Okay, I'm going to ask a forbidden question. After my DU'er brothers and sisters read it, they'll

[cherokeeprogressive]

say no one would ask it BUT me...

Here goes...

Is there any correlation whatsoever, ANY correlation, to the ratio of "undocumented" residents as compared to "documented" residents when it comes to budget problems as it relates to state government budget shortfalls? In other words, do "undocumented" residents contribute to the shortfalls in any way whatsoever?

California has the worst budget problems in the nation. California ALSO has, as compared to the other states in this country, more than TWICE as many "undocumented" residents as the second place state. California has MORE "undocumented" residents than the number #2, #3, and #4 states COMBINED.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-people-estimated-number-illegal-immigrants

http://www.statemaster.com/red/pie/peo_est_num_of_ill_imm-people-estimated-number-illegal-immigrants

Here's the poll question:

Do "undocumented" residents constitute a "drain" on state resources?

[uppityperson]

1. Other. Correlation does not equal causation. eom

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. Well that doesn't really answer the question, does it? It's pretty simple... Question... Yes. No.

And I'm not being snarky. If I'm totally in the wrong, tell me. I can take it. I've been wrong before...

[armyowalgreens]

17. You clearly don't understand the basis for statistical evidence

Simply because there is correalation, that does not mean one thing causes another.

If I feed my dog and he gets fat, and the stock market goes up every day that the dog gets fatter, there is correalation. But my dogs weight had no bearing on the rise in the stock market.

The fact that there are so many illegal immigrants in California and that they have the largest budget shortfall could merely be a coincidence. Unless you have evidence to support otherwise, there is no point in speculating.

So this is not a yes or no question. It a question that only brings more questions.

[kick-ass-bob]

55. A study was done some time ago (an an example of this)

to show that there was a correlation between cycles of the moon and the amount of garbage picked up in Los Angeles County. Full moon = more trash. Positive correlation was shown (statistically significant) but I dare anyone to show that the cycles of the moon has any sort of causation on trash.

[pampango]

15. California also has the highest percentage of Asian-Americans. Maybe the budget problems are their

fault. :) There's certainly a correlation there, too.

I suppose it's easier to blame "undocumented" Hispanics, however.

[anigbrowl]

46. Excellent point.

[uppityperson]

47. Surfers also. I blame the Beach Boys, Frankie and Annette

[elleng]

3. Dunno.

California's problems related to OTHER things.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5720208

[Soylent Brice]

26. thank you, i missed that.

[Mind_your_head]

4. I'd bet that there is some "good" undocumented workers do in California.....

Perhaps they do some kind of WORK that Californians wouldn't do w/o UNION protection.

There is a LOT of produce grown in Cali, for example...

eom

[ixion]

13. my thoughts exactly

they could have, in fact, helped California out because they're willing to work for less than US citizens.

[readmoreoften]

5. No.

* Many undocumented persons pay taxes through having an SS#
* Many undocumented workers own homes and pay property taxes.
* Many undocumented person participate in our economy like any other native born person.
* The insane and inhuman concentration camps like the Don Hutto Center most likely cost more to maintain than even the fabled "immigrant usurper."
* Texas has the 2nd largest number of undocumented immigrants and we have one of the strongest economies, if not the strongest, in the US right now.
Evidence of this is that according to Forbes the top places to get work in the US were Austin, Houston, Dallas/Fort Worth Arlington, San Antonio. If our budget is failing, it is because our Governor is an asshole. Who elected this asshole? White nativists.

How about white college students who work under the table in college or don't report all their tips to the IRS? Are they responsible for the downfall of the state budget?

Appeals to nationalism are the last thing we need right now.

[Fla_Democrat]

31. I've always hear that

but never understood it.

* Many undocumented persons pay taxes through having an SS#

Isn't that part of the documentation? If they have a SSN, or a FEIN, isn't that a result of the legal documentation process? :shrug:

[EFerrari]

38. No. A lot of times, when they come here, they try to buy the number

of a deceased worker and pay into that account -- there are variations of this set up. So, they pay in and do not take anything out. On top of that, there are all kinds of taxes like sales tax that have nothing to do with presenting ID.

[Fla_Democrat]

42. Ok, so

Thanks for that, so it's fraud? They use the identity number of someone else? What if the person who's number is being used isn't dead, is there any repercussions on them when they file their return, but the government has a record of their account making a lot more money than they have claimed? Anyone ever been snared by the kind, gentle, understanding, IRS ( :sarcasm: ) because the numbers didn't add up? :shrug:

I know, you were just helping me understand, and I thank you for it. :yourock: It just seems to spawn more questions, and if anyone should know, it would be someone on this board.

Thanks for the tip on sales tax.

[EFerrari]

48. The IRS is so screwed up, they rarely catch it.

But, yes, it can cause problems but only very rarely does.

One of my friends was here without papers for many years before she found a way to become a citizen. She paid into one of those dead accounts, she paid sales tax. When she bought her home, she paid property tax.

The Republicans say these people don't pay taxes and get a free ride. The truth is, the goal is to stay below the radar, not to avoid paying taxes. You try to avoid coming into contact with the government in any way at all.

/oops

[Xithras]

44. Yes, but most pay no state income taxes, which is where much state funding comes from.

A huge percentage of undocumented immigrants (an estimated 80% in the LA area) work "under the table" and take their pay in cash. Not only are they not paying Social Security, but more importantly they're not paying California income taxes, which fund a large portion of our states programs. Federal tax payments are largely irrelevant to the states situation, and sales tax payments largely go to local authorities and not the state. The state government is dependent on property and state income tax revenues, neither of which receive many contributions from undocumented workers.

[county worker]

49. I would really like to see evidence of the 80% who work under the table in LA.

Employers who pay under the table are liable for the taxes if they are not withheld from workers pay. I really can't accept your statement without proof.

[Grinchie]

53. If you are not required to pay Federal Income Tax, I don't think you are required

I recently watched America, Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo.

It was a real eye opener in regards to the reality that there is no law mandating individuals earning a wage for their labor to pay income tax. The conclusion most easily found was that the law defines taxable income as profits and gains, which is not the same as wages for labor.

Corporate taxes are very clearly a legal imposition of taxes, but taxes on wages are not covered by a written law. In fact, many taxpayers have requested that Government officials identify the exact section of law that mandates a wage earner to file a 1040. They have been unable to do so, because the idea that Taxes on an individual are mandatory is a FRAUD. In fact, the law states that Taxes on wages are a "Voluntary" contribution to Government, and Russo in the film actually gets a Former Head of the IRS to state that "Voluntary" is a Euphemism for "Madatory".

The movie actually spurred me to do research and I have discovered nothing written in less than 25th year college language that states that Individuals are required to file an Income tax return.

So, where do this leave the majority of people that file a return regularly with the trust that the Government wouldn't mislead them? Well, it turns out that they are being mislead, and they are willingly going along with the myth promoted by the media, court systems, and the Government that taxes on individual wages are mandatory instead of voluntary.

Let me make it entirely clear. Taxes are legal and spelled out in the letter of the law when applied to Corporations and Big or Small Businesses. This is what is termed the cost of doing business in America. Those legal taxes are no small amount. But the amount raised by convincing the majority of Americans to voluntarily submit to a direct tax on their labor, is an incredibly large amount.

Now, the way the system is set up right now, if you work for an employer, your wages are Garnished before you see a penny, resulting in a net payment you live on. If you choose to not file a tax return, in many cases you will LOSE that money that has been witheld from your paycheck if you do not make a claim on it. This system FORCES the individual to make a claim on money earned but never directly paid in order to get it back. At the same time, in order to process that claim, you are basically submitting yourself to a rigorous examination, where if you perhaps make an error, you could possibly be penalized under the law, which violates the 5th Amendment protecting one from self incrimination.

So, as soon as you go after the money the IRS and Willing Corporate or Business paymasters have withheld, you are now immediately enrolled in State Income tax, because in most states, filing a federal tax return almost immediately mandates an equivalent State tax return.

The absolute genius behind this is that it reinforces the myth that an Individual's wages for labor is taxable. It is a positive feedback loop that creates incentive to file a return (To get back what was never paid to you and remained ghost income), which then triggers State laws to require a Local State Return.

So, if this is the case, it appears that the undocumented residents working under the table are working in the most natural system there is. If one acknowledges that there is no law mandating taxes on an individual's wages in exchange for his labor, then there is no issue.

Considering that we are taxed directly on everything -- Sales Tax, Gas Tax, Weight Tax, Phone Taxes, Energy Taxes, Water Taxes, Mosquito Abatement Taxes, School Taxes, Property Taxes, Luxury Taxes, you will see that their is no shortage of tax revenue, unless you're greedy, and then you will enforce the myth of Income taxes for the whole shebang.

The undocumented resident will most certainly be paying Fuel Tax, Sales Tax, Phone Tax, and perhaps Property taxes, so they do indeed provide a benefit to the taxation system.

When one thinks about the ramifications of the fact that their is no law mandating taxes on wgaes for an individuals labor, it's no wonder that the Politicians and Government Official run for cover when confronted with the simple request for the text of the law.

Check it out. Don't take my word for it. You will spend a long time trying to disprove what I relate here. Since I was unable to penetrate the the legalese of the tax code, I'm hoping this post will trigger some additional research by those that would like to know more regarding this.

As far as I am concerned, after Enron, and the Invasion of Iraq, I withdrew from the Rat Race and have no longer worked for a traditional "Wage". I have worked for myself for many years, and I can vouch for its ability to reduce overhead and create peace of mind. I no longer provide money for the War machine, bailouts for Wall Street insiders, Insurance companies, etc. I still pay my property taxes, so I support School, Fire, Police, Libraries, Dog Catchers, etc.., so I am at least supporting my LOCAL community, and not some slimeball like Chalabi, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Monsanto, Titan or CACI.

I haven't filed a return because there is no reason to do so. My labor supports my immediate lifestyle and I don't work for "Wages". I work for my pleasure and the enhancement of my life. It is truly remarkable what the freedom of dealing with ones own life can do for ones happiness. To think of the years trapped in a cubicle doing a job that in the end was meaningless, and disappeared overnight, only to be reproduced in India somewhere to create another batch of willing drones, spending their wages on more consumption (and taxes).

I guess I'm one of those people that have dropped out of the workforce that the Government doesn't bother to track. When one realizes the scope of the Fraud in which the Government is a key participant, it's pretty easy to see why we are continually bombarded with Anti-Immigrant rhetoric, wedge issues, and misleading data and economic policies.

The jig is up, and the Government knows it, which is why we see no change in the current Democratic administration. They are setting up the defensive line for when the Citizens truly wake up in mass and refuse to cooperate with the fraud anymore.

[TheFarseer]

68. many undocumented workers

file tax returns but instead of paying taxes, they get back all their withholding and $5K (or so) in EIC and kid related credits. Many were not even in the country for the 6 months needed to be eligible for those credits. Just sayin'

[depakid]

6. I don't know about California- but I'll give you thiis bit of analysis from Oregon

which, btw: doesn't have a monster sales tax- so you'll have to factor it in:

From the Oregon Center for Public Policy

Undocumented Workers Are Taxpayers, Too

Public discussion in Oregon about undocumented immigrant workers and their families has tended to focus on the costs to Oregon of providing certain public services to these families. Relatively little is mentioned about the contributions undocumented workers make to Oregon.

Undocumented workers are an important part of Oregon’s economy. The work they perform is vital in certain industries. In addition, a substantial portion of the roughly $2 billion they earn in income each year is spent on goods, services, and taxes in Oregon, to the benefit of the state economy.

<snip>

How much do undocumented Oregon immigrants pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, and excise taxes?

* Undocumented immigrants contribute annually to Oregon between $65 million and $90 million in property taxes, state income taxes, and excise taxes, such as gas and cigarette taxes.

How much do undocumented Oregon workers pay in Social Security and Medicare taxes?

Undocumented workers may also have Social Security and Medicare taxes withheld from their paychecks. OCPP again conservatively assumes that half of undocumented workers in Oregon pay these payroll taxes. These taxes help to fund federal social programs that will not benefit undocumented workers unless in the future they become legal U.S. residents.

OCPP estimates that undocumented immigrant workers in Oregon pay between $56 million and $79 million annually in Social Security taxes, which is matched with employer contributions.

Undocumented immigrants in Oregon pay another $13 million to $18 million annually in Medicare taxes that are also matched by employer contributions.

Oregon employers pay $28 million to $39 million in state unemployment insurance taxes on behalf of undocumented workers.

Undocumented workers are not eligible to receive unemployment insurance (UI) benefits. As a result, their families, their employers, and their communities are less stable following layoffs than they otherwise would be.

Even though undocumented workers are ineligible for UI benefits, some Oregon employers pay UI taxes on behalf of undocumented workers. These UI payments to the state unemployment insurance trust fund help cover unemployment insurance benefits for authorized Oregon workers.

Conclusion

Public debate about undocumented workers in Oregon should be informed by an understanding of the significant contributions these workers make to Oregon’s economy as workers, consumers, and taxpayers. The labor of undocumented workers is crucial to certain industries. They purchase products and services in Oregon with the roughly $2 billion in income they earn annually.

Finally, they are taxpayers, contributing millions of dollars annually to Oregon’s tax base and to the federal Social Security and Medicare systems. These taxes paid by undocumented workers total about $134 million to $187 million annually. Taxes paid by Oregon employers on behalf of undocumented workers total about $97 million to $136 million annually.

Undocumented workers are ineligible for the Oregon Health Plan, food stamps, and temporary cash assistance. They may receive some emergency services, and their children (most of whom are probably U.S. citizens) may attend public school. At the same time, undocumented workers contribute substantially to Oregon’s economy, through their labor, their purchases, and the taxes they pay.

More here: http://www.ocpp.org/cgi-bin/display.cgi?page=issue070410immig

[Libertyfirst]

39. Thank you for providing hard data. Real info is hard come by.

[depakid]

51. What's impressive just how many IGNORE THE HARD DATA- preferring emotional opinion

just like Republicans do on issues like this (and many others).

Doesn't exactly give one confidence that America will every pull out of its decline.

[Syrinx]

7. I don't know the answer to your question

:shrug:

[Fumesucker]

8. Since you want others to answer the question perhaps you should tell us what you think first..

That you would even ask the question at all kind of leads me to think you believe undocumented immigrants do indeed contribute to California's budget woes.

Well?

[Hippo_Tron]

9. Using your data and some data I found on state budget deficits

I made this scatter diagram...



Since most of the data is kind of clustered instead of tending toward a straight upward sloping line, it would suggest that the correlation is not strong. A simple linear regression would give a more precise description of the strength of the correlation but I'm too tired to do that tonight.

Also I only used the states that I could get data on the immigrant statistics from your source and budget statistics from this source...

http://www.swivel.com/data_columns/spreadsheet/9565964

I got about 28 or 29 states + DC. Perhaps all 50 states would give a different picture, but again I am too tired to search for data for all 50.

[armyowalgreens]

19. While there is mild correlation, it doesn't pass the fat pencil test.

[sendero]

20. Very nice work..

.... some actual data.

[On the Road]

35. Thank You Hippo Tron

it is nice to see some data points.

Any chance you could use Excel to do a correlation and post the number?" Example: CORREL(B1:B29,C1:C29)

[Hippo_Tron]

66. It's .78, which is between a strong and weak correlation

If you consider California, Arizona, and Nevada to be outliers it goes all the way down to .34 which is a weak correlation. Or if I did all 50 states it would probably go down as well since I have the three states with by far the largest undocumented immigrant populations in the sample but just a little over half of all of the states represented in the data sample.

[On the Road]

69. Wow -- 78% is Higher Than I Would Have Thought

The questions now are:

1 - whether the states you couldn't find were random or not, and

2 - whether there is a common cause of both metrics. If there is not a reasonable proposal, it would seem to be a good argument for causation.

[Hippo_Tron]

70. I don't think it was random but at some point I might get some better data to see for sure

The thing is that California, Nevada, and Arizona really skew the data. If you look at the rest of the states it's a really weak correlation.

As far as causation goes, budget deficits are caused by governments spending more money than they take in tax revenue. Somebody can argue that the budget deficit is caused by providing services for undocumented immigrants and I could just as validly argue that it's caused by not taxing rich people enough.

Regardless, I think the fact that there is a positive correlation at all is certainly interesting.

[pnwmom]

10. California has some practices that make budgeting harder than in other states.

Among them, a two-thirds majority required for passing a budget, Prop. 13 and other propositions tying lawmakers' hands, a history of not balancing the budget. It's those practices that you should be looking at.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-california-budget24-2009may24,0,1725878.story?page=2

Only two other states require two-thirds of its Legislature to approve a state budget. The rule was added to the California Constitution by voters in 1933.

The idea was to make it exceedingly difficult for the Legislature to raise taxes. And it is. But it also has become exceedingly difficult for lawmakers to merely do their job and get any spending plan in place -- with or without new taxes.

SNIP

Voters have created a complicated and conflicting web of spending requirements and tax limitations. They have told the state to borrow billions for new programs without any plan for repaying the loans.

Last week's special election embodied the problem. Voters refused to reallocate money they had previously ordered spent on mental health and children's programs, but they also refused to raise revenues with tax increases and a plan to borrow against the lottery.

Building a serious rainy day fund

The one we have is full of escape hatches. It is regularly raided, leaving nothing to tap when the state finds itself in the kind of jam it is in now.

Getting some real oversight

Other states keep track of how well every program is functioning, requiring department heads to meet a strict list of "performance standards" or risk losing money. California has resisted this for years.

[Grinchie]

59. The recent trend on demonizing Prop 13 is a Fraud

The reality of Proposition 13 is that it enables long term resident to not be blindsided by huge annual increases in property taxes.

The Powers That Be (PTB) in California know that id keeps them from a large percentage of Real Property Tax Money simply because it imposes a 3% a year cap on Appraised value.

When one realizes that this cap goes away as soon as the Property is sold, you can see very clearly why "Home Flipping" became all the rage during the Housing Bubble. Flipping a home, with the promises of short term profits enabled the reassessments of millions of Homes in California which were previously protected under Proposition 13.

It is the simple fact that Tax authorities want to make the most money that they can, that the incentive for convincing people to give up the long term benefit of Proposition 13 for a simple lump sum.

To be honest, take the owner of a Duplex who bought it 40 years ago. The taxes on this property are less than 1500.00 today, due to the fact that Prop 13 is in place. Most of the taxes are add on fees for Shool, Sewer and other services, so there is no savings there.

Now, sell that Duplex at the peak of the bubble, for say 800,000, and you now have annual taxes of about 10,000 dollars. Considering that at most you could wring 30,000 dollars gross out of a fully occupied rental property, that leaves you with almost 30% of Gross income taken by property taxes. Now add in Management fees, Maintenance and repair costs (It's been 40 years after all), Insurance (Manadatory because you have a crushing mortgage with associated liens by the bank on said mortgage) and you end up with a negative net income.

This is the magic of the Housing Bubble that taught people to ignore the reality of running a business, the costs of inflating housing prices, and the realities of Government who bases tax rates on ever increasing growth.

If Proposition 13 were allowed to go away, many businesses that did not jump onto the Flip for Money bandwagon would go out of business, because they are the only ones that had the stability of not being socked with extravagant taxes like the rest of the speculators were.

[Hannah Bell]

11. how do undocumented residents drain state resources?

[RB TexLa]

43. They don't, they add to them. I don't know how that lie has been sold to people.

Well, actually I do.

[bobburgster]

12. Don't know, but curious....

as to what others have to say. Any studies?

[Starry Messenger]

14. Didn't Enron cost our state $30 billion dollars?

I'm just throwing that out there. I seriously doubt that undocumented residents could possibly make that much of a difference to our budget. I suspect that large corporations would like everyone to think that though. My own school district suffered a budget crisis when Oracle sued to have their property taxes reassessed downwards. That took quite a few million out of the projected budget. Blaming "illegals" is just a convenient scapegoat.

[marmar]

16. California's budget problems can be traced to ridiculous tax policies and political foolishness.....

.... the Blame the Illegulz meme doesn't work.

[Junkdrawer]

18. No Employer Benefits = Bigger Government Dependency....

So if one population is more exploited than another....

[sendero]

21. While it is not clear..

... that there is a definite provable answer to your question, one thing is clear.

When unemployment hits 12% Americans will no longer be able to afford the luxury of ceding low paying jobs to immigrants. That is a fact.

[pampango]

25. Indeed, recessions bring out the anti-immgrant bias in people. How low does unemployment have to go

in the future before we decide that we can again welcome immigrants? Can we be pro-immigrant at 3%, 4% or 5% unemployment and let our anti-immigrant sentiments emerge when the rate is 10% or 12%? Sometimes seems that those who bash immigrants are happy to use the recession to bolster their arguments, but never get around to describing at what point we can get back to our culture of diversity and welcoming immigrants.

[sendero]

27. I'm not "bashing" ..

... anything or anyone, merely pointing out the SIMPLE FACTS.

Americans are not going to starve in the streets so we can offer employment opportunities to immigrants. If that offends you, TOUGH SHIT.

[Grinchie]

64. I'm not starving, I don't work for a Wage, and I admire the immigrants resolve

In fact, McCain was right when he offered $50.00 and hour to go pick lettuce for a season and said that you couldn't handle it.

While I disagree with him, as physically I could easily harvest lettuce for a season, the reality is that I would not subject myself to such a toxic environment and compromise my health in future years. It's just not worth it. There are plenty of shallow thinking individuals who would trade their health unknowingly for a quick buck, but thats what education is all about. The less education one has, the less likely it will be for them to realize how badly they are being screwed, and go along willingly with inhuman working conditions.

Undocumented workers don't have the ability to complain like American workers, so many of the jobs would just disappear if Americans actually got a chance to participate, because the outcry would illuminate this situation.

Americans wont starve, they'd just eat Corn products and do away with the selection we have now and give up on lettuce, apples, pears, peaches, and all the other crops that require farm labor to pick and process.

I think Americans will just walk away from the system until the system collapses under it's own weight.

[Grinchie]

61. The fact is that Most Americans would not tolerate the working conditions

that the low paying jobs have been allowed to operate under.

You really think that people that know that working in an Agricultural field picking produce subjects them to systemic poisoning by pesticide residue? I'm sure that you'll find a bunch of desperate droputs that will sell their long term health for short term gain, but I doubt the majority of unemployed Americans would do so.

The undocumented laborer is subjected to horrendous workplace environments which are relatively unknown because this practice is necessary for the function of many cities and industries. The white collar jobs are mostly for show, and would make little difference to anyone if they were to disappear, yet we value those more than labor that actually gets food from field to table, as toxic as it may be.

Unemployment is way beyond 12% already, you just happen to believe that the Government is Honest and all knowing in it reporting of numbers that it really has no clue about.

The current unemployment numbers are a best guess. The current Consumer Price Index is a complete fabrication.

[vincent_vega_lives]

22. Being undocumented has nothing to do with race

It is coincidental. Other countries have the exact same issue and involves white East Europeans.

Illegal workers are ripe to be exploited by employers not willing to pay for legal residents. They drive down low end wages and deny the poorest of the US labor pool jobs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. I was also wondering when "undocumented" became a race.

[mdmc]

23. I don't think so

or is that what the Catholic Church would like me to believe? :tinfoilhat:

[KharmaTrain]

24. They Also Put Money Back In The Economy & Tax Bases

Undocummented workers don't live in a vacuum. They consume...food, clothes, gas, cellphones et all...each that have taxes assesed to them. Thus the strawman game that is played that these people are total drains on the economy...when in essence they are the engine driving what's left of the state's economy. Then there's all the tax money their labor provides...but that just spins heads too much when you try to figure in that equation.

The drain is caused by the people who hire them...willingly skipping paying the taxes and benefits that mount to far more dollars than a single undocummented. If you want to re-coup the "drain" "these people" create, go after the one who benefits the most.

[CTyankee]

32. They also repopulate our country with younger workers in their prime reproductive years.

Fewer Americans are having large families and health care advances are keeping us older demographically. Immigrant families tend to be larger. This fact, along with their numbers, should be encouraging to us. We'll have future workers able to support the older ones who will be retiring soon.

Why doesn't anybody bring this up?

[KharmaTrain]

33. Very Good Point...

The basic reason...need it be said...is that those who are using "illegal aliens" as an issue do so baesd along racial and class discrimination rather than the real economic impacts. It's strawmen galore as the full picture isn't disclosed...only the ones that serve the political and financial agendas of the biggest noisemakers.

I've long favored a weeklong strike by the "illegals"...shut down all the fast food joints and watch the produce shelves go bare. But I still doubt they'll get the point...hate trumps logic and reason every time.

Cheers...

[CTyankee]

34. In olden times, conquest (enslavement of the conquered) was a classic repopulation tool.

Since that option is pretty limited right now and since pro-natalist programs in our country tend not to work (as long as family planning and abortion are available) we need immigration. I can't think of one other way of doing it here...

[anonymous171]

40. Because no one has a problem with legal immigrants. nt

[EFerrari]

57. Oh, sure they do. When was the last time you listened to the wing nuttery

going full bore? The terms get very slippery. The "legal" part is only window dressing.

[pampango]

65. Exactly. Stressing the "legal" aspect makes them seem less narrow minded.

Suggest similar numbers of legal immigrants in place of illegal immigration and the importance of the "legal" issue is replaced by a host of other reasons why any immigration is not good.

[depakid]

52. And- since they don't recieve benefits for many things that they're taxed on- they subsidize others

who'd have a lesser pool of money to draw from without their revenue contributions.

People don't like to hear that though- messes with their simplisic belief systems.

[varelse]

28. Is cheap labor a drag on California's economy?

Immigrants plant, tend, and harvest our food, take care of our kids after school, clean our office buildings and homes, landscape our homes, work in warehouses and factories, ring up our retail purchases, for minimum wage or less, and many of them pay taxes (including Social Security) without collecting benefits.

The effect of illegal immigrants here has been to mask our state's economic problems and delay the inevitable crisis, not to cause or exacerbate it (IMO).

[anonymous171]

41. Yes. nt

[EFerrari]

50. No. "Cheap labor", which I do not defend, keeps prices down

but grows the economy.

[anonymous171]

60. It also keeps wages down.

Which is not good.

[EFerrari]

62. Wages have been lagging since Rayguns. n/t

[anonymous171]

67. Of course.

Cheap illegal immigrant labor is not the source of the problem, although it's definitely exacerbating it.

[mrs_p]

29. correlation is a statistical term

and requires you do the stats before forming an opinion

[WhiteTara]

30. our documented alien is one of our

biggest problems. the boobengroper has decimated the state. First through his stolen special election (riverside county had touch screen voting machines) he received that position to keep Davis and Bustemante from suing Enron for $9Billion stolen during the gas crisis. And then he won by removing the car tax that charged more for expensive cars than cheap ones. So his hummer buddies got a great deal and the rest of us got F*CKED

[bemildred]

36. Well, it depresses wages, and therefore tax revenues, but that's about it.

Generally they still pay more in taxes than they get back in services.

[EFerrari]

37. Nope. Those workers add to our economy and we've always had them.

They also don't sit on the idiot legislature or in the Governor's office. lol

[immoderate]

54. That's my opinion too, FWIW.

I've run the numbers for my California friends several different ways. Illegal workers pay sales taxes and make money for their employers. That more than offsets the cost to the state.

--imm

[EFerrari]

56. I'll never forget how my single mom told me one time that

she had paid more income taxes than the GoodYear plant in our neighborhood. Maybe we're going after the wrong people. :crazy:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Only when they don't pay the docking fees on their yachts.

Or, the property tax on their mansions.

[Zorra]

58. Apparently, yes, according to this LA Times columnist:

* There were 2.8 million illegal immigrants living in California in 2006, the last year for which there are relatively good figures, according to the nonpartisan Public Policy Institute of California. That represented about 8% of the state's population and roughly a quarter of the nation's illegal immigrants. About 90% of California's illegal immigrants were from Latin America; 65% from Mexico.

* There are roughly 19,000 illegal immigrants in state prisons, representing 11% of all inmates. That's costing $970 million during the current fiscal year. The feds kick in a measly $111 million, leaving the state with an $859 million tab.

If you figure that the children of illegal immigrants attending K-12 schools approximates the proportion of illegal immigrants in the population, the bill currently comes to roughly $4 billion. Most is state money; some local property taxes.

* Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to welfare, called CalWORKs. But their citizen children are. Roughly 190,000 kids are receiving welfare checks that pass through their parents. The cost: about $500 million, according to the nonpartisan Legislative Analyst's Office.

http://www.latimes.com/news/columnists/la-me-cap2-2009feb02,0,418500.column

These statistics, if reasonably accurate, seem to indicate that yes, there is a very real correlation between the number of undocumented residents in California and the budget shortfall.

Here is another website with some statistics relative to the OP.

http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2008/02/immigrants_incl.html