Millenials: I'm thinking of both Tiananmen Square and you.

[leftyclimber]

I was in the summer between my sophomore and junior years in college when the Tiananmen Square massacre went down (yeah, I'm old). Protested regularly. Civil rights of all sorts, anti-Apartheid, the Rodney King verdict, the freedom to come out (we were still there in the late 80s where I was, unfortunately) that kind of stuff.

In China, these were my peers demanding democracy. Kids my age. A kid my age standing in front of a tank, keeping it from moving further. It hit me hard. They died for what they believed in. We believed in them, and we were appalled at the Chinese government's reaction. And this was before Gulf War I but after Reagan's depredations. It was ugly.

I teach y'all now. And I wonder: do you have any moments in your personal history where you've watched your peers die for something they believe in? Do you mind that your public universities/community colleges/high schools declare "free speech zones" as opposed to letting the whole enchilada be a free speech zone? Do you feel that protest is productive on your campus/in your life sphere?

I can't ask my students these questions or I would be reported to David Horowitz and all sort of RW nutballs. I can't tell you how stupid this is, because I just want to understand you. I just want to know what you care about, what's important to you. I'm struck by the reports that your Chinese peers took as a lesson from Tiananmen Square that it was better to keep your head down, finish your degree, and demand nothing. Do you feel the same way?

How do you deal with the American clampdowns on free speech on your campuses? What matters to you? What do you protest?

I ask in ignorance, as I am an Old Fart.

I think you guys rock. You're enthusiastic, compassionate, and unfocused in some ways and hyperfocused in others, just as I was at that age. This is Good.

I happen to work with a group of y'all that tends to be pretty socially/politically conservative. Even the conservative-ish ones of you, though, have a lot of potential to open their minds. Most of the "kids" I've encountered are willing to think, and I admire that of you.

What say you young DUers? What issues make you tick? Are you a student in Tiananmen Square, or is it more productive to keep your head down?

Educate me.

Thanks in advance.

-curious leftyclimber

[rockymountaindem]

1. Honestly, I think a lot of people in my generation, if not most, eschew protesting

because we can't really see anything that it has accomplished in the recent past. I think that is a somewhat myopic view in light of the great successes of the civil rights movement and nonviolent resistance. That is one clear example of protests leading to change. However, for the most part, protesting just doesn't have a good image with this generation, and I can see why.

People my age who want to change the system see themselves changing it from within. Others just see themselves paying back their student loans for the next 15 years and aren't interested in having anything more to do with "the system" in any form.

[leftyclimber]

2. Thank you, RMD.

I've wondered how student loans play into the equation. I'm quite a hunk down myself, and it quiets what you'd like to say -- how might your speech affect your ability to get a job?

I'm a partial fan of changing things from within, when I've been outside the system for a while. Then I get back inside of it and feel like it's a big black hole that I can't escape. So I sit on the event horizon, resenting myself and trying to figure out how to be true to myself and still be employable so I can pay off those damn loans. Sixty grand or so down and nothing to show for it, other than the possibility that I may have to leave the country in order to have any kind of a future.

Would you say that's a fair cop for the "others," even if their solution may not be as extreme as mine?

[rockymountaindem]

3. I'm not sure anybody's trying to cop

I think that people just see more avenues for positive change from within than from out in the streets, and more people are interested in making big money (to pay back those loans) than they are in making any changes overall.

[leftyclimber]

10. I can totally see that.

I don't fault anyone for wanting to pay their debts. It's a very responsible thing to do. It's just so frustrating when we have to decide between doing the so-called responsible thing and doing what we know is right.

It frustrates me that we are so indentured to The Man that we're not able to take care of the things we think are important.

I really don't think we're all that different, when it comes down to brass tacks. I'm just trying to see where the line is. And I'm getting the impression that GenX and GenY/the Millenials aren't all that different.

We're just trying to keep our heads above water and it keeps us from other things sometimes.

[Chisox08]

4. One of the problems with my generation

Is that we have been told to sit down and shut all of our lives. When the Iraq War first broke out my sister's high school threatened to suspend any student who attended the anti-war protest. Most of the students walk out so much so that the school couldn't follow through on their threat.
Protest in recent years has lost its effectiveness due to media outlets like Faux News downplaying the protest unless it was their cooperate sponsored tea party. We have seen protesters locked into "Free Speech Zones" far enough away as not to disturb the Bush Crime Family.
The economy also is playing a big role in what is going on. We are looking at huge student loans with few job opportunities. We are worried about paying off those huge debts more than we are worried about other pressing social issues. In my opinion they are using student loans and the lack of well paying jobs as a means to control us. During the Civil Rights movement and the Anti Vietnam War protest people could afford to miss a couple of days of work in order to protest. When you are only making min. wage in a part time job you can not afford to be more politically active.

[leftyclimber]

12. No kidding.

The loan thing looms large in my life too. Imagine being half the way to retirement and knowing it's not going to come because you had to retool, which is where I am. I love what I do now, but it infuriates me that I had to live half of to get to that point. I hope you guys figure it out earlier so you don't have to go through what I'm dealing with now -- I have to work until I die, and I hope I figured it out right at my age so I don't have to go through yet another job reconfiguration, or my estate's going to be some sort of ugly satire I don't want to imagine.

Suspend any student, eh? That's nuts. And that's what I didn't have to go through. They used to let us out of high school to go to protests. No kidding.

And that's what I worry about, when it comes to protest. Is that my students are telling me what they think I want to hear in hopes that they get through. I'd love a student who would bust my ass telling me what they thought I might disagree with, with a well-supported, well-balanced argument. I don't want to hear my lectures fed back to me (realize also that I may not be the norm and that there is a game that must be played, one that I am sucked into, too. I don't like it, but debt looms largely above my head, too.).

I'm afraid of the parroting. I'd rather give an A to a well-argued something I disagree with than a poorly argued something I agree with.

But student loans are crushing us and we just want to get through. I guess that GenX or GenY/millenial we don't have the luxury of protesting a lot of things because of fear. Whether it's fear of continuing in school or fear that that job might not come because of our beliefs we might not be able to be open and still survive, there's still a lot of fear dictacting what we might say or do.

[Chisox08]

14. A few years ago my Ethics professor bump my grade up from a B to an A

because I wasn't afraid to challenge him. Most of my fellow classmates just regurgatated his lectures back to him in the belief that they would get a better grade. Often they complained that they deserved better than the C that they earned.
I believe that all student loans should be forgiven. Student and loans should never be used together. It is one of the things that is not the cost of healthcare that is crushing us. Fear is forcing us to conform to the standards to the people in charge. Fear of finacial ruin keep people in dead end jobs that they hate. Fear of getting bad grades keeps students from challenging their teachers and spreading new ideas and open debate. The fear of challenging our government gets us into two unnecessary wars, torture that will go unpunished and a ruined economy.
FDR was right when he said: "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." Fear is driving too many aspects of our lives.

[Recursion]

19. As a slightly older person...

... I was in junior high when the Tiananmen Square massacre happened.

We weren't really told to sit down and shut up about, say, the gulf war or other things (there are a lot less of us than of your generation, though, so it wasn't as important to "control" us). But when we did find our taste for protesting (World Bank, WTO, globalization, etc.) the older "activists" said we were crazy and just trying to protest for its own sake in emulation of them. I think a lot of people my age kind of dropped out when the older activist movement showed 0 interest in solidarity (and frankly more interest in their globalization-backed 401(k)).

[ZombieNixon]

5. I'd agree with rockymountaindem

I think there's a certain amount of resentment towards our parents' generation for being the people who were so known for vocal protesting in the 1960s, while so many people our parents' age went on to buy SUVs and vote for Reagan in the '80s. Not to say that everyone did, because that's decidedly not the case, but the perceived inefficacy of the protest movement (I say "perceived" because protestors in the '60s and '70s did play a part in scoring significant victories, like civil rights and ending the draft and Vietnam) turned us off to using protest marches as the only tactic of political involvement.

I think many people my age seek to change the system from within. This carries its own risks, as so many who seek to make change from within the system get co-opted by it, but it takes a certain resolve not to be, so who knows? Maybe it'll work.

[leftyclimber]

13. It's kind of funny.

There's supposed to be all these sociological differences between GenX and GenY/millenials, but I see a lot of similarities.

We were both supposed to retool work. Retool "live to work" to "work to live," the cynicism/optimism (myself, I'm an amazing contradiction in both of these, and maybe you are, too, but that's what the sociologists said), the dedication to volunteering/contributing some sort of not-for-personal-gain sort of contribution to society, and so on.

Everything the ubiquitous "they" have said about "you," they've said about "us." The generation that would retool it all and create some sort of new wonder generation. It's a lot of pressure, maybe too much. And maybe kind of optimistic and silly.

Just speaking from my personal perspective, we've gotten a lot done from both angles. Hollering in the streets combined with personal commitments that extend that hollering have made some significant change (I particularly speak about Apartheid, which was really big in my age group, but there are other issues as well -- that's just the biggie for me). Maybe you guys have internalized The Personal Is The Political better than we have.)

I hope y'all can carry the internal struggle forward better than we have. But while I have no doubt we have meant well I still think we could have done better.

Who knows? Maybe when you guys are pushing 40 you'll feel the same way. I sure hope not.

Regardless, we all stand on the shoulders of giants. I hope GenX has done OK by you guys, and I hope the next generation feels the same way looking back at you. :)

[OneGrassRoot]

6. I appreciate this thread, and have questions, too. :)

On changing the system from within...can you be more specific?

I'll preface my next question with the very sincere statement that I am NOT judging -- not at all.

Depending upon how you envision changing the system from within, would you say this path is chosen primarily based on fear? Fear of being ostracized, fear of financial ruin, fear or something more ominous?

Thanks for the insight. :)

[Prism]

11. Maybe an example

I work in a corporate environment, and GLBT/social justice are very much the two things I feel most passionately about. I'm not much of a wave-maker, but I'm pretty unbending about discrimination and bigotry. I try to quietly steer co-workers and office policy in positive directions through private conversation rather than grand pronouncements and battles, try to nudge people into being more willing and happy to support the local community, try to let people know about events or activities I think they'd like that support good causes.

If you knew me from the outside, you'd think I was just trying to make my bucks, get that flat-screen tv, and find the quickest path through the capitalistic rat race. But you'll find a lot of younger people who are trying to balance their beliefs and principles with the current requirements of our economy and finding different ways to do it.

Without judging anyone else, I find, for me, that personal persuasion is the best method for changing individuals. I often find confrontation will calcify divisions rather than dissolve them. This is just my personal experience speaking. The grand, theatrical roar of the activist is oftentimes thrilling to witness, but at the end of the day, people are individuals, and it takes an awful lot more than a speech or two to make them change their minds. It takes persistent, day to day interaction, conversations with instead of declarations at.

I concede others feel a lot differently on this sort of thing. I think part of my feeling stems from entering adulthood in the cable news era, where people are always shouting at each other, talking past each other, settling into their differences rather than trying to bridge them. Someone, somewhere is always screaming, and I think it's become to easy to simply ignore it, just walk on by, it's just another spectacle in a world with a million of them.

Hard to articulate.

[OneGrassRoot]

15. Prism, you articulated this very well. :)

This makes so much sense and is really, very wise. I thank you tremendously for sharing your experience and thoughts here.

"I often find confrontation will calcify divisions rather than dissolve them. This is just my personal experience speaking. The grand, theatrical roar of the activist is oftentimes thrilling to witness, but at the end of the day, people are individuals, and it takes an awful lot more than a speech or two to make them change their minds. It takes persistent, day to day interaction, conversations with instead of declarations at."

Brilliant.

Godspeed to you and your efforts, personally and otherwise. :)

[Prism]

7. I think the changing nature of media is responsible

Thinking about protests over the past ten years, they just never seemed to make much difference in the long or short term. They're often reduced to little blurbs on television news, another event in the dozens that filter through our attention every single day. On college campuses, you see a handful of people pushing this or that cause, but they're ubiquitous and are just one in a thousand "very important causes" that vie for our attention in a world where everything is calculated to distract us.

The internet, however, allows people to feel included in groups, to push causes, to find other like-minded individuals, to develop networks for events and activities, to recruit friends, acquaintances, or family members.

At least since the late 90s and all through my twenties, I more often saw outrage at government or social inequality expressed not as boots on the ground, but often as livejournal updates, then myspace networks, now facebook. And of course message boards.

I often wonder if the internet isn't a giant "activism sink". People can post, write, emote, express, donate, debate, converse, and get just about anything they want off their chests. It gives the illusion of having "done something" when nothing much at all is accomplished. Even on DU, I see threads with hundreds of posts in a thread, arguments that must've taken dozens of hours of time, and I wonder, when all is said and done, what was accomplished? Why waste so much time?

Rather than create any kind of true movement, it seems the internet is designed to create an army of individualities unbound by any true cohesion or purpose with the pacifying side-effect of making us feel included.

On a personal level, there is a small movement afoot in the GLBT community for a march on Washington this fall. I keep bouncing around the idea of going, but the question always bubbles to the surface - "To what end?" I just don't know what would be accomplished. Some speeches, a giant party, some marching, then everyone goes home . . . and what? I feel like my time and money are better dedicated to local charities and events. I can see the results of my personal activism. I know how my actions are affecting the world around me.

The movements, the protests, the marches. I have no idea what they do. In the past decade, they seem to have bloomed and faded rhythmically over time leaving nary a trace of what they were about or even who participated. Look at the anti-war protests five years ago. While individuals remember, the national consciousness doesn't seem to.

What will replace activism and protest has not yet made a firm arrival. It will be something, and it will be organic, but we still need to come up with it.

[Chisox08]

8. The Internet is to anonymous to make changes in society.

It a good place to get ideas started and to get organized but as with all things on the internet good ideas often get mixed in with pure nonsense. Even on Du I've seen some great ideas but I had to dig through a lot of crap before I got them. Some people don't have the time to read through hundreds of post and blogs so great ideas for change often get ignored.

[Prism]

9. Too true. It seems to work against information retention

I'm just as guilty as the next person, spending hours online reading up on politics to keep informed. However, the results are too often several hours spent reading message boards and blogs and then almost immediately forgetting what it was I read. The heat to light ratio is too frequently overwhelming.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. Fascinating....

What you wrote above, Prism, is very enlightening. How you grew up on cable TV, seeing people shouting at one another nonstop, not really getting anywhere.

And the discussion of the Internet here is also spot on. My life's work is culminating in a project which begins online, but then the goal is to take it into the individual's daily life, in the "real" world, to build stronger physical communities.

The discussion here reinforces that vision for me, as only so much can be accomplished online, but the potential for connection and "aha" moments to form via this medium without boundaries is beyond measure.

I often wonder how different my life would have been had we had The Internet way back when. ;)

Thanks again. :)


Edit for it being too early in the morning and not enough coffee. ;)

[Prism]

17. Could you expand on that a bit?

I'm curious to hear what your project is (PM is ok if you don't want to say so here).

I find it difficult to translate online activity into the real world and would be interested to know how you've gone about bridging the gap. Much of the time, it's easy to form a hundred ideas online and we have the tools for social networking, but I find the leap offline puzzling. Like I wouldn't know where to begin.

And doing anything before coffee is a perilous state of affairs at best =)

[Odin2005]

18. My generation is one that prefers good deeds over good words

We are a generation of volunteers and "community organizers" more than a generation of protesters.

As an example, I volunteer at the local rape and abuse crisis center. I also, with many other posters on the message board Aspies For Freedom work in my spare time on supporting a positive image of high-functioning autistics such as myself and debunking the BS spewed by groups like Autism Speaks that call autism a "disease" that needs to be "cured".