Why did Cheney want torture formally authorized?

[mykpart]

Bear with me. According to my Vietnam veteran husband, the CIA has always routinely engaged in "enhanced interrogation," but it's done on the quiet, without authorization or acknowledgement, so that if it's discovered, the military can disavow all knowledge, kind of like on Mission Impossible. Remember on Mash the recurring character of Harry Flagg? Same thing, he was CIA, or whatever it was called in the 50s. This seems plausible to me, and if you accept the premise, then why would Cheney have wanted to have Bush sign off on torture? Could it be nothing more than ego on Cheney's part? Did he want to assert authority over the CIA? or over Bush? or have "something on" Bush? Is he really evil enough to torture people just for the sake of his ego? If true, how is he different from Saddam Hussein?

[SmileyRose]

1. The evil has twisted Cheney's brain to insanity

there's no telling why he did it.

[magellan]

2. Wasn't it because they wanted to establish an Iraq/AQ link?

If you don't communicate that to the CIA, then you aren't going to get it.

[OmahaBlueDog]

7. About that...

The administration (meaning Cheney) wanted a link to bring to the American people, yes? Put together Al Quaeda and Iraq and tie Saddam to 9-11. This, in turn, justifies the invasion.

Why torture? Why not go with the simpler, more time honored tactic of simply lying?

Find some like minded folks; put them up in front of Congress (in masks...for security reasons, of course), and just have them say "oh yeah, I worked for Al Quaeda, and we met with Iraqui military officials all the time."

Why didn't they do this?

Mrs. OBD thinks it's the same reason Nixon didn't burn the tapes -- arrogance. I wonder what anyone else thinks?

[magellan]

24. If there was a way to get Cheney's lips moving

...and ensure it wasn't a lie, I'd be interested to hear his honest justification for torture. My gut tells me he's just one of those abusive types for whom the amount of pain he inflicts on others equates to his sense of power. There are plenty of those types around.

[BlooInBloo]

3. So he could put it on his resume.

[mykpart]

6. You mean the resume he submits to Satan?

[BlooInBloo]

13. That would be the one, yes.

[stillcool]

4. I think it was the military involvement..

and using it as a standard interrogation technique. I don't remember when it was that Rummy put intelligence units that had been under the CIA, under the Pentagon..and took the budget with it..but maybe that has something to do with the need for legal authorization.

[knowbody0]

5. Bush sr. was CIA

and the clusterfuck of the 43 administration was spawned around that. Cheney's death squad etc. I believe it is a mindset that puts them all in an "above the law" mind think.

[mykpart]

9. I think you're right about that.

Kind of like the Texas "He needed killing" defense.

[ShortnFiery]

36. We laugh at right-wing "the head cases" in the military such as ...

wacked (a commie in every unit) Colonel Flagg; GOP lovin Major "Hotlips" Houlihan; and Major "Ferret Face" Burns.



However, I've met some types during my time in the Army that would suggest these comical sterotypes to be NOT that far out. It's frightening, but there are some truly anti-social personalities that our beloved military could do without. Especially those within the Intelligence field should have a sound moral compass. I hope and pray that their FBI background checks serve to weed-out those belonging to right-wing extremist groups. :scared:

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/nazis-military-im-so-proud-my-skills



This problem doesn’t involve only the Nazis, gang-bangers, and other violent personalities worming their way into the military. It also affects the many more formerly normal, non-racist recruits who have been dragged into multiple tours of duty in Iraq, regardless of the psychological dangers of such treatment. This includes many people whose evaluations have recommended they not be returned for duty but have been sent back regardless. Thus the Timothy McVeigh Finishing School continues to operate.

This has the deadly potential to become a significant component of the predictable surge in far-right activity likely to manifest itself in the United States in the coming months and years, especially as Democrats and liberals expand their hold on power. We run the risk of re-creating the conditions that arose in Germany and Italy after World War I: the presence of scores of angry, disaffected, and psychologically damaged war veterans, fed a steady diet of "Dolchstosslegende," poised to organize into a political force aimed at "rebirthing" the nation and its heritage.

In our current situation, these veterans not only will have served with neo-Nazis amid their ranks, they will likely be faced with unemployment and a wrecked economy, eager for someone to blame and fully trained and capable of violent action.

SPLC Chief Counsel Richard Cohen has written another letter to the Defense Secretary pleading that the DoD take concrete steps to deal with this problem. Here's hoping he produces something other than denial this time.

[LakeSamish706]

12. Not only that, everything that happened after the non election of 2000... was pre planned...

way back when... Just do a Google and much of this shit is out there.

[knowbody0]

15. it is really creepy when the conspiracy theories

end up being real... like when you think your lover is cheating on you but admonish yourself for your insecurity, then waaaaay later you find out you were right.

[ControlledDemolition]

21. Bush Snr. was in Dallas 11/22/63! n/t

[rhett o rick]

8. Easy answer. Cheney is a sociopath. He thinks whatever he does is right.

If he tells everyone he is doing it, and nothing is done, he is validated.

[LakeSamish706]

10. The reality is he is no different from Saddam Hussein... Cheney and Saddam Hussein are basically..

the same breed of cat... The only difference is that Cheney had to appear to stay within the bounds of US law (and he and GW moved those pointers as we know them big time).

[mykpart]

14. Cheney had to know that torture would happen regardless

(see my OP), but I think he wanted us all to know that HE was responsible. To intimidate us?

[wiggs]

17. Great point! Hussein and Cheney...the same. Start the meme. nt

[babylonsister]

11. He wanted information he couldn't get from regular questioning.

Bottom line. He wanted a bigwig in Iraq to admit a connection to Saddam and al qaeda to support Cheney's reason for going to war in Iraq.

I don't think he ever got that, and if he did, it's not legitimate.

[mykpart]

16. As far as legitimate information being obtained,

of course it wouldn't hold up in a US Court of Law, but then he made sure none of the detainees would get tried in a US Court, didn't he?

[babylonsister]

18. I think the jig is up.

And I love it!

[NYC_SKP]

19. Why did they leave such a thick paper trail?

Why not just do it like they probably always have?

Could it be that it was so extensive they expected it to be found out?

[babylonsister]

26. They did a lot of things exposed as elementary, my dear.

I do remember how inept what they did became, prior to their asses being on the line. Really.

They screwed up all the way around.

[csziggy]

22. I think it is better stated that Cheney wanted ANSWERS he couldn't get from regular questioning

He didn't give a damn about information. He knew what he wanted to hear and to have on the reports. And that is why he had to move the questioning beyond even the normal CIA techniques. The only way he could get the answers he required was to torture the people until they said what he desired.

[wiggs]

20. Oh man. This could get interesting. Looks like Cheney is going to be in

the crosshairs. Congress, DOJ, and the Executive branch could throw him under the bus. But another scenario emerges (perhaps second beer talking?): In a hypothetical world in which Junior is aware and has a spark of brain activity, he realizes that Cheney lied to him, manipulated flow of information, set up a shadow government, played him for a fool, and caused all kinds of controversy about his administration. in a shocking moment of clarity, he realizes that revealing all of Cheney's misdeeds and crimes not only let's him off the hook but gives the nation and the world someone to blame for 9/11, Iraq, NSA spying, torture, politicization of DOJ and CIA. Bush Junior, himself, maybe with urging from Rove and Gonzales who are not friends of Cheney, goes on prime time and talks about Cheney's lies, deceipt, and manipulations AND URGES DOJ TO INDICT HIM.

Bush was too naive and dense to really be held responsible. He can do this without fear of criminal prosecution. And, ironically, he resurrects his legacy.

Is this what's coming down the road. Does Cheney know this and that's why he's desperately spinning the last few days?

Bush would not do the same for two other deserving criminals, Rove and Gonzales, but he could turn on Cheney.

[ControlledDemolition]

23. To legalize his own personal behavior over the years. n/t

(Edit: Fix typo.)

[TahitiNut]

25. I think that trail is marked by Doug Feith, OSP, WHIG, the DIA, and his Iraq-al-Qaeda hang-out.

I'm not at all sure it started in the CIA, at least not broadly. The phrase "intelligence agencies" covers more than just the CIA. Rummy had his skunk works ... and Feith was the pet skunk.

[napoleon_in_rags]

27. Three words: Broad psychological impact. nt

[questforfreedom]

28. Well, the CIA TORTURED ME

I hope what you say is not true. I hope the CIA did not always engage in torture.

I was tortured by the CIA, I am a Muslim American born and raised

[jimshoes]

29. Recently a TV show was relating

some offensive names from the past such as Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc., and I thought to myself how easily dick cheney's name would fit right in with the rest.

[Echo In Light]

30. PNAC

[KharmaTrain]

31. CYA - Covering The Paper Trail...

It's one thing for an agent to act on his own under the darkness of a black site or under verbal orders of a superior to "enhance" the interogations. cheney tried to go a step further..codify torture...make it an official "weapon" of the government and then justify its use through legalese. Part of this was to cover ass on the torture that had already occured and to protect their asses from war crimes charges...the other part was to attempt to create a war where one really wasn't...use the threats of an attack as justification to destroy the Constitution and break international laws.

It's one thing to have a rogue operator...and I heard plenty of CIA Vietnam/Air America stories, but Richard Nixon
didn't order those tactics...or at least in a way that could be documented and used in war crimes trials.

[ShortnFiery]

32. Cheney wants it out there because the next time that the American People are living in *fear*

and his beloved "Liz" rises in the GOP hierarchy, they'll be able to do it to US, The American People.

That's what Police States do: Terrorize their own people to keep them subdued and compliant.

Mark my words, if we don't bring all these TORTURE ENTHUSIASTS to trial via FULL investigations (Military and Civilian Intel), the next time there is a Republican Executive Branch, The Geneva Conventions will not be the only precious document which will be RULED "quaint," i.e. Think Bill of Rights.

[Echo In Light]

34. Can I K&R your post?

;)

[ShortnFiery]

38. You're very kind. Cheney, et. al. right wing crazies are also talking to EVERY "right wing"

American, to include SOME military troops.

May our blessed Higher Power have mercy IF we FAIL to bring these EVIL Leaders to justice. If we don't do anything, these right-wing extremists will not have to even crawl back into the woodwork, but openly RECRUIT what might morph into the new 21st Century SS.

We must stand up for THOSE tortured, and yes, for mistreatment and "kangaroo court" tribunals because WE WILL BE NEXT if we don't stop this inhumane treatment now.

Having grown up in a far right wing family setting, I have NO DOUBT that the next GOP Executive Branch would not hesitate to "lock-down" on the American People IF TORTURE is not fully investigated.

FIRST they will come for the liberals. I have no doubt.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

35. My theory about Cheney and torture was that once it commences

on such a scale,(they were rounding up large numbers of people) and in multiple locations and mixing up the populations in charge, like FBI, CIA, military, reserves, National Guard units,private contractors, etc. that there must have been a lot of conflicting questions and answers about what they could and couldn't do. We have never had a war with such a conglomerate of forces and chains of command, different work cultures, etc.

Also remember that at places like Abu Grahib they actually had Reserves acting as guards and military police who probably had less than a clue. Think about people who joined the reserve for some tuition money and thought one weekend a month is no big deal and who worked in some normal job like we all do, suddenly being sent off to the desert to guard "terrorists" and "enemy combatants", a large number of which were simply civilians swept up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure there was a lot of people asking exactly what they could/couldn't do and is everyone sure it's legal? Lower levels ask mid levels who ask upper levels and every single person's concern is to CYA. Somewhere along the point someone said, yeah, sure, but I want that in writing. (This happens because at heart, probably they all realized it was wrong, criminal, illegal and immoral and they need reassurance otherwise) And then it goes higher and higher until finally, it actually makes it into the White House.

That's what I think.

[Echo In Light]

37. Well, except for the fact that it's a fabricated, phony war, so they're not actually seeking who...

...or what they claim to be. That, however, casts their govt in a light that not many Americans are comfortable with, hence the denials and cries of "conspiracy theory!"

The torture occurred via the PNAC blueprint for controlling the world militarily - the plans of which were drawn up prior to the illegal installation of Bush/Cheney in 2000 - and then of course implemented once the establishment entire took the cue, and enabled/paved the way for said plans to go into action once the Right people were "elected." (what else was that admin going to do anyway?!)

The pics were sent out of prison camps to further enrage locals/friends/families so that they'd have more incentive to organize against invading/occupying US forces. BushCo NEEDED to have chaos/conflict in keeping w/the militant PNAC mindset.

[kentuck]

39. Because he was in charge of foreign policy...

and 9/11 happened on his watch. He could get revenge without the responsibility.