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"'constitutional dictatorship' is built into our system"

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 09:04 PM
Original message
"'constitutional dictatorship' is built into our system"
Sandy Levinson:

<...>

But enough of Bush bashing. After all, the President who seems determined not to hold any high-ranking member of that Administration accountable for disgracing the country and making us less safe to boot by adopting torture as a national policy is Barack Obama, to whose campaign I contributed and for whom I happily voted (and whose presidency, overall, still leaves me delighted). But surely we should recognize that the American version of "constitutional dictatorship" is built into our system and not simply a function of charcter. I confess I was much concerned by a conversation that I had last week with an old graduate school classmate, the most brilliant member of our cohort and a specialist on international and military relations (and, for what it is worth, a registered Republican to boot). He expressed great concern about the looming catastrophe facing the United States as the result of Presidentn Obama's ill-thought-out escalation of the war in Afghanistan. My friend noted that Kandahar was originally established by Alexander the Great, who was merely the first outsider who had delusionary visions of establishing a hegemony over Afghanistan. It's simply never been done, with the British and the Soviets being our most recent predecessors in such an effort. There is no reason to believe the U.S. will be more successful, and one possibility of our escalation in Afghanistan will be to exacerbate the situation in what is truly the world's most dangerous country, Pakistan.

<...>


Brian Tamanaha (in comments):

Sandy,

You convinced me a long time ago about the constitutional dictatorship. Obama's conduct, although admittedly brief, suggests that the problem might indeed be structural rather than a matter of the proclivities of the person who happens to occupy the office. (And I must agree that his adventures in Afghanistan will undoubtedly come to grief, as anyone familiar with history and geography already knows.)

But maybe it's not the fault of the constitution, or indeed of any constitutional arrangement.

Is it conceivable that were are caught in a structural trap that is the inevitable fate of any mass society?

Whether it is the 60 million plus of England or the 300 million plus of the US, perhaps a true democracy (in the sense that people really have a say in big decisions like war or a bank bailout) is chimerical once a society and government surpass a certain BIG size. Genuine consultation beyond that point is perhaps impracticable if not impossible, and perhaps is not even useful or advisable.

If that's true--and I really don't know whether it is--then maybe we need to think about what kinds of "dictatorship" (or non-democracies) are better than others. Maybe the best we can hope for is having a reflective, intelligent dictator like Obama rather than one like Bush.




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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. No comment?
What happened to checks and balances? Someone is always making an argument to justify why we don't have a "government of the people, by the people, for the people."



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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dear God,
Augustus was followed by a bunch of disasters.

Are we really thinking like this right now?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Here's the thing:
Bush gets away with war crimes and the focus turns to Obama. Which of the two will the next President emulate?





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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. the next will be a right wing reaction to him, just like from Clinton to bush.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. India is the largest democracy in the world.
have they gone fascist?

I honestly don't know how free their society is compared to other democracies.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. they have the rigid caste system and a long line of corporatist leaders.
Read Arundhati Roy.
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I Heard Fareed Zakharia Sunday (my recollection of his comments)
Edited on Mon May-25-09 11:40 PM by ashling
He congratulated India on their election and pointed out that more people voted in that election than live in the U>S, Canada and Mexico combined. It was 5 days over a month and he remarked that for the lack of education amongst the masses in India, they behaved and voted rather intelligently, returning to power a party that had brought economic power to the country and putting out some parties that appealed to hatred and other emotional calls....

...anyway, that is my recollection of what he said. I haven't checked for a link.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
8. A couple points:
Hegemony over Afghan never; if fortunate, we/NATO might help them establish a decent govt of their own.

As to our system, I think I agree with Brian T - Such a mass society simply CANNOT maintain the sort of democracy sought by the founders. I don't see 'dictatorship' as logical result of that fact, necessarily; hope not.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. You're assuming the founders wanted our nation to be especially democratic.
The electoral college is a pretty undemocratic way of electing a President. The Senate gives the same weight to California as it does to Alaska. The Constitution certainly can't be amended by majority vote; in theory, 50% + 1 of the 13 smallest states could stop an amendment from passing, even if everyone else in America supported the amendment.

The founders never intended the U.S. to be a direct democracy, and this is not necessarily a bad thing. For example, in a direct democracy, it would have taken decades longer for African Americans to achieve civil rights. There are also many issues on which representatives frequently vote for that would be voted down in a direct democracy. Look at California, where people create programs through ballot initiatives but vote against paying for them in the same initative process. The bailout is another example; nearly every mainstream economist knew that some sort of bank bailout was absolutely necessary, but it was incredibly unpopular with a majority of Americans (and it stood no chance of getting popular unless the people saw irreversible consequences of not having a bailout).
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. 'Especially' democratic?
I don't think so. I know what the founders did, and why.

Rather, as Brian T suggested, is it 'conceivable that were are caught in a structural trap that is the inevitable fate of any mass society?

perhaps a true democracy (in the sense that people really have a say in big decisions like war or a bank bailout) is chimerical once a society and government surpass a certain BIG size. Genuine consultation beyond that point is perhaps impracticable if not impossible.'
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-26-09 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. A mess of problems.
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