Libertarians the bane of my political existence.. arrggghhhhh

[Peacetrain]

At least when I am talking with, arguing with, debating with, a self proclaimed conservative, republican, liberal, democrat, I have some fairly solid ground work with in the debate cycle.

With Libertarians, I have not a clue. The are all for personal rights, but nothing to protect those rights since they are so anti government.

I will have discussions with a self identified libertarian friend, and they will discount what ever their argument is, ever other sentence.

Example:

My libertarian friends are all for the protection of woman's right to choose, as long as it does not run counter to the rights of states to take away the rights of women to choose. So in being non government (good old Stossel comes to mind) they are pro state government rights to take away individual rights.

Now does any of that make sense. Or am I the totally dense one?

[Homer12]

1. Look at it this way

I look at libertarians as people who want to smoke pot legally and go to a borthel.

It works, trust me.

[Peacetrain]

2. Homer, I came away from that discussion sounding like Porky Pig

"thats all folks".. I think I will take your advice

[Sheepshank]

14. oopps n/t ....post moved

[Downtown Hound]

3. The main problem with Libertarians is their overwhelming faith in free markets and corporations

I was arguing with the head of the Sonoma County Libertarian Party one time a few years back. He was dating a friend of mine. He was espousing the traditional Libertarian talking points (bullshit) about how if Capitalism was left alone, everybody would be free and prosperous. I pointed out to him that all throughout history, including now, whenever Capitalism is left alone, the result is always the same: sweat shops, environmental rape, horrid working conditions, low wages, and crappy product.

His brilliant response to me? "I don't think that would happen today." This was the head of the county Libertarian Party, and he couldn't give a better answer than that. I told him that it does happen today, all he had to do was visit the factory in Asia where his rather expensive Nikes were made, but he still refused to listen.

A Libertarian is nothing but a Republican who smokes pot and like porn.

[Peacetrain]

5. Oh my gosh.. that sounds like my friend..

The discussion on public highways just went round the bend. They think that support for public highways nationwide,is the reason the country is falling apart.

[The_Commonist]

4. In the Libertarian world...

Everyone acts according to their own enlightened self-interest, and understands that everyone else is doing the same.
Unlike in the REAL world...

[Peacetrain]

6. True, trying to get across the idea of doing something

for the greater good of the community, sparks a really hot debate, to the point that I begin to back down because I am worried they are going to break a blood vessel.

[walkaway]

7. What is a libertarian salad?

Lettuce alone!

[Peacetrain]

8. All I can say is

:rofl:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. Libertarians are basically grown-up affluent brats

They wanna do what they wanna do when they wanna do it, and anyone who says otherwise is a Mean Old Government.

Thus they share some of the social ideas of the political left, such as abortion rights or gay right, since they don't believe in regulating private lives, but then they'll jump over to the far right and say that there should be no labor laws, no environmental laws, no public schools, no public anything. Everything should be a private business, and then capitalism will make everything jolly. They out-Republican the Republicans.

Oh, wait, there are just two eensy-teensy exceptions to their eagerness to privatize everything: the military and the judicial system.

That's because they realize deep-down that a society with no labor laws, no environmental laws, no public schools, no public anything, would be hellish for the majority of people, and they know they'd need a military and a draconian judicial system to protect them from the angry peasants.

For a glimpse at what a libertarian paradise would look like in real life, you need only look at conditions in places like Honduras: Unimaginable luxury for the rich, hopeless squalor for the majority.

[Sheepshank]

15. Ahhhh the great pretenders!!!

"Oh, wait, there are just two eensy-teensy exceptions to their eagerness to privatize everything: the military and the judicial system."

I know a couple of libertarians and this thread is a pretty darned accurate description of their political philosophy. The sentence above (quoted form one of the posts on this thread) sort of jumped out at me because I wonder who creates and enforces the laws they hope will not be an imposition on them, yet yeild the taxes to support the military? Oh, that would be the gov't. What an oxy-moranic situation! Personally I think they just like to piss and moan and deep down would be cautions of the captalistic anarchy that would prevail without some guidelines.

[Orangepeel]

19. in their fantasies, they are always in the group with "unimaginable luxury"

they seem to imagine themselves with all the benefits of public development/regulation they're accustomed to (e.g., roads, Internet access, a relatively uncontaminated food supply, clean water sources, etc.) without any restrictions on what they want to do in the future. It's all the OTHER people that will suffer to make their privatization dreams come true.

[Greyhound]

21. Sounds about right.

Spent last evening with a pair of them while visiting here in AZ.

Doctor/rich kid that spent the night alternately talking about how much all his stuff costs, how much he can bill insurance companies for his services, and whining that he is going to lose his house because it is only worth half what he paid for it.
:crazy:

Pharmacist that is trying to juggle a dozen mortgages now that the real estate market has tanked and crushed his dream of being a real estate mogul, but still makes money selling seminars to convince people that the real estate bubble will re-inflate any day now.
:crazy:

Neither pays their employees a dime more than they have to, and the doctor even tried to stiff our waitress until we embarrassed him into a decent tip.

Government has no obligation to take care of it's citizens but should maintain a militaristic police force to zealously defend their privilege, except for foreclosure on "their" properties. Yes, a large scale South America is what they envision for America, but pot should be legal...

Did you know that the Preamble is not part of the Constitution?
:crazy:

[conscious evolution]

10. Most libertarians are republicans in disguise

Sort of like how you could never find anyone willing to admit to being a nazi in 1946.

[JerseygirlCT]

11. No, it makes no sense

To me, most of them are a perfect example of putting ideology over sense, though.

[billyoc]

12. Selfish little pricks and potheads.

[WeDidIt]

13. A Libertarian is just a Republican who wants to smoke pot n/t

[backscatter712]

16. I used to be a libertarian.

Note the key words USED TO BE.

A lot of it comes from the Ayn Rand school of objectivism, aka enlightened selfishness. They'll say that Gordon Gekko was right when he said "Greed is good."

Except they never think it through far ahead enough.

What happens when you think totally selfishly? At first, you think, "Take what you want, who cares what others want?" That only gets you about a step ahead before you steal someone else's cookie, and everyone else punishes and ostracizes you. Then you evolve to form self-serving alliances with others, and in order for those alliances to work, you must give as well as take, in other words, you trade. But if you exploit, again, you run into ostracism and punishment. So add some rules for fair play.

Keep thinking along those lines, and your thought experiment runs a big circle all the way to that Social Contract that objectivists were originally bitching about. Throw in a few million years of evolution, and that social contract becomes internalized in our behavior biologically, and you figure out that things like "altruism" that objectivists like to bitch about, are again rational mechanisms evolved to help you get ahead, yes, through enlightened selfishness. That's because the best way to get ahead is to help others get ahead as well, so everyone mutually benefits.

The objectivists only take their arguments about half way. I took it a few steps further, which is why today I'm a liberal. And you know what, I really do not mind being altruistic.

[JayMusgrove]

22. Very insightful post. Thanks!

I wonder if other "used to be's" will eventually com around to realize that.

[sendero]

17. Libertarians..

... are the most delusional folks on the face of the planet, excepting maybe Communists.

As soon as I figure out someone is a Lib, I stop trying to have an intelligent conversation with them, it is simply not possible.

[alarimer]

18. I've always thought libertarianism was a morally bankrupt philosophy.

Very close to anarchy, actually.

It's all well and good to believe in personal freedom but there must be some means to protect those freedoms.

They also ignore the fact that we live in a society that depends on having some kind of rules to make things work. Of course there are a lot of stupid laws out there and law enforcement who overstep their bounds all the time but that doesn't mean the best answer is no law enforcement at all. That would be utter chaos.

I am a liberal because I believe in having a social safety net. Not everyone is capable of taking care of themselves. We also do not have a level playing field, so some people are born with advantages that other do not have. Public education simply attempts (though does not always succeed) to level the playing field.
I think our social safety net does not go far enough. We should be more like France or just about any European country. I do not believe that welfare discourages people from working. Maybe it does for some people but for most people, having dignified work is a matter of pride. Health care should be a right, not a fringe benefit of a job.

Libertarians are afraid of the government, when they should be afraid of corporations, who DO have too much power.

[Arkana]

20. Sounds like you're friends with a bunch of Paulites.

The cognitive dissonance with those people is just jarring in its starkness.

[Peacetrain]

23. Honestly, I went away from that dinner needing 2 aspirin and a glass of water

If you mean Paulites as in supporters of Ron Paul.. They were and are that to the max

[Arkana]

24. That's what I meant.

Paulites aren't so much libertarians as they are LOLbertarians.

Tell them to move to Libertopia on the blimp. If they're really Paulites they'll know what that means.