Help me out - do the Geneva Conventions reduce the Bill of Rights to "a God-damned piece of paper?"

[derby378]

I asked somebody why everyone who's involved in the torture debate always relies on the Geneva Conventions and never on the Fifth Amendment (outlawing torture to force confessions) and the Eighth Amendment (outlawing torture as punishment) of our own United States Constitution.

The answer I got is something like this: the Constitution declares that any international treaties or agreements we enter into also become the supreme law of the land. Since we signed onto the Geneva Conventions, they became the law of the land. And when the Bush administration decided to ignore the Geneva Conventions, they cannot be faulted for failing to live up to whatever oaths they took to preserve and defend the Constituion because those portions of the Constitution have been rendered inoperative by the Geneva Conventions. Thus, they are also harder to prosecute on similar grounds.

Is this true? Something smells really fishy here, and I could sure use some help in this regard.

[derby378]

1. Kick (n/t)

[ColbertWatcher]

2. What I don't understand is ...

... why is it that whenever the idea of "international law" comes up, the GOPers always assume that it is to impose foreign laws on Americans and not the other way around--to spread our "values," and "democracy" to the greater world?

[derby378]

3. If the world enforced that "international law," Rumsfeld would languish in the Hague now

I believe he's wanted for arrest in France on charges of war crimes. Problem is, Rumsfeld visited France last year, IIRC, and slipped out of the country without getting caught.

[ColbertWatcher]

4. I thought the Germans that went after him? n/t

[derby378]

5. In theory, German agents can arrest a war crimes suspect in any UN member-state

Don't know the details offhand, but I wonder what would happen if they tried that in America.

[ColbertWatcher]

7. I did not know that! Thank you! n/t

[Snazzy]

6. the GC is literally in our law

that's why.

From: http://phronesisaical.blogspot.com/2009/04/quick-review-of-torture-law.html

Torture is prohibited by federal law in Title 18 of the United States Code, Part I, Chapter 113C, § 2340A. Torture:

(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life. (b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.

Torture is defined in Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113C, § 2340. Definitions:

“torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control....

A war crime is defined in Title 18, Part I, Chapter 118, § 2441. War crimes (c):

(c) Definition.— As used in this section the term “war crime” means any conduct—
(1) defined as a grave breach in any of the international conventions signed at Geneva 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party;
(2) prohibited by Article 23, 25, 27, or 28 of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed 18 October 1907;
(3) which constitutes a grave breach of common Article 3 (as defined in subsection (d)) when committed in the context of and in association with an armed conflict not of an international character; or
(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3 May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol, willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.

(d) Common Article 3 Violations.—
(1) Prohibited conduct.— In subsection (c)(3), the term “grave breach of common Article 3” means any conduct (such conduct constituting a grave breach of common Article 3 of the international conventions done at Geneva August 12, 1949), as follows:
(A) Torture.— The act of a person who commits, or conspires or attempts to commit, an act specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control for the purpose of obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation, coercion, or any reason based on discrimination of any kind.
(B) Cruel or inhuman treatment.— The act of a person who commits, or conspires or attempts to commit, an act intended to inflict severe or serious physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions), including serious physical abuse, upon another within his custody or control...
(D) Murder.— The act of a person who intentionally kills, or conspires or attempts to kill, or kills whether intentionally or unintentionally in the course of committing any other offense under this subsection, one or more persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including those placed out of combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause...
(G) Rape.— The act of a person who forcibly or with coercion or threat of force wrongfully invades, or conspires or attempts to invade, the body of a person by penetrating, however slightly, the anal or genital opening of the victim with any part of the body of the accused, or with any foreign object.
(H) Sexual assault or abuse.— The act of a person who forcibly or with coercion or threat of force engages, or conspires or attempts to engage, in sexual contact with one or more persons, or causes, or conspires or attempts to cause, one or more persons to engage in sexual contact....

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Same site has good run down of all the treaties with links. So it's the Bill or rights like you mentioned, US code, and the GC and other treaties (UN Conv. Against Torture a pretty obvious one, we signed that too).

Oh, edit--I haven't read anything that suggests we throw anything out. All of this in force. Obligatory: I'm not a lawyer

[derby378]

8. Kick for the morning crew (n/t)