Just had a very heated debate with a pro life friend

[cherish44]

We have a mutual friend whose 20 year old daughter has schitzophrenia. The daugther moved into her own apartment and is on disability. Apparently this girl has a few boyfriends. Basically a bunch of guys come around to have sex with her because well, she's willing to have sex with anyone. My friend's daughter ended up getting pregnant. After a lot of careful consideration, my friend took her daughter to get an abortion, there was no way this girl could have taken care of a baby and it was becoming painfully clear this girl could not take care of herself and should be placed in residental care (something that was a very painful thing to face) My pro life friend said she can't believe anyone would "murder their own grandchild". I pointed out that the girl was taken advantage of at least, raped at worst (she says she consented but it could be argued she doesn't have the mental capacity to do so)...

Pro life friend: "Well there are thousands of people who would love to adopt that baby"

Me: "A baby whose mother has SCHITZOPHERNIA? People who adopt want perfect babies, this baby clearly would have a genetic liability".

Pro life friend: "Then Grandma should take the baby, it's her fault her daughter got pregnant because she obviouly shouldn't have been living on her own." (Granted a BIG reason why this girl was on her own was because her stepfather basically said he couldn't deal with her anymore but again this girl was an adult and said she wanted to move out).

Anyway my pro life friend bascially told me that she is breaking off her friendship with the girl's mother and me too if I condone murder...(my response: Get over your self-righteous self. I don't see you adopting unwanted babies or doing a damn thing other than bitch about how of your precious money goes towards caring for these kids once they are born)

Bottom line, abortion is hardly ever an easy, uncomplicated situation.

[Stellabella]

1. Sounds like not much of a 'friend'.

I don't want anybody who is that rigid, nosy, self-righteous, and judgmental in my life.

[ShortnFiery]

2. It should be respected as a PRIVATE family (and close friend) decision - if inclined, with minister.

Neither the government nor the public should control women's bodies with regard to reproductive health choices.

[MrScorpio]

3. "Put up, or shut up."

You are full of the win!

[SidDithers]

4. Cut 'em loose...

life's too short :hi:

Sid

[xchrom]

5. that's how these conversations go --

and they are awful.

sorry you had to experience such stupidity laced with hateful judgement.

[SeattleGirl]

6. Great response by you!

:applause:

[james at 49]

7. I am not happy about abortions, but I would never call it murder

Murder implies malice and that is simply not the case for women who are faced with unwanted pregnancy. This friend of yours seems very narrow in her views and I don't think it would be much of a loss if she wasn't in your life. Chances are, she is like this in other areas, as well.

One thing I would ask you to consider, though, is the idea that schizoid women who get pregnant should automatically get abortions because of the risk to their future children. I recoiled in disgust once when a man I knew (whose wife was pregnant) mentioned how they were gonna have an Ultrasound and that if the baby had Down's, he wanted an abortion. I realize that disabled kids are more difficult to raise, usually, but if someone only wants a "perfect" child, then my feeling is that they shouldn't have kids in the first place. (BTW, this dickweed ended up having a kid with CP.)

[Kerrytravelers]

12. Hallmark doesn't make a Have a Wonderful Abortion card. No one is "happy" about abortions.

However, it is a private medical decision that is between the woman, her doctors and those she chooses to confide in. If someone doesn't tell me, then I don't presume to know their business.

I agree with your first sentence. Murder implies malice and that is simply not the case for women. Well said.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerrytravelers]

19. You can take exception all you want. However, in the case of choice, the woman gets the final word.

The man's final word is when he participated in the sexual act. But it is the woman who actually has her body placed in the position of carrying the zygote to fetus to eventual baby. Therefore, she gets the final word. I know, this really makes the chauvinists mad as it give the woman the power in the situation, but that is just how it goes. Women have the final say over their bodies, not men.

If a man wants to be in on the decision, then he should be someone the woman has confidence in. I would tell Mr kt instantly, and I would solicit his thoughts and feelings. However, Mr. kt has always told me that the final decision would be, of course, mine, as it is my body. I feel I can confide in him and personally, because of this, I value his opinion as much as mine.

If you think there is a rather casual attitude about abortion, then that is something that you have projected upon your interpretation of an OP or post. We are simply straightforward and direct. Abortion is a personal matter and none of anyone's business. We're not backing down from that. That is not casual, it is just simply and direct.

[cherish44]

20. Believe me, I don't like abortion at all

I dealt with infertility for years and tried to adopt. (And to be honest I'm not someone who could adopt a special needs kid (at least I'm honest about it)....God bless those people who can and do, they are angels!) Actually the availability of healthy adoptable babies is very scarce. I would personally love it if more women would choose to have their babies and have them be adopted by someone who desperately wants to be a parent. But my view is it's up to the woman to choose and I have no right to tell anyone what they should do or even offer my unsolicited opinion on the matter.

My friend made a very difficult decision. She agonized over it, she DID blame herself for not looking out for her daughter. She belongs to a rather conservative church and when they find out (which they most certainly will thanks to our mutual judgmental and pissed off ex-friend), she's going to I'm sure catch hell for it. I don't necessarily agree that the baby would have been born with schitzophernia or any other disability. I just really do feel the baby would be hard to place in an adoptive home. Her daughter is on so many medications, is diabetic (she weighs almost 300 pounds) so obviously there are some physical risks to her as well. I did suggest to my friend that she get her daughter into a residental care program. She hasn't been "legally" declared incompetant so my friend can only do so much and the daughter is reluctant to move into a "dummy" home (as she called it).

[Sal Minella]

26. Since the baby-daddy-to-be apparently didn't have sense or concern enough

to be "in on" deciding to open a condom before he went "in on" anything else, I'd say the opinions of the pregnant (incapacitated) girl and her mother are the only ones that matter.

Why should such an irresponsible male have any say at all in what this girl's course of action is? Totally absurd idea.

I have a very low opinion of men who impregnate girls who can't protect themselves, for whatever reason. See The Brothers Karamazov.

[Yupster]

118. If the man did use a condom

He still wouldn't have any say. What differnce does that make?

[Sal Minella]

124. I am implying that if he had chosen to use a condom (properly), and had a bit of luck,

there would be no abortion/birth decision to be made, because the chances are there would be no fetus to be considered.

I did not mean to imply that a man trying to avoid becoming a father while having sex deserves any say-so in an accidental pregnancy, if his condom tears or leaks or whatever.

He has no say-so unless he's willing to carry the pregnancy, give birth to the baby, and take care of it for 16-18 years. Then he can have some say-so. Otherwise it's none of his business. Zero.

[Yupster]

129. Usually not zero

usually about $ 400 per month.

It's one of the few legal cases where a person legally has no say in the decision over whether an event happens, yet the person is held legally responsible for it for 18 years. It's a very odd legal doctrine where one person has 100 % of the authority to make a decision, yet another person is financially responsible for that decision.

Doesn't seem legally supportable, yet it is.

[Sal Minella]

131. If the man did the right thing and used a condom, then the woman

should do the right thing and be using BC also or be willing to terminate the pregnancy, since his use of contraception shows clearly he had no interest in parenting a child with her.

I am a little baffled by women who are "too moral" to get an abortion but not moral enough to avoid conceiving a child they don't want.

And it is bewildering that a woman can refuse to abort an accidental zygote and hit a guy for $400 a month zygote support.

Obviously we still need birth control that is fail-safe, so either person of a couple can successfully prevent a pregnancy one of them doesn't want.

As for "having no say over whether an event happens" -- there's always Father Emil's annual lecture to the young people of Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility in Lake Wobegon about pre-marital pregnancy --

"If you didn't want to go to Minneapolis, then why did you get on the train?"

[noamnety]

30. I think you've confused a man's "rights"

with "things some men wish they had."

No, being consulted on a woman's medical decisions just because you had a one night stand with her - or even a full blown relationship with her - is not a RIGHT. Sorry.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. I disagree

The father has every right to participate in the decision. It is his child.

[noamnety]

57. Fortunately, you are wrong

about what is or isn't a "right." The law now recognizes that women have sovereignty over their bodies; men do not have authority to control women's bodies.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. I am not talking about a legal right

I think a man has a right to decide what to do about a baby he fathered. Call it a moral right.

[defendandprotect]

81. He still has to have earned that right in the relationship; in which case,

when these men are trusted, they seem to be told and perhaps even

listened to.

Keep in mind that many times males will push for an abortion.

[noamnety]

103. He can never "earn that right"

because it's not a right. He can be in a strong enough relationship that a woman chooses to consult with him and value his opinion. That's something for her to give, never something for him to take.

(I think we basically agree, but the semantics of calling it a "right" are problematic.)

[defendandprotect]

111. You're perfectly correct . . . I mistated what I was thinking . . .

there is no "right" --

there is only, perhaps, a working relationship with any loved one which

may or may not provide for being told and consulted.

The decision is ONLY the female's -- it is her choice and her choice of telling

anyone else or not.



:)

[noamnety]

100. The woman's right to decide what to do about a baby she mothered

trumps any father's desires, since it's her body. She is not obligated to spend the better part of a year producing babies for him.

If he wants a baby that badly, he can adopt.

[MiniMe]

58. If you read the original post, they aren't even sure who the father is

The girl had multiple partners.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. If I was her mother, I would have made sure she could not get pregnant

It's just a sad story all around.

[TheFarseer]

86. Thank you.

That's pretty much my answer to this problem.

[kiranon]

132. And, how would you do that? I adopted the 2nd of 3 children a very

disturbed mom had despite the grandmother (her mom) doing everything possible to stop her daughter from getting pregnant. Adults have rights and no mom can stop her adult daughter from getting pregnant if the adult daughter wants to get pregnant or does not know how to prevent pregnancy or believes it is God's will or from being raped. She stopped having children only because the doctor after the 3rd delivery did a hysterectomy on her before she could object. Might I add all of her children have a serious genetic disorder that has no cure.

[defendandprotect]

78. When he's carrying the fetus in his body, he will have the right to decide . . .!!!

Until then, it's the female's decision . . .

[Hepburn]

109. Why?

It's not his body. The only time he had any right to any decision was prior to the sexual intercourse that created the unwanted pregnancy. After that? It's not his body...PERIOD. He does not have ownership rights over a woman just because he knocked her up.

JMHO

[JerseygirlCT]

115. Nope. Not until he's carrying that child in his uterus.

Then, yes.

Otherwise, his choice was made when he decided to have sex.

[Yupster]

119. Legally the father has no right

other than to send checks once a month if the woman decides to have the baby.

The law needs a man's right to choose, but at this time there is none.

I don't believe anyone, male or female should be forced to take on the responsibilities of parenthood without their consent.

[eShirl]

31. a CASUAL attitude toward abortion?!

-response preemptively self-censored-

[uppityperson]

64. Thank you mods for TSing this one. I am finding it good to check before replying. eom

[musette_sf]

130. + 1

me too, i alerted on him the other day

[pnwmom]

96. Deciding not to have a Down's syndrome child goes way beyond want having

a "perfect child."

Down's syndrome children are often born with heart defects and can have other costly medical problems. Not all families have health insurance, much less good insurance.

Not all people live in areas where there are services available for Down's syndrome children or their families, or can afford the services that are available.

Families with other children have to balance the needs of a disabled child with those of their other children.

The next time you hear something like this, before you recoil in disgust, you might want to consider using your empathy instead.

[Solomon]

107. Well said.

[Control-Z]

120. Thank you for saying that.

I could not find the words. Well, at least not the appropriate ones.

[Kerrytravelers]

8. My conservative fundy mother-in-law has a friend of her same ilk.

This friend apparently adopted two sisters. One had emotional problems and the woman RETURNED THE CHILD BACK TO THE AGENCY, but kept the sister.

I was astonished when my mother-in-law told this story with the same emotional gravity as making a grocery list. Needless to say, Mr kt and I made out "family values" comment.

These people are so cruel and so ignorant.

[thereismore]

9. Alan Alda's mother had schizophrenia. nt

[sohndrsmith]

18. - my dad was gay. Good thing he was my actual dad because he may have had trouble adopting me. n/t

[pnwmom]

47. Me, too, sohndrsmith.

Was he out when you were growing up or did that happen later? Mine didn't come out till I was an adult.

[sohndrsmith]

116. he never really came out... but I knew when I was around 8 or so.

It was known, but it wasn't discussed openly, which was confusing and painful - especially when he died, because we never had an opportunity to bring friends and family together to honor his life - because many of them never knew... My brother was the executor and wouldn't allow any type of service. Still ticks me off.

My dad was a magical person. I miss him. I wish he was still here because I have so many questions - still.

[kestrel91316]

36. My own mother is schizophrenic. If somebody ELSE wants to have

an abortion because of risk of genetic disease of ANY kind that's their own personal business.

If my mom had had an abortion and I wasn't born to her, who is to say my soul wouldn't have been born as somebody else, for pete's sake? Or maybe I would never have been born at all, and if I never existed then I would not know the difference.

I don't want the government or somebody's church or some irresponsible male or rapist making ANY woman's reproductive decisions.

[defendandprotect]

89. Until well into the late 1970's, the NY Times was stil reporting that

schizophrenia/mental illness WAS NOT heriditary!

But, I have to say that all of these genetic/DNA links disturb me to some degree
because I fear soon they'll have a genetic link to poverty!

Additionally, many people with this genetic link have children who may pass on the
link but who have normal lives -- illness is never triggered.

Whatever . . . it is SOLELY up to the pregnant female to decide what she wants to
do about the pregnancy.

And, there is Native American spirituality which believes that the spirit doesn't
enter the fetus until just before birth. There are many different spiritual and
non-spiritual views on all of this.

:)

[uppityperson]

90. Schizophrenia used to be a catch-all back then though

Many people who were now not diagnosed schizophrenic ended up with that diagnosis back then.

[defendandprotect]

93. As I remember it it was a general opinion overall on mental illness . . .

the nature/nurture argument gave way to nature being taken out of it.

I see you're not the original poster and I was thinking of going to go back

to add that while nurture was directed at parents, many have given thought

to environment. As we've polluted our planet and foods and water over ages,

the most intelligent people among us may be the first harmed.

The brain can be considered the most vulnerable/susceptible organ of the body.

Additionally, many of the plants used long ago -- freely -- seemed to have been

helpful.



:)

[defendandprotect]

79. And . . . ????

[thereismore]

101. And he was born healthy. nt

[defendandprotect]

112. Which means what, in your mind?

You may be saying that you'll adopt every child with this kind of history . . .?
If so, congratulations to you!

However, what is being said is that GENERALLY prospective adoptive parents do not
want such a child. Better understanding of mental illness and improved medications
may in future ease the public's fear. But it is true that not every child who has
the genetic link will become ill. Many don't. The trigger for the disease seems in
some part to be linked to stress -- and then again, maybe not?

It is true that the genetic link exists in some way but I'm personally not sure that
it means anything but that the brain is the most sensistive organ of the body and
that the most intelligent among us may be the first to suffer ill effects from
pollution and destruction of our food nutrition?

In that connection . . .
We now know that Spina Bifida -- neural cord disorders -- are caused by a lack of
folate in the diet of the pregnant female - folic acid in its synthetic form.
This is simply fresh fruits and vegetables -- and yet the FDA has never conducted a
campaign to make young females and their families aware of this information!
They have added folic acid to flour, however.

[thereismore]

113. I agree with you, take it easy. nt

[Kerrytravelers]

80. Since we're not doctors and don't know the medical history of this young woman or Alda's mom,

I can't possibly make a comparison. And, since whether to abort or carry to term is a personal, private medical decision, I don't need to concern myself with comparisons.

[thereismore]

102. That's fine, but the original poster did make a generalization about mothers with schizophrenia. nt

[Fresh_Start]

10. If people are so determined to adopt.....

why do we still have 500,000 children in foster care. Instead of waiting for a perfect baby, they should be adopting the half-million children who are already desperate for a family.

[Texas Lurker]

29. Foster Care

Perhaps I can help with your question. My answer is 20 years
old as my youngest is 21 and a couple of years later we
stopped our work with the adoption agency.

1) Very few babies were in foster care more than a few weeks.
2) Almost all those older than a couple of weeks were minority
children, it was very hard to find minorities who would adopt.
3) Whites who tried to adopt blacks were told they didn't
understand how to take care of a black child. Oddly when we
lived in Africa no one ever said we were doing it wrong and we
always had a house full of kids.
4) Almost all girls over two years old had been molested, and
it was thought they would have years of problems. People
handle health issues better than emotional ones.
5) Many children in Foster care still had parents and there is
always hope a family can be rebuilt.
6) People want babies not the emotional problems of others.
Few babies went unadopted, it was older children who stayed in
the system.

I am sure there are other reasons and remember my info is 20
years old.

[pnwmom]

49. Welcome to DU, Texas Lurker! n/t

[kiranon]

133. Often the birth parents will not relinquish their rights and the children

once they are older are much less likely to be adopted. And, a lot of people want a perfect child and a child that looks like them. We adopted two special needs children and most people tell us right up front that we were crazy to do so including the social worker who worked on our adoption. The pool of people who will adopt domestically is small also because of legal problems that arise if the birth mom/dad wants the child back. Many people choose to adopt internationally to avoid having any legal issues with the birth parents later.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

11. I disagree with your bottom line -

Just because a smug, narrow-minded asshole made a pronouncement doesn't make the situation complicated.

It's a very simple situation, and it was handled very intelligently.

The girl should have been on birth control, though, because she's gonna keep having sex, no matter where she is. This happens.

But that anti-choice "friend" is no friend, and both your lives are better off without her and her asinine judgments in them.

Good for you for speaking up and defending your friend.

But, it was simple. And correct. And wonderful that the choice exists.........................

[pnwmom]

48. BIRTH CONTROL! That was my first thought, too.

As I said in my post further down on this thread, that is the next thing this mother needs to do for her daughter. Hopefully, the daughter will agree with an option that doesn't require daily compliance.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

50. Norplant ...........

That stuff is made for situations like this one.

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-norplant

I worked with emotionally disturbed adolescents during my internship in my clinical psych doctoral program, and birth control was the first thing you looked at when a girl was admitted to our residence. It was asking for trouble to ignore that very simple reality.

Today, though, there is HIV to consider, and I shudder to think of how wrong everything can go if you can't sell people on the idea of condoms EVERY DAMN TIME.................

[uppityperson]

65. early 80's I worked in a facility with mentally, emotionally & physically handicapped adults

one young woman with (what was called schizophrenia at the time that diagnosis was a giant catchall), we gave her shots of depo-provera. I hadn't thought of her for 25 yrs.

[pnwmom]

94. Yes, about condoms. But another good option for B.C.

is the I.U.D. There's a type that can be fitted even in a woman who's never been pregnant. Its typical side effects are good ones -- fewer, lighter periods with less or no cramping. The young woman I know who has one swears by it.

[madeline_con]

121. My thoughts, too. BC only protects against pregnancy.

I'm assuming the woman had completely unprotected sex.

[MiniMe]

59. True, but being schizophrenic and living on her own, it would have to

be something that she wouldn't have to remember to take. There are several methods that work that way. Unfortunately, none of them protect against any of the diseases you can get.

[malaise]

13. Send her this link

Apparently only the pre-born lives count

http://news.aol.com/article/prayer-death/486303?icid=sphere_newsaol_inpage
<snip>

A mother accused of praying instead of seeking medical help for her dying 11-year-old daughter was found guilty Friday of second-degree reckless homicide.
A Marathon County jury deliberated for about 3 1/2 hours before convicting Leilani Neumann, 41, of Weston. She faces up to 25 years in prison, but no sentencing date had been set.

Neumann's daughter, Madeline, died from untreated diabetes on March 23, 2008, surrounded by people praying for her. When she stopped breathing, her parents' business and Bible study partners finally called 911.

Prosecutors contend a reasonable parent would have known something was gravely wrong with Madeline and that her mother recklessly killed her by ignoring obvious symptoms, such as her inability to walk or talk.

[Texas Lurker]

15. Abortion vs Adoption

You say... Me: "A baby whose mother has SCHITZOPHERNIA?
People who adopt want perfect babies, this baby clearly would
have a genetic liability".

Well I'll still be your friend, but here you are just wrong. I
have a 26 year old son who we adopted with heart problems. We
spent years at Texas Children's and The Methodist Hospital in
Houston working on it. We also have a 21 year old daughter
whose mother had MASSIVE drug problems and was a run away at
15. Our daughter is bipolar and it took years and tears to
work the problems out. Both are doing well.

Many adopted children have real problems.

I am a liberal Texan who happens to be pro life, though I do
understand there needs to be some exceptions, NOT millions,
but some.

[Dora]

25. There are not "millions" of exceptions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Number_of_abortions_in_United_States

Many people do want to adopt "perfect" children. Not so many are as willing as you to take on the challenge of raising a child with health issues. I applaud your decision, and I just wanted to give you the correct figures on the rate of abortion in the U.S.

[Texas Lurker]

32. Adoptions

My comment was that I understand that exceptions must be made
to my pro life position, but that there are in fact millions
of abortions done for birth control reasons. I know perhaps 30
women who have had abortions and none of them were raped,
involved in incest or was having a child who had a severe
problem.

[Kerrytravelers]

38. Or maybe they just didn't tell you all their private business.

[uppityperson]

66. "there are in fact millions of abortions done for birth control reasons"? I have questions for you

1) do you mean abortion is being used as the primary birth control method, causing millions of abortions?

2) Where did you get that fact from please?

3) Do you feel that the only good reason for an abortion is rape, incest, or having a child with a severe problem?

4) Does that apply to which trimesters?

Thank you and am glad that there are people who will adopt children who are not "perfect white babies".

[Tangerine LaBamba]

69. Put a sock in it -

You're loving to quote that old canard, and, sure, yeah, right, you know 30 women who had abortions as a matter of birth control.

Right. You're calling it "birth control" when, in fact - if these women really exist - it was a case of unintended pregnancy, and, you know what? A first-trimester abortion doesn't need a reason - a woman can have one. Her reasons are her own. A right to privacy, it's called.

But you are really sorely out of your league if you think lying on your back, naked from the waist down, feet in stirrups, and having a complicated, cold metal medical device inserted into you, having it do its vacuum job - which hurts like you would not believe - and then the month of bleeding and cramps, the fatigue, the resultant anemia, the inability to use tampons, showers instead of baths, and the return to the clinic to make sure you're all right is a valid kind of birth control.

You've just got an agenda, and it's invalid. Bogus. Laughable.

You call yourself "pro life," but I've got news for you - we're all pro-life. You just happen to be anti-choice, and that's fine. If you don't approve of legal abortion, don't have one.

But, it's legal, and while it's legal, it's safe, and Roe v. Wade is, I believe, going to be the law our of beautiful land for a long, long time........................

[uppityperson]

71. Thank you. I'm trying to elicit a response instead

rather like handing that poster some more rope. I would like to have written what you did. Thank you

[Tangerine LaBamba]

73. Thanks .........

I have no patience with these people who come up with their moronic stories - abortion as birth control.

Sometimes I lose it. I'm glad you got it. Thanks again ...............

[uppityperson]

75. He/she was doing ok with the adoption stories for the first few posts

I checked to see if was still a member before posting, am finding this wise the last couple days. Imagine my surprise when still is.

[defendandprotect]

83. You've just seen the statistics .. . am I wrong . . . in the 800,000 range?

And are you saying that women have to prove their reasons to someone else if they

haven't been raped, victims of incest, or aren't carrying a fetus with a problem?


Keep in mind that we do not have 100% user-friendly birth control --
when we do, then women won't need to use abortion as "birth control."


The right-wing challenge to abortion is generally aimed at the late term abortions
... where the 10 year old incest victim who doesn't even know she is pregnant needs
a third trimester abortion.

Where rape victims haven't been given Plan B -- or where they are in such shock that
they haven't even reported the crime, later realize they are pregnant.

Also seems to be young girls who can't face the reality and especially can't face
being dishonored in the eyes of their parents wait until it becomes physically obvious.
Some still manage to hide it.

Many parents are in favor of the young girl continuing her education rather than moving
to the "Mommy track" at 15 or 16 years of age.

And, consider the Becky Bell death due to "notification laws" which pushed her to an
illegal abortion.
I'm sure many parents are grateful that they did become aware -- and that their state
didn't have notification laws which would have provided a way for them to have CONTROL
over a perhaps dead daughter!

[Dora]

104. My point is that there are not millions of abortions, period.

Look at the statistics in the link. In 2005 - the most recent year cited - there weren't even one million abortions.

Stop lying to yourself and to others by believing and spreading misinformation.

[Control-Z]

123. What difference does it make

HOW the unwanted pregnancy happened? That ship has sailed by the time abortion is being considered. What matters is that the pregnancy is unwanted.

[cap]

40. you are the exception who adopts these types of kids

most of those types of kids go unadopted. Why aren't you pushing your fellow pro-lifers to take on these children? In your next pro-life meeting, start handing out the lists of children who need homes and start demanding that the pro-lifers take these kids in. Instead of coming on this board to engage pro-choice people, you could be doing a heck of a lot of good with the pro-life movement by forcing them to take personal responsibility for their platform. Conservatives love to hear about personal responsibility.

Heck, go to the pro-life Church and ask them to start publishing these lists of kids in their Sunday bulletin. At your next rally in front of an abortion clinic, start handing out the signup sheet.

[Texas Lurker]

41. Reply

Goodness you are very angry at something, I hope I didn't do
it!

Haven't been to church in years, and have never been any
closer to an abortion clinic then passing by on the street.

Do you have to be pro abortion to post here? did you make that
rule? I have been active since the 60's at the University of
Texas and there's a hell of a lot more to being liberal and a
Democrat than this issue.

[Kerrytravelers]

51. The term is pro-choice. No one is pro-abortion. People are pro-choice.

[Texas Lurker]

52. Reply

People here seem to be pro choice so long as I don't pick
life.

... and there are LOTS of pro abortion folks out there ...

[varelse]

53. Pro choice means you believe *others* have the right to choose

just as you do. Of course your right to "choose life" should you happen to get pregnant is respected here. That does not mean we respect any right you might believe you have, to decide how other women will deal with an unwanted pregnancy.

[Kerrytravelers]

55. "Pro-abortion" is a RW meme. It is meant to make pro-choice people seem as if they enjoy abortion.

No one is handing out two-for-one coupons at the Planned Parenthood.

You are welcome to make the personal choice to continue gestation, regardless of the circumstances, if you so desire. It is up to you. It is your choice. However, you do not have the right to dictate what other women and families choose based on their private circumstances. That is the pro-choice belief.

Again, understand this- "pro-abortion" is a right-wing meme that is baseless and factless. It is an attempt to paint their opposition as blood-thirsty.

[uppityperson]

68. Wrong. Pro-choice means women have the choice.

It isn't forced birth or forced abortion.

You seem confused by what pro-choice actually is.

What do you mean by "pro abortion folks"?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

70. No one is pro-abortion -

that's a completely incorrect term.

You are anti-choice.

We're all pro-life, except for the chronically suicidal among us .........................

[uppityperson]

67. "Do you have to be pro abortion to post here? " Big sigh.

Who is "pro abortion" and what do you mean by that?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

74. I've noticed,

in looking through this thread, that there are no answers to your questions.

Uh-huh.

Adopted kids.

Right.

Knows 30 women who had abortions as birth control.

Sure.

Can you say - oh, what's that word? Rhymes with "roll." You know the one I mean, right?

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

85. Same as I've been thinking . . .like the fake clinics . . .

[uppityperson]

87. Had a friend sucked in by one of them once

they played up with guilt card big. Later she told me she got a second trimester abortion rather than the first she'd wanted because of them and became very active in trying to shut them down

[defendandprotect]

88. Makes clear how dangerous they are to health of women . . .

and presume there are a wealth of other stories about them.

:)

[yodoobo]

82. As a matter of fact, yes

"Do you have to be pro abortion to post here?"

This board is for liberals only. Conservatives are not welcome.

And the term is PRO-CHOICE thank you very much.

[defendandprotect]

84. Are you saying you're "pro-life" but pro-choice . . . ?? In other words,

do you agree that your sister, niece, aunt, daughter, sister-in-law, neighbor . . .

should have the right to an abortion and to make their own choice?

And, especially that we should be training doctors to do abortions -- including

late term abortions because someone's loved one will need one.

There are about 4 in every county every year.

[AwakeAtLast]

117. Any of those babies to be adopted come from wealthy women?

I'm sure the answer is no, because they will always have safe abortions provided to them whether they are legal or not. It's the lower classes who are threatened with having our choices taken away.

[damntexdem]

16. Breaking off the friendship -- a threat or a promise?

Well, an embryo outranks a human friend any day, I guess.

[sohndrsmith]

17. Hm. Are sperm donors required to reveal any/all psych disorders

(controlled, overcome, current, etc.) or within their family history? I'm guessing yes? I don't know - and my question is not an attempt to make a point - I'm flatly curious. The answer might give me cause to have an opinion - but I don't know.

Another question might be - if one questions the mental health of the mother - are the same people questioning the mental health status of the men having sex with her?

"Bottom line, abortion is hardly ever an easy, uncomplicated situation." -- a painfully accurate, true analysis. Thanks.

[defendandprotect]

76. People are always free to lie, of course, male or female . .. however, that

young girl would have had to reveal medications and probably other facts that

would make her health condition clear.

As they say, we always know who the mother is --

that isn't true of the father.

[northzax]

21. seems like this woman is being very generous with other people's resources

the question is, would SHE be willing to take the baby (and care for the mother during pregnancy?) if not, then stop talking about other people being so eager.

[mntleo2]

22. Plus the woman is a legal adult

...she can choose whatever she wants, schizophrenic or not. I have just been through much the same and am adopting my grand niece. Believe me, if your friend thinks living with someone like this woman is easy, well she is wrong. There is NO help and if the young woman thinks she isn't sick, well according to her rights, SHE ISN'T SICK (and most schizophrenics do not think they need anything or anyone and are just fine ~ it is the rest of the world that is crazy). she would most likely in her delusion think SHE could be a wonderful parent and either hurt the kid unintentionally or kill it because she suddenly believed the baby was Satan or something ...keeping the child is what most of them do and then something happens and the family or someone else is left with the wreckage.

Mental health with adults is one of the most difficult things to get assistance with. You are just on your own as a family member. If you think it is easy to live with someone who is literally crazy without becoming crazy yourself due to trying to figure out 24/7 what is "real" and what is not, your friend is wrong. What good would that do?

My uncle died living in a boarding house with a young man who was in this shape. The young man was playing with matches in his room and suddenly the bed clothes caught fire. The house went up in flames ~ and it killed my uncle.

Get your friend to get the picture: THERE IS NO HELP FOR ADULTS WHO ARE MENTALLY ILL UNLESS THE MENTALLY ILL ADULT ADMITS THEY ARE, AND THE ADULT USUALLY WON'T. If this mother took in her daughter, who the HELL would that help? If this daughter tried to take care of a baby when she is not sane, who the hell would this harm?

Feel free to give this to your friend and PM me if she wants to hear the REST of the story ...

Geez some people are ignorant!

Cat In Seattle

[JonLP24]

23. I hate the use of the phrase 'murder' when it isn't appropriate

Murder by definition is unlawful killing of a human being.

I'm very strongly anti-death penalty but calling the DP murder isn't correct. The correct phrase is state-sanctioned homicide.

[Ron Green]

24. Why do we continue to call these people "pro life?"

[Kerrytravelers]

39. Exactly. Forced-birth. They must force the birthing process, regardless of the circumstances.

Circumstances they never care to hear or understand, by the way.

[shanti]

60. i prefer "anti-choice"

we're pro-choice, they're anti-choice.

[Kerrytravelers]

77. I like a combination of the two: anti-choice force-birthers. Kind of sums them up entirely.

They want to take away the privacy of women and family's medical choices and force the birthing process, regardless of the circumstances.

[Hepburn]

110. +1...n/t

[defendandprotect]

91. I like to remind them they are "pro-life" when they commit murder . . .

oxymoronic. . .

but I do agree with the move to anti-abortion --

in fact, IMO, most of them are also anti-birth control --

The Catholic Church has a lot at stake here . . . if they

lose the abortion argument, birth control arguments will fall

even more easily!

[Greyhound]

27. This anti-choice moran is not a friend. Friends do not bail over things like this. n/t

[Confusious]

28. Love that response... The best I have heard in 40 years

(my response: Get over your self-righteous self. I don't see you adopting unwanted babies or doing a damn thing other than bitch about how of your precious money goes towards caring for these kids once they are born)

We should print that on posters and t-shirts.

[TexasObserver]

33. The notion that all pregnancies should end in birth is irrational.

Any woman who is unready to have a child should not have it.

And she gets the exclusive right to decide if she is "unready."

Sometimes, abortion is clearly the wisest choice.

[kestrel91316]

34. I don't allow people like that to be in my circle of friends.

[shanti]

61. friends, no

relatives....well, what can you do about that? :shrug: i have a few RW xtian anti-choicers in my family (i'm ashamed to say).

[pipi_k]

35. I'm a rotten grandma too, apparently

Some years ago my own daughter got pregnant with babies she neither wanted, nor was financially/emotionally able to care for.

She has a long history of clinical depression, anxiety, and in addition, was an alcoholic and drug user. Oh, and the fathers? Forget it.

I strongly urged her to have the abortions (I believe she had three of them).

Was I sad over the loss of potential grandkids? Sure enough.

Was I relieved that three innocent little babies would NOT be having to deal with a mom who could not care for them...not to mention the potential for severe birth defects....? A big yes to that, also.

She did end up getting pregnant a fourth time and even though she's not quite June Cleaver, she's still better now than she was. And she is married to the father of her son (five years old now) and he loves his son with all his heart.


The moral of my story, I guess, is that I'm able and willing to tolerate difference in opinion from my friends and still maintain the friendships as long as my friends don't try to force their belief on me. I expect the same from them. Funny, though, I often see people on the other side of this issue absolutely refusing to tolerate a difference of opinion. With them, you either fall in line with their beliefs or you're kicked to the curb like so much trash.

[B Calm]

37. You mean your ANTI CHOICE friend...

[SheilaT]

42. I tend to point out to the "pro-lifers"

that if they don't believe in abortion, they don't have to have one.

I, likewise, get increasingly furious at those who have NEVER had to face the difficult choice but find it very easy to condemn others who have dealt with such things. Men, in general, I believe have no right whatsoever to attempt to control what a woman does with her body. She's the one who gets pregnant.

I started telling my sons, when they were about ten or so, that maybe it wasn't fair, but it was absolutely right that the woman have the final say in whether or not she has a baby after becoming pregnant. And that includes if she wants to have the baby, no matter how much the man might not want it. Choice does go both ways.

[zbdent]

43. ask your "friend" if she is pro assassination ...

and also, if she was so supportive of Bush when he signed the legislation which said that an accountant can make the medical decision of who deserves life support, based solely on whether or not they can pay the bill ...

[krabigirl]

44. Yikes. Be glad she will drop you as a friend...you don't need "friends" like those.

[pnwmom]

45. The mother should take this young woman to a doctor for long term birth control.

For example, there is a type of IUD that can be inserted even in a woman who's never had a pregnancy. I know someone who has one and she loves it -- says she has fewer periods, they are very light, and she finally has no cramps.

[kiranon]

134. But, if the adult daughter won't go that is the end of the story.

[mnhtnbb]

46. You are well rid of this friend. Incubating babies because someone

else will adopt them? Tell her to read The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood and get over herself.

[Ilsa]

54. The young woman's schizophrenia meds might not be compatable

with pregnancy. she might have yo go off her meds because they could be teratogenic. That would mean she could be even more difficult for her family assist. There are many unknown issues here, and it isn't anyone's business anyway.

[defendandprotect]

72. Well, right-wing propaganda -- largely anti-female -- works well . . . !!!

Even many women buy it !!!

Some day she'll wake up -- and I hope if it's someone she loves who needs
a late term abortion, that it's available for her!

You can be sure that the hypocrites in Congress who make these laws which
so harm women will protect their own families.

I hear many "pro-life" protesters have come in for abortions!
Rationalizing all the way why their case is different from others!

[EFerrari]

92. That's right. Abortion is not an easy decision. And your friend is not pro -life.

She's pro Monday morning quarterbacking other people's lives. Which is bullshit.

[nini]

95. Why can't she adopt this child if it means so much to her?

They need to start putting up or shut up.

[havocmom]

97. I would have told the 'friend' that unless she were willing to adopt the child herself

she should STFU about it and not be telling others how to live their lives. And adios.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[TheKentuckian]

98. I'm not comfortable calling children of people who suffer from schizophrenia

genetic liabilities. I think choice is a strong enough argument without laying the foundation for a eugenics program. I also suggest the harsh reality of the many times as many children as willing and able parents that will never be adopted as is.

If it wasn't for fucked up parents somewhere along the line I doubt a single one of us would be here or anywhere.

[Maru Kitteh]

99. Sometimes abortion is very easy.

And I really don't think anyone should ever have to explain themselves or feel any particular need for heart-tugging justifications. I understand the value in explaining to others that their vision of careless, "loose" women, all on welfare, all of some kind of color, all without husbands, too lazy to use birth control, lined up around the corner for their free gubment abortion is seriously disconnected from reality. I get that.

I just worry that we're spending a lot of time explaining the "noble" abortion, when in fact it's nobody else's business. It's a private, medical procedure. It doesn't need a noble story. It's the law.

This probably isn't the best OP to make this point in, and for that I apologize. I just felt I had to say it. I'll probably make this into an OP myself tomorrow.


In the mean time, Cherish, you did a great thing. True compassion, wisdom, and the law are on your side.

[LostinVA]

105. You mean an anti-choice friend

[AngryOldDem]

106. Why didn't your friend offer to adopt the child?

I mean, that would have been the "pro-life" thing to do, now wouldn't it?

And it pisses me off that the girl's mother is now persona non grata with your friend. Love the narrow, conditional "support" that's offered in these sad situations. Just gives me the warm fuzzies.

This happens a lot, and the "pro-lifers" wonder why a lot of us see their "compassionate" movement for the pure, unadulterated, self-serving, rhetorical bullshit that 99% of it is.

[Hepburn]

108. Whadda self-righteous POS ~~ this is NO friend to anyone

Friends are NOT judgmental. PERIOD. What the decision was is NONE OF HER BUSINESS. I would tell her you totally support what the grandmother did and tell her you welcome ridding your life of her.

JMHO

[JerseygirlCT]

114. Perhaps your anti-choice friend ought to do the right thing

and offer to take the young woman in, adopt the baby, and care for and support both baby and mother for several years.



Oh, you mean she's only interested in preaching to other people about what they should do?

[WillowTree]

122. Which one of you thought you were going to change the other's mind?

[undeterred]

125. I have 2 friends who had abortion due to birth control failures.

For one of them it would have been a career disaster at the time, but it also could have had questionable effects on a very serious rare medical condition she had. She really didn't know what the effects would be. A pregnancy might have killed her or she might have been fine. Who is in the position to make that decision except the person affected by it?

Another friend had serious mental health problems when she became pregnant. She was taking the birth control pill and many meds for depression at the time and had recently been hospitalized for depression. Who could have made the decision except my friend and her doctor, who advised against the pregnancy?

These situations are seldom black and white, and they are always difficult. We need to protect that decision making space against people who don't understand.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

126. Anti-choice!!!!!! You cannot allow these people define the debate!!!

[adamuu]

127. good response

ask how many unwanted babies she has adopted
plus bellyaching about the cost of social programs
love it

[area51]

128. Ask your friend ...

... why she's in favor of the death sentence for people who can't afford life-saving healthcare? That's pretty much the definition of pro-death and post-birth abortion. Why is it that these nutcases only care about the fetus, then as soon as it's born, you can kill it for all they care? :shrug: