waterboarding is not effective at getting the truth. it IS, however, effective at getting lies.

[unblock]

the subject says it all.

[Ohio Joe]

1. I don't know I would call them lies...

It is a fine line perhaps but I have a hard time calling the false confession of a torture victim a lie.

[unblock]

3. a false confession is certainly a lie.

and it certainly has all the evil connotations of the term from the point of view of the torturer. he's trying to extract a lie. cheney was trying to extract lies.

from the point of view of the torture victim, it is perhaps not the most evil form of a lie, if done as a matter of self-preservation, it is perhaps not as evil as a lie told for profit. but it remains a lie.

in any event, my point point was a counter to the torture-rationalizers, that it is needed to extract the truth. nonsense, it is needed to extract lies, like the non-existent link between iraq and al qaeda.

[Ohio Joe]

5. I agree with that

It is really a shame, insanity even, that we have to refute justifications for torture. It just feels like blaming the victim to say they are lying. The torturer makes it clear what they want to hear, the victim ends up just repeating it, not through choice.

[Fresh_Start]

2. so there's no point in waterboarding the bush administration

they give us lies without any messy waterboarding.

I say go for the truth drugs

[unblock]

4. they wouldn't know the truth if it walked up and introduced itself to them.

sociopaths only know what serves them.

they only have this vague understanding of "truth" as some wacky concept democrats keep blathering on about.