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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:14 PM
Original message
High school essay: Who's is more like contemporary society; Orwell's 1984 or Huxley's Brave New ....
My daughter has to write an essay about 1984 and Brave New World. She has to take an opinion about which book better represents contemporary society today. I choose 1984 hands down, but I bet some of you geniuses here can give her some great points to consider. Does anyone here have any input?

Here are a few of my Ideas:

"We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power." (from Nineteen Eighty-Four)

Contract for a new american century is a good place to respond to the above.

"The Party's agents constantly rewrite history. " From 1984

reasons for war, treatment of indians etc... Help me out here.

The official language is Newspeak, and the society is dominated by such slogans as "War is Peace", "Freedom is Slavery", "Ignorance is Strength."

Clean air innitative, healthy forrest etc.... Help here too.

big brother, thought police..... help
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. I vaguely remember either. But one thing I remember was "SOMA"
from Brave New World. I always liken that to television.
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Captain Angry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. Brave New World.

If I recall correctly, there were major specified class divisions in BNW. We don't get obvious about it these days, but chances are you'll never meet somebody who goes to Harvard/Yale because they're so wealthy from birth, they wouldn't be near people that aren't.

I seem to recall there being a trip to New Mexico to see what "primitive" people lived like. I personally believe that if we don't fix some things and soon, that the whole USA will basically be a theme park for the wealthy. Yellowstone, Disney, Grand Canyon, people will visit here, and the nonwealthy Americans will be ticket takers, tour guides, street cleaners, hotel workers, etc.

Some thoughts from the top of my head.

At least they're asked to read and report on books like these, and not some airhead baloney.
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thanks you guys, this is a good start....
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. 1984 hands down.
IIRC, in Brave New World there is no war or poverty but really no individuality.

Big Brother on the other hand, could have been created by Karl Rove himself. The state spied on citizens, rewrote history by destroying proof of actual events. The 2 minute hate in 1984 reminds me of the hate mongering against gays, against secularism, etc, in an attempt to distract people from the crimes of the state. Big Brother's explanation that "we have always been at war with _________" reminds me of the shifting rationale for Bush's invasion of Iraq. Bush rules through fear, just as Big Brother did. Bush tortures just like Big Brother did.

Bush's claims that the US economy is "fantastic" (despite the fact that it's "fantastic" only for the wealthiest) remind me of Big Brother's claims that they were increasing the chocolate ration when they had really cut it. The use of language ("New speak") reminds me of the attempts by the Bush administration to frame issues by controlling the language, i.e., "war on terror", "cut and run", "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here", etc.
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Cyrano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. IMO, today's U.S. is closer to "1984" than "Brave New World."
The most telling difference is the way the rulers held power. In "Brave New World," it was mainly through the use of drugs to sedate the population and make them willingly go along with the powers that be.

In "1984," the populace was ruled through lies, fear, and almost total brainwashing. Big Brother could do no wrong. Reality was whatever he said it was, even though it was constantly changing. And dissenters were taken off and tortured into loving Big Brother.
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. well, start by making sure you spell the title correctly!
I'm just being picky and mean no ill-will, but I got a chuckle out of spelling "Who's" in your title instead of "Whose," especially since it's for a HS paper.

In 1984, the government is personified, which is a common propaganda trait of our current government. Always put a face on an event (photo ops, etc).

Good luck!

Peace
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. Thanks, can't believe I did that with the whose thing. Duh!
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Bronyraurus Donating Member (871 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. Brave New World, without a doubt
The citizenry is doped into apathy (today it would be intellectually vapid and sex-obsessed pop culture, drugs, video games, etc...) about the state of the world. It is also heavily stratified into intellectual classes, as is ours. The highest good is not spirituality, but consumption of goods and almighty Ford. These are the methods of control in BNW, and it makes for a much happier populace (like ours) than totalitarianism does, but it crushes the soul just as well.

I hate to contradict other posters (ha, ha), but the US of 2007 does not resemble 1984. The most important method of government control over its subjects in 1984 is the elimination of dissenting thoughts through manipulation of the language and rewriting of history. Orwell's point was that a person cannot think incorrect thoughts if he does not have the language to express those thoughts. And for those who are just incorrigible, there is always the tortures of room 101, which exploit a person's deepest fears. In America, language is as free as ever (more so due to the internet), thought is as free as ever, and no one gets tortured for writing, thinking, or saying anything.

"What about Guantanamo?!"

Shutup.
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ProgressiveFool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Good points
Edited on Tue Apr-03-07 06:46 PM by ProgressiveFool
I think it really would have to be a blend of the two, to be completely right about it.

I agree that our society is like BNW in the degree of mindless tripe that people busy themselves with for entertainment and consumption, but I don't think our society is anywhere near as heavily engineered as that of Huxley's vision, i.e. breeding programs and rigid social hierarchy. We're also not as completely amoral as that society is, either; "morality plays" form the bulk of the distracting vapid entertainment we're surrounded by, and it wouldn't work without the titillation factor that's missing in BNW.

On the other hand, we could be said to be living in a prequel to Orwell's 1984, where freedom is beginning to be restricted, and, in keeping with the main tool used by the rulers of that society, redefined; more security leads to more (domestic) peace, which is freedom. There's no denying that freedom is on the march to the grave, with things like domestic surveillance and the death throes of Habeas Corpus. We also have distraction and manipulation in 1984 in regards to War, which is almost entirely an exercise in propaganda, with fake bombs being hurled by the government at its own citizens. One could say that the memory hole and the work of the Ministry of Truth is a logical evolution of the political culture of spin we have today.

If our current society is not more like 1984, it's only because we haven't gone quite far enough down the path yet, in my opinion.
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Bronyraurus Donating Member (871 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Good points to you, too
I can't tell if the current march towards more government intrusion is headed towards 1984 or if it's just the same, old creep of government into peoples' lives with no real endgame. I tend to think it's the latter, but either way, I don't like it.
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NormanYorkstein Donating Member (762 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I agree with Bronyraurus, BNW is much closer
Americans are numbed and distracted by mindless entertainment, celebrities, sex, and drugs. In 1984 if you said something "against the system" you might be tortured, in Brave New World saying something "against the system" just meant you were acting weird or cranky and you would be offered drugs, you know, to "chill out". I assume Ritalin and the like are the Soma of the modern USA.

Anyway it's good to know schools are still teaching kids these two great books. In fact, it sounds like a great assignment I would have enjoyed in school.




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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Both novels were prophetic in their own way
In 20 years, if things go the way the city of Los Angeles is headed, the correct answer will be Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? by Philip K. Dick.

That's the novel that was adapted to become the screenplay for the movie Blade Runner.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
9. Both
I think 1984 better represents how our government is - using propaganda, mind games & newspeak to create support for their policies. But BNW better represents how we are - preferring a soma of mindless entertainment & consumerism over truth. In 1984, people conformed because they had to; in BNW, people conformed because they wanted to, because it made them happier.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. Wow.. tough assignment. BOTH are relative today
If I had to choose, i think I would go with 1984, and tie it in with the corporatization of media..since message is really everything..

We can only "know" what we have access to.. and when the "gate-keepers" get to decide what they show us, we are at the mercy of media for just about everything.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
12. How about "Brave New 1984"?
There are elements of both. When big brother bush gets on the air and talks about the Patriot Act, I think 1984. When the news focuses on Britney or some other pop tart not wearing underware, I think Brave New World.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. Realistically, it's obviously 'Brave New World' for western society
for politics and economics, at least. North Korea may be in the totalitarian '1984' mode; and arguably places like central Africa and the Middle East are in the 'permanent war' state that '1984' had them in - but it's more localized than the global war that 1984 imagined. But western society (OK, really all the industrial consumerist societies - so Japan is included in this as well) is far closer to BNW than 1984.

Both 1984 and BNW involve the rewriting of history, control of language, and propaganda, to control the masses. But Orwell was, ironically, better at inventing memorable phrases for it (like 'thought police', Newspeak and so on), so he has the bigger reputation for predicting that. But in 1984, war is used an an excuse to limit consumption, while in BNW, and western society, people are encouraged to consume as much as they can for personal enjoyment, to keep the economy going. In 1984, there is no personal freedom, and everyone knows it; in BNW, they have the illusion of freedom. 1984 does still have people growing up in families (and being born naturally), so that's more like western society; but BNW has the sexual freedom that western society does.

So, politically and economically, BNW is a lot closer; socially and biologically, the more extreme BNW 'predictions' (babies produced and raised industrially, clones used to staff factories, people living very healthy lives until they suddenly drop dead with no-one caring) haven't come to pass.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
16. American Popular Culture = Soma
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
40. Did you know that there actually is a Soma? It is hydrocodone with less
acetaminophen (tylenol) than vicodin. The first time I saw this I just started laughing and couldn't stop, later I almost cried.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Bronyraurus is right BNW with 1984 terminology. The sad thing is that these
are the choices and this is the reality.

Not one of the choices, but there many elements from "A handmaid's tale" as well.


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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. It's a mix of the two.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. What grade? How long of a report? Has she read both?
I see no reason that she cannot take the concept of a dystopia and envelop both books in her report.
The paper could take many of the comments in this thread that would would help form topic sentences
which could compare and contrast the two philosophical discourses that Huxley and Orwell were trying
to relate to modern society. Both books are relevant in describing todays world
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Here's the question:
In the following passage, Neil Postman contrasts Orwell's vision of the future in 1884 with that of Aldous Huxley in BNW. Read the passage, considering Postman's assertion that Huxley's vision is more relevant today than is Orwell's. Then, using your own critical understanding of contemporary society as evidence, write a carefully argued essay that agrees or disagrees with Postman's assertion:


We were keeping our eyes on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. the roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we, at least, had not been visited by Orwellian Nightmares.

But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell's dark vision, there was another--slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome ba an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision, no Big Brother is required to deprive people of their autonomy, maturity and history. As he saw it, people will come to love their oppression to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason toban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.

Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in BNW Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." N 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In BNW, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
35. wonderful, I hope that was your daughter talking.
so she could write such a beautiful piece.

No matter, what she decides to do
she should decide.

With love and guidance from you.

To be true to her self.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. 1984. nt
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. Probably 1984 although there are elements of both..
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia ... Global War On Terror

Newspeak.. The BS "happy news" on the MSM

The two minute hate.. Islamofascists

Big Brother.. cult of personality around Bush

Ministry of Love.. Guantanamo

There's more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. If she has time, she might want to read (or at least skim) Neil Postman's "Amusing Ourselves to
Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business" (Important and very good book - HIGHLY recommend for all DUers. And, contrary to what the reviewer below says later in his/her review, I thought that it was a relatively easy read, and it's not long).

From a review on Amazon: "From the introduction and Postman's tongue-in-cheek comments about the novel 1984, his observations regarding the cogency of British author Aldous Huxley's technotronic nightmare vision in "Brave New World" through out the book right up to its conclusion, Postman binds your interest by illustrating and documenting how the rise of the elecrtonic media and its manipulation of what you see in way of news and entertainment has inexorably changed the meanings,purposes and ultimate uses of politics, economics, and technology. As Huxley himslef warned, totalitarian societies need not arise through violent overthrow of the democracies using brutality, cruelty and violence, but can also occur whenever the citizenry is successfully deluded into apathy by petty diversions and entertainments, as well. Postman shows how the electronic media's presentation of facts and fcition in an entertaining fashion diverts us, channeling our attention, money, and energies in ways that make us much more susceptible to social, political and economic manipulation and eventual subjugation."
http://www.amazon.com/Amusing-Ourselves-Death-Discourse-Business/dp/0140094385

This site contains many excerpts from the book, including this one, from the introduction:
pvii
We were keeping our eye on 1984. When the year came and the prophecy didn't, thoughtful Americans sang softly in praise of themselves. The roots of liberal democracy had held. Wherever else the terror had happened, we, at least, had not been visited by Orwellian nightmares.
But we had forgotten that alongside Orwell's dark vision, there was another-slightly older, slightly less well known, equally chilling: Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Contrary to common belief even among the educated, Huxley and Orwell did not prophesy the same thing. Orwell warns that we will be overcome by an externally imposed oppression. But in Huxley's vision ... people will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think.
What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Huxley added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we hate will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we love will ruin us.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Broadcast_Media/AmusingOurselves_Postman.html


Another good excerpt (not necessarily for your daughter's essay, but a commentary on why TV, and especially TV "news" is so bad for us):
Now... This!
by Neil Postman (edited from Amusing Ourselves To Death, 1985)


The American humourist H. Allen Smith once suggested that of all the worrisome words in the English language, the scariest is 'uh oh,' as when a physician looks at your X-rays, and with knitted brow says, 'Uh oh.' I should like to suggest that the words 'now...this' are as ominous as any, all the more so because they are spoken without knitted brow - indeed, with a kind of idiot's delight. The phrase, if that's what it may be called, adds to our grammar a new part of speech, a conjunction that does not connect anything to anything but does the opposite: separates everything from everything. As such, it serves as a compact metaphor for the discontinuities in so much that passes for public discourse in present-day America.

'Now...this' is commonly used on radio and television newscasts to indicate that what one has just heard or seen has no relevance to what one is about to hear or see, or possibly to anything one is ever likely to hear or see. The phrase is a means of acknowledging the fact that the world as mapped by the speeded-up electronic media has no order or meaning and is not to be taken seriously. There is no murder so brutal, no earthquake so devastating, no political blunder so costly - for that matter, no ball score so tantalizing or weather report so threatening - that it cannot be erased from our minds by a newscaster saying, 'Now...this.' The newscaster means that you have thought long enough on the previous matter (approximately forty-five seconds), that you must not be morbidly preoccupied with it (let us say, for ninety seconds), and that you must now give your attention to another fragment of news or a commercial.

It is also of considerable help in maintaining a high level of unreality that the newscasters do not pause to grimace or shiver when they speak their prefaces or epilogues to the film clips. Indeed, many newscasters do not appear to grasp the meaning of what they arc saying, and some hold to a fixed and ingratiating enthusiasm as they report on earthquakes, mass killings and other disasters. Viewers would be quite disconcerted by any show of concern or terror on the part of newscasters. Viewers, after all, are partners with the newscasters in the 'Now...this' culture, and they expect the newscaster to play out his or her role as a character who is marginally serious but who stays well clear of authentic understanding. The viewers, for their part, will not be caught contaminating their responses with a sense of reality, any more than an audience at a play would go scurrying to call home because a character on stage has said that a murderer is loose in the neighbourhood.

The viewers also know that no matter how grave any fragment of news may appear (for example, on the day I write a Marine Corps general has declared that nuclear war between the United States and Russia is inevitable), it will shortly be followed by a series of commercials that will, in an instant, defuse the import of the news, in fact render it largely banal. This is a key element in the structure of a news program and all by itself refutes any claim that television news is designed as a serious form of public discourse.

(much more here) http://www.godhaven.org.uk/nowthis.html



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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. How smart of you. Read my last post. This is the author the teacher has
chosen to use for the essay's basis.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Did the teacher assign Postman's book, or parts of it? Or just the Orwell and Huxley?
Is this an English class? Grade level? Sounds like a good assignment.

Heh. By posting when I did, I made myself look like a genius, eh? B-)
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. His "Technopoly" was prescient as well
Technopoly is a state of culture. It is also a state of mind. It consists in the deificaiton of technology, which means that the culture seeks its authorization in technology, finds its satisfactions in technology, and takes its orders from technology. This requires the development of a new kind of social order, and of necessity leads to the rapid dissolution of much that is associated with traditional beliefs. Those who feel most comfortable in Technopoly are those who are convinced that technical progress is humanity's superhuman achievement and the instrument by which our most profound dilemmas may be solved. They also believe that information is an unmixed blessing, which through its continued and uncontrolled production and dissemination offers increased freedom, creativity, and peace of mind. The fact that information does none of these things -- but quite the opposite -- seems to change few opinions, for unwavering beliefs are an inevitable product of the structure of Technopoly. In particular, Technopoly flourishes when the defenses against information break down.

The relationship between information and the mechanisms for its control is fairly simple to describe: Technology increases the available supply of information. As the supply is increased, control mechanisms are strained. Additional control mechanisms are needed to cope with new information. When additional control mechanisms are themselves technical, they in turn further increase the supply of information. When the supply of information is no longer controllable, a general breakdown in psychic tranquillity and social purpose occurs. Without defenses, people have no way of finding meaning in their experiences, lose their capacity to remember, and have difficulty imagining reasonable futures.

One way of defining Technopoly, then, is to say it is what happens to society when the defenses against information glut have broken down. It is what happens when institutional life becomes inadequate to cope with too much information. It is what happens when a culture, overcome by information generated by technology, tries to employ technology itself as a means of providing clear direction and humane purpose. The effort is mostly doomed to failure. Though it is sometimes possible to use a disease as a cure for itself, this occurs only when we are fully aware of the processes by which disease is normally held in check. My purpose here is to describe the defenses that in principle are available and to suggest how they have become dysfunctional.(Postman, Neil. Technopoly: The Surrender of Culture to Technology, New York, Vintage Books, pp. 71-72.)
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. you probably are a genius. The entire question is no my post above; #24

What year was Postman's book written? According to this Admin. 911 changed everything. With the patriot act we have moved more close to GO's 1984.

What is that saying once power is given up it won't be given back it must be taken back by force, something like that. Do you know what quote I'm talking about?
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. A few more ideas.. and a graphic..
Video walls.. Big screen TV with 500 channels of pap and things that rhyme with pap.

Ingsoc.. Republican party.

1. The Inner Party, which makes policy decisions and runs the government, which is referred to as simply The Party... Congress, President..


2. The Outer Party, which works in the state jobs and is the middle class of the society. "Members are allowed no vices other than cigarettes and Victory Gin." The Outer Party is also under the most scrutiny, being constantly monitored by two-way telescreens and other implements of surveillance.... Putting Republican party members in bureaucratic positions throughout government..

3. The Proles, which form the vast lower class, the rabble that is kept happy and sedate with beer, gambling, sports, casual sex and prolefeed ("rubbishy texts"). The proles are named for the proletariat, the Marxist term for the working class. The Proles make up 85% of the population of Oceania.... Everyone except the upper classes.

The graphic below is based on the old "Soviet Realism" posters.. I call it "conservative realism".



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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. Yes.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. Just a side note
Huxley died November 22, 1963 and it wasn't reported in the press.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
31. No contest - Brave New World, with a few techniques from 1984.
Huxley's system turns highly repressive when necessary, the riot police are always at the ready, there are sanctions and prison islands for those whose conditioning should fail to take hold. But the highest commandment is consumption and "entertainment" and drugs the main means of social control. Everyone's got to be happy. 1984 is a non-stop nightmare and supposed to feel that way to its inmates.
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-03-07 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
32. Here's what she has written so far, with a little help from me and DU and google.





911 need I say more. One can hardly use the dated words of Neil Postman’s book Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public discourse in the Age of Show business, written in 1986, just two years after the futuristic year of George Orwell’s 1984, to determine which author, Orwell or Huxley (author of Brave New World) had the clearer view of a distopian society as it compares to our current society. In 2007 nine-eleven has created a “Fearful” New World.” As they say “nine-eleven changed everything.” The biggest change has been the constant state of fear our government wishes to keep us in. This fear has allowed the government to seek and gain more power and to restrict our civil rights. Most of the government’s new power was written into the Patriot Act. This act itself is a perfect example of “newspeak” right out of George Orwell’s 1984. “Patriot Act” sounds very nice and, well, patriotic, however, it is a document that has restricted our civil rights in a way that should be alarming to any patriotic citizen. Consider our current term for a policy that allows big industries to keep polluting our air. This administration has termed the policy “The Clean Air Act,” how Orwellian. Or, how about the term for our policy to allow more destruction of our pristine forests conveniently called the “healthy Forrest” Act. How Orwellian indeed. As a matter of fact one hears this reference more and more in these troubled times. George Orwell is probably rolling over in his grave. The government spies on it’s own citizens without an order from a judge, it has secret renditions, disappearing people to foreign countries to be tortured, it has removed the protection of Habeas Corpus from American citizens, claimed the right to know what kinds of books you check out from the library, claimed the right to ignore the Geneva Conventions and has said it has the right to attack another country pre-emptively without proof of immanent threat to our nation.
In conclusion remember this as we recognize how fascism can inch into everyday life in the name of security; “Power, however it has evolved, whatever it s origins, will not be given up without a struggle,” Shulamith Firestone.

Understanding George Orwell’s prescient vision we are reminded that freedom demands our protection. “Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security,” Ben Franklin.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. You can add "black bag jobs" and the emasculation of Posse Comitatus to that.
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Captain Angry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Disclosure: I am a grammar nazi.
Sentence 1: Needs a question mark.
Sentence 2: WAY too long.

She might consider using the official name of USA PATRIOT Act, since it's a huge bloody acronym.

The Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001

But other than some capitalization consistency, some commas in the right spots, it makes its point nicely.

The ONLY book that I remember reading in high school was Brave New World. I read several others, but none stood out. I went to a crappy school system that was only there for the football team, so I didn't get much of an education during those years. I wish my school had made me read 1984, or something else useful. After these last 6+ years of disaster, I hope many school systems will reintroduce these books into the curriculum to head off another Bush in 20 years.

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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Thanks for your attention. I went to a crappy school system also and got
bussed to an inner-city school. The school did not have the best funding and didn't have the best teachers. Many of us fell through the cracks.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
36. A "Brave New World" consumer culture makes our "1984" government possible.
In Huxley's version of the future, the government was no more malicious than the populace. They all had the same ideals.

Orwell's depiction of a harsh, authoritarian regime that promoted fear and misery to hold power is much closer to what's going on in our government/corporate culture- though most of us aren't overtly oppressed by our government. That sort of thing would breed dissent. Instead, social divisions, fear, xenophoia, etc. are promoted, and entertainment is made readily available. The result is a populace that's simply too lazy and stupid to care about what their government does.

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ChaoticSilly Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
37. Both
We have the government and media of 1984, ruling through fear of real or imaginary enemies and changing enemies as needed (communists, terrorists, drug dealers, gang members, gays, atheists, etc). We have a government that eliminates (or at least tries) those it considers to be threats - sometimes using "civil" methods (Clinton/Lewinsky, the swift boating of Kerry, Valerie Plame), sometimes with not so civil methods (Guantanamo). Our government spies on us, maybe not with view screens, but by reading our mail, listening to our phone conversations, monitoring our financial transactions (banks are required to report large cash deposits, car dealerships are required to report cash purchases over a certain limit, etc) and keeping track of our political views with files in homeland security (don't even get me started on the name "Homeland Security").

We have a media that controls what information we are exposed to (compare US media with the media in other countries) and controls and shapes our language (why are words like liberal, welfare, socialist or atheist considered "dirty"?). Things which oppose the controlling of information, like the internet, are either commercialized and controlled through economics or vilified - "The internet is a dangerous place full of pornography, scam artists and Emmanuel Goldstein". Yes, there are bad people on the internet, but those bad people will still be bad people without the internet.

Our "culture" is much more like BNW. We have plenty of soma, in many different forms. Some forms are actual drugs like Ritalin or Zoloft (just don't try to use "unapproved drugs" like marijuana). Some are in the form of entertainment like American Idol. Some forms are on every street corner (at least in the city where I live) - no, not drug dealers or prostitutes - churches.

We also have a rigid class system. Sure there is some class mobility, but for every rags to riches story, there are thousands, if not millions, of rags to rags stories. We have an ivy league class, a state university class, a high school diploma class and a dropout/GED class. The main qualifier is the class standing of your parents. What is troubling to me is that mobility initiated and controlled by the higher classes (things like scholarships and loans) are viewed favorably while mobility initiated by lower classes (unions, welfare, state funded education, etc) are viewed as being socialist and therefore "dirty".

Like the poster said above, if you don't fit in with our cultural standards such as being an American Idol watching, church going, cell phone carrying, suv driving, heterosexual consumer (not citizen) you are viewed as needing soma in it's various forms. If you reject the soma you're viewed as an outcast.
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kiki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-04-07 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
39. It might be a bit deep for a high school paper, but...
Edited on Wed Apr-04-07 06:28 AM by kiki
..if you wanted to really blow them away, you could look beyond the more well-known aspects of the book (Big Brother, Newspeak etc) and examine the motivations behind the party - as Winston says, the "why" as opposed to the "how".

Nineteen Eighty-Four (smartass dept - note that this is the correct title, not 1984) is a satire of totalitarian communism, not toalitarian capitalism. The head honchos of the Party live a little better than the general population, but not much, and certainly not as well as they could if they just decided to make out like bandits; the manufactured poverty in which they keep the country affects them, too. The essential difference between the Party and Bushco - and, hopefully, the reason why Bushco is doomed to fail, whereas the Party went on forever - is that the individuals behind the Party are actually committed to the ideal of the Party (regardless of how destructive and vile that ideal may be) and will sacrifice their own comfort to safeguard it. The individuals behind Bushco, on the other hand, are a pathetic shower of thieves, gangsters, snake oil salesmen and village idiots who are committed to nothing except their own pleasure and advancement, and are prepared to sacrifice nothing. By way of an example, whereas the Party will torture you because they feel it is philosophically necessary for every individual to genuinely love Big Brother, Bushco will torture you simply because they are sadists. They don't give a fuck what you think of them afterwards.

The Party ultimately does what it does in order to transcend history and become God. Bushco ultimately does what it does in order to get rich, and to satisfy its more unsavoury urges. We all know that the talking heads of Bushco don't really believe a single damn word of the bullshit they spout; the Party actually does. That's the essential difference between the two. It comes to something when a fictional administration that's become a byword for oppression is actually less hypocritical than one's own real-life government, but there it is...
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