We are in denial right now if we don't think we are in a real war here

[AllentownJake]

About two months ago I read an article where James Dobson was saying they lost the culture war. It read like a surrender but it also encouraged them to continue the fight. I was wondering at the time what he was getting at. Today, I now understand.

28 years of the Christian right's involvement in politics, 20 out of 28 years in the White House and they have less power on the social issues they were advocating than they had when they started.

Gay Marriage is becoming legal in many states and they have made absolutely no progress on the abortion debate. These people are giving up on the political solution option because they realize they have lost the political solution battle.

When fundamentalist lose the political solution battle, they turn to one thing, violence. They have used it in the past and they will be even more driven now than ever to use it in the future.

We need to be prepared mentally, spiritually (if you are a spiritual person), and be alert to this new threat.

These people are dangerous, they believe that God is on their side. They are more similar to the people who attacked NY 8 years ago than I wish I'd ever have to admit. They live amongst us, they are our neighbors. They exist in every state from Vermont to Kansas.

True spiritual people don't assume God is on their side, they do what they think is right and pray he is.

[drm604]

1. K&R

Well said. The last gasp will likely be desperate and violent.

[Triana]

2. domestic terrorism is a very real threat to us all. today was the wake-up call.n/t

[Greyhound]

12. It always has been, we just have a new name for it and a new surrender of freedoms

to use against it.

This is a police matter and the criminal's tactics don't change a damn thing. Demand enforcement. Don't panic.

[AllentownJake]

13. I'm not calling for spying on our fellow citizens

I'm saying be prepared to see more of this. Keep your eyes open when you are at overtly liberal events.

[Greyhound]

17. But I'm calling for "our" new administration to reverse the MCA and push for the repeal

of the "Patriot Act". I'm also wondering why I'm not hearing many other voices echoing this. What I do hear are a lot of people calling for the use of these obscenities in this case.

[Triana]

26. Agreed - Oklahoma City et al were also wake-up calls. I also think the "Patriot Act"

should be repealed.

[AllentownJake]

30. We don't have to listen to their phone calls without warrants

They freely post their rants and plans on the web.

You can probably get a warrant on half of Freerepublic right now from any judge in the country.

[MrModerate]

3. You're making the same mistake Bush made. Let's not go down this road again.

"War" means an organized conflict between known combatants, on a huge scale, consuming substantial amounts of a State's resources, and with centrally led forces pursuing carefully analyzed strategies and employing professional tactics (even an ineptly conducted war will have many of these aspects). If someone is making war on you, your response needs to be appropriate to the threat.

"Terrorism," on the other hand is perpetrated by loosely allied bands of zealots attempting to force change through fear or punish as many of the enemy as they can reach. It's decentralized, precipitated by small bands inspired by some more-or-less central concept, but not centralized leadership. A society needs to respond appropriately to a terrorist threat when faced.

Bush did neither. He was faced with terrorism and responded with war. The intelligent response to terrorism is more the job of law enforcement (sometimes international law enforcement) than of the military.

That's where we are today. I certainly hope the FBI will be talking to Dobson, Reed, Ailes, and O'Reilly in the near future.

[BlooInBloo]

7. +1000000

[Greyhound]

14. "Terrorism" is a tactic and it is as old as pissed off people.

This is a law enforcement issue and doesn't call for anything other than that.

This nation was founded by "terrorists" and has engaged in "terrorism" for it's entire existence, as has nearly every other nation on earth.

It's just a buzzword to panic people.

Beat them at their own game, don't panic.

[Echo In Light]

27. Bush neither 'faced' terrorism, nor was "The Decider" when it came to wars of aggression (PNAC)

[Occulus]

36. You missed the part where it's THEM calling it a "war" for that entire time

That "last 28 years" bit in the OP?

They've called it a "war" for that entire time.

The language being used is not of our making, and long predates the Shrub maladministration.

[leftstreet]

4. I think this will seriously harm the Religious Right

These extremists won't find the sympathy and support they once had during the 'Moral Majority' years.

The voters have moved on and are fiercely interested in economic issues.

These rightwing extremists will be culturally isolated as the nutters they are.

[MrModerate]

8. Perhaps even more damaging -- Reed's compassion-free response . . .

Likely to alienate many who consider abortion to be murder -- but who also consider *murder* to be murder!

Good Christians should be (and I expect will be) appalled.

(On edit -- that should be Randall Terry: I got the name wrong)

[XOKCowboy]

15. Reed and OR will only get stronger with this assassination.

They will portray themselves to the TradMed as abhorring this terrible tragedy while at the same time proclaiming it as a victory for the "true believers". The latter not publicly of course.

Let's be clear folks. This was not murder. It was an assassination by any recognized definition of the word.

[MrModerate]

16. I don't buy it. The true believers will perhaps get extra hardons for a day or two . . .

People at the periphery will withdraw. If Reed was going to tell two different stories to two different audiences, he blew it. He's already on record insisting that Tiller was a murderer and that vigilantism is just fine.

Not to say these trogs aren't more dangerous. Just that they've marginalized themselves, again, and this time next year there will be fewer of them and less money to spread their message.

(On edit: I got the name wrong -- I meant Randall Terry)

[XOKCowboy]

18. Remember Timothy McVeigh?

At the time we thought that the Freemen and the Aryan Nations were just fringe elements. McVeigh showed us that the True Believers will follow through on their beliefs. The True Believers will draw strength from this. You are right that the squeamish will shy away from this tragedy because they still have a bit of soul left but the Christian warriors will draw strength from their new martyr.

I hope that I'm wrong.

[AllentownJake]

19. You are 100% right

Roeder was a nobody, an absolute nobody. Today, he's being praised in the backrooms of their movement.

Expect to see a justifiable homicide defense. The assassination of Tiller was planned. They have lawyers right now working on a losing legal argument but one that will stir the fundie base.

He'll go to jail but he's going to be getting fan mail for years.

Other middle-aged men that have accomplished nothing in their lives will be taking notice.

It works in Palestine, Martyrs are heroes. That is why they don't have a shortage of people ready to strap on bombs and blow things up.

[Seldona]

20. Marginalization will likely lead to more violence.

While I agree with the don't freak out meme, I don't take that to the point that I am not concerned.

You are preaching to the choir here. The people freaking out are on the other side. They have been for decades now, and it looks like it could boil over soon. There are millions of posts on the internet right now that prove a lot of people actually support actions like this, even if many of them wouldn't undertake such actions on their own.

This was more than just some random murder. It is the very definition of terrorism. Using violence, in many cases murder, to attempt to achieve one's political ends.

It was an attack on our very society. It should be treated as such in my opinion.

[AllentownJake]

21. The very reason they are getting violent

Is they spent 30 years building a political arm and it failed. Not only did it fail, but more of the country has the view of their opponents than they did 30 years ago.

[Seldona]

22. Agreed.

I hope I am wrong in thinking a progression seems likely as more and more come to that realization. I really do.

[AllentownJake]

23. Well if for 30 years people are told that babies are being killed

and that God is angry by their leaders....

Lets just put it this way, we have our own madrasasas(spelling wrong) in America.

[bdamomma]

32. would you consider this to be a "hate crime" too.

[Seldona]

37. Not enough information at this point to make that distiction.

My instincts say yes though. I don't believe for a second this murder was committed out of anything other than hate, especially in light of his rather extensive history of posting his hate all over the internet, as well as criminal record.

I realize he is innocent until proven guilty, and that better minds than mine will make the determination in the end. This is just my opinion based on the presumption of his guilt because I was asked. It's meaningless what I think.

[man4allcats]

5. Perhaps people like Roeder could be made to be really true believers

if death penalty states (I believe Kansas is one) would execute such people when they commit murder in the name of God. I doubt many of these domestic terrorists are so committed to their principles that they're willing to sit in a death chamber for them. "Believe this, asshole, as you take your last breath compliments of the state!"

[AllentownJake]

6. Roeder is a nobody

Who just became a somebody. He was 51 and had not accomplished much in his life. That is a powerful thing, and a whole bunch of fundie nobodies just took notice.

[man4allcats]

10. May such notoriety bring him comfort as

he breathes his last. That's about as generous as I can be toward this guy and his ilk.

[AllentownJake]

11. He'll be a Matyr that is a powerful thing

If your in your 50's divorced or never married, have not accomplished much success being a Martyr is attractive.

He will get an attorney from the Fundies and letters of support from jail.

We will see more of people like him.

[man4allcats]

28. I don't doubt what you say is true, but

I wonder if he realizes he martyred George Tiller.

[depakid]

9. While I don't wish for more violence, I'm confident that America will see it

[Imagevision]

24. I thought it was 'GOD' who told George to hit Iraq?!?

[xiamiam]

25. someone here called them the 'christian taliban'..i think thats about right..nt

[WeDidIt]

29. Damned straight it's a real war

Don't be caught off guard when the nuts start shooting. They're backed up against the wall and they are insane.

[Wizard777]

31. We need to start Responding to these Republican Wars. They will continue to declare war on America

until Americans Start shooting back at them. They will not hesitate to send police into your communities to shoot at you in a war on drugs. They won't hesitate to send terrorists into a church to shoot at americans in a war on abortion. The first time a republican stands up and says they are declaring war on Litter. If Americans have the common sense to start shooting at them. Because, you know, that's what war is. That will be the last time the word "war" ever leaves a republicans mouth. If they want to play war. We need to take that war right to them. It's a fighting word not a carch pharse like Eat my Shorts. If they insist upon using it as a catch pharse. It should be followed by gun fire and bombs. Not laughter. Maybe we should just use the treason clause of the Constitution instead?

[Echo In Light]

33. Most Americans are waaaayyy too passive and docile for that type of resistance

They'd rather keep on playing make-believe despite an ever expanding police state, and take the safe, moderate approach to thinking they'll "throw the bums out via the voting booth," which is exactly what a phony, two part sham wants them to keep believing.

[Wizard777]

34. Well maybe the influx of hot latin blood will do us some good.

Senior, you said war to us. That means we shoot at you. God you just gotta love simple logic. It's the best kind.

[GeorgeGist]

35. Sanity won, but ...

naturally, nonsense won't accept it.

[Boomerang Diddle]

38. A warning that should be heeded!

I think it reached new levels starting with Sarah Palin's incendiary remarks during the campaign, and groups like the NRA, scaring the right into thinking Obama is going to take their precious guns away, and the teabaggers, stirring up all the hate from the McCain/Palin campaign, have done done nothing but to urge the rabid right to commit violence.