Another side: I'm pro-choice and I refused to abort a healthy baby.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

Some men pressure women to get abortions, because they don't want the expense and want to control the woman.

I'm pro-choice. My ex-husband wanted me to abort a healthy baby. This was in 1985.

He said that I "trapped him into marriage".

Strangely enough, we were married for over six months before I got pregnant. He didn't want the expense, although he had health insurance and a good job, and we had a house. He was just selfish. All he saw was dollar signs. He kept saying that "we agreed to not have a child yet". We had no such discussion. He was delusional. I knew that in his case, it would NEVER be the right time. And he said that I couldn't handle motherhood, because he's an expert (WRONG) and knew that I was not "mature enough" to have a child. He is NOT an M.D. He is a college dropout. I was thirty years old and had just finished law school.

Expected me to throw away a baby. Just couldn't understand why I insisted on going to the Medical Center in Houston -- thought I was supposed to drop a baby in a field and get up and walk like some peasant. I had to have a C-section or I and the baby would have died (My wheelbase was too narrow). I think he was hoping we would both die so he would not have the expenses of feeding us.

I'm pro-choice and I said "HELL NO. If you don't like it, you can leave".

Four years after we married, we separated. I had a physical collapse from emotional abuse, exhaustion and nagging. I went to the hospital with bacterial pneumonia caused by non-pathogenic bacteria. I was in and out of the hospital countless time with pneumonia for about five years.

Then he got custody of the kid and made me, the mother, pay child support for 15 years. He had the good job for decades, not me.

I never once said an unkind word to this impossible-to-please bastard. I finally said, "I'm not going to try to please you because you won't like anything I do anyway. I'll do what I damn well please".

As my father said, "He threw away a beautiful house, a beautiful wife and a beautiful daughter. Some people don't understand nice".

My parents had set up a trust fund for my daughter's college education. The narcissistic ex hubby went after them in my divorce, attempting to get my father's law license yanked. Their lawyer warned him that if he attacked my parents, they would have to liquidate this trust fund to pay their legal expenses, and he was jeopardizing her college education.

That is exactly what happened. They liquidated it and he had to pay for college, years later.

:wtf:

There are lots of sociopaths and narcissists out there. Nothing is ever good enough for them.

It's all about narcissism and control. The world revolves around him.

Now our daughter is grown and beautiful and bright. And my world would be much sadder without the experience of motherhood.

[Lex]

1. I support the choice of the woman, whether to have the baby or have an abortion.

That's really as simple as it is.

I support your choice. I support choices that were other than yours too.

[skooooo]

2. Glad you had a choice.

Obviously, you made the right one for yourself. Life can't get better than that.

[WI_DEM]

3. exactly what pro-choice means, it was your choice to have the baby.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

6. I think lots of people don't realize that men pressure women to get abortions.

If they don't want to support the kid. Or if they are crude and don't mind going to jail, they just beat her up.

Not all men want women to have babies. It depends on the situation. Either way, it's about the men controlling the woman's reproduction.

[mamaleah]

9. There are some terrible men and women that do

And it is often overlooked. Pro-choice means just what it says. Choice. Not, "he doesn't want to be a daddy, so I should have an abortion". It also does not mean, "my mother/sister/best friends think I should have an abortion because if I have a baby I will be poor/unattractive so I guess I will have one.".

Pressuring a woman to have or not have an abortion is foul.

I agree with the poster down thread who asked why you never smacked him with a tire iron.

[Lex]

14. which is why we have to keep abortions safe & legal, otherwise

if she cannot stick to her guns about having the baby due to being bullied or abused, he'll just take her to a back-alley abortionist and she could DIE

Abortions happen even when they are against the law, they are just done crudely and without any standards, so women die under horrible circumstances.

People who say they are pro-life are anything but.

[VelmaD]

4. I support your choices...

though for me, I would have chose to hit your ex upside the head with a tire iron.

VelmaD = not a nice person :evilgrin:

Seriously, good on you for doing what was right for you and not backing down.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

10. Hey, I was not big enough to do anything.

:evilgrin: But......

[SidDithers]

17. Key words "right for you"...

that's what choice is all about.

As PP puts it: "From choice, a world of possibilities."

Sid

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. That's not really another side, that is exactly what pro-choice means.

It means the decision to have a baby comes down to the woman who is carrying the fetus and no one else.

[skooooo]

7. Good point...

Not sure what the point of this post actually is...

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. it helps define 'choice' for those deluded persons who seem to

think choice = abortion.

Choice = choice - and it is the WOMAN'S choice, nobody else's.

[JHB]

56. I'm taking it as "sharing her perspective"

Real life is messy and often doesn't fit the neat mental pidgeonholes we all-to-easily stuff things into to make sense of the world.

[NC_Nurse]

8. That's why it was your choice. It was right for you. Another person might have

chosen an abortion in order to rid that asshole from their lives forever. A completely understandable choice as well.

Women need the right to choose for themselves, that's the whole point.

[cali]

11. this really doesn't sound like it's about abortion or choice so much

as it is about a failed relationship.

[MNDemNY]

12. You seem to have resented paying child support.

If I read your resentment correctly, Why? Why did you not pay for half of the college expense? He sounds like an ass, but you seem a little "off center " as well. I'm glad your daughter is doing fine.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. Thank you for telling me I'm off center.

I could not find a decent job after my career fell apart due to the market changing, in 1994. I have three degrees, including a law degree, Juris Doctor, and could not find a job in the legal field. I worked in the legal profession my whole working life. I had a few temp jobs and shitty retail jobs.

He has had a job at the same place since 1981 with insurance and benefits and steadily increasing pay. I never had insurance or benefits. In 1991 he bought a house down the street from me (literally two blocks away) for about$250,000.

I also spent thousands in court-ordered private school tuition (several hundred dollars a month, year round) until she moved to a public high school in the 8th grade. Her school tuition was thousands of dollars.

And I didn't pay for college because I didn't make enough money or have a steady job. I finally gave up and retired, because nobody wants to hire a person with three college degrees and work experience that is over 40. We expect to get more than minimum wage.

Also the fact that he very nearly nagged me to death preventing me from working much for several years after we separated. He thought that I BRIBED my doctor to put me in the hospital, and that I FAKED IT. He was "embarrassed" that I was using his insurance and running up hospital bills.

It's hard to fake near-fatal bacterial pneumonia. My lungs were inflamed, bright red and completely full of pus. I was dying from the poison in my lungs and drowning.

The doctor ran me into surgery, washed my lungs out FOUR times in FIVE years, saving my life four times.

I DID resent paying child support, due to my financial situation relative to his. He destroyed the trust fund my parents set up for the child and he was duly warned.

People are shocked when I tell them that he punished me for having the child by getting custody and making me child support. That's too bad.

[MNDemNY]

60. With respect to the child support issues...

If the genders where reversed, would you not have pursued support? You can't rant about your rights as a woman and mother AND not willingly support your child. Any support for the child is separate from any "relationship" problems. Off-center, indeed. Men who espouse such resentment of child support payments are labeled "deadbeats" Goose-Gander????



Edited to add: I am and always have been a firm supporter of a womans RIGHT to choice.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

61. did you not read about my employment problems?

Three college degrees including a Juris Doctor. Over 40 and overqualified.

Now they are firing licensed attorneys, not just legal assistants.

If the legal profession appreciated me, I would be training trial attorneys. But they don't.

Assholes.

[MNDemNY]

62. If you need to pay child support, work at McDonalds.

or where ever, but you work, and you pay.2 jobs, 3jobs, whatever it takes. Maybe you were not ready to have a child. ???

[Hekate]

63. "Rant"?-- "Rant"?!? Christ on a trailer hitch, do you see what you want to see or what?

Woman has unexpected pregnancy but wants the baby and keeps it. Mother wants to raise her child but loses custody. Mother has lower income and pays child support to *hole who didn't want child but takes it away from her.

What is wrong with this picture?

Hekate

[MNDemNY]

64. "took it away" ?????

Have you any Idea how hard it would have been for the father to get custody 20 some odd years ago??? Read between the lines, there is/was a whole lot more going on here. Christ on a hitch, fer-sure.

[11 Bravo]

13. I'm glad you're OK (and I hope your ex-husband stumbles into a wood-chipper.)

[JuniperLea]

15. I was fired from my job for not getting an abortion in 1978...

I support your choice, and mine.

I want women to always have a choice.

And if someone is pregnant, and that pregnancy is deemed to be a risk to the life of the mother, I hope she has the choice to save herself.

I hope we see an increase in education, because that is the only way we can eliminate the use of abortion as birth control.

[mamaleah]

34. Really? Did you have any legal standing to sue?

I do recognize that this was at a time when a woman's marital status was still considered as part of whether or not to hire her, but that just takes the cake.

[JuniperLea]

38. Nope...

But I fought very hard and became part of a group of women whose stories were used to create laws against such things.

It was pretty disgusting to have my boss tell me he'd make sure I got to and from the clinic safely.

I was a model employee. They even eliminated one job there because I could easily handle mine and the other one at the same time. I was never late, never missed work... until I got pregnant and had severe morning sickness. I lost 25 lbs in the first month I was so sick. I went to work sick too, so I didn't really miss that much time. But that is was was used as justification for firing me. I couldn't even collect unemployment.

Abortion was not the right choice for me, but it is clearly the ONLY choice for many women. I will always support choice.

[bluestateguy]

16. I had an old college hallmate who called himself "pro-abortion"

His words, not mine. He thought abortion was a good positive thing becuase it meant fewer poor children being born and ending up on welfare that his taxes would have to pay for. He was no liberal. No, he was one of these anti-tax, anti-welfare extremists and a sort of social Darwinist.

He once said that if he ever got a girl pregnant before he was ready to have kids, he would "order" her to get an abortion.

He was a conservative Republican, BTW.

[Lex]

20. A good reason why the choice should belong to the woman.

nt

[Rebubula]

22. meh...

...In my younger, more radical days - I always said (due to overpopulation) that the only hope for humanity was homosexuality and abortion.

Some days, I still feel the same about abortion (will NEVER not support a woman's right to choose)..every day the same about homosexuality.

[SidDithers]

18. The decision - the choice - should be yours and yours alone...

pressure from others, in either direction, is the evil part of abortion.

Sid

[slackmaster]

19. You chose wisely

Congratulations on your success.

[and-justice-for-all]

21. Why would you abort a healthy child??

Any one that pressures some one else to do that is a prick..There are enough reasons to abort, that is not one of them..specially since the child is healthy.

[Buzz Clik]

30. You would agree, however, that the use of abortion as extreme birth control exists.

I dislike it, too.

[and-justice-for-all]

32. I'm Pro-Choice because I am realistic...nt

[kestrel91316]

23. Isn't it wonderful that YOU got to make that decision? That he couldn't

force you to have an abortion against your wishes, and also that couldn't keep you from it if that's what you deemed best?

I don't understand why some people have a problem with the concept of self-determination.

[pitohui]

24. well it's your body your choice and i'm glad it worked out for you but...

i don't think it's a rational choice to have a sociopath's child, and if the father-to-be made it clear that he resented the child, i would not have the child

just doesn't make sense

you are very, very lucky that your daughter didn't inherit through genes or example the same mental sickness "enjoyed" by the father

part of making good choices is choosing a good father IMHO

it sounds like you had every warning that your husband was immature and disturbed, and you chose to ignore that -- you rolled the dice and for you and your daughter it worked out, but some people win the lottery too

we all have the right to make foolish choices but when it involves the rest of your life and the rest of your child's life, i dunno...you almost destroyed your entire family, since the sociopath also chose to attack YOUR father's livelihood

as a woman i have the final say, but to tell a guy he has to shut up and not try to argue his side of it seems most unwise to me...if he's that deadset against the baby, he's going to be a very destructive presence in the child's life and my life (and in your case, even his ex in laws life), i just don't see it

there are too many decent men out there who actually want a child, plus even a sperm bank would be better than this, the sperm bank is not going to try to steal your child just to get the monthly support check from you, which sounds like is what your ex did

are you really arguing that it's a sane and sensible choice to have an abuser's baby? if a guy feels so strongly that he would beat you to stop you carrying his baby, get away from him, get his seed out of your body, and have nothing more to do with him -- that to me is the sane choice

sure the crazy choice is your right as an adult but it seems a shitty thing to do to a baby

if by "pressuring" you to have an abortion, all he did was yell at you, for fuck's sake -- you're not an adult if you can't stand up to the "pressure" of an argument

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. nobody told me to stand up for myself when I was young.

I thought I had to put up with verbal abuse, because my parents put me down too.

I learned this the hard way. I would have rather had a good relationship with a man, but I suffered terribly because I wanted the child so badly.

Turns out my daughter criticizes me just like her father does. I feel like I've gone through a second divorce. I have no contact with her now.

Maybe someday she'll grow up.

[heliarc]

25. While I respect what you've said and support your stance...

why you (or he) need to refer to a woman in poverty in some feudal situation as "some peasant" is a little hard for me to understand and turns my stomach. It was a little much and I take issue with it.

Being a lawyer doesn't give you any right to belittle the people who till our fields and nurture our food.

That said, Thank you for presenting your story. I'm sorry for you that things got so bad and very grateful to hear that your child grew up strong and intact.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

41. "Peasant women delivering naturally" is a stereotype.

I'm saying that that is what HE believed -- he did not understand that childbirth and pregnancy are dangerous. He couldn't stand anything about women -- he thought women were "strange".

Women all over the world need proper prenatal care and good obstetrics so they won't die in childbirth or have complications.

[heliarc]

46. That was not clear in your post...

and it came off just as caustic as he does. So thank you for the correction. My best to you and your daughter.

[JDPriestly]

26. Congratulations on your beautiful daughter!

Most women do choose birth, not abortion. I personally am delighted that I have two children. But I'm pro-choice because I believe that if a woman does choose abortion, the procedure should be legal and as safe as possible.

At the same time, we need to do a lot more as a society to make the choice of birth possible for more women. I don't know how we can do that, but choice to have a baby should not just be for those who can afford to raise their child. It should be a meaningful choice for all women.

[spin]

27. My daughter is pro-choice...

and was on birth control when she got pregnant with her first child. She had recently broke up with the father.

I was sitting in the living room when she told me the results of the drug store pregnancy test. So we discussed the situation. I told her, "I can't make the decision for you, but I will support your choice."

Well she married the father and had the child. A year later, despite the fact that she was using birth control, she was pregnant once more. Again, she decided to have the child although money was tight. She had her tubes tied after the second child.

Several years later, the first marriage ended in divorce. She found the right guy and lived together for years before marrying him. They have one of the best marriages I've ever seen.

I actually liked the first husband but my daughter and him just weren't compatible. My daughter and he are friends and he has supported his children responsibly. He was however, one hell of a potent man.

While she is very glad that she decided to have her two boys rather than chose abortion, she still values the right of a woman to make that choice.

[Buzz Clik]

29. A lot of pro-choice people agree with you 100%. So do some pro-life people.

In fact, a lot of pro-life people quietly agree with you. Many pro-lifers don't see abortion as murder; they simply want the choice for abortion to be rare and based on crucial decisions.

We in the Democratic Party like to think that the GOP is 100% anti-choice, and that simply is not the case. My mother, for example, is a die-hard conservative, consistent Republican in her voting, yet pro-choice. She had an abortion when she was very young because she contracted measles during the early stages of the pregnancy.

Great post. :thumbsup:

[Sheltiemama]

33. How on earth did he get custody?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

36. I was sick a lot during the divorce.

My lawyer said to let him deal with the hassle of getting her up and getting her to school.

I'm convinced that he pushed me by nagging me until I separated from him and filed for divorce, thus making ME look ilke the bad guy.

He had put a deposit down on an apartment before we separated, so he was planning it.

During his deposition he had "NO IDEA" how that check magically got written and signed and cashed.

Lying bastard.

[Forkboy]

37. Your ex sounds like a true buffoon.

I've never gotten a woman pregnant, so it's hard for me to say how'd I'd feel or which way I'd want her to go if it happened (and it won't). I think I'd say my side, and hopefully we could have a good, mature discussion about it. But that's it. If she doesn't agree with me, then oh well for me. It's 100% her call, and I'd support it either way. I certainly wouldn't walk away because I felt "trapped" if she had a child, and I certainly wouldn't be upset if she didn't.

It seems simple to me. If a woman I got pregnant had an abortion, it would my responsibility to support her 100%. If she has the child, it's my responsibility to do everything I can to take care of that child, and that applies regardless of whether the relationship continues or not.

Personally, I'm 41 and I've barely managed to get my own life right. It seems wildly irresponsible to get a woman pregnant in the first place, and even worse to whine about her decision afterwards.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

39. I didn't know what a good relationship looked like then.

He didn't give me any emotional support. The only answer is a divorce when one person is serious about their commitment - I was, and the other person refuses to be supporting and kind.

Right wingers don't understand that a marriage certificate will NOT make the other person like you or be nice to you. Some people get married so they can criticize the other person constantly.

[Forkboy]

40. "Some people get married so they can criticize the other person constantly."

I've noticed that a lot as people I know have gotten married over the years.

Sorry you went through what you did.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

42. Thanks.

There are male gold diggers as well as female golddiggers out there. It's an equal opportunity profession.

I think young people need some kind of education in what constitutes a good relationship, and why you need not put up with somebody who does not respect you. I certainly needed that. I did not have good relationship role models - my parents sniped at each other constantly and would not see a counselor, because it was shameful.

[pnwmom]

43. Glad your daughter came through this all right.

There's a good book that you might want to consider getting for her sometime. It's called "Children of the Self Absorbed" and it's for adult children of people like your ex. I found it to be enlightening.

[jazzjunkysue]

44. The issue is whether it's legal and safe and affordable, not right or wrong.

The rich will never have to face an unwanted pregnancy. Only the poor women will.

This is a class issue, not a moral one.

I'm sick and tired of everyone missing the damned point.

It's not a moral issue. Period.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RainDog]

47. your ex sounds like a dick, and not in a good way

I hope you don't have to have much of anything to do with him because he sounds like poison.

I have an ex sort of like that - not quite as bad as what you've said, but bad enough to have his lawyers try to get me to sign a form agreeing not to sue him for emotional abuse.

I didn't sign but I didn't sue.

but I still deal with problems from dealing with him.

[MzShellG]

48. I know what you mean....

I felt the same way you did and my daughters father was just like yours. I made the same decision as you. Im just glad I was stuck with him. Pretty sure I wouldve experienced the same emotional abuse you unfortunately did if we had stayed together.

[KoKo]

49. Yes...and you had a CHOICE...the CHOICE is what's important.

Conceptions of rape, or those born to mothers who know they can't provide care because they are too young or impoverished with other mouths to feed, need CHOICE, too.

We need to stop applauding or condemning very personal, private issues that women face in their CHOICES in their souls..about bringing life into this world that we all know is very "test tube" these days and if those who can pay thousands for manipulated births then those who for whatever circumstance know they can't provide for, nurture or be a mother they might hope to be for their unborn should have the same right to choose as those who can afford to adopt, or manipulate the conception and birth of their babies.

Don't you think?

[Thickasabrick]

50. OH MY GOD. We are sisters! I didn't marry the father because he

was pissed I wouldn't get an abortion. My baby will be 24 this year. 1985!!! He turned into Goth boy and moved to Canada - and I wouldn't change a thing...except maybe the aqua hair he is sporting right now. He never knew his dad and I never went after the father for child support because it was "his choice" not to participate.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

54. I didn't know this guy hated kids.

[Thickasabrick]

55. Glad things turned out for you and your daughter!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

57. She turned out to be selfish too.

But I did the best I can.

[Thickasabrick]

58. Mine is totally self-centered but I think it might be a generational

thing and I'm hoping he will grow out of it when he's like 30. Here's hoping they both grow out of that!!

[Reterr]

51. Not sure I see how this has much to do with the legality of choice

as another poster observed upthread, it seems to be more about a failed relationship.

Sorry you had such a lousy relationship. This probably doesn't apply to you, but imo one issue related to having kids that is completely separate from the choice issue,is that both parents should discuss whether they want a kid or not to make sure they are on the same page. This is in the kid's best interest.
No man has the right to force a woman to have an abortion or not, but expressing an opinion on the matter is an entirely different thing. If I were a man, I would be one that doesn't want a kid. In that scenario I would be upfront with anyone I dated or married about not wanting kids and expect them to be straight with me. Not everyone wants to have kids and that is fine. What would not be fair is to consider a man who always said he didn't want kids an asshole for not becoming enthusiastic about it once his partner becomes pregnant. Obviously, it is the woman's choice about what to do, but I can't blame one half of a couple for not having the warm fuzzies about an unexpected baby, if they were always upfront with their partner about their views on having kids. Of course once the kid is born you would have to be a prick to not take up your responsibility to this child.

I knew this girl that ended up marrying her long time bf after college and she (like me) always said she never wanted kids. Her bf didn't want kids and thought they were on the same page. Then they got married and a year or so later she felt like she wanted kids now. Not sure what got into her since she seemed perfectly sincere all the years all of us would talk about how we didn't want kids. Well..her husband still felt the same and though they still loved each other, he suggested they break up if she really wanted a biological child. Since, he wanted to adopt and not have a kid. She did something I consider really shitty and went ahead and told him she was on birth control and got pregnant "accidentally". He is a nice guy and so they are raising the child together now and of course he is a great dad (and he doesn't even know how that "accident" took place-she told me like I should think it was a cute little trick she played).
I feel bad for the guy in instances like this where his choice was taken away at an earlier stage. What she did was dishonest and wrong. A desire for a cuddly little baby or whatever should not mean you have so little respect for your partner that you lie to then about something this important just to get your way.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

52. He was uncommunicative anyway.

He only criticized me.
We didn't have these discussions about important things before we got married. I didn't know enough to question him about those things. I thought he loved me and wanted what was best for me. He didn't.

I posted my story to show that it is not always the woman who wants an abortion and a man who wants to force her to have the baby. There are varying circumstances.

OK, so I was stupid, and married a guy who did not love me, and I did not know any better than to do that. Nobody told me to stand up for myself and not put up with highly critical guys. I dated lots of guys who bitched about everything and everybody -- he was only the worst one. My mother and grandmother were narcissists, too, and I never was good enough for them. I am a law abiding citizen and got a good education. I have a lot of different skills and interests. I try to not hurt other people.

So sue me. :wtf:

[Reterr]

53. I wasn't attacking you

I really wasn't. Apologies if it sounded that way

I was sharing another anecdote that is similar to yours but I knew..well know both parties involved very well and it is similar to yours except in that case I think it was the woman who behaved atrociously.

In my personal opinion I don't think either story (unless there is more to yours) has much to do with choice except indirectly, since forced pregnancy or abortion don't come into it. I take it back if your ex was seriously pressuring you to get an abortion rather than merely stating his opinion,
albeit obnoxiously (that was how I read your post).

[armyowalgreens]

59. My father owes over 30,000 dollars in back child support.

Apparently he hasn't been paying for years and my mom simply didn't have the money to take him to court.

In that time he refurbished a jaguar and purchased multiple suits costing over 10,000 dollars a piece.

Some men are assholes and only care about themselves. I never want to be like my father.