I personally disagree with abortion but still think it should be legal

[Kievan Rus]

From a personal point of view, I find abortion to be morally repugnant and disgusting. However, I realize that in most cases, abortion is a difficult decision that some women (or couples) have to make. Contrary to what the Rushpublicans say, nobody rushes into it happily.

I'm a guy, and if (God forbid) I ever got a girl pregnant, I would be very emphatic that she keep the child; if she doesn't want it, I'd suggest that she should adopt it to somebody who would want it instead. If I was a woman, it would be a decision that I would never, ever consider making for myself, barring rape and/or serious medical complications. Yet, I realize it is a very difficult and personal decision, and it should be left up to the individual to make it.

Instead of trying to make abortion illegal, perhaps pro-life groups, poverty groups, and religious groups should push to make social change that would make some women less willing to get an abortion in the first place. If inner-city poverty is alleviated, then maybe so many inner-city (especially blacks and Hispanics) women will choose life instead.

Thoughts?

[Bunny]

1. Well, good luck with being "emphatic".

[Call Me Wesley]

161. Hey!

:thumbsup:

[Bunny]

165. Hey back!

:hi:

[Call Me Wesley]

170. I'm also emphatic, ya know!

If I knock ya up, I'll ask ya to find some good family for da kiddo!

:rofl:

My, the things to read here ...

[Bunny]

171. You're a compassionate bastard, too!

:D :rofl:

[Call Me Wesley]

173. Uh-huh ...

I really don't let myself be insulted by women. If you insult me, I think you should look for a nice family who wants to adopt your insults, while I'm emphatic and carry on with my manly life, chopping wood somewhere or something. :rofl:

:hug:

[T Wolf]

2. I find men that want to control women's bodies repugnant. Abortion is a medical

procedure and it is up to the woman, with no interference from any other person, especially a male, to make that personal decision.

Anything less is an infringement on her rights.

[MercutioATC]

17. To some, abortion is also murder, though...

...and murder is a violation of the law.

[Maru Kitteh]

50. To some, I am the queen of Sheeba.

Doesn't make it true in the least.

[MercutioATC]

78. Their claim is a little better than yours.

I may be pro-choice, but I understand the opposing view...and they DO have a logical leg to stand on.

[musicblind]

187. Thank you. You and I are in the same boat. I'm Pro-Choice, but the Pro-lifers do have a logical leg

to stand on. Both sides have logical arguments. It really does come down to win do you feel life begins? I feel it probably begins sometime after 22 weeks, but I'm not sure when. It's a very gray issue.

But, since nobody knows when life begins, and abortions are often needed for medical reasons or because of rape or a number of factors... I'm Pro-Choice with some restrictions in the 3rd trimester

[Horse with no Name]

205. The law does NOT recognize one's interpretation as "logical"

It either IS or is NOT legal.
Abortion IS legal.
End of story. Pretzel logic matters not.

[MercutioATC]

250. It wasn't too many decades ago that I could own a black person if I so chose.

It was legal.

Just as abolitionists claimed that slavery was a heinous wrong despite its legality, "pro-lifers" claim that abortion is murder despite its legality.

Their views may be different, but their motivations are the same.

[Maru Kitteh]

249. Not at all. I FEEL like the Queen of Sheeba, just like the poster below you "feels"

all kinds of stuff, and that's precisely how you know they don't have a logical leg to stand on.... everything quickly comes around to their "feelings."

The law of Roe v. Wade rests in logic. Anti-choice piddling rests in "feelings" and religiously enforced guilt.

[Horse with no Name]

200. uh last time I looked...murder is NOT abortion--no matter how convoluted you try to make

the issue...and abortion IS legal.
Two different animals those two are.

However "to some" and "some say" that it was legal for Lorena Bobbit to cut off her husbands penis. I tend to agree.
Especially when those with penises try to interfere with my legal right to seek medical care.

[Hepburn]

258. So if they feel that way, they should not ...

... have abortions. That is their right to make that choice.

But what the hell does that have to do with the Constitutional Rights of others to choose to have an abortion?

:shrug:

[ohheckyeah]

303. To some little blue fairies

dance at night - your point is what?

If someone thinks it's murder I suggest they not do it and mind their own business about another's decision.

[Kievan Rus]

32. And since when did I want to control women's bodies?

I would SUGGEST she keep the child; it is ultimately the WOMAN'S decision.

[Maru Kitteh]

56. "I would be emphatic that she keep the child"

"emphatic"


Main Entry:
em·phat·ic

1 : uttered with or marked by emphasis <an emphatic refusal>
2 : tending to express oneself in forceful speech or to take decisive action

Translation: you would become an overbearing ass and try to coerce or manipulate her into birthing in order to comply with your patriarchal, misogynistic moral code against her true wishes.

I.E. CONTROL A WOMAN'S BODY.

[RandySF]

163. How is that control

He is not going to make her do anything.

[Maru Kitteh]

257. Oh look. another one. Get back to us when you grow a uterus and get fucked

you know, for procreational purposes.

[LostinVA]

69. "I would be very emphatic that she keep the child" -- you didn't say "suggest"

[Maru Kitteh]

84. He would bake her a cake and say "darling lover whom has committed the sin of fornication,

I know that I'm a fornicating sinner too, but I had a really good time when I committed MY sin, so it doesn't count as much. I emphatically insist that you do your Godly duty as a female and risk your life by carrying an unwanted child to term because I SAY SO."

charming no?

[Flying Dream Blues]

167. That about sums it up. Good job. nt

[KoKo]

198. or SUPPORT through College...if necessary...n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

139. I agree...nt

[RandySF]

162. I also find repugnant

Those who believe that, just because someone is male, he does not have a right to an opinion, or the right to persude a friend to think such a decision over.

[Kievan Rus]

177. And feminists claim that they don't hate men

Yeah right.

While the decision of abortion is ultimately to be made by the pregnant woman, that doesn't mean that a parent, boyfriend, friend, teacher or pastor shouldn't be allowed to have any input or make suggestions.

All men aren't out to get women.

[redqueen]

192. If, and only if, the woman *requests* such input. (nt)

[Kievan Rus]

195. Agreed

[LostinVA]

216. Feminsits don't hate men -- careful -- your agenda is showing

Feminists=Man Haters

[Kievan Rus]

222. Well everybody went nuts....

simply because I stated my opinion on abortion and I happen to be male...gasp!

[LostinVA]

230. You stated that feminsts hate men, and no one "went nuts"

We called you on your poo, that's all.

[Batgirl]

218. That's a pretty revealing comment: "Feminists claim they don't hate men."

Perhaps you're referring to those "feminazis" talk radio has been warning us about for years.

Oh, and, it's easy to sit there and say how you would handle an unwanted pregnancy. Trust me, you don't know until you've actually been there.

[redqueen]

193. They have the right *if* the woman *asks* for their opinion. (nt)

[Midlodemocrat]

208. He doesn't.

[mtnester]

310. . . .

none at all

[Left Is Write]

318. I find it repugnant that someone would assume his friend hadn't already thought it over.

[alarimer]

3. Fortunately you have no say.

That decision is the woman's alone. You cannot force someone to have a child when they do not want to. Pregnancy and childbirth are dangerous still; women still die every day, even in this country. So you would put your girlfriends life at risk if she did not want a child?

[Kievan Rus]

8. If it was a serious medical concern, I would be supportive then

I think abortion is understandable in cases of rape, severe medical issues and incest. I think it's wrong when it's used simply as birth control.

[blogslut]

18. You're not listening

Every pregnancy is a risk to the life of the mother.

[redqueen]

35. Thank you!

Seriously, I wonder how familiar some people are with how much a pregnancy can harm a woman's health.

[ohheckyeah]

304. In this country

being pregnant makes a woman high risk for being murdered by the father of the child as well.

[Blue_Roses]

36. Abortion as "birth control"?

you made it clear on that statement alone how very ignorant you are to this topic.

[Shell Beau]

59. Actually someone stated in the other abortion thread that they had

no problem with it being used as birth control. Maybe that is where he got it from.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

100. The "Abortion as birth control" argument drives me nuts too

Arguing that having an abortion is as easy as, say, popping a daily birth control pill or using a condom has always seemed rather ludicrous and demonstrates an appalling lack of knowledge about what the procedure entails and how it could never be something that somebody would be able and/or willing to use repeatedly without any serious consequences or considerations. It's the same crazy mentality that suggests that women have late-term abortions for convenience and that there are doctors out there who would perform the procedure in the absence of a therapeutic or emergency need. :sigh:
:eyes:

[LostinVA]

72. Mental and emotiona health are just as big concerns

[redqueen]

194. "when it's used simply as birth control."

Oh really? And how often is that the case, do you think?

[Mnemosyne]

274. I'm sure he 'knows' of some woman that had 6 or 8 of them. Irresponsible

welfare queens! 3 or 4 abortions a year, sluts!

Signed,

A morally repugnant woman.

[Midlodemocrat]

203. Just about the most ignorant post I've ever seen on this site.

Congrats.

And, I mean that in the nicest fucking way possible.


:eyes:

[Amaya]

220. i think it's none of your business

when you grow a uterus then we can talk...

[mtnester]

313. Did you forget to set the time machine to BC?

Sheesh....ahem your slip is absodamnlutely showing.

[SidDithers]

4. I personally find your views on abortion to be repugnant and disgusting...

but hey, that's just my opinion.

Sid

[AlCzervik]

5. try using birth control your own self instead of just depending on her.

i would never ever want to have a say in what someone else does with their own body.

[ohheckyeah]

305. Better yet he should get fixed.

;-)

[Ilsa]

6. That is called Pro-Choice. It means you support a woman having the right to choose. nt

[Kievan Rus]

12. And when did I say I was against choice?

I'm in favor of choice...but if it was my choice, I'd choose life.

[secondwind]

14. your views are not repugnant.........

[Ilsa]

16. I didn't say you were against it. I was reaffirming your position: pro-choice.

There are many pro-choice women who would never have an abortion, for one reason or another.

[Shell Beau]

70. I am one of those women! But I will never tell another woman she can't.

I took one of my friends to the clinic and sat with her as she made her choice.

[Kievan Rus]

83. Exactly

I would merely suggest a woman not have an abortion. I would never use the coercion of the government to stop a woman from getting one. It is ultimately for the woman to decide.

[T Wolf]

29. Until you have a lump of cells growing inside you, it is NOT YOUR CHOICE. nt

[movonne]

30. We all choose life...but then you have to be consistent with all life..

no wars, no death penalty, etc...and we also all have differences with when life begens...

[JenniferJuniper]

102. Isn't that special.

By the way, nearly half of my close friends and family members have had abortions over the last 35 years. And in about half of those cases, their partners - for various reasons - never knew anything about it.

So you might not get the chance to ever be "emphatic" with your girlfriends about their choices.
Wear a condom.

[Hepburn]

126. ...

...:applause:

[StrongBad]

7. It's a legal procedure. It's not murder. You have no say.

[VelmaD]

9. Considering that you will never find yourself pregnant...

my concern for your opinion on abortion can be measure in nano-give-a-shits.

This is what people don't seem to grasp...we don't fucking care. It's not your business. Posts like this may make you feel better, but they just make a lot of women see red and want to rip your arm off and beat you with it.

BTW, you have NO fucking clue what you would actually do in this situation until you're in it. You may think you know, but you don't.

[Maru Kitteh]

62. "nano-give-a-shits"

I take it. I keep it.

:rofl: :yourock: :rofl:

[Mnemosyne]

279. Go Velma!

:applause:

[secondwind]

10. I read on another link here today that 90% of abortions are performed in the first 8 weeks, for

various reasons. We can conclude that in this number are the rapes of underage girls, incest cases, husband rape, etc. It is not an easy decision to make, but most decisions are made when the "baby" is just a cluster of cells or a mere blood clot.

Less than one-half of one percent of abortions are termed "partial birth abortions", and those are for a variety of reasons, whether for the health of the mother, or due to fetal abnormality, etc. This so-called "sucking the brains out" of the skull is just pro-life talking nonsense. These fetuses have no brain, no cerebellum, just a skull full of liquid. They are not viable as babies, and they are terminated.

I have found this information very helpful for me, as a woman, to better understand exactly what is going on with abortions. I came away feeling that the majority of these abortions are made with the most anguished thinking over and over, and is not an easy choice.

[Mnemosyne]

280. Anguish and sorrow, with intense fear. Good call, secondwind. n/t

[prolesunited]

11. I guess it's great then that you're a male

and would never find yourself in a position in which you believed abortion was the right choice for you personally.

[kestrel91316]

13. And what if the girl decides abortion is the best decision for her?

"........if (God forbid) I ever got a girl pregnant, I would be very emphatic that she keep the child......"

Would you get extra super-duper "emphatic" with her to convince her the error of her ways? Or would you recognize her ultimate right to decide whether or not her uterus gets to stay occupied by the uninvited?

[Kievan Rus]

21. I would recognize...

that the ultimate decision to keep or abort the child would rest with the woman. However, I would encourage her to choose life and certainly wouldn't pressure her into getting an abortion.

I believe that women should have the ultimate decision, but I feel that they should choose life.

[AlCzervik]

24. So why aren't you choosing birth control for yourself?

Really?

[Kievan Rus]

42. That's why we need comprehensive sex ed

So people understand what birth control is, how to use it properly, and how to best avoid unwanted pregnancies and/or AIDS and other diseases.

Abstinence-only is a joke and a failure.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. You didn't answer the question.

And while we're at it, answer this: why do fundies fornicate anyway, if they're so worried about abortion? Isn't FORNICATION a big no-no? Seems to me if you're committing the sin of fornication you need to step the fuck off of worrying about your quaint notions of other people's "sins."

Tend to the log in thine own eye, and all that.

[Midlodemocrat]

201. Or maybe, just maybe

you could keep your dick in your pants.

[Enthusiast]

295. "Abstinence-only is a joke and a failure."

I'm glad you recognize this.

We could greatly reduce the number of abortions if oral contraceptives were more easily available and encouraged. And the "morning after" pill should be more readily available. I think we all can agree that this would be a reasonable direction.

[uppityperson]

133. What do you mean by the phrase "choose life"? Serious question

[Left Is Write]

301. You seem to like the phrase "choose life."

Which just sounds like a right-wing anti-choice talking point to me.

[frazzled]

15. You seem to presume ...

that only (or mainly) "inner-city" women seek abortions. You would be ... wrong.

Unwanted pregnancies affect women of all reproductive ages and backgrounds. It says something about you that you think this is a "black and Hispanic" problem.

Not to mention your "emphatic" pressure on a "GIRL" you hypothetically knock up. Knock it off.

[OneGrassRoot]

20. You read my mind.

:mad:

[OneGrassRoot]

19. I'm wondering why you specifically equate inner-city poverty...

with abortion?

There are women throughout this country -- of all colors and socioeconomic classes -- who struggle with this decision and decide it is what is best for all concerned.

We should have a more compassionate society in general, agreed, but this isn't an issue relegated to inner cities or persons of color.

[Kievan Rus]

25. Poverty does cause a lot of abortions...

because the women cannot take care of the additional children and/or they do not want to bring their children into world in which they are in poverty. If our society did more to lift people out of poverty, then perhaps these women could take care of more children.

Sadly, there are more abortions per-capita among the Latino and African-American communities; poverty and racism probably have something to do with it.

[Blue_Roses]

39. Do you have a link to back up your "statistics" ?

nt

[Kievan Rus]

44. Right here

http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=657

[Blue_Roses]

68. So is this all you have to base your so-called "facts"? A black conservative?

who was a strong supporter of Jack Kemp?


http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=1049687


"...What Jack Kemp represented, was a certain form of White manhood and honesty that is necessary to produce real socio-economic change in a country whose ‘original sin’ – the enslavement of an entire people – has not even been officially apologized for much less officially studied (H.R. 40 continues to languish in the House of Representatives, oddly now, an intention of its original sponsor – Rep. John Conyers – who continues to rationalize that the timing is not right, most recently using the campaign of a Black man for president as excuse.)

With the passing of Jack Kemp, the country has lost a skilled pragmatic politician who could win elections, but more importantly a Quarterback, Shriner, and Man, who was willing to make an investment, and even ‘lose’ on what mattered most.

May his testament inspire others to follow his example, because Black president or not, the racial divide has not been bridged in any meaningful way."
http://www.cedricmuhammad.com/jack-kemp-black-republican/

[ipaint]

326. Stats that are not based on right wing extremist rants

The conservative anti-contraception crusade has caused an increase in unwanted pregnancies and abortion among those at the bottom of the income ladder.


"The result? "Between 1994 and 2001, the rate of unintended pregnancy increased by 29 percent among U.S. women whose income was below the poverty line, while it decreased 20 percent among women with incomes at least twice the federal poverty level," a Guttmacher press release summarizes. The kicker, as reader Chris M. pointed out on Wednesday, is that the GOP campaign to strip away the country's social safety net contributes to the poverty rate, which in turn contributes to the abortion rate: "Republicans cause abortions by causing pregnancies (fighting contraception) and making those pregnancies unwanted (making it economically impossible to support children)."

It gets no better from there. If you're a poor and uninsured woman facing an unplanned pregnancy, you're also less likely to have the money for or access to speedy abortion services. And, our Guttmacher friends continue, policymakers' "punitive approach" to unplanned pregnancy -- restricting access to abortion services -- tends to result in later abortions, not fewer abortions: "With the exception of the ban on federal funding for abortion services for poor women, restrictions such as waiting periods and parental consent or notifications laws have not been found to have a significant impact on the number of abortions. What is clear is that such restrictions force women seeking abortion, especially those who are most vulnerable, to have them later in pregnancy, when they are riskier. Lower-income women take up to three weeks longer than better-off women to obtain an abortion." All of which makes the effort to demonize -- and criminalize -- late-term abortions especially classist and rationally inconsistent.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2006/05/04/contraception/



Contrast that with a country that gets it right-

People in the Netherlands consider unplanned pregnancy to be a large problem that society and decision-makers should and do seriously address. The abortion rate fluctuates between 5 to 7/1000 women of reproductive age, the lowest abortion rate in the world. Between 1965 and 1975, a shift from a largely agricultural society to an industrial society, rapid economic growth and the establishment of a welfare state, a reduced influence of the church in public and personal life, introduction of mass media, and a rapid increase in the educational level of both men and women brought about a rapid change in traditional values and family relations in the Netherlands. These changes and the introduction of modern contraception effected a breakthrough in family planning and sexual morality.
Factors facilitating the rapid transition to a contraceptive society in the Netherlands were a voluntary family planning movement, fear of overpopulation, role of general practitioners in providing family planning services, and inclusion of family planning in the national public health insurance system. Acceptance of contraception preceded liberalization of abortion. Society accepts abortion as only a last resort.
The sexual sterilization rate is higher than that in other European countries (25% vs. 0-23%). Special family planning programs in the Netherlands target groups at risk of unwanted pregnancy, particularly teenage pregnancy. Almost all secondary schools and about 50% of primary schools address sexuality and contraception. Sex education has largely been integrated in general health education programs.
The mass media address adolescent sexuality and preventive behavior. Very large scale, nonmoralistic, public education campaigns that are positive towards teenage sexual behavior appear to be successful. Teens have wide access to contraceptive services through general practitioners who maintain confidentiality and do not require a vaginal exam and through subsidized family planning clinics.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7971545

[cali]

22. you don't know what you'd do if you were a woman, so don't say you do.

[secondwind]

23. I have always felt that if we abolished abortion, it would discriminate against

the poor who cannot afford to fly off to Mexico City, Canada or Europe for a clean, safe procedure. I am old enough to remember when young women bled to death, using coat hangers or going to quack doctors, while their rich counterparts went elsewhere for a safe abortion.

Pro-Life is unfair to black, hispanic and poor women.

[Kievan Rus]

27. I'm actually pro-choice

I simply believe that a woman should choose life; however, if she decides that she needs an abortion, that IS HER CHOICE. Women should have the right to choose, and it is a very difficult decision. Abortion is, above all, a PERSONAL decision.

[Maru Kitteh]

94. It wasn't a difficult decision AT ALL for me. Not for a nano-seceond

And I feel no need at all to tell you why either, it's none of your damned business. Nobody should EVER have to "justify" a medical procedure or any of their reproductive choices to you, or anyone like you.

[prole_for_peace]

144. Nor for me.

As soon as I found out I was pregnant I started looking for a clinic that would abort. Had to drive over 70 miles away and sit in a crowded clinic for about 6 hours.

I have never regretted it and have really don't think about it except when these discussions come up.

[Mnemosyne]

282. And would she become "morally repugnant", in yours eyes, for choosing to abort?

[Starry Messenger]

26. Thankfully you have no say.

"morally repugnant and disgusting"--another blastocyte fan I see. I think I'm going to start picketing vasectomy clinics. That could be amusing.

[marshall]

28. Lots of things are arguably repugnant and disgusting

That doesn't mean they should be illegal, I agree with you.

I personally find adultery to be morally repugnant and disgusting, but I would fight tooth and nail to keep it legal.

[ceile]

31. WTF?

I'm not sure whether to call out your race baiting or gender baiting....

[Lars39]

33. So you would try to coerce a woman to carry thru on a pregnancy

that could kill her or maim her? Nice.

[Kievan Rus]

49. Suggestion, not coercion

I would SUGGEST she keep the child; the ultimate decision would rest with the woman.

[Lars39]

52. "I would be very emphatic that she keep the child"

Very telling. You're a control freak.

[Kievan Rus]

54. I wouldn't force her to keep it

I guess I'm a control freak just because I believe in a consistent life ethic.

[Maru Kitteh]

110. Forcing her to bear a child against her will would probably entail a criminal offense, genius.

You're so generous. Just what every girl should dream of. If he impregnates me, he promises not to imprison me to ensure birth or death, whatever comes first! Isn't he dreamy?

[Kievan Rus]

114. Good job putting words in my mouth

I'd prefer and suggest she keep the child...but would never FORCE her to do it. It is ultimately her choice.

[LostinVA]

75. That's not what you said, though

"I would be very emphatic that she keep the child."

[Kievan Rus]

82. I would....

strongly suggest she keep the child or adopt it. If she was unsure, I'd suggest she keep the child or adopt it. But if she'd want an abortion, there'd really be nothing I could do about it.

[LostinVA]

86. "strongly suggest" -- not really much better, you know

[Kievan Rus]

92. But it's still ultimately HER decision, not mine

[LostinVA]

96. AFTER you try to bully her into doing what you want -- trust me, I do understand you

[redqueen]

196. Well said.

Thank you.

[LostinVA]

215. Thank you!

[Midlodemocrat]

209. I think we all do. After all, he's a guy, so he knows women's medical needs better than anyone.

[AllieB]

239. Unbelievable, isn't it?

'strongly suggest' that she acts as a vessel for 9 months against her will. Spoken like someone who can't get pregnant. :eyes:

[chocolate ink]

136. Adopt?

As it is your child are you the one that will adopt it?

[LostinVA]

142. I think not

The OP seems to say they will impregnate a "girl," then bully her into keeping the baby or adopting the child. Nowhere does the OP seem to be lining up to take and care for the baby.

[Gwendolyn]

174. What he said is fine in my opinion. Many women have abortions because they are...

... with men they love, who suddenly reject them because of a pregnancy. Sadly, that's a fact, and a fair number of women would probably keep the pregnancy if they had a partner who would share his part of the responsibility. Financial consideration and the frightening prospect of going it all alone is daunting.

Thankfully we have the option of choice, so we never have to be in the position of 50s women who made the bad choice of being with men who weren't "emphatic" about doing the right thing, forced into homes for unwed mothers, ostracized from their communities along with their "bastard" children, who often had no recourse but to off themselves.

[Blue_Roses]

34. why do you think that blacks and hispanics only choose to have an abortion?

Do you realize that the number of white women having abortions is much larger than the minority population? Partly because of financial reasons. They are not federally funded procedures.

[Kievan Rus]

37. They clearly aren't the only ones

But there are (per capita) more abortions in the inner city Afro-American and Latino communities due to poverty and racism. If poverty was alleviated, then perhaps poor inner-city women would be able to support more children viably. It's called "demand reduction."

[Blue_Roses]

40. "Demand Reduction"...? WTF?

Good grief...you really ARE that ignorant, aren't you?

[Kievan Rus]

47. Many (but not all) abortions are due to economic pressure

Clearly not all of them are, but many of them are because a woman cannot take care of another child. If universal healthcare becomes a reality in this country, more children will be covered. If social services are expanded in America, more children will be covered. And women will be more able to choose life because they can support their child.

[pipi_k]

89. Not sure if you know this, but

better educated and more financially stable women often opt to have fewer children than their poorer and/or less financially fortunate sisters do.

[myrna minx]

38. Oy.

[Hepburn]

46. Oy vey....

...I feel like I stepped back into 1952 from this OP.

[myrna minx]

67. Seriously.

:hi:

[CTyankee]

129. I'm beginning to think this thread is heading for a bad end.

OP isn't gonna get out of this in very good shape.

Where to start with this one...:hi:

[myrna minx]

147. This thread may become a superfund mess.

:hi: I love this place.

[SidDithers]

154. Superfund mess!!!....

:rofl:

what a perfect descriptor for train wreck threads like these. Beautiful!!

Sid

[omega minimo]

251. Well the count is up to 250+. Do people know when its a setup and just not care?

[omega minimo]

253. Like stepping in something worse than 1952.

:puke:

[mtnester]

317. 1952 B.C.

unbelievable

[NC_Nurse]

41. When you've carried, birthed and raised a few children get back to me.

[omega minimo]

43. Good thing it's all about you

:sarcasm:



and your fight for social and economic justice for WOMEN :kick:

[Hepburn]

45. I find your OP remarkably full of 1950s male-think is my opinion.

If you got someone pregnant??? Has it ever dawned on you that YOU and the woman are BOTH responsible for birth control???

[VelmaD]

48. yup, he's a real modern thinker...

I also really loved the part about pushing "to make social change that would make some women less willing to get an abortion in the first place". Yeah, coercion through shaming, that's the answer.

But the part further down about alleviating poverty so women would be willing to take care of more children...that's the real winner. 'Cause we all know it's women's place to take care of the children.

[Kievan Rus]

51. Government supported daycare, anybody?

Women could have more children and still be able to work if there was broader social programs, such as more government support for daycare and other social programs.

[VelmaD]

55. and what in the world...

makes you think women want to have more children, particularly given that since the advent of birth control, birth rates in the US have gone down? Same in the rest of the industrialized world. Anywhere women are given a choice they tend to have fewer children. Period.

There's a reason. Children, even when wanted, take time, along with physical and emotional energy. That time and energy is taken primarily from their mothers.

Your actual agenda is starting to show through in your rhetoric.

[Kievan Rus]

60. There are accidental pregnancies

Accidental pregnancies do happen sometimes. And a few abortions are caused by women not wanting to have any more children. I believe that if women do not want another child, they should adopt it instead of aborting it...but that's just my opinion. The ultimate decision rests with the woman.

I'm being painted as a misogynist and a control freak...all because I believe in a consistent life ethic and think women SHOULD choose life. Abortion is a difficult decision that I do not agree with personally, but should be left up to individual women.

[VelmaD]

63. no...you're being painted...

as a misogynist because you decided, on the day after a prominent abortion doctor was murdered, to come on here and tell women what you think they should do with their bodies.

Here's a clue...we don't fucking care what you think.

[Kievan Rus]

66. It's still ultimately the woman's choice

And many women feel the same way. They feel abortion should remain legal, but they would never want to have an abortion themselves. That's why the position is called PRO-CHOICE...because it is a choice. All I said was that I think people should choose life...but can choose abortion if that is what they desire.

[VelmaD]

71. I'm going to say this one more time...

using small words so you're sure to get it. No one cares what you think about abortion.

Particularly today, of all days.

[Bunny]

103. VelmaD, it is good to see you back!

:thumbsup:

[VelmaD]

105. it is good to be back

I haven't had this much fun since the hogs ate my baby brother :evilgrin:

[Bunny]

109. .

:spray:

[LostinVA]

118. hahaha

[Greyhound]

107. You do not "believe in a consistent life ethic", you consider a potential

life to be superior to an existing one and feel that the state holds superior rights to the individual. That road leads to validation of such time-honored traditions as slavery, forced pregnancy/abortions, racial/sexual/religious preferences, caste systems, etc.

Get back to us when you have a uterus and a brain.

[Kievan Rus]

113. I never said I wanted to abolish legal abortion

I just think people should choose life, that's all. They are free to choose abortion if that is what suits them...that's why it's a CHOICE.

[Greyhound]

288. Your reading skill is apparently as lacking as your thought process.

You answered the statement you wish I had made, not what was actually written.

Are you still in school?

[Hepburn]

57. You forgot the MAIN reason children in single parent families live at the poverty level:

The daddies do not pay child support. Hello....???? :eyes:

[Kievan Rus]

61. And better enforcement is needed there

If a woman can't take care of a viable child that was not concieved by consentual sex, I believe she should opt for adoption...but that's only my opinion. It is the woman's ultimate choice on what to do.

[Hepburn]

65. Oh, please....

...taking care of a child goes far beyond the wallet.

GMAFB...it's a women's choice to have an abortion ~~ everyone needs to stay the hell out of that decision. PERIOD.

If any female wants an abortion it is her Constitutional right to have one. Deal with it, OK? And stop trying to sound like you are in some manner pro-female. You have the same typical macho male 'tude that I saw growing up in the 50s and 60s. Please ~~ this is 2009. Get your nose out of everyone's womb, OK?

[Kievan Rus]

76. It is ultimately a choice for a woman, not a man

Abortion is still ultimately a woman's choice, not a man's choice. I merely feel women should choose life...but a woman can choose abortion if they want to have one. A consistent life ethic preaches respect for ALL life.

[Hepburn]

95. Well, yeah, it's a woman choice...

...and your HOPES are totally irrelevant to a Constitutionally protected right.

BTW: Another clue ~~ women don't WANT to have abortions. They are a necessary choice. Get it?

:eyes:

Jesus...I feel like I have been time warped back to the 1960s with the crap that you are spewing.

[Kievan Rus]

120. It IS a WOMAN'S CHOICE

The final decision ultimately rests with the pregnant woman and the pregnant woman alone. It is often a very difficult choice for many women to make.

[Hepburn]

125. So if it is a "difficult choice...."

...why are you using the loaded language that these women WANT an abortion. Some times there is NOT even a choice involved ~~ it is a matter of life and death.

:eyes:

[bullwinkle428]

131. Yeah, I'm sure ALL of the Republicans will get on board for that one!

:eyes:

[Enthusiast]

296. You are so rare in believing this.

Most right to lifers oppose all social programs, whatever their stripe.

[ohheckyeah]

307. Good Lord YOU ARE IGNORANT.

Yeah, the woman can work all day and then go home and work all night taking care of all those children.

[LostinVA]

77. "I would be very emphatic that she keep the child" -- my personal fav

[solstice]

53. What a crock. You think it should be"legal" just that no woman should ever get one!

Unless, of course, they get pregnant the unconsenting way via rape or incest.

[Hepburn]

98. Yep....

...that's what this boils down to.

[Kievan Rus]

153. Abortion is a necessary evil

The fewer abortions there are, the better. I can't possibly fathom what's so anti-woman about that. Abortion should be safe, legal and rare.

Nobody takes pleasure in abortion. Sometimes it is required to save the life of the mother. Sometimes a fetus has fatal genetic defects. Sometimes it is used after a woman is raped. Sometimes it is due to economic pressures that prevent a mother and father from bringing a child into this world. But I hope we can all agree that abortion is something that is a very, very difficult decision for any woman to make.

If more men would be willing to stand up and be fathers...if the government was more willing to defend women's rights in the workplace with regards to maternity issues...if there was a better social safety net...then fewer women would feel the need to choose abortion.

[Maru Kitteh]

266. How many times do women have to tell you? Sometimes it's the EASIEST decision we've ever made.

Abortion usually isn't a tragedy, and it sure as hell isn't "evil." I don't think it's necessarily evil of you to try and project your religious, patriarchal bullshit morality onto women you don't even know, but I'm certain it's damned inconsiderate, at least.

[mtnester]

319. Here...you lost something

[Stellabella]

58. You do realize that the number of abortions when legal and illegal

is just about the same. But women die when abortions are illegal.

This is such a private matter that it's impossible to make illegal. That's the point. It's PRIVATE.

[Kievan Rus]

64. Abortion should remain legal

It is a very difficult decision that nobody celebrates when making it. I simply feel that all life should be respected.

[LostinVA]

79. How about the woman's emotional and mental health?

[alstephenson]

87. OK, so the woman that chooses abortion doesn't respect life?

Put the shovel down, you've dug yourself in deep enough now.

[LostinVA]

93. Yeah, I noticed that, too

[pipi_k]

104. Sometimes "respect" for life means

not bringing it into the world in the first place.


I've seen the pain in the eyes and faces of little children dumped in orphanages where they're largely ignored...sometimes tied down to their beds and cribs because there just aren't enough staff people to watch them all. I will never forget the program I saw on Russian orphanages...

Anyway, I challenge anyone to look at those children and then announce that their lives are being "respected" even as they languish and their souls die in those awful places.

No. That is not respect for life. It's forcing a living being into an existence I wouldn't wish on a dog. Most of those children would have been better off not having been born at all.

And it's not just in other countries where children live out lives of desperation.

"Respect for life"

OK.

[Kievan Rus]

111. That is part of the consistent life ethic

Is caring for life after it is born. Unlike the GOP, whom is only pro-life until you are actually born.

[Maru Kitteh]

121. Except for the broad you knock up? Right? Her life, not so much.

So why do male fundies indulge their lust and fornicate if they are so worried about the "sin" of abortion?

[Kievan Rus]

123. And since when am I a fundy?

And I was merely speaking in hypotheticals.

It's still the woman's choice.

[ChickenHawk]

137. You know you're a fundy when.....

You became a fundy when you proposed an opinion that goes against some of the others stated here. Don't take it personally, people are very pissed right now and you're making a good target. When things cool down I think most will see your opinion for what it is.....an opinion. Which we are ALL entitled to regardless of our views on subjects.

Good luck in the meantime. :)

[LostinVA]

143. Gosh, you've only posted THREE times in almost two years -- great self control

I wish I ahd it.

[ChickenHawk]

145. I'm trying to come out of the "lurker" closet.....

I've been a lurker on a few boards for quite some time and now have quite a bit more free time (Got laid off) so I'd like to contribute more than I have. We'll see how much my actions match my intentions though. lol

[ohheckyeah]

308. How the fuck would you know

what everybody thinks and feels when it comes to abortion?

[Bluebear]

73. >so many inner-city (especially blacks and Hispanics) women will choose life instead

Do you know how many suburban women, (especially Caucasians) have not "chosen life"?

[Bluebear]

80. >if (God forbid) I ever got a girl pregnant< ...Try Trojans, not Jesus

Then you won't have to be emphatic that she keep The Child.

[Kievan Rus]

88. It was merely hypothetical

Comprehensive sex-ed is something that needs to be taught in our public schools so young people know the risks.

[OwnedByFerrets]

81. Thoughts?? When you become a woman who has to make

this decision, then come back....otherwise, you have NOTHING to say.

[Kievan Rus]

85. It is ultimately the decision of the pregnant woman

[alstephenson]

90. No shit, Sherlock.

Thanks for your "permission" to choose.

[uppityperson]

134. But you will look down upon her because she didn't chose what she SHOULD have

[Fresh_Start]

91. There is nothing else like someone without empathy

pretending they understand another's life choices and pretending they have empathy.

Instead of telling all of us women how things should be, when you finish your 40-hour per week job, volunteer another (approximately 30 hours a week) to care for a group of children.... get back to us when you have a clue. BTW, you must also demand that you be paid only 60% of the rate of non-empathic males. And on a random basis you will be called to care for a sick child and lose creds with your employer.

[Kievan Rus]

99. Preferring women choose life does not make one a misogynist

This has nothing at all to do with the pay-gap or employment legislation at all. I think the pay gap is ridiculous and hope that a new Equal Rights Amendement can be passed in the Obama years.

Abortion is a very difficult choice for women to make, but it is still ultimately that...a choice. I think women, if confronted with a crisis pregnancy, should choose life...but they have the freedom to choose abortion if that is what suits them and their situation.

[Fresh_Start]

112. Apparently you missed the legal opinion

that says that its okay to penalize women financially for taking disability to have a child. Its affects their lifetime earnings. But if a guy races motorcycles in his free time and gets hurt, his disability for a purely selfish activity doesn't affect him.

The reasons given over and over for women's lower achievement and pay is that they will (or do) take time away from their careers to have children. The decisions are two sides of the same coin. Again proving just how little comprehension you have of the cost of childbearing.

[Kievan Rus]

115. I was not aware of that

It's not right to penalize women for having a child. Mandatory maternity leave is a definite necessity.

[JenniferJuniper]

116. Why is it relevant what YOU think other people "should" do?

It's legal. MYOB.

Wear a condom or abstain if you are so concerned about what happens to your sperm after you eject it.

[ohheckyeah]

309. Maybe you missed the posts

from women who said it wasn't a difficult choice. Or maybe you just choose to ignore them.

[winter999]

97. I'm actually Pro-Abortion.

I say if a woman or couple cannot demonstrate they are compitent to raise a human being, they should only be able to choose abortion or adoption. Seems ironic that you need a license to drive, but no evidence of responsibility to reproduce.

OK, maybe I'm being facetious, but food for thought.

[Swamp Rat]

321. Pass the Tabasco

:9

[anonymous171]

101. lol the Social Warriors are out in force today.

It's not good enough that abortion is legal and available. No, they want you to believe what they believe, even if you already support their proposed policies.

I am pro-choice btw.

[krabigirl]

128. Seriously.

[LostinVA]

130. I think you MAY be misunderstanding the post you're replying to

Unless I'm reading it wrong, and if so, I apologize.

[KT2000]

106. Your hypotheticals

are limited in value except that you should probably inform any woman with whom you are sexually engaged so she gets a better understanding of the person she is involved with. Being "emphatic" is a pretty good indicator of the relationship dynamic and she would be wise to run as fast as she can.

It is the woman's choice and as a man, you may desire a certain outcome but you will NEVER fully understand the woman's situation - NEVER.

[gbate]

108. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man wanting to step up to the plate and choose to be

responsible.
He never said he would force a women to bear a child.
I agree with every word.

[JenniferJuniper]

117. Let's define "empathic" one more time, shall we?

"Forceful and definite in expression or action".

And perhaps I missed it, but I don't see him saying anything about taken the baby himself or otherwise "stepping up to the plate".

[Kievan Rus]

119. The meaning of the word

"Forceful or definite in EXPRESSION," meaning I would try to persuade such hypothetical girl to not have an abortion; but it is STILL ULTIMATELY THE WOMAN'S DECISION -- I can't seem to get that through to anybody. And if I was ever in such a situation, I would prefer to raise the child if it was feasible.

A woman's right to choose is just that -- a WOMAN'S right to CHOOSE.

[JenniferJuniper]

122. "if it was feasible".....for you.....LOL

Wear a condom, or better yet, abstain and you won't have to worry your beautiful emphatic mind about your hypothetical friend's uterus. That's where your say begins and ends.

[SidDithers]

152. A woman's right to choose is just that -- a WOMAN's right to CHOOSE...

without being "persuaded" or pressured by anyone to choose one way or the other. If you're "persuading" that hypothetical girl, then you're not letting her make the CHOICE, you're simply forcing your misguided morals onto her.

Sid

[gbate]

298. I must have read the post differently.

By suggesting that she keep the baby, I assumed he would be helping. Just seems like the right thing to do and the OP's post didn't suggest otherwise, at least IMO.
I think it's a hell of a lot more responsible for a man to take responsibility for a pregnancy than to suggest an abortion.

[ohheckyeah]

312. He didn't say a damn thing about taking

any responsibility. He just said he would brow beat the woman with his opinion.

[fasttense]

124. A man has NO SAY once he has had sex with a woman.

See, he makes his Pro-Choice/Pro-Life decision when he choses to use birth control or not use birth control. After the sex, it is all up to the woman. The man is out of the biological picture and does not have a choice after he has had sex with a woman.

[mwooldri]

140. It takes two to tango.

If I could biologically carry a baby vs my wife right now, I would. However I don't think there's been a biologically-born male who has ever carried a human being yet. For a committed couple who do want a child, both parties do put in effort. I'm pregnant along with my wife now as far as I'm concerned... I just do lots of extra stuff, that's all I can do. Biologically I can do nothing; my biological role has ended. My emotional-support and other support role (financially, health-care wise, day-to-day task wise) continues all throughout.

Your point is therefore valid only in a strict biological sense. Emotionally there may well be a disconnect with one party wanting the child and the other party not wanting it. This is cause for conflict. Men must (and will) not be the final decision maker but the bottom line is that if a pregnant woman decides on an abortion and the potential father finds out before the abortion takes place, chances are he'll want to talk to the woman and make his feelings known - and many do. If he truly loves her, he'll respect whatever decision she makes and support her throughout. If he doesn't, then he's a jerk and she ought to go to the courthouse and file a restraining order against emotional abuse from him.

My personal view is that abortions should be available, but should be rare. Late term abortions should only be used in extremely special cases but still legal (e.g. baby is dead already, woman's life is in danger, baby will not live after birth even if surgery intervened). There needs to be better sex-ed in school and there needs to be free contraception for everyone. Well there needs to be health care available to everyone in the USA which is delivered free at the point of service, funded through a National Insurance scheme. This would go a long way to reducing abortions and would definitely improve the lives of women, children and even men.

[redqueen]

204. Pregnancy is a strictly biological condition.

Once men can carry babies, they can decide to take the pregnancy on and jeopardize *their* health if they disagree with a woman's choice.

As for your pesonal view about late-term abortions, you *are* aware that that's already the case, right?

[Horse with no Name]

212. Palm meet head

These fundusnuts slay me with their rhetoric, pretending that 3rd trimester abortions are the norm instead of the rare exception that they really are.
In my 20 years as a nurse, I am personally familiar with just TWO--which should be about the norm for the number of patients that I see.

[krabigirl]

127. Meh, you are male..I really don't give a crap if you think it's "repugnant."

[LeftyMom]

132. I'm going to emphatically suggest you go fuck yourself.

I like how you assume that an unwanted pregnancy is the woman's problem, or a strangers, but not yours. Nowhere do you say that if you got a woman pregnant that you'd take responsibility for the resulting baby yourself. Nope, she should keep it, strangers should adopt the baby, the only life that shouldn't be rearranged around your whims is your own.

Please have a vasectomy on the off chance some woman is stupid enough to have sex with a self-absorbed misogynist such as yourself. Thank you.

[Kievan Rus]

148. More words are being put in my mouth

At what point did I ever say I wouldn't take care of a baby if I was the biological father?

I've never been in a relationship where a woman became pregnant because of me...in fact, I've abstained from "going all the way" for that very reason.

I merely suggested IF a woman got pregnant because of my actions, I would suggest she keep the child. If a female friend of mine was pregnant and asked if she thought she should keep her child or get an abortion, I'd suggest she keep the child. But it would merely be a suggestion...the ultimate decision rests with the woman.

I may disagree with the practice of abortion, but I do support it being legally available.

[LeftyMom]

155. Nice backpedal. FWIW, if I wanted virgins to tell me what to do with my uterus, I'd be Catholic.

1. When describing what might happen should you get laid and should she get pregnant and should she not want to remain pregnant, your little list of possibilities at no point mentioned you taking the slightest bit of responsibility. In your own OP. Just thought I'd point that out to you, because it says a lot about how you and people like you think.

2. I think it's a safe bet that your only female relationship involves that slut Rosy Palm. Luckily, she's sterile, because she's sure not choosy.

3. That's not what you said. Your language implied coercion. Words mean things, and I have no doubt that you meant just what you said. So stop pretending you didn't say what you said, we're all perfectly literate and able to read the OP.

4. Do you want our thanks? A medal? A nice steak and a blowjob? Congrats, you're not quite as anti-woman as you could be. Give me a few minutes if you want that in a nice certificate suitable for framing. :eyes:

[JenniferJuniper]

172. .......

:thumbsup:

[ohheckyeah]

314. ROFLMAO.

Oh, so well said!

[mtnester]

324. I need lessons in smackdown from you

<insert Wayne and Garth "We're not worthy" here>


I would be crying like a baby after a smackdown like that...I love you :)

[mainegreen]

135. Fundamentally, yours is the correct position for someone against abortion, but for freedom.

Despite the reaction you are getting for some extremely inappropriate phrasing, the best position to take in a freedom loving country is that you have the right to oppose something, you have the right to try and talk someone out of something, but you do not have the right to *force* other people to do something, or not to do something with their bodies and beliefs, against their wills.

You are also correct in essence that if those who really opposed abortion actually cared enough, they would try and work to alleviate some of the causes they could affect that lead to abortions. Economics is one.

[ohheckyeah]

315. No he doesn't have the right to talk someone out of something

if they don't give him that right.

[newinnm]

138. Why is empathy required

[redqueen]

207. Emphatic, not empathetic.

[flvegan]

141. Who are you to try to convince the woman in her decision?

[4lbs]

146. I think those that are staunchly Anti-Abortion don't realize they can prevent half the abortions

in this country simply by helping most pregnant mothers find a way economically/fiscally to have the child.

So many abortions are by women that don't have the financial resources to carry another child to term, to even give him/her up for adoption, much less raise the child. Some of these women already have children and can't have another.

Put a financial and social help structure in place that helps pay for pre-natal care, reimburses employers for the mother's days off to see a doctor or other care, and reimburses for maternity leave. Then I feel that we'd see a huge drop in the number of abortions. Some women still wouldn't necessarily keep the child to raise, but be more willing to give them up for adoption.

Anti-Abortion groups should be working on that social aspect to do the most good for all.

Or they can continue to protest, write letters, prosetylize, intimidate expectant mothers, and shoot doctors. Because that's worked sooo well at preventing abortion the past 30+ years.

[CTyankee]

150. Do you have any studies that have shown your premise to be true?

I'd be happy to look at it. As a matter of fact, we could look at the studies the Guttmacher Institute has been doing over the years, both nationally and internationally, on reproductive issues. Guttmacher is the "gold standard" here.

[4lbs]

178. I read a PDF of a study done in 2004 that questioned about 1200 women that had abortions.

More than 50%, almost 75% in fact, cited economic impact as one of the main factors in getting an abortion.

In fact, checking now, it was that Guttmacher report.

Here's the link to the PDF I read:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf


<snip>
The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman’s education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%).
<snip>

[CTyankee]

181. Great. But the impact has reverberations on the woman's quality of life as well as economics.

I would caution against this becoming just an economic discussion. Women may not want to bear a child for the reason that they just don't want to.

[noamnety]

149. You are calling women morally repugnant and disgusting

if they wouldn't go through an unwanted pregnancy ... and you're confused about why people have "painted" you as misogynistic?

Seriously?

Is this a test run for an article for The Onion or something?

[Kievan Rus]

158. Let me get this straight....

Are you saying that if somebody is against abortion, even if their disagreement is only a personal one and they still think women should legally have that choice, does that make somebody a misogynist?

You do realize that some feminists are strictly pro-life...and probably many more that would never have one themselves but do support the right to choose.

[noamnety]

176. I'm sorry you are still confused.

Let me see if I can clear it up. You might be a misogynist if:

You feel it's appropriate to coerce a woman into using HER body against her will to satisfy YOUR desires. Is that really SO different from rape?

You feel that having an abortion is a difficult and traumatic decision for women, and if you are in a personal relationship with a woman who wants an abortion, your method of supporting her is to make it clear you find her repugnant and disgusting if she doesn't make the decision YOU want.

Your first thought on getting a woman pregnant is that she has a moral obligation to carry YOUR child to term, and nothing in that first thought reflects your desire to pay her full medical costs during the pregnancy and labor or make up her missing salary, even if it plunges YOU into debt for life ... even though you recognize that financial hardships are a common cause for abortions.

Repeated for emphasis: How is it so different from rape to coerce a woman into using her body to do something she clearly does not want to do to because it satisfies your desires?

Isn't that part of male supremacy, to feel women have an obligation to play that role for you?

[Maru Kitteh]

267. AWESOME POST! Just fantastic, and dead on!

[colinmom71]

151. Please listen to this documentary and it will even further ensure your position...

That abortion should be legal and safe...

"From the Back Alleys, to the Supreme Court, and Beyond" - http://www.albany.edu/history/FromTheBackAlleys.html

And I hope I don't annoy anyone too much but I plan to place this link in as many threads on abortion rights today as I can... If anyone wants to help and do the same, I'd be very grateful!

[Dora]

156. Backwards.

How fucked up is this?

"I'm a guy, and if (God forbid) I ever got a girl pregnant, I would be very emphatic that she keep the child; if she doesn't want it, I'd suggest that she should adopt it to somebody who would want it instead. "

So, you're willing to impregnate a woman, but you're not willing to raise your own child? Even though you'd want your sexual partner to carry the child to term, you'd rather have someone else adopt your child?

:eyes:

[Kievan Rus]

160. Taken out of context

I will not go all the way with a woman FOR THAT VERY REASON...fear of pregnancy. I would never go all the way unless I am ready to be a father...which I am not at this moment.

If I ever did get a woman pregnant, I would certainly want to raise the child. I would hope the woman would also want to raise the child as well. If she did not want to raise it, I would suggest adoption instead of abortion. It would still be her decision.

[Dora]

211. "If she didn't want to raise it..." This is getting deep.

I understand you to say that if she didn't want to raise the child, you would suggest she put the child up for adoption.

Would you be willing to parent the child yourself? BE a father?

[Kievan Rus]

214. Yes

You see, this is why I'd never have unprotected intercourse unless I had the intent of conceiving a child. But, hypothetically speaking, if I did and a child resulted, I would raise and take care of it.

[LostinVA]

221. Why can't you have protected sex?

[Kievan Rus]

223. Uh, I do and always have

It was merely a hyopthetical discussion. I would never have to confront this situation because I abstain from going all the way for that reason.

[LostinVA]

226. Well no, you don't -- you'cve said several times in this thread you've never went "all the way"

You can't have protected sex but yet not have sex... 'cause you know that a blowjob is "going all the way," right?

[Rebubula]

157. My thoughts...

...well...how about fuck off??

How does that work for you?

[RandySF]

159. Makes me think back

I remember how pious and "pro life" my parents were until I told them my girlfriend was pregnant. I told them very late and told me dad that no contraception is fool-proof. He responded by saying "you can make it fool-proof". I knew what he meant and it repulsed me. We've reconciled, but sometimes I think about that remark three years later and my blood still boils. I'm fed up with the hypocrisy and simplistic language on both sides of the debate. I'm pro-choice but abortion still troubles me. It is a sometimes necessary evil that should be safe, legal, rare and regulated like any other medical procedure. By the way, yes I am male and I make no apologies for having an opinion.

[Rebubula]

168. It is only...

...an evil if you decide it to be.

To me...it is a simple removal of a clump of cells (obviously, more debate is prudent when you enter 2nd trimester).

[Cha]

164. I'm personally glad I

never had to make that choice..and I think it should be legal.

Nobody is pro abortion but the government needs to stay out of that decision.

[rucky]

166. Could you accept her choice

even if it causes you pain?

Not passing judgement, just curious to hear your perspective.

[Kievan Rus]

175. Yes, it's ultimately her choice

[Call Me Wesley]

169. You're a guy and hope in God's will to never get anyone pregnant?

First, it's your duty to not let this happen, not God's. Condoms come to mind. Second, you have no clue at all. What you're saying is that if you knock some woman up, you'd force her to keep the child, no matter what, carry it for nine months and give birth to it just because you want it so? Then, you're so tolerant to advise adoption.

Strange, I don't see anything that says that you'd be the father and will care for the child. You leave it all to the woman *YOU* knocked up. That's great and morally justified, so you don't have to feel disgusted. Whoot, I applaud you.

And great that you're bringing the true problem (especially blacks and Hispanics) into the discussion.

Discuss? With you? Nope.

[Kievan Rus]

191. It was a figure of speech

"God forbid" was used as a figure of speech. And I've never gone all the way with any of my girlfriends for that very reason...to not have to worry about pregnancy.

[Midlodemocrat]

206. +1

[Texasgal]

179. Heya Rus...

I personally don't give two shits what you PERSONALLY disagree with.

It's my Uterus and I'm gonna make dame sure that you keep your grubby hands OFF of it! PERIOD.

[myrna minx]

180. LOL.

At least we have his *permission* to choose--I know I feel better knowing that. ;-)

[Texasgal]

182. riiight?

"Hey Rus, Can I use the charge card to go down and get my monthly abortion? Please???Please darling?"

[Bluebear]

183. unless, "God forbid", he gets you pregnant.

Then he will be EMPHATIC that you keep the baby.

[Skittles]

184. I find you repugnant and disgusting

[Texasgal]

186. Kick his ass Skittles!

[Skittles]

219. just love it when a man waxes on about abortion

fuckers

[Sequoia]

185. We had better warn off all future girlfriends away from you.

What other women's issues do you have a problem with?

No make-up or fingernail polish because it makes women look cheap?

That time of month that comes around every 28 days?

What if your dad raped your sister, how would feel then?

Seriously. When you use the term "disgusting" you're shouting out quite loudly.

Oh, and that bit about inner city black women and Hispanics? I smell the R word.

You haven't a clue. None.

[Kievan Rus]

188. There are pro-life feminists, you know; and I'm pro-choice

In fact, most of the founders of the women's movement were pro-life. Some feminists today are still pro-life. And I still think that women should have that right to choose.

I think it's tragic that the ERA failed in the 1970s/early 1980s. If a man is convicted of rape...he should be given life in prison without parole...no exceptions. The wage gap is a major problem and needs to be closed. I think women should be allowed to serve in all branches of the military. But if one is against abortion...regardless of their positions on all other women's issues...they're a misogynist, right?

And, due to poverty and racism, there are more abortions in poorer communities. Economic issues are a cause for many abortions.

[Sequoia]

213. I wonder if the stats will back that up.

Many can't even afford it.

[MrSlayer]

189. I don't agree with all your words but I agree with the basic point.

I too find abortion used as birth control to be repugnant but I also think it should be legal for those who choose that path. It's not my business what anyone else does.

[Kievan Rus]

190. Exactly

[Horse with no Name]

197. Seriously?

unless you are a woman who is experiencing a pregnancy and making decisions on what to do about YOUR pregnancy, then your thoughts on the subject really shouldn't matter.
It's none of your fucking business.

[Midlodemocrat]

199. Then don't fucking have one. It's that simple.

:eyes:

[LanternWaste]

202. It is not for me to either choose or judge...

It is not for me to either choose or judge any medical procedures another person elects to have done.

And as I certainly don't want an insurance company mucking around in my decision for a medical procedure and telling me what I should or should not have to undergo, I think I can empathize with a female telling me she doesn't want me mucking around with her own decisions and what procedures she should or should not undergo.

"I personally disagree with vasectomies, but I still think they should be legal" sounds a bit... disingenuous, yes? Or, "I personally disagree with the DNR stamped on my father's medical chart after he developed cancer, but I still think it should be legal" is a brazen show of disrespect on my part for his choice-- freely made.

And I'm sure you would agree that in the end, it is of no consequence whether we agree or disagree with any legal medical procedure taken by another person.

ed: sp

[rebecca_herman]

210. actually

I do know people who disagree with vasectomies but don't think they should be illegal. They are generally from religions that teach against permanent sterilization. *shrug* I guess because vasectomies are not an important serious issue for most people, you just don't hear about it.

I'm a pro-choice female and I don't think what this guy is saying is so out there. There are plenty of various random things out there that I personally find morally wrong, would not participate in, would prefer not to be in a relationship with someone who participated in them (is wanting to be with someone who shares your values really controlling? Or simply finding the right person for you?) but would not want made illegal. I could probably come up with at least 10 things I feel that way about.

[LanternWaste]

224. I find what he's saying a bit out there...

I find what he's saying a bit out there (and lacking in sincerity)-- if for no other reason than that he'll never be placed in the position to choose whether he'll have one or not-- he is in fact, making a negative moral judgment on a sound medical procedure he will never have to directly experience.


I should reiterate-- I am in no position to either judge or choose what sound, medical procedures anyone elects to have done.



"is wanting to be with someone who shares your values really controlling? Or simply finding the right person for you?"

I imagine that depends on both the degree and severity of the demands made, yes?-- I would find it truly, mind-bogglingly absurd to leave a person because they did not meet seven out of ten on a shared values list-- as those values (for both the other person and for myself) are in a constant state of mutation and growth. Maybe I'll come across a deal-breaker one of these days, but it most certainly has not happened yet. And if she chooses to have a DNR placed on her medical chart, I will respect that.

(I hope I'm not sounding condescending-- I usually allow myself more time to tweak my responses on deep issues-- but a new puppy's bladder knows few boundaries... :P )

[rebecca_herman]

244. I guess it depends how important something is to you

Well, I just happen to have a lot of dealbreakers. I have things that are important to me. I want to be with someone who shares those things, and not be in a constant battle over trying to make it work when we aren't on the same page. For example, I love to eat meat. I could not be with someone who was a vegetarian for moral reasons and pushy about it. I couldn't be with someone with radically different religious beliefs. I couldn't be with someone who wanted an open marriage. I couldn't be with a man who didn't want children. The list goes on, and on.... but basically, I consider finding someone with the same core values and life goals more important then being with one specific man.

But anyway, or me it's not weird to be against abortion morally but still want it 100% legal, I guess because I happen to know a lot of those people in my own life. I can understand a man being upset that his fetus was aborted against his wishes, even if he didn't want the legal ability to control that choice, because I do know wonderful, caring men who want abortion to be legal but at the same time personally consider a fetus some kind of life with value and would be upset if one that would have been their child never got to be born.

I could understand why someone who feels a fetus is a life, but is male and therefore cannot decide the outcome of a pregnancy, would prefer to be with someone who shares that view, so they won't have to live with their "child" being aborted. If I'm wishy-washy about it enough to the point I probably wouldn't have one in most circumstances, then I can understand why a man might want to try and avoid a situation where there would be an abortion.

[LanternWaste]

255. I've usually fallen in love with a person in their entirety...

I've usually fallen in love with a person in their entirety-- not by allowing my mind to assess and then evaluate. To be honest, my mind rarely has little say in how I feel when I meet a young lady. I'm a Christian, she's an atheist? No big deal. I'm a pacifist, she's graduating Marine boot camp? I can live with that. She's a Vegan, I love a good TX bar-b-que? Accommodations will be made.

I'm far too old to entertain a Wish-List for anyone I may date, as my age has tempered my demands and made allowance for who that other person is. Every relationship I've ever been in (whether it be with a loving mate, a family member, or simply with my pals) has been a constant and consistent series of compromises-- most little, some big.

Although it's merely anecdotal-- at my church, the majority of divorces have come not from a sudden, dramatic revelations of a moral code one held but has kept hidden, but rather from two people growing older, growing apart, and growing away from each other... even though they both still held to the same moral dictates they did when they'd met.

Indeed-- they'd both grown closer to the other in terms of perceiving the world at large, their shared core values and their shared life goals, yet those values and goals were simply not relevant to their love as a whole.

If she decides to have an abortion or a hysterectomy, nothing about her, or who she is as a person has changed-- the only change comes from my own perspective, and if the relationship fails due to that change in perspective, the failure is mine, and mine alone.

[PeteytehMawnstar]

217. It's a shame that you had to deal with all these angry people.

I understand what you're saying, and you have every right to have a say, tell the woman how you feel, and make your wishes known. Just as she will tell you what she's thinking, and what she wants to do regarding the pregnancy. Now I'm going to direct the rest of my comments at the angry horde for a minute.


The woman has every right to make her choice, and i sure as hell have no interest in forcing any woman to carry her pregnancy. If she don't want it, fine. If he don't want it, fine.

See what i wrote there?

In case you didn't get it, it's just as immoral to force the man to provide for a child he didn't want or wasn't ready for as it is to force a woman to have and carry a child she didn't want or wasn't ready for.

Choice works both ways.

[armyowalgreens]

227. While I'm not willing to say that it's 50/50, I understand your point.

In the end, the decision is in the hands of the woman. But I would hope that she take in to consideration the feelings of the father. How he feels counts too. That is a moral obligation, not a legal one.

[PeteytehMawnstar]

232. She definitly gets the last and final say,

but she can't force the consequences of her decision on the male, that's just as oppressive as forcing a woman to go through and keep the pregnancy.


Both parties should have the same choice and flexibility, you can't own your partner.

[LostinVA]

233. Well yes, she can -- if she has the child, he pays support

Keep it zipped if you want to take responsibility.

[armyowalgreens]

238. If you want to stumble down that road, the same could be said for her.

[LostinVA]

247. Good try -- but FAIL

[PeteytehMawnstar]

242. Nope

Take Responsibility, wow, and heaven forbid if that was ever said to a woman or young girl who found herself pregnant and didn't want it. Take responsibility and deal with it.

You'd be shitting bricks. I wouldn't use force to make a woman have a child, but you'd use force to make the man deal with it. If you can't understand the double standard then I'm sorry for you.

[LostinVA]

248. Boohoo

:eyes:

[Mnemosyne]

275. Exactly! Thank you, Lost! n/t

[Bluebear]

235. Definitly!

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

228. "it's just as immoral to force the man to provide for a child he didn't want or wasn't ready for "

:roflmao:

Go play in the shallows, little fish.

[PeteytehMawnstar]

237. not much of a response

But i guess you want it both ways. If you don't want me to force you to have a baby, don't force me to pay for one. I don't own you, you don't own me.


Like one of the commentators said a few spots above, it's none of my business.

[LostinVA]

245. Oh, that's all the response that gem deserves

[Hepburn]

263. Get a clue, OK?

It is the CHILD'S right to support. And it is a mutual obligation. Both parents pay. If you don't like that, don't have sex or get a vasectomy.

:eyes:

Sheesh...

[Mnemosyne]

276. Then take fucking responsibility BEFORE she gets pregnant. n/t

[LanternWaste]

256. If a male does not want to have to provide for a child

"It's just as immoral to force the man to provide for a child he didn't want..."

If a male does not want to have to provide for a child, then he has one, zero-risk, guaranteed way to do that-- and that's a choice, too.

[PeteytehMawnstar]

261. Logic = fail

By that logic i could say the same to her, and force her to deliver it. Obviously, we both find this repugnant, you don't hold any power over him, me, any man or woman. It sounds like a few people on this thread simply want to hold power over others. SHame since they're so passionate about a woman's right to choose, and to be free of biological coercion.

[LanternWaste]

265. But no... you cannot do that, you see

"By that logic i could say the same to her, and force her to deliver it."

But no... you cannot do that, you see-- it's against the law. My proposal is not.

But then again, I usually base any actions I take on consequences-- legal as well as moral. And if you think that that is the definition of someone holding power over men or coercing men, you may not know as much about either power or people as you think...



On edit-- I am curious though... specifically how is my previous statement illogical (or, and I find this more likely), you simply added an "or" qualifier to my own position?

[Mnemosyne]

277. Yes!

:applause:

[Maru Kitteh]

268. Get back to us when a man dies birthing a 9 pound child-support check.

Good God.


It's the attack of the fuckin' Edgar's tonight.

[flvegan]

278. Right to have a say? Damn, just shut up.

He has a "say" when she fucking asks for his opinion. And even then, it only matters if she says it does.

If a man doesn't want to provide for a child, then he should keep his fucking dick in his pants. Every time a man has sex with a woman, he'd better be prepared for the news he's going to be a father unless certain criteria are part of the situation.

[LeftyMom]

289. +1

I love that you get it. :hug:

[armyowalgreens]

225. The important fact here is that no one is pro-death.

I am pro-choice. However I am not pro-abortion. I'm not running around telling people how awesome abortion is.

The reality is that Abortion is a very challenging situation to deal with. The less people need to use it, the better. But I understand that that does not mean that abortion should be illegal. Abortion is necessary and it is the right of the woman to control her body.


You'd be hard pressed to find a pro-choicer that thinks that abortion is just like any other medical procedure. It isn't.

[Hepburn]

264. You are a guy...

...so tell us all: What is the reality of abortion?

Let's start with this question: Ever have one?

:eyes:

And, yes, an abortion is a medical procedure ~~ not unlike many others.

[Dappleganger]

229. You're out of your league on this one.

And IMO smell like a troll.

[LostinVA]

234. +1

Check out their new thread on the same thing!

[AllieB]

241. Freepville must be quiet tonight.

They're over here spewing nonsense knowing that a lot of folks are upset over domestic terrorists assassinating Dr. Tiller.

[JenniferJuniper]

236. Yes, I think Freeperville Village

might be missing a few idiots right about now.

Run along home, morans.

[ohheckyeah]

316. A number of them. n/t

[Critters2]

231. Talk is cheap. I once thought, and used to say, that I would never

counsel anyone to have an abortion. Then, a young woman with some cognitive problems, a family with plenty of problems even without a problem pregnancy, and poor skills that caused me to fear she would have problems functioning as a mother, came to my office and told me she was pregnant. Not only did I do my best to persuade her to terminate the pregnancy, I offered to drive her to Des Moines, or Sioux City or Omaha and stay with her during the procedure. I was unsuccessful, and developments cause me to think I was right.

So, never say never.

[Left Is Write]

306. Yes, I love how easy it is for someone who will NEVER be pregnant...

to say they know exactly what they would do if they ever did get pregnant.

[CTyankee]

240. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a mercy to have this thing locked. We have suffered enough

on it to merit our surcease.

Please, mods?

[Greyhound]

291. I agree.

Man, there's still nothing that brings 'em out like the old standby.

[PeteytehMawnstar]

243. In honor of this thread

I'm going to watch Seed of Chucky.


It's times like these that I'm so thankful to be gay.

[LostinVA]

246. Sure you are

[Bluebear]

252. Wow, we converted another one!

:silly:

[PeteytehMawnstar]

254. Yep

But next time i hear a young lady who's crying and upset because she doesn't know what to do about her pregnancy, i'll think of what you said, and tell her to take responsibility for her actions since she unzipped her pants.

Heaven forbid if i, a mere man, offer any council or advice on what to do.


Thankfully being gay saves me from that little bit of oppression of being forced to deal with an unexpected child.

[LostinVA]

260. You really need to work harder at this

[PeteytehMawnstar]

262. Keep telling yourself that

It will make you feel better. Im sure it's worked for you before.

[LostinVA]

293. What you just wrote makes zero sense -- I'm so surprised

[LanternWaste]

271. Or, as that scenario would be an actual event

"and tell her to take responsibility for her actions since she unzipped her pants. ..."

Or, as that scenario would be an actual event encompassing emotional distress rather than an academic exercise one may find on, oh-- I dunno, a message board, you could offer your emotional support to someone in need of a friend. But, as with all things-- it's your choice. Turn your back on her, or don't.




"Thankfully, not screwing every little young thing that throws herself at me saves me from the oppression of being forced to deal with an unexpected child..." :eyes:

[LostinVA]

294. He's now suddenly gay, btw

:eyes:

[mtnester]

320. +1

you must have seen that pig fly by the window too, I know I did

:)

[JerseygirlCT]

259. I don't agree on a couple of points -

maybe just a case of misunderstanding.

First, I don't agree that you have any standing, in your hypothetical, to be "emphatic" about a choice that is the woman's. Perhaps it's just your use of that word. You have a right to your opinion, you don't have a right to control her actions or her decision. Period.

And your wording of "make some women less willing" frightens me as well. The anti-choice zealots are pretty successfully following that tact with abortion providers - many more are less willing every time their violence is perpetrated.

I do agree that making abortions less necessary is the goal. If some women are provided with the financial means, they might very well choose to carry to term. And of course, there's the point in time before that decision even needs to be made - easily available, easy to use contraception ought to be the rule and the whole abstinence-only mindset needs to go. Women, young and old, need information and dependable contraception.

I think it might also be easier for you to suggest carrying to term and then adoption as an easy alternative. Personally, my pregnancies were pretty easy - no medical complications really, and I usually felt pretty good. But there's no way around it - your life is radically changed - forever - regardless of whether you raise or adopt out the child. It's a huge investment in time and a giving over of your own body to another for that time. It's also not without some serious risks - more so than the risks of an abortion.

I think there is plenty of common ground to be found if the goal is not making abortion less legal, or less available, but making it less necessary. Pressuring women to be "less willing" is another thing altogether, IMO.

[MadMaddie]

269. Inner city poverty does not just impact blacks and hispanics

It impacts many poor whites too.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_teens.html

No health insurance - no birth control.

No real sex education in schools and communities and abstinance only- Higher unwanted pregancies.

<snip>
• The primary reasons why U.S. teenagers have the highest rates of pregnancy, childbearing and abortion among developed countries is less overall contraceptive use and less use of the pill or other long-acting reversible hormonal methods, which have the highest use-effectiveness rates.
<snip>

No real sex education STD levels in the US in young adults gone through the roof.

<snip>
• U.S. teenagers have higher STD rates than teenagers in other developed countries—for example, England, Canada, France and Sweden—because they have more sexual partners and probably lower levels of condom use.
<snip>


If we are to have a discussion a real discussion about preventing pregnancies we can then reduce the number of abortions.

Ultimately, if every man and woman have free will - free to live where they want, (I would say love who they want but apparantly the courts have to make that decision, men can choose what they want to do their bodies is there business, just as women should choose what is best for their health and their life. It is not someone elses decision.

[ellie]

270. Then you shouldn't have one

if you disagree with it.

[EFerrari]

272. Who else besides women, blacks and "hispanics" do you have unsoliticited advice for?

[Mnemosyne]

283. I'm betting on fat people and the mentally ill coming soon.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

299. And a stance on marriage equality

[Mnemosyne]

300. Yep, definitely one of their major pet delusions.

:hi:

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

273. Choose Life?

Choosing life does NOT mean never having an abortion.

A woman may choose the lives of her already born children, rather than divide herself even further to bring another child in.

A woman may choose HER OWN LIFE, and her reasons are her own.

Every time you say "choose life", what you are really saying is that any woman who chooses an abortion is choosing death. That's just not so.

And most abortions, yes MOST abortions are performed by nature. (or God, if you're so inclined).

[Left Is Write]

311. Thank you.

This poster's repeated use of the phrase "choose life" is very revealing about his true agenda, in my opinion.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

281. I don't think the OP should be subject to the kind of criticism I'm seeing

All the OP is saying is that they personally oppose abortion but that they think it should be up to a woman's choice and not made illegal. Abortion is not murder, as murder is a legal term of art and abortion isn't illegal, and this person recognizes that. I think the fact that they find it morally reprehensible but nonetheless support it as a right is all the more enlightened. I wish more Americans with religious objections to abortion would take this approach. It's pretty ridiculous that some posters want to force their own personal sense of morality on others and want everyone to think the way they do. This person is not trying to force the way they think and feel down the throats of other people. This poster doesn't want to force anything on anyone, it appears, but only has a personal feeling towards abortion. If this person were female, they would make their own choice to keep a baby and would support the choice of any female, one way or the other. As long as someone is in favor of freedom of choice, I'm fine with it.

[EFerrari]

285. I really don't care what people with religious objections think about abortion.

They can keep their objections and I will keep my autonomy. It's not negotiable.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

286. But the way I read the OP's position

he's in favor of preserving your autonomy, unlike the religious totalitarians. I think he's on the side of the freedom to choose.

[EFerrari]

290. What should that mean to me?

I didn't ask for his support and I don't need his approval. Am I supposed to applaud him for giving his stamp of approval to women's health? As if the concept was such a difficult one?

Are women supposed to be grateful that the health care they need is up for debate?

I'm a teacher and in most cases, I would applaud the OP. But not this time and not this topic. Our healthcare is our right and it's not negotiable. That's it.

That people come to understand that is their success over their challenge. It doesn't change the bottom line.

[noamnety]

297. Why on earth should he be above criticism?

He opened by declaring about a third of the women in America to be "morally repugnant and disgusting" - including many women on DU ... and your concern is that HE got some harsh criticism??

Maybe you need to rethink that.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

322. I prefer to judge and criticize individuals not based on their thoughts but on their acts

I'm never going to get everyone to think the way I do or to have the same values. But if a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party saves Jews when the chips are down and risks his/her own life in doing so, I consider that person's actions to be righteous. If an individual who has moral and religious grounds for personally opposing abortion in their own life, but nonetheless through their actions respects and supports a woman's right to choose, I call that person enlightened. If the OP is a good Democrat, supports and votes for candidates who support a woman's free rights, supports judges who will preserve Roe v. Wade, and is opposed to any legal attempts to curtail those rights, then I consider that person an ally, not an enemy, no matter how they personally view abortion. If an individual thinks differently than I do, but actively supports my free right to think and act differently in my own personal life, then I have no problem with it.

[noamnety]

323. Hmmm. How would you feel

if the OP said they personally find being homosexual morally repugnant and disgusting, but they don't think it should be illegal? Would you consider them to be an "ally" of gays?

I sure the hell wouldn't. I would recognize that they were - not so subtly - speaking with a forked tongue, doing what they could to further stigmatize gays and promote homophobia and bigotry.

[caseymoz]

284. Make a social change so women don't seek abortions. People have suggested that to them.

The option has always been there. They ignore it. No, alleviating poverty isn't melodramatic enough for them. They have to be God's warriors, either by being in-your-face pacifists who will give out a Doctor's whereabouts and show ugly pictures with Bible quotes around them so that some non-pacifist can find him and kill him.

That's how the game works.

[TerryRay]

287. I have to admit

I am shocked by some on here who tell the guy to "keep it in his pants" and make it seem( and maybe I am wrong) that it is 100% up to the man to wear a condom to make sure the woman does not get pregnant. IMO that seems archaic. What about the woman DEMANDING the man be prepared to use a condom or BOTH coming to that decision together?

In any sexual relationship I have had in my life it was always discussed as to what both sides wanted and expected.

as far as abortion..I am 100% for it being legal and will always support it being legal. That does not mean if I was in a relationship with a woman and she got pregant I would be jumping for her to get an abortion( would it not be just as wrong if the guy tried to pressure a woman into getting an abortion as pressuing her not to get one?)

It would all depend on again where we were in our relationship and our lives. I would hope the woman respects us as a couple and me as a person enough to discuss the options at hand and we BOTH play a part in making the decision, whatever it may be.

But it still IMO as far as the sex part a two way 50/50 deal..BOTH know the ramifications of sex, and especially what the ramifications of unprotected sex can be and I think BOTH are responsible for what becomes of that.

[LostinVA]

292. If a man doesn't want to ahve a child, they should use protection or keep it in his pants

And, as you well know, people were reacting to teh OP and his comments, not "all men." The same OP who stated Feminists are man haters and who decalred he would bully any "girl" he got preggerers into keeping the baby.

[ohheckyeah]

302. You're not a woman so you really

don't know what you would do. I notice in your God forbid scenario that nowhere do you suggest taking personal responsibility for the child you helped to create.

When you get a uterus get back to us.

[Solly Mack]

325. I personally disagree with a medical procedure but I think it should be legal.

Insert medical procedure of your choice.

Damn people getting medical procedures! Who do they think they are?!?!?!

[seabeyond]

327. i dont understand why rape always gets a free pass. why is it repugnant to abort except rape?

why is it ok to abort for rape but not for any of the other various reason. cause of emotional damage? well, i will tell you guy, being preg at a young age there are all kinds of possible or exsisting emotional damage going on. rape is not the only way.

it is a baby, seperate of the person that raped. nothing to do with the intent of the rapist. why... if it is repugnant to abort a fetus, is the rape created fetus "evil" enough to abort without conscious.

it has never made sense to me. i do not understand the logic of this at all

i hear people willing to kill other human beings over this issue, they feel so strongly about aborting a fetus, .... yet.... it is ok to abort a rape fetus.