Damn, I Just Saw "Doubt"

[Dinger]

Such a sad movie, sad and very disturbing. I'm getting copies for some people who should see it, if they have the nerve. I saw this movie last night, and couldn't sleep, at least not very well. Gave me nightmares.:scared: :(

[knowbody0]

1. not what I expected at all

yes, very disturbing, but well done. share it!

[1]

2. what part disturbed you?

the "he may have done it part?"

or the

"maybe he didn't part?"


what part?

[Dinger]

5. When Donald's Mom

told about how his father beat him because of his "manner," and how this little boy was treated wherever he went. Then the part that really got to me was when his mom told the nun that she knew her son (Donald) was being abused by the priest, but he'd only be at the school till June, so she evidently thought it was o.k. She went on to say that at least there would be a male figure in his life that treated him differently than his father. She was devastated for her son, but didn't know what to do. So sad. I wanted to go into the movie, take that little boy right out of that horror, and rescue him. I felt like the mom, I wanted to do something to help, but couldn't. That kept me awake for hours. I think it will tonight too.

[1]

10. "that she knew her son (Donald) was being abused by the priest"

no.

that was the whole point of the movie.

she didn't know. none of us know. the ambiguity was the fucking point. it was never clarified. ever.

your perceptions become your your reality.



think what you want to think. you might be wrong.

do you get what the the movie might be telling you now?




can you sleep now?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

14. Jesus, Mary and Joseph

I fucking agree with you on something.

[DURHAM D]

22. She did know.

She knew it was an affirming experience for her son. The priest was a respite from the storm for her child.

I have spent enough time talking with gay men over the past 40 years to know that I absolutely can not judge the experience of others. Sometimes what the dominant culture absolutely claims is wrong is truly life saving. I can not judge. Neither can you. Ask them.

[CTyankee]

37. I have to come down on the side of "he did it" or at least "he was close to doing it."

When Streep's character says she phone one of his former parishes and essentially says she has the goods on him, he leaves rather than stay and fight. Of course, it turns out that was a fake maneuver by her: there was no such call. I kept wondering why he didn't fight if he could essentially call her bluff and when no such information was found he could be totally exonerated. My guess is that he might have had some borderline suspect behavior that might have been reported and could be construed as damning proof.

It's a good drama, tho. I love movies with a moral quandary.

[RufusTFirefly]

39. Exactly. Talk about "truth in advertising"!!

The movie was called Doubt after all.

The most honest title since John Sayles' Limbo, which angered a lot of viewers who failed to pay attention to the movie's title. Details, details!

[patrice]

17. You didn't see the same movie I saw. I'm with 1 on this point.

Exploitation and abuse are never okay, but the only one you know for sure who is abusing the boy was his father.

[patrice]

18. This movie has an excellent screenplay. Please watch it again and listen to EVERY word.

[Dinger]

29. I Will

I only saw it once. It sounds like I need to watch it again, without any distractions.

[patrice]

31. It's actually kind of complex, so some stuff is easy to miss.

My husband says that it is a defense of the difference between homosexuality (or should I say potential homosexuality) and pederasty. I think it is also about Love and Responsibility.

[inthebrain]

51. I think your husband has hit the nail on the head

If the priest was gay and hiding his sexuality in the priesthood he would have a feeling out period with other male counterparts. This is EXACTLY where the film plays on the homophobia or bigotry of viewers who don't see a difference between pedophiles and gays.

The long finger nails.

The "am I fat" question to the altar boys.

[Suich]

3. It's been more than a month since I saw it

and I'm still thinking about it!!!

[Baikonour]

4. Great film.

Meryl Streep is brilliant in it, as she is in most of her films.

[NYC_SKP]

6. Gawd, wasn't she awesome?!

[Toucano]

16. She was ROBBED of her little gold naked guy!

Kate was very good in "The Reader", better in "Revolution Road".

Still, Streep was stellar!

[patrice]

13. Very intelligent portrayal of a difficult character, no meat-ax she.

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. I haven't seen it, but have a hunch that if you're predisposed to think that Priests are all bad

then your perspective on the movie will be driven by that predisposition.

I've read posts from DU'ers who've seen the movie that come down on both sides.

[patrice]

15. The same for the principal-nun, but the movie doesn't actually do that.

That's one of the things I admire about it: you see the Good AND Bad in all of the characters.

[Toucano]

27. Exactly.

Every character is fully developed and complex, not a flat stereotype.

Brilliantly conceived, brilliantly executed.

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. I guess I'll be renting it on DVD.

Now my curiosity is piqued.

[hfojvt]

8. Doubt or Dogma?

You can never be sure.

[patrice]

12. I made that mistake earlier today. I'm glad you found it entertaining.

Perhaps you have the luxury of doing one and only one thing at a time, but some of us don't.

[hfojvt]

19. once upon a time

I was at a table with a group of guys who lived one floor above me in the dorm. During the dinner conversation, I said something really stupid. In my own eyes, anyway. As soon as I said it, I thought 'dang that was really stupid to say that.'

However, none of the guys at the table commented on it at all. That just made me think that if I was one of the guys, part of that group, that they would have given me crap for at least the next ten minutes for saying something stupid. In my experience, that is what friends do - they tease each other.

YMMV

Plus, as a marginal aspie and INTJ, it's not like I understand social relations anyway. Sometimes I think every post I make on this board is a mistake, particularly when I am trying to be funny.

[Toucano]

23. Your post was perfectly appropriate.

I didn't understand the response to your post, and I assumed it was a reference to something that happened offline or in another thread.

[hfojvt]

24. my post itself was a reference

which may or may not have been appropriate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5717338&mesg_id=5717415

to me, that is the kind of mistake you laugh about, even as the person who makes it. Because who hasn't gotten the name of a movie or a book or an author/actor/actress wrong at one point or other?

[Toucano]

25. Ah, so my first assumption was right.

Damn, I'm good!

I still don't think it was inappropriate, though.

[Toucano]

9. "I have such doubts!"

The last scene is very compelling.

However, I found it frustrating that so many people were distracted by the "did he" or "didn't he" aspect and completely ignored the central theme...doubt!

[hiphopnation]

41. ...

isn't it possible that the movie fell short in driving home the central theme instead of so many people failing to "get it"?

[Toucano]

42. I really doubt it. SPOILERS

Sorry. :spank:

If the picture had fallen short, no one would have gotten it.

Some viewers were clearly distracted by the pedophilia aspect. If Father Flynn had been implicated in a romantic affair with another adult priest or parish widow instead of a pupil it might not have been such a distraction. Some went in expecting the picture to attack the church and were prepared to defend it. Others expected another pedophilia whitewash and were prepared to attack it.

I think what the viewer brought to the film influenced their experience of it. As far as I am concerned, anyone who wanted to argue about whether Father Flynn was guilty or not didn't get the central theme.

[hiphopnation]

44. and the central them was...

doubting your faith?

put another way: When someone asks what the film is about, what do you say?

[Toucano]

45. Not doubting your faith. MORE SPOILERS.

Doubting EVERYTHING.

A grand part of our identity, our concept of ourselves, is formed by our beliefs.

I am a liberal, feminist, commie, pinko fag. I have a tendency to judge what I see through my glasses, and I am conscious that my beliefs color things. My beliefs are, like everyone's, both taught and learned independently through my experiences. You also have your own ideas that shape your conception of who you are. You have your ideas about what is right, what is wrong.

In the last scene, Sister Aloysius, the woman who believes that ballpoint pens are WRONG, and long fingernails on a man are a sign or IMMORALITY, that Father Flynn has been taking advantage of a young man for sexual gratification, admits to Sister James that she has LIED about a material fact in order to prove herself, her belief, correct. It was a sort of BLACK OPS if you will. A trick.

Sister Aloysius tells Sister James that, "In the pursuit of wrongdoing, one steps away from God." Then says, "But of course, there is a price," and clutches her crucifix. Sister James accepts, seemingly acquiesces, to this answer when she says, "I see."

Then, the steadfast, rock of Gibraltar, battle axe of a nun, Sister Aloysius, begins to weep. She breaks down and says, "I have doubts. I have such doubts."

Doubts about the correctness of her actions, doubts about her beliefs, doubts about her self-defined identity. Ninety percent of what we know is what we tell ourselves.

Not everyone gets to face this in our lives. Through this work, we are presented with the opportunity to examine ourselves without going through the crisis of doubt that Sister Aloysius goes through.

Steadfast in our self-image and beliefs about what is right, we each and everyone go out into the world each day and try to do "what is right", as we define it. Many of us try to insist that others do what we think is right. "Don't go to Wal-Mart, don't say the 'n' word, support same-sex marriage, don't circumcise your son."

Sometimes, we may even take a shortcut because we believe that the ends justify the means. A pacifist who believes that wearing fur is wrong may actually assault someone in advocation of this belief.

But what if we are WRONG?

That is the central theme. DOUBT. Doubt in yourself, your ideas, what you "KNOW" to be true. Isn't there always room for doubt? Hasn't every soul felt that at one time in our life?

[hiphopnation]

46. dayum!

I should have just paid you to give me a glimpse at the startling truth you lay out here because the film did not leave me with 1/8th the profundity I take away from your post.

The point I was trying was this:

If someone asked me what the film was about I would either have to say "doubt" or "molestation" (leaning toward "doubt"), but I personally feel it failed on both fronts and would therefore answer "I have no idea." I do not think is accurate, though, to call it a "distraction" that many people focus on the molestation part of the story; indeed, it's central to the plot.

But as you so eloquently point out, we all bring our own stuff to piece of art (way more eloquently than that) and it is a wholly subjective interaction. Some look and see a profound piece of film making rich with the symbols and subtleties of the human experience others see a half-assed attempt at something deep. Your words and interpretation I respect far more than the film, however, and they're appreciated. :thumbsup:

[Toucano]

48. You are very kind to say that.

I am happy would could share this dialog. Thank you for making me think about things.

[patrice]

11. Excellent film! Intelligent, thought provoking, great ensemble, challenging, intellectual,

emotional, fine balance, sensitive photography . . .

My husband the serious film-buff and I watched Doubt and we were profoundly impressed by its treatment of a subject matter that could have just been nothing but cheap shots.

Excellent, excellent movie!

[norepubsin08]

20. I went to Catholic Schools

and had nuns that slapped me around all the time like that!

[FrenchieCat]

21. How odd! I saw this movie last night as well....with the hubby on Pay per view!

It was a thinking movie.

Meryl Streep is still Number 1 actress in our household.

[SpiralHawk]

32. Saw it over the weekend. Excellent film.

Highly recommended. Portrays the kind of ambiguity that is part of reality -- a part Republicon Homelanders cannot handle, and so they retreat to their frozen ideological concepts, much like the Nun portrayed by Streep.

[shellgame26]

26. just finished downloading it

gonna watch it tonight

[a kennedy]

30. almost right out of the headlines.......

Irish Reform Schools: Thousands Beaten, Raped

DUBLIN — After a nine-year investigation, a commission published a damning report Wednesday on decades of rapes, humiliation and beatings at Catholic Church-run reform schools for Ireland's castaway children.

The 2,600-page report painted the most detailed and damning portrait yet of church-administered abuse in a country grown weary of revelations about child molestation by priests.

The investigation of the tax-supported schools uncovered previously secret Vatican records that demonstrated church knowledge of pedophiles in their ranks all the way back to the 1930s.

Wednesday's five-volume report on the probe _ which was resisted by Catholic religious orders _ concluded that church officials shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest amid a culture of self-serving secrecy.

full article: <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/20/irish-reform-schools-thou_n_205719.html>

[patrice]

33. Actually this movie is a little more complicated than being limited to this issue only.

[a kennedy]

34. right, and I'll be DVDing it this weekend......

[LeftHander]

35. Saw this staged by Milwaukee Rep almost two years ago

Was quite good and also very controversial at the time when Milwaukee arch diocese was still reeling from sex scandals.

[goddess40]

36. The nun that was losing it - librarian from Ghost Busters

I saw the movie when it first came out, it's a well done movie. Although I had a hard time not telling my son about the nun with dementia being from Ghost Busters - one of his favorite movies.

[Wednesdays]

38. K&R

:kick:

[hiphopnation]

40. i found the acting contrived and forced

but i've never been a fan of Hoffman - I often get the sense that he's acting as though he's in front of a mirror, like kinda too self aware.

And what was up with Streep's weird accent? I guess it was supposed to be some kind of north eastern boston "r" type thing, but I found it distracting and her character unfocused overall.

i was very underwhelmed by the whole affair and felt it all rather superficial - it certainly didn't give me nightmares. i thought it was pretty lame.

but i frequently don't get or care for pictures that are oscar noms.

[applegrove]

43. Yup I'm going to have to skip it. Even though I hear the acting is outstanding.

[gauguin57]

47. Spoiler alert ... a major plot point became clearer to me in the movie than in the play ...

I had seen the play on tour (with Cherry Jones, the wonderful, original Sister Aloysius) ... when I saw the movie, a plot point became clearer to me. We're still meant to wonder "did he or didn't he," and wonder what the Sister A. meant with her famous line at the end (lots of possibilities there -- her faith, her having contributed to the promotion of Father Flynn, contending with women's role in the Catholic church, etc. etc.)

But it became clearer to me that when Sister A. and Father Flynn were talking in the office, HE was thinking that what she was talking about was that she had realized he is gay (which someone at his previous church may have discovered), but SHE was accusing him of abusing a child. Their communication got all screwed up amid all the tension.

My friends and I talked about both the play and movie for hours after we saw each. THIS is what art is all about!

[LAGC]

49. An excellent movie!

Just saw it today. Much better than I expected.

Leaves you wondering whether the priest really did it or not.

And in the end: the nun ends up questioning her own faith.

Magnificent!

[inthebrain]

50. The general meaning behind the film that was based on molestation of children that has been going on

for decades.

Much of it centers on the male dominance of the church heirarchy and their rights to conceal their behavior from females of the order. The thing is that the priest either did it or was planning to do it. He was in the "nesting stage" of the relationship with the child.

It's telling at the end when one of the boys sitting in the pews cracks a smile when he hears the priest is leaving.

There's a lot of smybolism in the movie and things meant to throw you. Overall, I think it's meant to show the nature of the sexual abuse scandal from the nuns POV and how this carried on for decades.