Breaking: Kansas charges Roeder with First Degree Murder, Won't Seek Death Penalty

[WeDidIt]

Won't charge with terrorism.

This is ABSURD, IMO.

[Stellabella]

1. What's the matter with Kansas?

That sure is their motto.

[Junkdrawer]

2. Does he look Arab to you? Of course he's not a terrorist...

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Justitia]

4. The AR shooting gets a terrorism charge, this one doesn't - what BULLSHIT.

Oh wait, that guy was a Muslim.

This guy is a white, middle-aged Christian fundie.

For the record, I think they BOTH should be charged w/terroristic acts.

[WeDidIt]

5. Agreed. n/t

[magellan]

8. The double standard is plain.

Christian fundies can kill anyone they like and not be charged with terrorism, even though they like to kill OB/GYNs who offer abortion services and those killings have terrorized many OB/GYNs into not offering abortion services anymore.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. agree 100%

However, Muslims, especially "foreign looking" ones, are treated differently than white "Christians" (in quotations because this alleged murderer did not act in a Christian manner). But I'm wondering--could he be brought up on federal charges?

[Justitia]

19. God, I hope so. However, the AR charges were state, why not here?

The AR shooter got 15 counts of terrorism (rightly so).
The feds said they are still looking at possible federal charges.

However,

Not a SINGLE ONE in this case.

:nuke:

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Because the feds can still charge him if the state charges don't stick

[Justitia]

21. I will keep hoping..... -eom

[RDANGELO]

6. No death penalty.

More proof that this country is not capable of fairly administering the death penalty. If a black man had shot the Governor, he would get the death penalty. What's the difference.

[Justitia]

7. They said there were no special circumstances for the DP - what about "lying in wait"?

I'm not saying I'd want the DP anyway, making this guy a martyr to all his buddies, but how can there NOT be special circumstances?

They may want to avoid the DP for the martyrdom reasons, but where is the "terroristic acts" charge that the AR shooter got today?

This asshole is a way more sustained case of terrorism (although they BOTH should be charged w/terroristic acts).

[NightWatcher]

11. anti dealth penalty all the time, even when I dont like the guy. That's Fair and Equal

why cant people get that through their narrow little heads

[hack89]

56. Kansas does not support the death penalty

while it is on the books, they have not executed anyone since 1965. This is a good thing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I don't even expect a fair trial, so there

shocked? Not at all

[moondust]

12. A jury of sympathetic Kansas fundies?

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. It only takes one

[WeDidIt]

22. Yeah, but what if it's seven fundies

and the other five simply give up and acquit so they can go home?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. You only need one to throw the jury

and I expect to see that, and will be pleasantly surprised if something else happens

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Oh come on

Several hundred people showed up at a vigil for Dr Tiller on Sunday evening in Wichita. Not everyone in Kansas is a fundie. Maybe someone who was at the vigil will be on that jury.

[WeDidIt]

35. One fundy on the jury is all it takes. n/t

[moondust]

36. In fairness,

one or more fundies could end up on a jury almost anywhere. But I tend to think the odds of that happening are greater in a place like Kansas or Oklahoma or Texas.

[jillan]

10. Roeder is a terrorist and should be treated in the same manner other terrorists are treated.

Gitmo?

[hayu_lol]

15. Roeder is indeed a terrorist...

this event was a premeditated assassination in cahoots with:

Operation Rescue
Army Of God
Free Republic
That crazy Baptist minister in Buena Park(Orange Co. CA)who is hootin' hollerin' and just generally dancing in his pulpit.

Charging him with Terrorism, probably a Federal Crime, and the Feds should take jurisdiction.

[ThomWV]

29. Water board him until he confesses to knowledge of links between Saddam and Satan

[janx]

13. Actually...

It might be interesting to give him access to a computer in jail, put him online, and see what he does. They might be able to get some information out of him.

[mitchum]

14. Well then, he's just a HALF-ASSED martyr to his crazyass cause

[Hepburn]

16. This was premeditated murder and he ambushed Dr. Tiller...

...this most certainly meets the special circumstances for a death penalty case. To not charge this is a fucking insult.

JMHO

[hack89]

31. I don't think it does

Kansas-
(1)The murder was especially heinous, atrocious, cruel, or depraved (or involved torture)
(2) The defendant knowingly created a grave risk of death for one or more persons in addition to the victim of the offense
(3) The murder was committed for pecuniary gain or pursuant to an agreement that the defendant would receive something of value
(4) The defendant caused or directed another to commit murder, or the defendant procured the commission of the offense by payment, promise of payment, or anything of pecuniary value
(5) The murder was committed to avoid or prevent arrest, to effect an escape, or to conceal the commission of a crime
(6) The defendant has been convicted of, or committed, a prior murder, a felony involving violence, or other serious felony
(7) The murder was committed by a person who is incarcerated, has escaped, is on probation, is in jail, or is under a sentence of imprisonment
(8)The murder was committed against a witness in a criminal or civil proceeding to prevent the witness from appearing

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/aggravating-factors-capital-punishment-state

[Lyric]

41. He was convicted of a prior violent felony, wasn't he?

[hack89]

43. His conviction was overturned on appeal due to police misconduct. nt

[KittyWampus]

49. Yeah, those darned police searched his car after pulling him over no license plate, no license

and no insurance.

[ShortnFiery]

45. He committed the murder in a CHURCH, in front of Tiller's Wife, Children, Grandchildren and friends.

OMG! If that doesn't constitute "heinous" then I don't know what does. :grr:

[hack89]

46. People get killed in front of loved ones all the time

Heinous suggests something extraordinarily evil and depraved. Now if you want to argue that all murder is heinous and every murderer should get the needle, you won't get an argument from me. I just think that Kansas prosecutors had their hands tied by their death penalty statute.

[Hepburn]

47. Thanks for the statute....

...IMO: (2) clearly applies ~~ shooting into a church lobby on Sunday at the time of a worship service; (6) also applies ~~ he has a prior serious felony conviction in 1996 for the possession of bomb making materials.

JMHO

[hack89]

50. His felony conviction was overturned on appeal

and without any details, I don't know just how endangered anyone actually was.

[Hepburn]

51. Shooting into a crowded church ~~

you thank that may not be dangerous???

Just how is that NOT a dangerous act?

[hack89]

57. Moot point - the people of Kansas don't support the death penalty

they haven't executed anyone in 44 years.

[AllieB]

60. I think you stumbled on to the wrong website.

1000+ posts and siding with a terrorist. :eyes:

[hack89]

58. Dupe - deleted. nt

[frazzled]

23. Thank heavens for no death penalty

The cycle of killing must stop.

Roeder thought he had the right to murder because he felt Doctor Tiller was a murderer. Roeder was a murderer, but we (the state) have no right to murder him in return.

I'm sorry, but I am, and have been for many decades, an ardent opponent of the death penalty under any circumstances.

[WeDidIt]

26. I'm not

and I'm outraged they won't seek the Death Penalty. It's a fucking double standard.

It's also making me question my support of the Death Penalty.

IF Roeder doesn't deserve the death penalty, then I don't think anybody does.

[Mythbuster]

59. For some there is no appropriate punishment

and I think that applies to Roeder. While I'm opposed to the death penalty, idiots like him make me question how the best way to deal with them is. Execute him and he becomes a martyr for the anti-choice movement and I surely don't want them to have any more satisfaction than he's already given them. I say life in prison served in the general population might be best for this "Bubba". I doubt he'd take up basketball or other prison yard activities, so maybe he could be of some service to others that will spend the rest of their lives with him... maybe they have just the job for him.

[Lyric]

24. I'm against the death penalty, so that's fine. However, there should have been terrorism charges.

The lack of such charges is VERY fucking telling.

If I were a Kansan, I'd be howling in the streets right now.

Edit: Can't the federal government bring up terrorism charges independently of the state?

[SeattleGirl]

33. Agreed. I am against the death penalty too, but think he should be

charged with domestic terrorism.

[hack89]

38. Here is the Kansas statute for Terrorism

21-3449. Terrorism. (a) Terrorism is the commission of, the attempt to commit or the conspiracy to commit any felony with the intent to intimidate or coerce the civilian population, influence government policy by intimidation or coercion or to affect the operation of any unit of government.

I suspect that until evidence appears that he was part of an organized conspiracy, Kansas won't press terrorism charges because an individual murder doesn't fit the statute.

[Winterblues]

27. I am glad there is no Death Penalty being contemplated.

He needs to stay in prison the rest of his life and take prison justice..I am opposed to the Death Penalty in any and all cases..no exceptions because I am indeed Pro-Life..Pro-Family..and Pro-Choice.

[musette_sf]

28. random nutter vs. terrorist, in pictures:

random nutter with radical religious cult affiliation who acted alone:


terrorist with radical religious cult affiliation who was aided and abetted by a network of co-conspirators:


geez louise, what would the right wing do if it were a Muslim who had murdered Dr. Tiller? i think they wouldn't know whether to shit or go blind.

[hack89]

30. It doesn't meet Kansas' special circumstances for capital punisment

Kansas-
(1)The murder was especially heinous, atrocious, cruel, or depraved (or involved torture)
(2) The defendant knowingly created a grave risk of death for one or more persons in addition to the victim of the offense
(3) The murder was committed for pecuniary gain or pursuant to an agreement that the defendant would receive something of value
(4) The defendant caused or directed another to commit murder, or the defendant procured the commission of the offense by payment, promise of payment, or anything of pecuniary value
(5) The murder was committed to avoid or prevent arrest, to effect an escape, or to conceal the commission of a crime
(6) The defendant has been convicted of, or committed, a prior murder, a felony involving violence, or other serious felony
(7) The murder was committed by a person who is incarcerated, has escaped, is on probation, is in jail, or is under a sentence of imprisonment
(8)The murder was committed against a witness in a criminal or civil proceeding to prevent the witness from appearing

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/aggravating-factors-capital-punishment-state

[Shrek]

37. That info is out of date

The current statute (21-3439) lists the circumstances as:

• During a kidnapping for ransom


• During a killing committed under a contract or agreement


• The killing of any person by someone confined in a state correctional institution, community correction institution or jail or while in official custody


• A killing during the commission of, or attempt to commit, a rape or aggravated sodomy of any person


• The killing of a law enforcement officer


• The killing of more than one person as part of the same act or in two or more acts connected together


• The killing of a child under age 14 during a kidnapping or aggravated kidnapping with the intent to commit a sex offense upon the child

[hack89]

39. Thanks. nt

[WeDidIt]

44. So the second bullet point will be applied

if it is demonstrated he conspired with others.

The DA has not said anything about Roeder acting alone.

They also left open the possibility they could seek the DP in the future.

[hack89]

54. Kansas has not executed anyone in 44 years

I don't think he will get the DP.

[winyanstaz]

32. There doesnt appear to be justice in America anymore :(

[Pavulon]

34. Feds can put him to sleep..

they are currently doing so for the guy who shot the student body president at unc last year. Orange county would not euthanize him so the feds will.

[Shrek]

40. The Kansas terrorism statue doesn't really apply (yet)

21-3449. Terrorism. (a) Terrorism is the commission of, the attempt to commit or the conspiracy to commit any felony with the intent to intimidate or coerce the civilian population, influence government policy by intimidation or coercion or to affect the operation of any unit of government.

They may not yet have evidence to show intent to intimidate or coerce. The DA could always amend the charges later if such evidence is forthcoming.

[reflection]

48. How on earth

Would this case not be appropriate for a first-degree murder charge? I am at a complete loss for words.

[hack89]

53. It is a first-degree murder charge

Kansas doesn't like to execute people - it has been 44 years since the last one.

[reflection]

62. Derrr. Of course.

Sorry, DUing on a BB can make me look like a bigger idiot than I am. Tiny screen, clumsy cut/paste function. Thanks for the correction. :hi:

[hack89]

65. No apology needed - grace is certainly not my middle name! nt

[hack89]

52. Kansas is surprisingly progressive on the death penalty - last execution was in 1965. nt

[pipoman]

63. No surprise

Kansas is far more progressive on many issues than given credit for by those who have only seen the state on a map.

[armyowalgreens]

55. I'm anti-death penalty and pro-rehabilitation whenever possible.

However, I doubt this guy is ever going to be rehabilitated. Keep in prison for the rest of his life.

[Retired AF Dem]

61. But But But But

arent we against the death penalty?

[RagAss]

64. Forget the death penalty....this guy's gonna walk !