Looking for connections between RW churches and and antichoice violence.

[Deep13]

Specifically, I'm trying to refute the few-bad-apples claim.

I noted on FB that I had donated $ to Planned Parenthood as a protest against the constant incitement to violence from America's pulpits. (I did dot say how many pulpits are involved.) Someone responded saying most don't do that. It's an evasion of course because I did not say they did. Still if most churches including the two biggest equate abortion with premeditated murder and the most conservative ones rail about the annual holocaust of the murder of the innocents, then it is an incitement to violence even if the priests (pastors, vicars, whatever) don't actually say "Go and do violence."

So I'm wondering if anyone can point to some research on this.

[newinnm]

1. What difference will it make?

You will never convince anyone of something they dont want to believe.


-nnnm

[Deep13]

3. Two reasons.

The first is the guy is not a radical anti-abortion activist himself and is probably just unaware of the problem. He lives in New England where abortion is available and does not go to church.

Second is that others will see the post.

[imdjh]

2. won't wash

The courts have already ruled that promoting a related idea is not actionable in the fulfillment of a related action. And you are probably glad is isn't. A best example would be the environmental or PETA websites which refer to various people or groups of people as "murderers" or more extremely folks who should be "put down and see how they like it".

[Deep13]

4. Not looking for a legal argument.

I'm looking for cause and effect. Where or not the speeches of RW peachers are protected speech is not the issue. The real question is, do they promote violence? But for these preachers, would there be murders and death threats against women's health professionals? Would there be constant harassment of patients at the few places some states have that do abortions? But for the inflamatory and largely dishonest "fighting words" of these preachers, would threats have closed abortion clinics or prevented them from opening?

[imdjh]

5. Yeah, sorry, I realized that after posting but didn't want to delete.

I didn't want to delete because I still think it's relevant. Yes, I agree with you that demonization can promote violence. But as much as I would like to be able to prove cause and effect between what some of the preachers say and what other people do, for me it gets back to the legal argument.

As for the few bad apples thing, I think it really is a few bad apples. My personal experience is that people who oppose abortion, especially women who oppose abortion, want to work to stop it, but can't really right that with the exceptions they want to make. The absolutists, who oppose abortion for any reason are usually men and are actually quite rare.

I myself don't like abortion. I really would rather not think about it. I can justify it. I can rationalize it. But push or shove, many of the anti-abortion arguments ring true either because they are true, or because in the breach of knowledge the error on the side of caution would be in agreement with them. The reason that I stay out of that particular argument is because I am not a woman. I also realize that that is a cop-out, because the list of things I am not precluding me from taking a position would limit me to discussions of my health and the weather.

[Deep13]

6. I feel like I can't stay out of it because the opposition has no such scruples.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

[deaniac21]

7. here is one

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2009-06-01-army-recruiter-killed_N.htm

[omega minimo]

8. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5767293

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x319824

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=385&topic_id=319424

[Deep13]

9. thanks!

I only watched a little of Rachael last night, so thanks for the links.

[omega minimo]

10. It's not hard to find

[Igel]

11. It's a tough call.

I've known some churches that were strictly anti-abortion, and termed abortion (even in the first trimester) to be murder. Health exceptions? If you could save your wife by killing your teenage son, would you? No difference, they'd say, between that and killing your 8-month-old fetus to save your wife.

They were also pacifist. Their members went to jail during WWII rather than fit Hitler, to jail in the early '50s rather than even serve as medics in the US Army. They also strongly encouraged members not to vote, as well. The reasoning was that this isn't God's kingdom or government, and we don't belong in it; moreover, we're incapable of forming part of a government that metes out punishment because that's condemning, and we're not to condemn people (but judging actions is a different matter since there's no penalty to be imposed).

So, does that strike you as encouraging members to commit violence? As encouraging members to be pacifist? Would it matter if the sermons preaching "abortion is violence" were separated in time from the "we don't enforce God's law"? If the two ideas were merged into one sermon? If the emphasis shifted back and forth over the course of the years?

You gotta take it all-or-nothing if you're looking at an organization, even if a given attendee might miss one of the sermon threads or simply overlook it.

[Greyhound]

12. Search Cerridwen's Journal. You will have to go back a few years,

but she has several very well documented pieces on how the whole "movement" was started and continues to be funded by religious wackos.

[NMMNG]

13. Here you go

Tiller Murder: Pat Robertson, You Helped This Happen

Faith-Based Killing: Come Here, Righties — We Need to Talk


Be sure to read to the bottom of each for extra links.