machine there, sherman...

the original series was filmed from 1966-1969- the height of the haight- look at the colors used- the sets and the angles of some of the shots...the costumes...the tribbles- it's all very 'trippy' and kind of a counter-culture view of the future, albeit in a militaristic authoritarian kind of way. the mini-skirts and green slave-girl fit right in with the feel of the 'free love' era that was also happening at the time. and- didn't kirk and uhuru share tv's first interracial kiss...?

[Captain Hilts]

179. Yes, they did. When was the inter-racial kiss first aired? Anybody know?

I know that Sidney Portier and Katharine Houghton got death threats for theirs in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner.

[dysfunctional press]

185. kirk also got the first interspecial kiss...

with that green slave chick.

[Captain Hilts]

195. Orion slave girls.

[renegade000]

18. People who aren't big trek fans may not know this

so I'll just throw this out as an interesting tidbit.

The original pilot episode of Star Trek, "The Cage", had a female second-in-command named Number One, who wore a standard unisex uniform instead of the ubiquitous miniskirts we see in all the other episodes.

What happened? The NBC executives thought this pilot was too cerebral and didn't like that a woman was in such a powerful position on the ship, so they ordered a new pilot episode. I would assume they also wanted the miniskirts to sex things up.

[Captain Hilts]

35. Yep. That is indeed correct. nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

40. A lot of people also don't know the part was written for Majel Barrett

who became Roddenberry's second wife.

Besides playing Number One in "The Cage" she played

Nurse Christine Chapel: Original Series
Lt. M'Ress: The Animated Series
Doctor Christine Chapel: Several of the movies
Lwaxana Troi: Next Generation
Voiced the Ship and Federation Computers in: NG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise AND completed the voice work on this new movie before her death in December.

She will always be the spine of Star Trek to me. How ironic. Such a supposedly sexist show that has a strong and much loved woman at it's core. And how cool is it that Majel and Gene's ashes are going to be sent into space?

[sarge43]

49. Yup. She was XO, second most important job.

Captain's backup and oversees the daily running of the ship. Mid-sixties, no wonder the suits back pedaled and, yes, the minis were their idea.

[Political Heretic]

21. Same as the rest of star trek - what else is new?

[and-justice-for-all]

22. Its a fictional film, relax...damn...nt

[slay]

24. My thoughts exactly

Not every film has to be some great feminist feel goodery. While of course I think women and men should be treated as equals - it's just a movie people - lighten up.

[Captain Hilts]

48. We've said we enjoyed the film. But the messages that popular culture send ARE important.

We love Trek and enjoyed this film, but it's not 'just a fictional film' it's an important part of popular culture.

[druidity33]

25. the men pretty much wear tights...

So this person talking about skirts is being a little disingenuous. The movie was made for people in our time. You'll notice that all the men wear very tight fitting clothing. And in the old show, Kirk used to appear shirtless nearly every episode. The whole series was built around sex... because, hey guess what? Sex sells! People who make movies are out to make (gasp), money!


Besides, what about Captain Janeway?


:shrug:

[tomreedtoon]

27. And the tights were as impractical as the miniskirts.

There are no pockets in Star Trek. Wearing such tight pants prevents that kind of design. That's why the phasers and tricorders had to be designed to hang from belts. That was a point made by Babylon 5 almost incidentally.

As far as the sexism, can I direct you guys to the science fiction movies of the 1950's? The only function women played in those movies were incidental proof that all the men in the movie weren't gay. These parts were usually portrayed washed-up actresses with some degree of attractiveness left and no other career options. Appearing in something like 12 to the Moon was considered a career-ender.

The idea of there being sexually attractive women in a science fiction show was one of the most thrilling aspects of the series. We geeks can never, ever get to know girls; most of us can't even talk to them without fear. The idea that an attractive woman might, somehow, be willing to be NEAR geeky guys or the heroes geeky guys idolize was one of the most hopeful things about Star Trek: The Original Series.

[jakeXT]

151. I remember watching Trekkies where this smart-aleck mentioned they had to change the uniforms in DS9

because the actors had back pain or something.

[Captain Hilts]

162. No, they're not wearing tights. nt

[druidity33]

194. how not? nt

[MedleyMisty]

28. As a woman born in 1980 who strongly believes in gender equality

I watched the original series in reruns when I was in middle school and I realize that the new movie is based on the original series - same characters with the same ethnicities and the same sort of uniforms. Go back in time and complain to Gene Roddenberry and/or network executives if you want that to change.

Spoilers from here on, just a warning.




Actually, my thoughts on the matter were "Cool, Uhura gets to say and do stuff that doesn't directly pertain to her job." Like the article says - she was established as a strong and independent woman. I don't see how her affections for Spock changes that.

I have a husband. We don't plan on ever having kids and he's certainly not in a position of power and actually he does most of the cooking and housework, but I suppose I only married him to procreate and to get by in the world because apparently no one actually loves each other. I don't know - maybe same sex partners get to actually like each other. But if you're a straight female, you have to be a nun.

Sigh - there's just so much other stuff you could use to make this point. And it's a good point. But if you point to a remake of a show from the 60s that tried to stay true to its roots in the 60s - while giving Uhura a lot more to do and a larger role than I remember her having in the original series and movies - and say that it's sexist, it doesn't really help.

It's also a very privileged viewpoint - for women who aren't white and/or middle class at the least, sexism is much more real and present in their lives and they don't need to go looking for it in a movie that is based on a show that, while progressive for its time, was made in the 60s and so is going to appear sexist to people now.

[Kitty Herder]

182. Don't blame Roddenberry.

His original pilot included a woman as the first officer (Majel Barrett) and had unisex, practical uniforms on everyone.

The network execs told him to lose the woman and the martian. He says he "married the woman and kept the Martian." I assume the network execs were responsible for the horrendous uniforms, and much of the rest of the sexism as well.

I still love Star Trek, though. And Hell, most movies and t.v. shows are sexist, even now, with women playing supporting roles for the most part. :puke:

[Pacifist Patriot]

37. Seems she and I didn't see quite the same movie.

Yes, yes, I saw the miniskirts. Fashions come and go. Skirt lengths go up and down. And when you're creating a retro piece you do tend to look to the original for inspiration.

I loved that Uhura is a freaking genius and totally did not fall for Kirk's charm.

I thought the fact that she and Spock were together was fabulous and in no way indicates she "needs a man" to be a complete character. Does this author not have a significant other with whom she can share her joys and sorrows?

The creators of this movie were working with a specific set of characters. In my opinion, forcing diversity by making one of the characters gratuitously gay would have seemed ridiculous. I don't like the idea of having to have a "token" anything.

She could use a good scroll down the cast list at IMDB. It's not exactly a WASP convention in the making.

Goodness woman, did you not see the diversity with all the token aliens sprinkled here and there? I didn't notice any non-humans in command positions. Maybe we should be ticked off about the human-centrism of the piece.

As a woman born in 1968 I can think of more serious injustices over which to get my knickers in a twist.

[damonm]

102. "I can think of more serious injustices over which to get my knickers in a twist"

:rofl:
:yourock:
I am SO stealing this...

[Pacifist Patriot]

119. Just as long as you don't steal my knickers.

I suppose it would completely irk this author that I brought up Star Trek in my sermon on Sunday. How many times have you heard the full text of the Prime Directive from the pulpit?

[damonm]

127. Not often.

But I HAVE heard a minister quote from "All I Really Needed to Know I Learned by Watching Star Trek".
And if you've seen/read any Harry Potter, you'll be struck by how much the Harry/Hermione/Ron triad resembles Kirk, Spock and McCoy.

[Pacifist Patriot]

136. Except Spock and McCoy don't end up married with children.

Though in an alternative history anything IS possible.

[damonm]

153. There IS that... n/t

[Orsino]

39. I did want Uhura to be much more than a girlfriend.

This new role, though, is a huge step up from mere radio operator. I'll hope to see her act more like an officer in sequels.

She doesn't have to kick ass--I just want to see her lead.

[sarge43]

46. I want to see her take over command.

Next to Kirk and Spock she's the ranking officer on the bridge.

[Subdivisions]

57. Well then...

Go back to the original series, produced at a time when such a thing was a lot less likely than it is today:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Nyota_Uhura">From Memory Alpha

-snip-

On stardate 5483.7, the male Enterprise crew was incapacitated by the "siren's song" of Taurus II's female population, necessitating Uhura to take command of the ship. She and Nurse Christine Chapel led a landing party to rescue Captain Kirk, first officer Spock and Dr. McCoy. (TAS: "The Lorelei Signal")

-snip-

In 2270, Uhura was again temporarily in command of the bridge when the Enterprise lost contact with Kirk and Spock, half of the ships' contact party, while exploring the surface of Delta Theta III. Per Kirk's orders of avoiding unnecessary risks, she ordered engineer Montgomery Scott and Sulu, the other half of the contact party, to reboard the ship, contrary to their attempt to locate the Spock and the captain. (TAS: "Bem")

-snip-

In 2285, Uhura was assigned to the transporter room at Old City Station per her own request. During the planned rescue attempt of Spock from the Genesis Planet, Uhura played an instrumental role of illegally transporting Admiral Kirk and company to the Enterprise prior to its theft. (Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)

In the scene featuring Uhura's posting at Old City Station, Uhura is seen wearing a black skirt with her uniform rather than the otherwise standard black slacks worn by other female personnel. This costume design was made at the request of Nichelle Nichols, and honored by costume designer Robert Fletcher especially for that one scene.

Kirk and his senior staff succeeded in saving Spock, and Uhura met up with her crewmates on Vulcan. Along with the rest of the crew she traveled back to the year 1986 aboard a Klingon Bird-of-Prey – which they named the HMS Bounty – to retrieve two humpback whales to save the planet Earth from an alien probe. While in 20th century San Francisco, Uhura and Pavel Chekov transported aboard the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise to acquire high-energy photons from its reactor core. Upon their return to the 23rd century, she was among the crew charged with the theft of the Enterprise. However, all charges against them were dropped because they had saved the planet. She was reassigned to communications aboard the USS Enterprise-A. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home)

-snip-

[sarge43]

70. I was thinking only of ST: OS

Her role certainly expanded in the films.

[Subdivisions]

77. Ummm...the times she took command of the Enterprise was in

the original 1960s TV show. Didn't you read my post?

[sarge43]

83. Yes I did.

You didn't reference any ST: OS episodes, only TAS and some films, which is why I say what I did.

Now let's both jerk down our tunics and stop scoring off on one another.

[Subdivisions]

88. You're right. There's been so many incarnations of ST that I didn't

notice until now that the episodes I referenced from Memory Alpha are from TAS. I do, however, remember that Uhura was a integral part of ST: OS and, if my memory serves, there were occasions where she took command of the ship or played an important part in saving the crew from certain disaster. But I'm too embarrassed at my gaffe to care about it anymore right now.

[sarge43]

92. No problem, Sub.

As noted up thread in the time of ST: OS she did play an important role by just being there, doing a vital job and being treated as a professional.

If we want to analyze sexism on board the Big E, Yeoman Rand would be a far better subject.

[Captain Hilts]

60. But neither she nor Spock are line officers. nt

[sarge43]

64. She is a line officer. Only medics, lawyers and chaplains are non-line.

A non-liner wouldn't have a bridge duty.

[Captain Hilts]

93. That's not the case in the USN. Non-line do have bridge duty. nt

[sarge43]

258. OK

Why are the communication and science specialties designated non-line and engineering, navigation, and helm are not?

If that is so, why does Spock frequently take command of the ship and Uruha wouldn't or couldn't? She ranks Sulu and Chekov, but it's always "Chekov/Sulu take the conn."

Yes, I know the real world answer. Mid 60's no one would accept even a fictional woman commanding a ship in battle or even in routine situation.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. the article is odd...says only 4 women with speaking roles

but does not count Uhura, so that makes 5...
I've not seen the film yet, but if they missed the chance to push the envelope like Gene did with the first rounds, they are missing an essential element of the show that is not so easily mimicked.
I've seen on this thread a reference to the original Number One of Gene's pilot...but let's not forget he did get Uhura on that bridge. Easy today to see her as a mini skirt with few lines, but back then, she was in fact a black woman with rank, Lt Uhura. Not private, not nurse, not white, not male. Back then, this was not nothing. It was even, one could say, subversive. Uhura was not the network's favorite color, nor gender. She outranked white men on that bridge, and trust me, that was noticed by some folks back then.
It is even easy to forget that Chekov being Russian was provocative, as that was the height of cold war, the Russians were our only rivals in space. The idea that we were working with them was not an everyday concept at the time. Like having an Iranian in charge of the power plant in today's terms.
So in the day, Trek original was far more groundbreaking than it might seem to today's eye. I was hoping to see some of that spirit in the new film as well.

[whopis01]

95. Nor does it count any of the other women who speak in the movie...

Albeit briefly, like the one telling McCoy to sit down and shut up, or the one assisting Kirk's mother during the birth.

[whopis01]

98. Oh - and how could I forget - Majel Barrett Rodenberry as the ship's computer. n/t

[alarimer]

50. Almost all of the so-called blockbuster films are like this.

Every single one.

Hollywood shoves sexism down our throats every single day. Women are eye-candy or the mother. That's pretty much it in most movies today, certainly most popular movies. Things are different in indie films I suppose.

This is exactly why mass culture sucks. It is sexist, maybe even racist. Not to mention most books, movies, music that is popular just sucks.

They sell us this shit to anesthetize us so we won't question things and rebel too much.

[seabeyond]

55. the herion of late is the stripper/prostitute with the heart of gold

that little scenerio has done died for me. old, fast

[Manifestor_of_Light]

230. Women are to be exploited or assaulted or killed.

And then disposed of and ignored. They are hookers or they are women who wear glasses (playing a scientist) who cannot be trusted. The ones with glasses obviously have never had good sex, and that's all they need to be turned into lusty women. The ones who are not 110 lbs and stunning are ignored. Except for Judi Dench as "M", James Bond's boss, who gets a minute or two of screen time in each movie.

Men in suits are what's important in movies. Women are to be stalked, slapped, drilled into and tortured (Body Double) or just used for arm candy and then killed in an explosion (Batman:TDK).

I get sick of the movies where women are objectified too. People generally identify with a character of their gender at movies. I wondered why they killed off the girlfriend in Batman so soon -- there went the identification with probably 40 percent of the audience.

Or they are vacuous and ditzy -- shown as gold-digging materialistic shrieking Muffies (Sex and the City).

The last movies I saw where women were main characters were The Hours and Vera Drake.

Even in Borat, with the fat black lady who was a prostitute, Borat took her out and danced with her and treated her nicely. And Borat was not known for being kind and sensitive in that movie!!

[Mari333]

52. movies that sell to 12-25 yr old males. pfft. nt

[Subdivisions]

54. Can't anyone watch a fucking movie anymore just for the

entertainment of it? Does anyone really, REALLY, think that Abrams, the writers, or the producers consciously and purposely engaged in sexism and excluded gay characters or actors? How does that work in production meetings?

I watched the entire film without ever thinking about what was going on outside the door of that cinema. Why must we always tear these things apart looking for the PC in them? For fuck's sake! This Trek movie is damn good escapism. Just watch the goddamned thing and relax!

[Captain Hilts]

59. Why the anger? We've said we like Trek and this movie. So you're okay with men as the cultural

'default' in our society. Great.

We just don't think it would have been difficult to put Uhura in something less scanty, that's all.

[seabeyond]

62. sit down, lower eyes, and shut up. dontcha know.

actually not having seen the movie, i am not really a part of this conversation. it is the extended part of conversation i find interesting

[Subdivisions]

69. Sit down, lower eyes, and shut up? n/t

[seabeyond]

73. "I'm saying is just watch the damn movie". kinda like this

nice of you to provide exactly what i was saying

[Subdivisions]

78. Ok, answer me this:

Why can't we just watch a movie without ripping it apart?

You know what, forget it. I should've know better.

[seabeyond]

85. no, obviously you dont know better.... why?

well, i really dont care about this particular movie, as has been pointed out, a remake of the old so kinda has to be that way. but why do discriminated groups get pissed about it? it is thru out our culture and fed to the people and actually effects our behavior and thought process. and though we like to say that movie, society as a whole, culture, ads, ect... a continue feeding of the submission of female really has nothing to do with our behavior, it is bullshit. it absolutely conditions us. hence all the money into commercials

but i am mostly just playing on this thread.

[Subdivisions]

65. Not angry at all. And, since I'm not sitting in a seat inside a

movie theater actively escaping societal ills, no I not ok with men as the cultural default in said society.

What I'm saying is just watch the damn movie.

[Captain Hilts]

68. We should just shut up and watch the damned movie? Okay. Why are you in this thread?

[Subdivisions]

75. Please show me where I said shut up? All I'm saying is

the notion that sexism was somehow purposely made a thread in the fabric of this film is simply preposterous. I'm asking why people can't just watch the film for what it is, ENTERTAINMENT. That's all.

I should've known better to get involved in this thread. I give up.

[IDFbunny]

149. Are you with the Taliban Modesty Police?

Of course it would have been easy to dress Uhura up more, but why? She's hot and I'm paying for lusty space adventure.

[jfkraus]

56. Please remember...

this movie takes place chronologically before the first series, so why would you expect things to be more advanced? It's...illogical.

[Captain Hilts]

61. Yes, we've noted that. And we love Trek and TOS. nt

[knitter4democracy]

58. Don't worry--Capt. Janeway is coming.

Personally, my favorite captain in the Star Trek saga. This is a throwback movie to the first series (which was sexist), but if they ever get around to making a movie of Janeway, it'll be entirely different.

[Subdivisions]

67. Yep. She seems to have gotten lost in the Star Trek sexism outrage.

She even wore slacks.

[Captain Hilts]

76. Voyager and DS9, and Enterprise just fade away compared to TOS and TNG. They're

not a big part of culture and most folks couldn't name either Sisko, James Earl Jones lite and Janeway, Katharine Hepburn lite.

DS9 and Voyager were shown on channel 387 and have not been featured in big screen movies as a result.

[knitter4democracy]

80. Voyager was constantly on re-runs here until a year ago.

I must've watched the entire series five or six times over.

I think it's because DS9 and Voyager went on a totally new tangent. DS9 became very soap-opera-like and difficult to follow with the constant twists and turns in the plot, and I think most trekkies never gave Voyager a real chance. Voyager was a much better show overall and closer to the original series in tone than NextGen was.

[Captain Hilts]

82. Wash DC, interestingly, gave Voyager its highest ratings. I thought it was most like TOS

than the others.

But DS9 and Voyager were always being pre-empted for local sports broadcasts and were on high channels, so they never really permeated popular culture as TOS or TNG did, no matter how unwatchable the first two years of TNG were!

[Regret My New Name]

107. I never liked Deep Space 9, myself.

My step-father watched TNG, so I passively watched that. I like Voyager and watched that on my own accord.. Same goes for Enterprise.

[Captain Hilts]

164. I didn't like DS9 either. nt

[FailureToCommunicate]

238. I'm surprised. There were some GREAT characters: Odo, Quark, Garak, the Cardassian "tailor"

and others. Sure some weeks were slow but there were many many good episodes, IMO.

[Captain Hilts]

253. I couldn't stand the Ferengi or the weird religious stuff. nt

[knitter4democracy]

79. She was kick-ass!

She's the only captain who really defeated the Borg queen, too. Picard only did with Data's help, but Janeway did using her wiles and tricked the queen into destroying herself. Much, much better.

I love the last episode. Classic Janeway. All the guys are rushing to defend Earth, and she takes care of it herself. Heh.

[Captain Hilts]

84. I prefer 'Year of Hell' Janeway. nt

[glitch]

72. Mine too - 60 posts on this thread and only two mention Janeway?

Interesting.

[knitter4democracy]

81. I wonder if the essay writer ever saw Voyager.

Maybe she's only seen the older stuff on re-runs? :shrug:

[Captain Hilts]

86. It was shown in England, but not on the same schedule, and it was satellite, I believe. nt

[glitch]

161. Maybe. I do seem to recall Voyager not getting the same respect as the others.

I liked it.

[Pacifist Patriot]

121. I seem to remember plenty of female Admirals in bit parts as well.

[sarge43]

199. A couple of times, quite substantial roles.

TNG "Drumhead". Jean Simmons played a retired admiral, once head of Star Fleet Legal, who is on board the E to investigate possible sabotage and turns the thing into a witch hunt with Picard as the target. One of TNG's better efforts.

I firmly believe once TNG was established, Stewart called the gang in England and told them get over here. "It's easy, the money's good and they treat you like God on earth."

[TCJ70]

87. I like how just because something's not shown, it's not possible...

...or non-existent. This movie is working with a template created 40 years ago, based on a cast that, believe it or not, was ahead of its time. It shows the story of seven characters in a vast universe. It would have been inappropriate to take main characters and make significant changes to their standing on the ship.

[flvegan]

89. It's just a movie. That, or I'm going to be Spiderman.

[seabeyond]

94. so, we put a pit bull following stereotype of vicious and out of control

with peta shooting them down, with naked girls (ya this one you rah) and making statement pits should be banned inside a movie, you say thumbs up cause just a movie and and we ALL know pits aren't any more dangerous than any other animal and peta is good.

raisin eyebrows, lol

nah really, i dont have a bone to pick with the movie, just cavalier dismissal of point, per your grievances

argument for argument sake and not really even into the argument

[flvegan]

96. Where did I say thumbs up?

Nice "I just like to pick fights over nothing because I'm ignorant" disclaimer, btw.

[seabeyond]

97. bah haha. ya, right. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

91. Yes, it's a depiction of a '60s show, but the set, soundtrack and special effects were updated...

a few extra inches in length on Uhura's skirt wouldn't have changed the plot or challenged the authenticity.

[dorkulon]

99. News Flash: New Trek Film Made in Sexist Present

Turn on your TV. There is a hot chick showing some leg or cleavage on it right now. Change the channel. There's another one. This is not a holdover from a bygone generation; it's much worse now than ever. And I don't see why we should think it's going to change.

There are really two separate issues here: The objectification of women as sex objects, which is the thing that either hasn't changed or has gotten significantly worse over time. Then there's respect for women as capable, smart, and competent authority figures. This has obviously gotten better, but might not be a priority when making a nostalgia film for sci-fi geeks, an overwhelmingly male demographic.

[seabeyond]

100. better? michelle obama clothes and naked bust, palin and porn movie, hillary

and hand on breast by obama worker, german pres in undies

competent women in authority, as long as we reduce them to naked.

[dorkulon]

101. I said better, not ideal.

Hillary is Sec. of State after all, and was very nearly president. Neither of these things could have been true in '62 when Star Trek first aired.

[seabeyond]

115. yes

you are right and i knew this as i was typing, and i still wanted to make my point, lol. but yes

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

105. ROFLMAO!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[mainer]

109. I'm female, I'm liberated, and I loved this movie.

Sometimes you just have to stop being angry about everything and just enjoy the trip.

Uhura may have had a crush on Spock, but for god's sake, she's the one who intercepts and interprets the Romulan/Klingon transmissions and her skills are vital to the ship's survival.

The original Star Trek broke so many barriers -- an Asian, a Russian, a Scot, an African American, and a science officer who's a mutt Vulcan/human. ( Kinda like our President. ) If you're going to go insist on ticking off boxes so that every minority gets in there (gay guy? check! lesbian? Check!) you are going to have a cast of hundreds.

The movie's great appeal is that it brings back the characters we all grew to love. To turn it into an affirmative action project means we'd have less time with the people we actually came to see.

[Pacifist Patriot]

120. Personally, I'm miffed there was no 40 year old red headed straight white woman born in...

the southeastern United States who is 5'9 and weighs 150 pounds. There was no one representing me! Waaahh! And I would have agreed to play the role completely gratis too. Bugger! I think they need a humanist chaplain. ;)

[mainer]

123. Not to mention how it was totally ageist.

Where are the 85-year-old crew members? In the future, is there still going to be forced retirement at 65?

[Pacifist Patriot]

124. Very true. Anyone over the age of 25 was stuck at Starfleet Academy in administrative positions.

BORING!

[NYCGirl]

140. Did you see the film? The Enterprise was populated largely by CADETS. They

tend not to be 85 years old. (Won't go into the reason for this the plot of the film.)

[TCJ70]

148. I don't know if that's true...(possible spoilers)

...maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention, but Uhura, Sulu and Kirk weren't even supposed to be there. Uhura and Sulu "inherited" their positions from sick or otherwise unable to do their duties. Checkov was the only one I saw who seemed just out of the academy. Spock and Bones were already officers.

[mainer]

154. I adored this film. But ... ALL the older crew was dead/incapacitated?

Leaving all those empty starships to be crewed ONLY by green cadets? Sounds like bad planning on Starfleet's part! The only crew member with any gray hair at all was Capt. Pike.

Maybe that's because in the future, 85 will be the new twenty! And obesity will no longer exist, since not a single overweight person appeared anywhere in the story.

My point wasn't at all that the movie was ageist, sexist, or whatever-ist. ( I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek. I was playing off the earlier funny comment.)

My point is that we shouldn't be so fixated on being politically correct when this film gave us (or gave me, anyway) such a honking good time.

[Occam Bandage]

246. Well, if you remember,

the few ships we see (with the exception of the USS Kelvin at the beginning of the film) were not supposed to even be staffed at all. Starfleet (with all its experienced officers aboard) was away patrolling the border, and when the emergency signal from Vulcan came in, they immediately staffed the reserve and newly constructed ships they had in Earth orbit with the only officers and crewmen they had: cadets, reservists, and officers serving at Starfleet Academy.

[WildEyedLiberal]

126. Thank you

Agreed 100%. It's nice to just ENJOY something without turning it into the latest battlefield of the Culture Wars, for chrissakes.

[Captain Hilts]

165. I liked it too. I thought it was terrific. nt

[GaYellowDawg]

169. Not only that

The captain kicked a (presumably) higher-ranked man out of the spot on the bridge and gave it to her.

[NoodleyAppendage]

125. Give me a friggin' break. Yes! You see it's all a conspiracy to hold the "woman" down. WTF? n/t

J

[Captain Hilts]

166. Just what I'd expect from a poster named 'Noodley Appendage'. Sounds limp. nt

[NoodleyAppendage]

200. I'm lasagna thick baby. n/t

J

[Evoman]

128. Are there any Latinos in this version of Trek?

If there is, he's probably selling Space Crack or Romulan Ale, while say "Ese" a lot, and wearing gang colours. Or maybe he is some red shirt called Tommy Rodriguez, who gets in the way of a bullet aimed at Kirk. Then Kirk steps over him and forgets all about him.

I'm only half kidding.

Movies are usually not very fair to anybody who isn't a white guy. They are almost always the heroes, while the minorities and women take a supporting role.

Ah well...I still want to watch it. I like Star Trek.

[IDFbunny]

143. Ricardo Mantalban

but he played a Sikh. I haven't seen this one yet.

[Pacifist Patriot]

244. Not sure what counts as a Latino

There are some surnames in the cast that have Romance language derivations.

Quinto (Spock)
Saldana (Uhura)
Tejeiro (Flight Officer)
Saglimbeni (Enterprise Crew Member #3)
Gerace and Inglis?

Can't think of any particularly Hispanic characters though. Hey, at least they had Nero the Romulan (eye ball roll on the name choice there) played by an Australian.

I suspect we'll see sequels that will give us plenty of opportunities for hispanics, gays, pacific islanders, etc. ;)

I hope so. I like Star Trek too and I'm wondering what they're going to do with it now that the "slate is wiped clean" to start anew. It has such potential....to disappoint spectacularly.

[leftofthedial]

132. shut up and bring me a beer

sugar.

[Ezlivin]

142. Breaking News: It's an alternate reality

Because in the "real" reality we can't even launch a shuttle without it getting dinged and possibly unable to return to earth. Forget about exploring strange new frontiers or going where no man has gone before; we're lucky if we can get out the atmosphere and back in one piece!

[Reader Rabbit]

144. I wrote a fanfic about the sexism in Trek once.

It was fun. :P

Seriously, though, you're dealing with TOS characters here. There aren't a lot of options, female-wise. Uhura did no more or less than the other secondary characters, Chekov, Scotty, and Sulu. Maybe we'll get to see her do the ninja chick thing in the next Trek flick.

[Kitty Herder]

184. I think I may have read that.....

Not that there wouldn't have been more than one dealing with the subject, but maybe I did read yours. Wouldn't that be cool.

[Reader Rabbit]

234. Was it this one?

Y Not Me?

[jakeXT]

145. So did they make the miniskirts longer or not ?

New uniforms a nod to the original
According to TrekMovie sources, the Starfleet uniforms on the Enterprise are the element of this film closest to The Original Series in design. They are comprised of very dark grey (almost black) pants and boots for the men and mini skirts and boots for the women along with the previously mentioned shirts. For the women’s outfits, the mini-skirts are a bit longer than TOS and they have both short-sleeved and long-sleeved versions, and at least one female member of the crew will be wearing pants. The biggest difference with the tops is that they are comprised of two pieces, with a very dark grey (almost black) undershirt and the over shirt of the appropriate color, with a slight v-neck. The undershirt forms what looks like a black collar, similar to the TOS uniforms.

http://trekmovie.com/2008/07/31/star-trek-movie-uniform-spoilers/

[Captain Hilts]

158. A Star Trek manual I read once pointed out that the length of the miniskirts was determined from

the crotch down, not from the knee, up. Weird stuff.

[NeedleCast]

147. I guess if you look hard enough, you'll find it if you want to

[WildEyedLiberal]

160. This article is beyond ridiculous

Star Trek was one of the most inclusive shows of the 60s. 40 years ago, it was revolutionary to have an Asian man and a black woman as bridge officers. The new movie - obviously - is going to feature the same characters.

And frankly, I'm offended by the article's criticism of Uhura's relationship with Spock. It was absolutely NOT depicted in a sex-kitten sort of way; in fact, she repeatedly and hilariously rejects Kirk, who DOES come on to her in a very sex-object sort of way. She is apparently in a caring and emotionally rewarding relationship with Spock, however, and that's SEXIST? HOW? Are women in cinema supposed to be celibate or lesbian to gain the approval of the PC feminist brigade?

I'm sick to death of the Cultural Warriors - both right- AND left-wing - turning literature and film into their own private little battlegrounds.

[Captain Hilts]

168. TOS was pretty radical for its day in many ways. nt

[GaYellowDawg]

170. And (small spoiler)...

She kicked Spock's ass into getting her onto the Enterprise.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

180. Sex is sexist.

That's the message.

[sarge43]

187. Thank you.

With the possible exception of his father, Uhura was the only person who seemed to understand what Spock was feeling and he was feeling deep pain. She gave him affection and comfort, quite possibly out of love. And she did it freely; Spock certainly didn't come on to her. If that's sexist, so be it. It is human.

[Pacifist Patriot]

207. That was the part of the article that bothered me most.

I really liked the way they handled the relationship between Spock and Uhura. Commitment is too often a subject of derision these days rather than celebration. I officiate a lot of wedding ceremonies and am sick to death of hearing the "escape while you still can" jokes. I know they are a staple, but the benefits of a strong, stable, healthy, supportive and loving partnership are incalculable.

The idea that a woman in a relationship has sacrificed something of herself is anathema to me. I consider myself more differentiated and a stronger individual thanks to the love and support of my husband. Paradoxical? Maybe.

The lift scenes with Spock and Uhura were very touching. A woman who finds offense in that is not a feminist, she's just totally missing the point.

[Touchdown]

172. Star Trek being sexist is a laugh.

Doctor



Intelligence officer



Second in command



Engineer



Science officer



And.... Captain

[sarge43]

193. And another commander Capt Rachel Garrett of honored memory.

.

Kira organized the Cardassian resistance and became DS9's commander.

[WildEyedLiberal]

212. Not to mention all the various female admirals

And you forgot Security Chief, Tasha Yar.

Yeah, this entire thread is based on such a bullshit premise it pisses me off.

[Touchdown]

225. I didn't forget her. There are just too many to post in one shot.

Diana Muldair -The second Dr. from Season 2 TNG
Tasha
The Klingon sisters
The Dominion Queen
Bajor's Religious leader played by Nurse Ratchet
Kirk's ex-wife leading the Genesis Project
The facilitator at the Cetacian Institute in San Francisco
Ensign Ro
Whoppie Goldberg -not really a leader but she runs a bar, so a businesswoman.
The Borg Queen
Seven of Nine
Lwaxana Troi
Moogie (Liberated ferengi woman who wears clothes)

Too many to list.

[sarge43]

235. Great list. Thanks

Another one

Capt Phillipa Louvois, a judge who saw beyond the letter of the law and defended its spirit.

[Captain Hilts]

215. Let's see...some women in shrink-wrap 'uniforms'.

Many Trek women end up in snug-fitting onesies:

[WildEyedLiberal]

221. So?

The Seven of Nine catsuit was over the top, and it was ridiculous that Troi didn't wear a regulation uniform, but other than that, all the Starfleet characters wore the same uniform styles the men did. The MEN in the early seasons of TNG wore spandex onesies, too. Kira's Bajoran militia uniform is the same style as Odo's, and so forth.

I just really, really think all the "outrage" over this is stupid. The vast majority of the women in those photos were strong, self-sufficient women who performed vital jobs on the ship. Who gives a flying fuck about anything else? If you're worried about sexism, there are 50 billion other TV shows and movies with far, far less flattering portrayals of women than Star Trek. Good God.

Do you think the women in pantsuits on all the doctor and lawyer shows are better "role models" because their clothes are more in line with what you have decided "liberated women" are allowed to wear? Most women on those shows are shown frequently in the context of their personal relationships. I'd much rather my daughter look up to Dr. Crusher or Major Kira or Commander Dax or Captain Janeway than the women of Grey's Anatomy or Desperate Housewives or whatever. Even if their clothing doesn't meet the Feminist Stamp of Approval. :eyes:

[Touchdown]

226. If they want to complain about sexpots on TV, why not Dollhouse?

Oh' I forgot... One cannot criticize the great Joss Whedon, Creator of Buffy: The Vampire Slayer or bimbo with a wooden stake!:eyes:

[FailureToCommunicate]

237. I wondered when 7of9's cat suit would be mentioned. Roddenberry and company

DID tone it down: The silver 'over the top' one was soon replaced by the dark brown 'no light reflected from curves' onesie...

[Captain Hilts]

247. Ryan had a hell of a time getting in and out of the silver one that was even stitched up the butt.

I did think the 7o9 character, and Ryan, were terrific. A vast improvement over Kes.

[Pacifist Patriot]

232. *sigh* If I had a body like that, I'd probably live in snug-fitting onesies.

They look like comfortable pajamas to me.

[sarge43]

236. Sing it. sister.

I had to wear the 'lady like' 50's dreck. Collie muzzle Wonder bras anyone?

[Touchdown]

249. Ooh! Cherry picking costumes when they wore many! How convenient.

Why, oh' why didn't you pick this one? Not supportive of your argument?



Deanna's sweater. Just like those pig mens...


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/b/b4/Deanna_Troi,_Encounter_at_Farpoint.jpg/292px-Deanna_Troi,_Encounter_at_Farpoint.jpg

http://img.webring.com/r/m/marinasirtisdean/logo

[Captain Hilts]

250. If you're trying to tell me 7o9 wore a lot of other non-shrinkwrap costumes, think again and Troi

was shifted to a starfleet uni later in the series.

Trek's known for putting women in 'catsuits'. 7o9 was brought into the series because it had low ratings among young male viewers.

Focus groups on Voyager showed that people still associate female authority with being young children and the idea that it makes us feel immature to submit to it long after we're adults. Young men just hated Janeway. So, it's interesting that Wash DC gave Voyager its highest ratings.

[Touchdown]

254. I'm not telling you anything, but Seven was a borg, the ugliest character in ST's history

not counting Quark. The context of the story and her transformation to humanity again, and the the final result of a beautiful woman once again free is a story worth telling. Ever heard of the ugly duckling?

As for boys hating Janeway, even if true (which you haven't shown any evidence) that isn't the fault of the producers or writers of the show.

[WildEyedLiberal]

257. I didn't care for Janeway all that much, and I'm a young woman

She was just the least interesting Trek captain. I don't decide to like or dislike fictional characters because of any real world political agenda. I don't think her lack of interestingness had to do with her being a woman, either. I just think Voyager in general was a dull, third-rate Next Generation. I hope that doesn't make me sexist.

[Captain Hilts]

260. God, no one said it's sexist not to like a TV show. But Voyager's ratings among

young men was low. And Enterprise was designed to bring that demographic back.

[Deja Q]

173. Considering the entire movie was mocking the original series, the 'Guardian' needs to lighten up

:shrug:

[Bucky]

174. Gene Roddenberry tried to fix this in his planned 2nd Trek series by having men wear skirts too

Somehow, this didn't end up as a viable show pitch.

[Captain Hilts]

181. True, but we also got Counsellor Cleavage on the bridge. nt

[Kitty Herder]

183. You only caught glimpses of men in miniskirts occasionally.

It did seem like some kind of justice, even if they were only glimpses.

[quickesst]

176. So, let's make a Star Trek beginning...

..to show how it all began, and as an homage to the original, but let's change all the characters, and give them personalities that are completely different from the original. All you get is a lie, sprinkled with bitterness from an individual who thinks destroying the premise of the original Star Trek is worthy of her inane rant, which by the way, would make it something other than Star Trek. What horse-shit. I can't believe the lengths people go to over simple entertainment. The saddest, and most pathetic thing about the article? Her belief that Star Trek is predicting what it will be like for women, and people of color a few hundred years from now, and that she seems to believe it. Thanks.
quickesst

[spanone]

189. pssst. guardian, it's science fiction.

[NYCGirl]

198. That Guardian isn't fit to share the same name with this Guardian:

[Captain Hilts]

202. Good one! nt

[Drix]

204. Any distinction at all?

Do people around here make a distinction between "sexy" and "sexist"?

Mini-skirt = sexy.
Unequal pay for equal work = sexist.

Cleavage = sexy.
Glass ceiling - sexist.

I know a lot of ignorant pigs like mini skirts and cleavage. They probably like pizza too. That doesn't make pizza bad.

[Pacifist Patriot]

206. Thank you for that one.

:thumbsup:

[WildEyedLiberal]

213. Excellent point.

It is obvious Uhura was respected for her intellect and talent. The one character who TRIES to treat her like a sex object fails, miserably and often.

I really don't think the anti-"sexy" clothing brigade is all that far, philosophically, from the Muslim fundies who stuff their women into burqas and veils. Their obsession with women's clothing and women's physical appearances may be coming from the other end of the spectrum, but it's still just as creepily invasive and all-consuming.

[anonymous171]

222. Exactly. Sexist attitudes are probably more damaging to women than mini-skirts. nt

[Forkboy]

224. Well, it's no Lexx, that's for sure!

[Touchdown]

228. Psst. This is GD. They're not going to get that.

Back to the Sci-Fi forum with you! And kick my Stargate Thread!:rofl:

[Forkboy]

229. Too obscure?

:rofl:

That show friggin' ruled. :)

[Toucano]

233. Uhura should be wearing a Burka?

Maybe an old feed sack and a pair of Birkenstocks would be detract less from her "strong, independent" image.


And no dating of a MALE lead. The only way to retain your "strong, independent woman" status is to fall in love with a female ensign.


In other words, be a man. Wear pants.


Ms. Doyle's observations represent a genuine misogynistic conflict that exists in some of our thinking.

[FailureToCommunicate]

239. Those were different times. I got to meet and chat with Gene Roddenberry at

a conference (World Future Society) back in the day. I was running the media area and didn't expect he would hang out there. But he had offered to let us screen a "blooper" reel from the original series and I said great. But then very cloak and dagger like he
let me know that he was not going to just leave it with me. So he stayed. I was so star struck I didn't even think at the time of WHY he wouldn't leave it!

Roddenberry's philosophy of meet and greet and LEARN if encountering Aliens instead of shooting first was
an important departure for popular sentiment in the middle of the Cold War, and certainly influenced many many young minds to at least consider a more peaceful diplomatic approach. Phasers (only) on stun...

I didn't ask Roddenberry any question about gender roles, but I can tell you my friends and I thought Uhura was FANTASTIC (my friends were African American)

(The strongest memory of watching that series was that at my friend's house his father had wired up a switch to turn OFF the speaker on the TV during the ads - a homemade "mute" button- and we all TALKED together during the ads! It was a revelation!)

Thanks, Gene, for everything you made us question. Thanks also for all the cool futuristic gadgets now commonplace that debuted on Star Trek!

P.S. Thanks for this tread, for all the cast photos, and for the memories...

[Pacifist Patriot]

241. Cool stories. Thanks!

[Captain Hilts]

251. Cool! That's why Iike Trek. nt

[Occam Bandage]

245. So Uhura is a sexist character because (mild spoilers)

she kisses Spock. Never mind that she is established as the absolute best linguist in the Academy, makes it very clear to Kirk that she has absolutely no interest in any relationship that is not on her own terms, during her free time one day at the academy she single-handedly intercepts, unencrypts, and translates a Klingon alarm signal Starfleet doesn't even notice (the contents of which eventually save the Enterprise from destruction), strong-arms Spock into assigning her to the most desirable ship posting on the fleet, and ends up being field-promoted to chief communications officer within hours of first being assigned to a starship as a result of her clear superiority to the man who held the job when she arrived. No, no, no. She's a sexist character because she is part of an ongoing heterosexual romance in which she is clearly taking the initiative. Is heterosexuality sexist?

The author has also neglected to mention the shuttlecraft pilot who takes Kirk et al to the academy (who threatens McCoy; hardly a delicate flower), the Enterprise's chief engineer before Scotty arrived (whose replacement was acceptable as Scotty had just established himself as the best starship engineer in known space), and that the "green girl" is a Starfleet cadet who later receives a posting as a full officer.

The bridge characters are mostly male. That's because the bridge characters are taken directly from the original Star Trek, which was extraordinarily progressive in its day, but which was still created in the 1960s.

[mainer]

256. I think we should all simmer down and watch GALAXY QUEST

Now there's a movie that made good, clean fun of the Trek phenomenon sexism and all. I loved how Sigourney Weaver's cleavage popped out more and more as the movie went on. GQ remains in my pantheon of favorite movies of all time.

[sarge43]

259. Not just Trek, science fiction in general was sent up.

"Ducts. Why is it always ducts?" You tell 'em, Ripley.

I wonder how many takes they did before Weaver stopped breaking up.

The nicest thing about GQ is it was loving fun. It wasn't cruel or smarmy.

[FailureToCommunicate]

261. "By Grathbar's Hammer!"

[sarge43]

262. "I won't go out there and say that stupid line again!!"

or

Jason: Hello Sarris. How you doin'?

Sarris: Better than my lieutenant. (Holds up head on stick)

Funny, funny movie.