Shattering The Meat Myth: Humans Are Natural Vegetarians

[rug]

"There is no more authoritative source on anthropological issues than paleontologist Dr. Richard Leakey, who explains what anyone who has taken an introductory physiology course might have discerned intuitively--that humans are herbivores. Leakey notes that "you can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand.... We wouldn't have been able to deal with food source that required those large canines" (although we have teeth that are called "canines," they bear little resemblance to the canines of carnivores).
"In fact, our hands are perfect for grabbing and picking fruits and vegetables. Similarly, like the intestines of other herbivores, ours are very long (carnivores have short intestines so they can quickly get rid of all that rotting flesh they eat). We don't have sharp claws to seize and hold down prey. And most of us (hopefully) lack the instinct that would drive us to chase and then kill animals and devour their raw carcasses. Dr. Milton Mills builds on these points and offers dozens more in his essay, 'A Comparative Anatomy of Eating.'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/shattering-the-meat-myth_b_214390.html

[cherokeeprogressive]

1. I wonder what Dr. Leakey's opinion of binocular vision is, and why we have it n/t

[angstlessk]

7. we have binocular vision so that those carnivores WITH canines and sharp claws

didn't ... don't eat US! We need them while grazing...seems those with the sharpest vision are the prey and not the predator?

[cherokeeprogressive]

44. Um, okay.

"The positioning of the eyes on the head is important because it controls the animals 'field of vision'. Which is how much of the world it can see without moving its head. For humans this is about 180 degrees of a circle if measured laterally (from side to side) as it normally is. For a horse it is about 215 degrees. This means that horses and similarly designed animals can see more of the world at any given moment than a human or a cat. For a horse it is important to be able to see a predator before it gets close. It doesn't need to see it clearly just or to know exactly how close it is, just to know the minute it comes into vision. For carnivores, and omnivores (part-time predators) it is more important to be able to make accurate judgements concerning another animals distance and movement. To do this we need binocular vision. In other words we need to see the object with both eyes. This means the 'fields of vision' of both eyes have to overlap and thus the eyes have to be more to the front of the head. Inevitably this reduces our total field of vision, but it makes hunting possible."

http://www.earthlife.net/mammals/vision.html

"'Binocular' is to see with both eyes simultaneously. 'Stereoscopic' is to see things as 3-dimensional... Good binocular & stereoscopic vision is important for animals who are predators, e.g. hawks and lions. They have to accurately judge the distance to catch prey. Their eyes are set in front. Other animals, e.g. a rabbit (a common prey), has an eye on each of the two sides of its head. It has a wide overall visual field, which is good for detecting movements. But little overlapping of visual field results in poor stereoscopic vision."

http://library.thinkquest.org/28030/physio/stereo.htm

[angstlessk]

88. ya know, I know how we see, and we can guess how other animals see based on

recreation of the lenses in their eyes...but hell, if we had the speed and manurvability of a horse our eyes could be closer too! hell, if we had wings we might see like a fly...my point is that our binocular vision does not prove we are meat eaters, MOST mammals have binocular vision and MOST are herbivors.

[anigbrowl]

112. comprehension fail

What you are trying to say is that if we had the speed and maneuverability of a horse our eyes would be farther apart and more to the side of our heads. Herbivorous animals tend to have a wider field of vision and poorer resolution of distance and motion than carnivorous ones. This has nothing to do with the lenses in the eyes, but the position of those eyes on the head.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occam Bandage]

258. Horses don't have binocular vision.

Binocular vision is the use of two eyes for one field of vision. Prey animals like horses, rabbits, and deer all have eyes on opposite sides of their head, with very little overlap in their fields of vision. They are very poor at judging distances as a result, but can see predators coming from any direction.

Predator animals like wolves, cats, snakes, raptors, and humans have forward-facing eyes, with very little overlap in their fields of vision. We are very bad at seeing predators coming at us from the side or from the rear (for comparison, try sneaking up on a horse), but very good at figuring out how hard to throw a rock or spear to hit a target.

[Warpy]

75. No, prey animals generally have eyes on either side of the head

However, ours are dandy for spotting things like fruits and berries and being able to tell how far down the branch they are so we don't end up on our cans on the forest floor with broken bones.

Remember, mountain gorillas have similar faces and are completely vegetarian.

[joshcryer]

188. Mountain gorillas have a taste for flesh.

Some people tend to forget or just ignore this fact.

[Union Label]

201. No they're not vegetairian

Mountain Gorillas also eat meat just like us.

[Recursion]

236. All great apes eat flesh

Baboons, chimps, bonobos, gorillas. We all eat flesh.

[PatGund]

238. Incorrect

All the great apes (Gorillas, Chimps, Orangutangs, and humans) will eat meat when they can get it. There's too much evidence of their doing such in the wild to pretend they're "completely vegetarian"

As for the hominid record, there's too much evidence, (spear points, broken bones, etc) to believe we're "natural vegetarians" either. (Hell, I'm living proof of such, since I cannot process non-animal protein. I would die of protein deficincy if forced to be on a vegetarian diet)

[Occam Bandage]

256. Gorillas also eat meat.

I can't think of a single dedicated herbivore that has binocular vision.

[rug]

8. To avoid pirates.

[dorkulon]

15. AARRRRR!!!

:evilgrin:

[Dr.Phool]

130. Now, excuse me, while I perform an unnatural act on this steak!

:evilgrin:

[rrneck]

20. Calculate distance to jump from limb to limb?

But we can metabolize meat. So I eat it. But not too much.

[madeline_con]

92. That's what I read.

Chimps will hunt and eat a baboon occasionally, so I'm with a little protein intake, too.

[Sheepshank]

26. wrong location....moved

[bklyncowgirl]

181. Don't all primates have binocular vision?

There's a great variety of food choices among our primate relatives. Gorillas--vegetarian. Chimpanzees--omnivores. Orangutangs vegetarian (I think), Baboons--omnivores, Monkeys--vegetarian.

All have eyes on the front of their heads.

[PatGund]

240. Ummm....no...

Gorillas will eat meat when they can find it.

So do Chimps

So do Orangutangs

So do Baboons

Depending on the species of monkey, they will eat smaller animals or insects.

[Lerkfish]

2. even if true....so what?

I still savor a good steak.

[rug]

16. How long are your intestines?

[Lerkfish]

99. how big is your ass?

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

124. !!!!!!!

[cali]

143. lol!

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

233. Well....

:rofl:

[ananda]

3. Leakey is wrong.

Red meat, poultry, and fish are highly
beneficial.. even necessary.. for people
with hunter gatherer genes.

I'm one of them. I know that meat is very
good for me.

[rug]

12. Necessary may be putting it too strongly.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

98. Indeed he is, inserting his domga into his science

Humans are omnivores, and should eat accordingly

[yewberry]

105. Why do you think Leakey's "inserting his domga" into anything?

Are you assuming he's a vegetarian? Asserting that vegetarianism is by nature dogmatic, faith-based rather than informed by other concerns?

[cliffordu]

234. My shakra hunted down his dogma, killed it and cooked it slow in a

mesquite smoker

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

154. Not To Mention, He Completely Avoids The Far More Readily Agreeable FACT That Humans Can't Get All

the vitamins they need from vegetarianism as a whole. That is a far more convincing, readily provable, readily agreeable point of note that can be used in the argument, and one that shows far more powerfully that we are in fact omnivores, and any attempt at swearing otherwise is an exercise in utter ignorance.

What a tool.

[yewberry]

157. As ever, this is a lie.

As much as love the claim, it's simply not true. It is not a fact that humans can't get get all of the vitamins we need from a vegetarian diet.

I have been a vegetarian for over 20 years. I have no vitamin deficiencies, and yes, I am certain of that. You may be an omnivore; I am not. Therefore, unless you are willing to argue that I am not human, humans are not necessarily omnivores.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

159. No, It Is Not A Lie. It Is Fact.

All of the vitamins necessary for health are not READILY available in common edible vegetation. That's a basic vegetarian fact. Get a grip.

[yewberry]

161. "Humans Can't Get All the vitamins they need from vegetarianism as a whole"

Yes, that is a lie. Changing your lie when called on it doesn't make it true.

Don't bother "educating" me about vegetarian facts. I know a bit more than you do.

[flvegan]

162. That one? Not worth it.

He can prove it because all vegetarians are sickly, pathetic creatures due to their deficiencies, and that vegans just drop dead after 6 months.

No really, he knows everything.

About nothing.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[XemaSab]

205. One question:

How long do you think you could subsist in Florida on a gatherer diet, with no agricultural crops such as wheat, corn, soy, or other cereals or grown legumes? Oh, and no cooking or other processing either.

I'm not arguing the point that humans can or should be vegetarian, but the idea that that's our natural state? Doubtful.

[flvegan]

213. Are we talking modern times or the times of our ancestors?

[XemaSab]

219. Either one

But if it's modern times, you can't cook or use tools to process the food.

[flvegan]

220. If I had

my ancestors training, probably a good long time. Without it, at this stage, probably as long as it takes to starve to death. The list of crops one can grow in Florida is fairly long, and since I'd be tending to gardening 16 hours a day (as a gatherer) I could probably do fairly well. As is, roughly 35% of my diet is raw already.

[Ignis]

211. How can you even be posting? You should be dead by now!

:rofl:

[flvegan]

214. I feel myself fading as I type this.

[ZombieHorde]

167. Which "vitamins necessary for health are not READILY available in common edible vegetation"?

How available is "not READILY"?

[dorkulon]

173. Is it not true that vegans have to combine certain foods to get the right combination

of amino acids--or something like that? I'm asking. I have some vegan friends and have been told something along those lines.

[yewberry]

231. No, not really.

There used to be a belief that vegans and vegetarians had to eat foods in particular combinations (and you're right--it was thought to address amino acids) but that's been shown to be unnecessary.

[Critters2]

242. No, it's not true. If you eat a well-rounded veg*n diet, and eat enough

that you're not hungry, you are almost certain to get enough protein and amino acids.

[REP]

165. Wow, that explains why George Bernard Shaw died after 70 years of being a vegetarian

It wasn't the accident from pruning his tree - poor man starved to death!

And all those Buddhist monks - they've been doing it for centuries because they're not as smart as you, right?

[Yupster]

175. But Hitler was a vegetarian and he didn't

even make 60.

See.

[REP]

178. That's right - it gave him lead poisoning

[Critters2]

244. Hitler wasn't a vegetarian. His chef reported that his favorite

food was sausage. The kind made from dead animals. Goebbels created the "Hitler is a vegetarian" myth to give the impression that he was disciplined and healthy. He was neither.

[Yupster]

267. I don't think that is correct

It is more of a revisionist theory that has been argued recently. As of now, it is far from a historical fact.

Here's one website on the subject...

http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/

My own memories is reading biographies of many German generals and ministers who commented on Hitler's not only bland vegetarian diet, but the way he would insult their dinners while they ate it since it had meat in it.

[Orsino]

183. He's stupidly, crazily wrong...

...to ignore the stone tools and fire which for more than a million years gave us first what we needed to butcher meat, then later what we needed to become the top predator on the planet. We got where we are today by eating all the meat we could get.

The fact that agriculture has for ten thousand years allowed some of us to forego meat in favor of more humane calories is irrelevant. We are still supremely adapted for acquiring and consuming meat.

[Terran]

195. I've read a theory that hunting actually made humans intelligent

I'd have to go back and find the source, sorry I can't produce it at the moment, but the basics of it was that primitive hunting required increased hand-eye coordination, thus over time producing a larger brain. Prior to that, we were basically tree-dwellers, living indeed on a vegetarian diet and well-equipped physically to survive on that, but having little impetus to evolve in other directions. Climate change is also involved, as forests turned to plains, forcing us out of the trees and into the open to compete with carnivores.

All of which suggests to me that it's correct to an extent that our original model, as it were, evolved to survive on fruit and leaves, but I imagine nimble fingers of tree-dwelling primates could also pluck the occasional insect a snack as well. Is it true that gorillas would never do such a thing? Somehow I doubt it. I think it's silly to make what are essentially pro-vegetarian ideological assumptions about the human body; sure, our hands and limbs are handy for plucking fruit, but is that all they're good for, and what does that prove anyway?

[Orsino]

196. Yeah, or that it helped determine the sort of intelligence we developed.

Probably all sorts of synergies with our social nature and sex dichotomy. People had to struggle to survive, mostly, in Africa and in the other places to which they migrated. This meant getting all the calories they could, and meat, where it was available, was the most concentrated source of nutrition: worth the risks of hunting and scavenging, and paying off in leisure time as well as in full bellies, and thereby spurring on specialization and culture in large groups.

[Ignis]

207. So, you're a member of the genetic elite?

What exactly are the genetic markers for these "hunter-gatherer genes?" What percentage of the entire human species has them? Are they only found in certain "races?" Are those without these magic genes doomed to live short, unhappy lives after working as slaves for those with the superior "hunter-gatherer genes?"

:eyes:

And people wonder why we can't have real scientific discussions on DU.

[lunatica]

4. Yeah but we're built for scavenging just fine and that means meat.

So there. We can hunt carcass and probably did. Especially during the Ice Age when fruit wasn't so plentiful.

[Robb]

248. Indeed. Let's call it what it is.

We are garbage eaters. Uniquely adapted to eat whatever we come across. :D

[Tim01]

5. You mean like the eskimos? nt

[rug]

13. They settled the north thousands of years after the appearance of homo sapiens.

[conscious evolution]

6. Pass the popcorn

shrimp please.

[Ohio Joe]

9. With no wings, we should not fly either - nt

[rug]

18. We don't.

[Ohio Joe]

28. There is this neat invention...

It is called an "airplane". It lets us fly without actually having wings ourselves. You should look into it, a wonderful way to travel.

[rug]

35. Planes fly. Humans sit in them.

[anigbrowl]

113. No. Humans make planes that fly.

It's not like they occur in nature and we just hitch a ride on them (something that is true for other species, eg bird parasites). The construction and use of aeroplanes are about as unnatural as it gets.

[The Stranger]

160. Actually, rug is right.

Aeroplanes are not part of past evolution of the species.

The species did not evolve to have the ability to fly, only the ability to make things that fly.

Ergo, flight is not relevant to humans' physical traits vis-a-vis how they evolved.

[Touchdown]

176. Was tofu a part of humanity's past species evolution?

Boca Burgers?
Bread?
Cereal?
Soy juice (I refuse to call it milk)?
Rice Chex?

[L0oniX]

10. Why do you hate cannibals?

[Ikonoklast]

83. He doesn't *hate* cannibals.

It's just that he finds them a tad gamey.

[tocqueville]

11. we lack enzymes to break down cellulose

explain that Leakey

[angstlessk]

14. I say the length of our intestines is the biggest clue..since meat DOES putrify

as we SLOWLY digest it. In animals who naturally eat meat theirs is shorter...hence your dog needs to poop one hour after eating, whereas we take up to 24 or more hours to digest the same meal!

On edit: I am not a vegitarian..I had steak last night, but I still think we are not meant to eat it.

[panader0]

19. "There's corn in my caca!!" -My son at age 4

[TahitiNut]

23. Well, somebody ought to let the snakes know.

:eyes:

[thecrow]

33. Dry dog food is mostly cereal....

and my dogs are healthy

[angstlessk]

55. I am not saying cereal is bad for dogs, I am saying humans are not designed to digest meat

not that we cannot, or that we should not eat meat..it takes longer to digest, we get fatter by eating it, even lean meat (for the same protien and calories from legumes), not fish..I think fish is okay, since we ALL come from the sea. I am not against eating meat, I am simply saying we ain't built perfectly to eat same.

[sandspur]

197. Dogs are also omnivores

and a lot of the gains are filler that are not digested.

[Sheepshank]

41. it's been my unfortunate experience...

....that my vegetarian roomie had more profuse and stinky farts than I did. Does that have anything to do with anything?

[angstlessk]

49. I don't think the smell of a fart is an indication of putrid meat or lack thereof

cabbage smells the same going in and comming our, which is why some people hate the smell of cabbage cooking. I myself love cabbage, both when it is cooking, when I am eating it...well never mind!

[Dr.Phool]

133. And, don't forget beans.

Or oatmeal.

And always remember that habanero's are just as hot coming out, as going in. But, they're great with beans!

[Marr]

53. Your dog is not excreting the meal he ate one hour ago.

He's excreting a previous meal, partially to make room for the new one he just fed into the system. Same thing you do.

Herbivores cannot eat meat. They can't digest it. It requires certain enzymes to do it, so if your system *can* digest meat, you're either an omnivore or a carnivore.

People who insist we're not meant to eat meat should take a long surival trip in the wilderness, and avoid eating their packaged foods. I did a month long survival class/trip like that about 8 years ago, and I can tell you without a doubt that we all would've starved to death if we couldn't eat fish, rabbit, insects, etc. I was often surrounded by plant life that was just inedible for a human. Certain herbivores would've been fine, but a human would need to find some prey, and keep an eye out for the plants they he/she *could* eat.

[angstlessk]

61. tell me, did you catch the prey with your hands? did you render it with your claws and teeth? did

you eat it raw? did you eat the entire animal, inside and out? or did you use tools, skin and cook it? does not sound like a meat eater to me...sounds like someone who adapted to eating meat once an easy and safe way to injest it became avaiable to them....like I said I am not against eating meat, I am saying we could live a long healthy life and never consume meat, the same could not be said sans anything BUT meat.

[Marr]

69. That has absolutely nothing to do with it.

For the record, I caught things with simple materials, like string, a stick, or yes-- bare hands in the case of insects and crawdads.

All very very old techniques. People have been hunting small prey with the methods I refer to for at least 100,000 years. We evolved along with our brains-- no doubt the earliest humans used their intelligence to compensate for a lack of claws and fangs as well.

[charlie]

109. It's one thing thing to say meat is unnecessary

It's another to categorically claim we're herbivores like these guys do. We're some funny herbivores, with our inability to digest cellulose.

Let the Chinese enjoy a few decades of processed denuded carbs, sugars, and fried starches like we do and let's see how their general health fares then.

[cushla_machree]

153. No cultures or people in the world have ever been 100% vegetarians

Hard core vegetarians and vegans always like to compare humans to large game hunting carnivores like lions to show how we don’t have the same 'capabilities.' This is a ridiculous comparison. I may not be able to bring down a gazelle but i can catch frogs and fish.

Gorillas are folivores; they have huge vats for stomachs, spend 30% of their day eating, eat insects (lowland gorillas) and a male can consume 40 pounds of food a day. They also eat their own shit to send it through again. So no, i don't think we are anything like gorillas.

Humans don't need to use claws or teeth to catch 'prey' because we developed something called 'tools.' Our closest relative, the chimp, consumes meat on occasion.

Herbivores have a variety of specialized digestive organs which can break down cellulose, which humans cannot. Cows and other ruminants have a stomach with four chambers. Animals like rabbits have an enlarged cecum (appendix, anyone?). If you want to say we are plant eaters, start finding the ways that our digestive system matches theirs.

I say the length of our intestines is the biggest clue..since meat DOES putrify

Where do you get this from? We have a fairly simple digestive system similar to carnivores:

the human small intestine, at 23 feet, is a little under eight times body length (assuming a mouth-to-anus "body length" of three feet). This is about midway between cats (three times body length), dogs (3-1/2 times), and other well-known meat eaters on the one hand and plant eaters such as cattle (20 to 1) and horses (12 to 1) on the other

There is also the question on the energetic requirements of developing a large ratio of brain to body size. Many people believe the increased consumption of meat was the driving force behind this.

Where did humans evolve? The open grassland. The most interesting theory i have come across:

With the relatively poor macronutrient density of wild plant foods, particularly in the open grassland areas, the obvious solution for our ancestors was to include increasingly large amounts of animal-derived food in the diet. (5) The increasing consumption of meat, rich in protein and fats (particularly unsaturated forms), would provide a basis for the threefold increase in human brain size in the last 4.5 million years, from the perspective of both energy supply (25) and brain fatty acid substrate availability.

This article can be found here:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-33032987_ITM

KEY POINTS

* Human ancestral diets changed substantially approximately four to five million years ago with major climatic changes creating open grassland environments.

* We developed a larger brain balanced by a smaller, simpler gastrointestinal tract requiring higher-quality foods based around meat protein and fat.

* Anthropological evidence from cranio-dental features and fossil stable isotope analysis indicates a growing reliance on meat consumption during human evolution.

* Study of hunter-gatherer societies in recent times shows an extreme reliance on hunted and fished animal foods for survival.

* Optimal foraging theory shows that wild plant foods in general give an inadequate energy return for survival, whereas the top-ranking food items for energy return are large hunted animals.

* Numerous evolutionary adaptations in humans indicate high reliance on meat consumption, including poor taurine production, lack of ability to chain elongate plant fatty acids and the co-evolution of parasites related to dietary meat.

[Critters2]

245. So, Jains are not people? nt

[cushla_machree]

268. Maybe as a modern culture

I was under the impression that their diet was religiously-motivated, as well as being something developed in the last 1,000 years.

I am referring more towards there is no humans out there that have evolved solely on a vegetarian diet. I think choosing not to eat meat is different.

[bertman]

134. The only time I have ever taken 24 or more hours to digest and eliminate a meal is when

I was on a codeine-based painkiller after surgery. Eight to ten hours max for this omnivore. And I'm regular as a swiss watch.

Just thought you'd like to know, angstlessk.

[jmowreader]

148. I found this rather interesting...

http://www.chetday.com/genesis129digestive.htm

According to this article, the digestive tract of a human is five times the length of its body--a six-foot human has a 30-foot digestive tract. The digestive tract of a wolf is seven times its body length, and a sheep's is 27 times its body length. Shorter digestive tracts lend themselves to meat eating. (And about monkeys: a LOT of primates eat insects, and some eat meat. Chimps will actually hunt for meat animals.)

I think we're meant to eat anything we can get our hands on.

[kenny blankenship]

17. Exactly. That's why we have four stomachs.

and that's why first person shooter video games which simulate hunt and kill behavior are such a marginal, tiny sub-category of electronic media culture.

Silly stuff. Our closest genetic and morphological relative is the chimpanzee, which like humans eats both plants and animals.

[rug]

21. Obesity has become a national concern.

[Marr]

72. What is this, Non-Sequitur Theater?

[rug]

74. No, we are discussing prunes.

[Ignis]

208. "Eats both" != eats both equally

You're being rather disingenuous when you say that the chimp eats both plants and meat. It's rare for chimps to reach a diet of over 5-10% meat in the wild. That's ludicrously plant-based in comparison to the SAD.

[kenny blankenship]

225. What's disingenuous is you saying I claimed chimps eat plants and meat equally

I neither said it nor implied it.

First you allege it's disingenuous to say chimps eat meat, then you admit that they do.

When you stop contradicting yourself and throwing around wild accusations of dishonesty maybe you can have grown up discussions with other people.

You know, a little more meat in your diet might help those cognitive & behavioral problems. Just sayin'.

[Ignis]

228. Does that mean meat-eating is responsible for your ad hominems?

You can't attack the argument, but rather only the man, yet I have behavioral problems?

Yeah, that makes sense.

I'll leave you to your tantrum now. Have fun! :hi:

---

EDIT:

Not that you deserve a reasoned response, but here's the quote in your original post that just possibly might lead someone to think you're comparing the ratio of meat-to-caloric-intake of human and chimp diets:

which like humans eats both plants and animals

If you don't want people to misread your pulled-out-of-your-ass statistics, perhaps you should do a better job of providing supporting evidence. Cows, despite the fact that they are herbivores, sometimes eat insects that are on grass. Does this mean that cows, like humans, also eat plants and animals? :rofl:

I look forward to another personal attack in response. Go with what you know!

[Ignis]

243. I do have to thank you for one thing, Kenny.

I've learned over the past two weeks that it's acceptable to call other DUers Nazis, as well as to say that their dietary or lifestyle choices have resulted in brain damage or sociopathy.

I'm quite sure the current crop of mods wouldn't be callous enough to only allow vegan DUers to be subjected to this sort of abuse, so I'll be sure to apply these same standards to all DUers.

Thanks for the eye-opener! :hi:

[panader0]

22. Check Genesis 1:29

That verse was used by my ex (a vegetarian) to prove people shouldn't eat meat. I went back to bacon and steak after the divorce.

[sarcasmo]

266. Because what ever is said in the bible must be true.

[Yupster]

269. In talking to Adam and Eve, God

gives them plants to eat and then animals to have dominion over, but then later

during the exodus, he provides birds to eat.

A rather confused story.

[ThomWV]

24. Absurd. Know how to tell if we were meant to eat meat or not? Watch what we do.

You could not get a cow to eat bucket of fried chicken any more than you could get a lion to eat a salad. If you want to know what a creature 'was meant to eat' just watch what it does eat. Everywhere you find men where there is meat to be had they eat it along with plants. They aren't doing it to defy their parents and they are not doing it because they are otherwise starving to death, they are doing it because we are omnivores.

[rug]

25. There's also money to be made in it.

Commodification frequently alters human behavior.

[dorkulon]

42. There's money to be made in produce too, you know.

Not everything is a conspiracy. You can't convince people to like food that they don't like. The demand for meat long preexisted factory ranches.

[ThomWV]

47. Nonsense - we were eating meat long before George showed up on the dollar bill

And I mean so far back in the past that neither money or even trade would be imagined for thousands and thousands of years. Men did not kill mammoths to sell the meat or hides nor did they kill them to trade for other worthwhile objects.

Sorry, try again.

[rug]

54. The earliest killings were over hunting grounds.

The leaders received the first and the choicest cuts.

Meat is the earliest commodity of social control.

[Marr]

62. That is silly. You have no way of knowing that.

Any other "facts" you'd like to pull out of your long digestive tract?

[rug]

66. Why yes. Here's one.

I mean so far back in the past that neither money or even trade would be imagined for thousands and thousands of years. Men did not kill mammoths to sell the meat or hides nor did they kill them to trade for other worthwhile objects.

[Marr]

78. Haha-- wait a minute.

Are you telling me that your statement was correct because when you said, "the earliest killings were over hunting grounds", you were referring to the *animals*? That is almost a tautology.

You were clearly implying that the earliest human/human killings were over hunting grounds. C'mon.

[kenny blankenship]

110. Rug saw 2001

Thought it was a documentary.

[gmudem]

127. Sidenote-

That is an incredible screen shot. I am definitely saving that.

And of course humans are made to eat meat, prehistoric humans were certainly eating more than just plants.

[redqueen]

198. *roffle*

[anigbrowl]

116. And seeing how animals such as lions, wolves etc. exhibit the same behavior...

I'd say that that's an argument for meat-eating being natural to us. Biggest/strongest/fittest group member gets first dibs on tastiest portions is pretty much the norm in nature.

[dorkulon]

135. How is this not an admission that early humans ate meat?

Doesn't what you just said contradict the OP?

[Critters2]

247. Wrong. The earliest killings were mimetic rivalries.

May have been over hunting grounds, may have been over some other shared desire. The shared desire is the issue, not the specific object of desire. I'm just home from a 3-day seminar on mimetic violence, complete with the role of violence in the development of language, and the role of mirror neurons in creating a shared desire. I've just spent three days talking about "the foundational murder", with leading anthropologists. Not a word was said about hunting grounds.

[anigbrowl]

115. Meat: it's a conspiracy!

Yes, it's true! Meat producers have altered our entire history in order to persuade us to eat stuff we don't need or want. We were all happy vegetarians until the meat conspiracy got together and decided to create advertisements showing attractive people eating meat!

[dorkulon]

136. Amazing, right?

:tinfoilhat:

[Touchdown]

177. So food is an iPod now?

:crazy:

[Clintonista2]

179. What a ridiculous statement.

eom

[Catherine Vincent]

27. I agree

[Egalitariat]

29. Thank goodness for evolution. I can't imagine missing out on a good steak***

nm

[Egalitariat]

30. Thank goodness for evolution. I can't imagine missing out on a good steak***

nm

[Marr]

31. Carnivores don't have short intestines so they can, "quickly

get rid of the rotting flesh they eat". What a ludicrous and transparently biased way of putting it.

Carnivores have shorter intestinal tracts because they don't *need* any more than that. Meat is easy to digest, in comparison to the roughage that real herbivores eat. And yet herbivores cannot digest meat because they haven't the enzymes to do it. Humans do have those enzymes, and an intestinal tract that's somewhere in between a full carnivore's and an herbivore's.

We're omnivores. That's been one of our greatest strengths, from an evolutionary perspective, and it's why humans are found in nearly every corner of the globe.

[Statistical]

104. +1 Suprised it took 30 posts before someone caught that.

Meat eaters, animals that exclusively eat meat have no need for a long intestine.

Omnivores do because their diet isn't EXCLUSIVELY meat.

As others have pointed out our bodies lack the enzymes necessary to process most plants so we are limited in the plant life we can eat. Someone trying to survive on plants only without the aid of modern science (grocery stores, processed foods, etc) would be very weak. Meat has higher density of energy than plant material does. As most herbivores do we would spend 99% of our life attempting to eat enough calories to avoid starvation.

Saying we aren't suppose to eat meat is just as stupid as saying we aren't suppose to east anything BUT meat.

[ForrestGump]

117. Exactly

I couldn't believe that blatantly spurious observation.


If you want to shun meat, fine (I'm not heavily invested in carnivory...for long periods of time I've been functionally a vegetarian, at least 'til I secured some BBQ chicken or a turkey sandwich), but don't pretend it's 'natural.' Do it right -- and that's a whole other story -- and, yeah, the benefits to many probably are considerable, especially in a society where meat and associated products are consumed in excess and the raw materials are increasingly tampered with. Vegetarianism has a lot of potential advantages, I think, as does limiting your intake of meat and other animal products if you don't choose that path, but it is not and has never been our natural state and is at odds with our inherent physiology (as, I hasten to add, are many other things we do today, like eat Twinkies).

But don't pretend it's humankind's natural state, to be a herbivore. All else aside -- gut, dentition, and so on -- it comes down to humans' inability to break down beta glycosidic bonds.

[nichomachus]

122. Didn't you read the post above?

Humans are found in every corner of the globe because they built airplanes and sat in them.

[saltpoint]

191. If Jimmy Buffett is lurking on DU and reading this thread, he's going to

be totally bummed out.

Maybe even offended.

I've already asserted this point, but if we assail humans' omnivore characteristics, we run the risk of alienating people like Jimmy Buffett.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq69l32DCKs


I for one don't want that on my conscience.

[scheming daemons]

199. The OP and other "Vegan extremists" on this thread will never respond to you

[Ignis]

209. Why don't you call out the "vegan extremists," then?

Perhaps then you could spell out the difference between a "vegan" and a "vegan extremist." Those of us who eat a vegan diet, yet don't proselytize, would like to know your diligently researched and carefully constructed categorization of us.

Since, you know, you're the guy who gets to decide all that. :eyes:

[Sheepshank]

32. without the advent of green house farming and more importantly transportation....

...homo sapien diets would have been so limited as to have been unhealthy. Not saying they couldn't survive, but a rich, varied diet to provide all essential nutritients would not have been available. Even now, vegans are constantly touting the newest and latest substitute for animal proteins. Not something they knew about "back then". I wonder what those during the Ice Age did for sustenance?

[dorkulon]

34. Doesn't meat provide a combination of amino acids that we require?

I had always heard this, and that vegans have to eat certain foods in combination to compensate. It seems unlikely that early man would be eating such foods in combination.

Secondly, our teeth and the length of our intestines only indicates that we ate vegetables, not that we ate them exclusively. As to ripping through hide and tearing flesh, humans have long overcome our shortcomings via tool use. And as someone posted upthread, some argue we were scavengers more than hunters.

Finally, I'd say the best proof that early humans ate meat is that we eat meat. Vegetarianism is something that many of us have chosen for various reasons, but it would be foolish to deny that humans like meat, that they crave it. Cows don't like meat.

[rug]

38. Mad cow disease involves putting meat byproducts into cattle feed.

[AllieB]

43. Some of us are lucky enough to eat grass-fed beef.

I'm happy to support small farms and organic agriculture here in my home state.

[dorkulon]

48. I think the right policy regarding this is to ban any other kind.

Grass-fed may be more expensive, but it should be anyway. We weren't meant to eat red meat every day, anyhow.

[dorkulon]

45. I'm aware of MBM

but that's just mixed into the feed. It's a twisted practice, but it doesn't mean cows like meat. My cats wouldn't eat corn, but there's probably corn in their cat food. My point is that you could put a cow in a room full of chicken breasts and pork chops and they'll starve before eating any of it.

[AllieB]

50. It's best to try to feed your cats grain-free food.

They were never meant to eat corn and grains, since they're pure carnivores. There are lots of good brands out there now. :-)

[dorkulon]

93. I know, I'm just poor.

I tried feeding them some raw chicken for a while but they wouldn't touch the stuff. Considering I found them starving in an abandoned house, I'm doing all right by them I think.

[AllieB]

97. I think you are too. Thank you for rescuing them.

:hug:

I sometimes feed my kitties gizzards and liver that I pick up from the butcher (free or very cheap). They love it.

[dorkulon]

120. Thanks

I'll try that!

[uppityperson]

126. One of my cats loves asparagus, corn, melon, broccoli

She also likes shrimp and other seafood. Maybe she's actually a tuna (sea kitten) with fur?

[dorkulon]

132. Well, I wasn't accounting for eccentric tastes

One of my cats likes potato chips and, come to think of it, corn chips (she really just licks them though). Never veggies, though they both eat grass when they're outside.

[Kitty Herder]

185. No.

Some people used to think so, but it's not true. As long as you eat a variety of foods, you get all the amino acids you need. If you eat one thing only, like rice, for a long time, you may end up deficient in some amino acid.

[Mari333]

36. hey I started this OP last week and got moved to the health forums

good luck lolol

[rug]

40. The mods on duty today don't have binocular vision.

[AllieB]

37. The problem is that there's all these so-called authorities running around

telling us what we should be eating. Dr. Leakey's research is not in line with basic anthropological truths. The earliest known hunting instruments are 60-100,000 years old.

The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine is a vegetarian activist group. Anyone can cherry-pick data and prove anything. See Ancel Keyes and the lipid hypothsis as an example of this.

We've been eating meat for many more years than we've been farming. If you want to be a vegetarian, more power to you. I do not thrive on a vegetarian diet-I had 10 years experience trying. There are many people like me, of Northern European descent, who have celiac disease and allergies to things like soy and legumes. There is a genetic component to this, as farming came later to Northern Europe.

[Fovea]

39. Omnivore -- use and rats, bears, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore

Two words-- false dichotomy.

[Marr]

59. Exactly. If a person has to use such rhetorical deception to make their point,

it says something about their point.

[Turbineguy]

46. Dr. Leakey

should stick to boat building.

Speaking as somebody who ate a nice ribeye steak last night.

[chrisa]

51. Humans were scavengers and nomads.

Wasn't this "meat just rots in our stomachs" debunked years ago?

[Liberal Veteran]

70. Apparently, rotting meat sticks to our colon walls like spackle or paste.

Which is why we Evercleansavores.

[JCMach1]

52. What part of OMNIVORE don't these people get?

[BlooInBloo]

57. Militant evangelizing veggie freaks just can't stand the idea of other ppl being different.

[rug]

68. Militant evangelizing veggie freaks are worse than Republicans.

[angstlessk]

79. Ya know, you can be wrong..I am sure that is anathema to you

I have read about meat eating vs vegan eating...like I stated earlier I had steak for dinner last night, but I do believe we are not natural meat eaters. We eat for the convience..it give us more protien with fewer calories expended..ie gathering legumes etc. But we are NOT natural meat eaters...we could survive very easily without meat, but not very well on JUST meat..espcially if we had to hunt, capture, rend and eat without fire!

[AllieB]

89. What about those cave paintings depicting hunting?

We are natural meat eaters, and it goes back hundreds of thousands of years before the advent of agriculture. Anthropological evidence supports this.

You can eat meat raw-and fish. Carpaccio, steak tartare, sushi, etc. It just tastes better cooked.

[angstlessk]

91. I said...,we can easily exist without meat, but not the other way around

hell, don't deny me my monthly ration of t-bone...(chicken and eggs the rest of the month) I am just agreeing that we are not built as meat eaters, not that we are not capable of enjoying it. I could be a vegetarian if I had the cash to hire a vegetarian shopper and cook! Other than that, I was raised on meat and potatoes, and remain to this day an omnivore.

On Edit: I said 'easily'..not easy at all, very inconvienient..I meant body wise.

[kenny blankenship]

138. They were just following the animals to good grazing grounds - that's all the cave paintings show

Those sticks in their hands were pointed not as killing instruments but in order to point out which direction the animals were heading, as a direction to slower moving members of the group who were following behind.

You meat eaters sure do stretch things to fit your ideology!

[dorkulon]

174. That's quite a tale

Do you have anything to back it up, or is it just something you thought of?

[woo me with science]

190. They weren't hunting.

They were playing fetch with the spears.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

155. I Don't Know. It Makes Me Wonder If Vegetarianism Makes One Stupid Or Something...

:yoiks:

[billyoc]

56. You can't WELD with your bare hands either.

That is some idiotic shit right there. :eyes:

[rug]

60. Maybe you can't.

[TankLV]

67. Speak for yourself...

okay, maybe not my hands, but sometimes when I have gas, I swear I've fused metal...

sure beats that "walnut" trick with muscle butts...

[stray cat]

58. We can't live on grass or even digest it - we may chew tobacco but not cud

[symbolman]

63. Man made Fire and Fire made Man

The latest thinking is that once we discovered fire we ate better, one of the first technological feat that allowed us to eat meat, store it, digest it, etc

The scientist promulgating this says that most people end up sick and malnourished on an exclusive veg diet..

We obviously have canines and incisors for use as omnivores, and the ability to digest all these things gave us a leg up.. We may have smaller mantibles because of Fire, not vegetables.

Hands also manipulate Tools, should we eat wrenches too?

I'll stick with the fire theory, AND eat Less meat :)

[Marr]

119. I read a very interesting piece a few years ago by a biologist-

can't recall his name off the top of my head, unfortunately. He had an idea to describe some of the later physical changes you see in humans-- the smaller mandible being one of them.

He compared later human development to what was seen on fox farms in the last decade or so. Breeders decided to domesticate foxes to harvest their fur, and were surprised to find that the furs were mostly unusable within just a few generations.

What was happening was that they were breeding for docility, and found that there are unexpected physical characteristics tied to docility. You breed a friedlier fox, and in just a few generations you have a fox with mottled fur, like a dog, and floppy ears. Juvenile characteristics.

Anyway, this biologist was suggesting that the same may have happened in humans. As people began to occupy larger and larger communities, cooperation became more and more essential, and we naturally "bred" a more domesticated version of ourselves. Juvenile characteristics came along with the behavioral change, and so away went the pronounced brow ridge, the large mandible, etc.

[uppityperson]

128. I've a friend working on that research now

except they are using voles. Friend said that when things get domesticated, by being more tolerant of humans, they become more juvenile physiologically.

Friend is involved with dissecting after they are killed, to examine physiological changes.

Found out something interesting about voles that they can't find other research done on. Voles have patterned skin. Some are striped, some blotchy. They're not sure if the difference is also related to behavior.

[Marr]

203. Very interesting stuff. I think it makes sense that the same principle

would apply to humans breeding more docile versions of themselves, as well.

[kitty1]

64. 1 Timothy 4 vs 1-4 makes a valid statement on this..

1 Tim 4:1-4 KJV) "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:"

Also Genesis 9 vs 1-3 which was mentioned already
Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, now I give you everything."

lastly Romans 14:2-3, "One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The mans who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted
him."

I think the last quote says it all. Obviously at some point in the history of mankind thousands of years ago perhaps, people decided that wild venison might be a little more delectable than a constant diet of dseeds and elderberries and the rest is history.
Neither vegan or meat eating is wrong or abnormal. It's just an individual choice.
Obviously, it's all about balance. Too much red meat can shorten your life.

[rug]

71. Are you a militant evangelizing carnivore freak?

[kitty1]

85. militant carnivore freak; can you put that on a t-shirt for me n/t

[rug]

142. Blooinbloo copyrighted it in #57.

[uppityperson]

129. omnivore. nt

[Sheepshank]

86. Vegans who use the bible

to support their stance on meatless diets have been shown there is opposing opinions in the good book. Just as those who use the bible to deny gay marriage, there are just as many opposing thoughts. The book as it turns out, is just trying to cater to everyone and the bully's interpretation wins.

[Buzz Clik]

65. Yeah, well, we adapt. I'll have mine medium rare.

[Matariki]

73. Coconut Macaroon Recipe

Coconut Macaroons

4 large (120 grams) egg whites, at room temperature
1 cup (200 grams) granulated white sugar
1/4 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract
1/2 cup (60 grams) cake flour, sifted
3 cups (300 grams) sweetened shredded

In a stainless steel bowl, placed over a saucepan of simmering water, whisk together the egg whites, sugar, and salt. When this mixture is warm to the touch, and nice and creamy, remove from heat and stir in the vanilla extract, flour, and coconut. Cover and refrigerate for about one hour, or until firm.

Preheat oven to 325 degrees F (170 degrees C) and line two baking sheets with parchment paper.

Place small mounds (about 1 tablespoon) of the batter on the parchment-lined baking sheet, spacing several inches apart. Bake for about 15 to 20 minutes or until golden brown. Remove from oven and let cool on the baking sheet for about 10 minutes and then place on a wire rack to cool.

Makes about 2 dozen Macaroons.

[rug]

77. Do not turn this into a flame war over the use of egg whites.

Nice try.

:eyes:

[Matariki]

81. Strawman!!!

:rofl:

[Greyhound]

76. Weak scavengers, fruits and veggies primarily, meat if/when available.

We're just slow, weak, bald monkeys, poorly equipped to survive and saved from extinction because we can talk and eat just about anything.

And let's not forget the dogs, without them we probably wouldn't have made it either.

[Mythsaje]

82. I've been saying that about dogs for years...

We definitely owe them more than we've given them as a whole, that's for sure.

[woo me with science]

193. Dogs are high in protein.

http://www.joeyskaggs.com/html/doghook/dogltr.pdf

[Marr]

204. I wouldn't say that at all.

I think, at our core, we're a kind of semi-aquatic ape. On tropical shorelines, life for a human is incredibly easy.

Our heartbeat naturally slows when we put our face in the water-- unlike all other primates. We can swim and dive-- unlike any other primate. And of course, we're nearly hairless and have a thin layer of subcutaneous fat, unlike any other primate. A rich diet is very easily obtained for a creature with hands and the ability to move in water. Mollusks, fish... the fruit further in shore, of course. There's a reason people often refer to a tropical island as a "paradise". For our bodies, it is.

We're particularly well equipped for living in those settings, though we're flexible and intelligent enough to make a go of it just about anywhere. I think humans are pretty amazing creatures, personally.

[semillama]

222. Not this aquatic ape stuff again...

It's a nice just-so story, but doesn't hold water (couldn't resist the pun). Swimming primates exist - orang utans are one example. Also see the Japanese Macaques who love to hot tub... In terms of diving, we're actually relatively bad at it, since we have the horrible tendency to experience irregular cardiac rhythms while holding our breath - something that doesn't occur in truly aquatic mammals.

That being said, we are rather well adapted to living near the shore, but no more so than we are in savannahs, forests and other resource-rich environments.

People interested in a logical examination of the aquatic ape hypothesis will find this website informative:
http://www.aquaticape.org/

and more specifically, this page: http://www.aquaticape.org/aatclaims.html
It's a pretty comprehensive examination of the hypothesis and why it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Examples:

"Claim: Human hairlessness is explained by an aquatic past

Fact: Humans' relative hairlessness is unlike aquatic mammals, because A) most aquatic mammals aren't hairless; and B) those few that are have skin that's radically different from humans (there's a link for this in the seal skin and sweat section below). "

"Claim: Human fat quantity and distribution is like that of aquatic mammals; it is adapted for insulation and swimming in an aquatic environment. Humans have subcutaneous fat which is bonded to the skin rather than anchored within the body, unlike non-aquatic mammals.

Fact: Human fat characteristics show no sign of any aquatic adaptation, and are radically different from the aquatic mammals AAT/H proponents say we resemble. Human fat deposits are anchored to underlying depots, just as those of all mammals are. Human fat deposits are found in the same places, and are anchored the same way, as those of other primates. "

[Marr]

230. Hmm- thanks for the links.

I always thought it was a good proposition. I never thought it implied a real "aquatic" origin, so much as a particular suitability to life on shorelines. But if that's incorrect I'd like to know. I'll read through it. Thanks again.

*edit*- Wow, what do you know? Apparently all the points I found convincing aren't true at all. I remember hearing this for the first time about 10 years ago (from a biology teacher, no less), and thinking it sounded pretty convincing. Live and learn... or live and unlearn... whatever. :D

[semillama]

232. Yay science, right?

It is an interesting idea, and would make for a GREAT science fiction story about alternate biology - what would human life be like if we did in fact have aquatic origins?

Oh, wait, it's been done.

[Matariki]

80. Shattering the myth of Gravity

and other easily observable facts

[Vickers]

84. "you can't tear flesh by hand"

What are worms and amphibians and small fish made of?

:shrug:

[Celtic Merlin]

87. The species MAN is an OMNIVORE.

We are capable of eating and successfully digesting plants AND animals because we can and do eat both and have been doing so for millions of years.

The statement, "...carnivores have short intestines so they can quickly get rid of all that rotting flesh they eat" is just scientifically wrong.

"Meat Myth" my ass!

See you at the steakhouse...

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[Peacetrain]

90. I am basically a vegetarian, because that is what I like...

Meat, flesh and I do not get along digestively (is there such a word? ).. It is purely a dietary choice out of what I personally prefer on my plate.

For the most part, I think humans are omnivores. The reason for that is that our closet relatives are omnivores.

[Iggo]

94. Damn. If only we hadn't discovered how to make fire.

Damn the luck!

[cagesoulman]

95. Humans are naturally beer drinkers. Everything else is optional.

:evilgrin:

[Buns_of_Fire]

252. "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

Who am I to tick off Ben Franklin? Or God?:beer:

[geek_sabre]

96. BS. nt

[Canuckistanian]

100. But a drumstick fits neatly into your hand

Therefore that theory is bunk.

[AllieB]

101. It's interesting- this thread hasn't devolved into the typical pro-/anti-vegetarian clusterf***

"Mmm, steak good" and sanctimony and pseudo-science by vegans/vegetarians.

[Posteritatis]

118. I dunno, it looks like it *started* with sanctimonious pseudoscience

That said, mmmm, steak good.

[leftofthedial]

102. we don't naturally smoke anything either

or wear clothes

or apologize after farting

[flvegan]

103. "Man the Hunted" by Sussman was the final slam dunk for me.

Far more convincing than random DUers with PhDs in Google Fu.

That said, people eat what they choose to based on their wants, beliefs and opinions. I'm not one to say they can't.

[Ignis]

210. No, no, that's not possible!

If you eat a vegan diet, you MUST force everyone around you to become a vegetarian as well!

It's a secret vegan law, apparently. You'd think, being vegan, we'd know about it. But apparently, it's a secret vegan law that is known only by non-vegans.

Things that make you go "Hmmmmmmmm."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Hmm, and what are the some of the main remains found in caves?

Animal bones bearing marks of having been butchered with stone axes and knives.

What are the main archeological remnants of prehistoric Japan?

Garbage dumps full of pottery... and mollusk shells and fish bones.

I don't care what people eat, but our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, are omnivores, as Jane Goodall discovered 40 years ago.

Furthermore, if you look at pre-agricultural ethnic groups world wide, I doubt that you'd find even ONE that's vegetarian. If anyone can find a pre-agricultural group that's vegan or even vegetarian, I'll eat my words, but I doubt that you can. Their societies are called hunter-gatherer for a reason.

Furthermore, if you look at pre-industrial cultures around the world today, people are vegetarian for two reasons and two reasons only: religious restrictions (Hinduism, Jainism, some Buddhists) or extreme poverty. Even people who are too poor to eat meat on a regular basis will splurge on it for holidays or celebrations (Chinese peasants).

If you have ethical or health reasons for being vegetarian or vegan, no problem here. Eat what you want. Eat what makes you feel good, physically and ethically. But don't give bullshit reasons for it. Just say, "I'm vegetarian for my health" or "I'm vegetarian because I don't believe in killing animals."

[dorkulon]

125. +1

:headbang:

[rug]

141. Fruitcake.

And where did I say what I eat?

[Buns_of_Fire]

255. My guess is: saber-toothed pineapples.

[alfredo]

107. Look at the jungle tribes and you will see they eat mostly

fruits, vegetables, insects and on occasion, meat.

Humans are nutritional opportunist. If fruits and berries are plentiful, that's what they eat. If meat is plentiful, that's what they eat. What it comes down to: it's easier to catch a tuber than an antelope. A dead antelope stored in a tree by a jaguar is easier to obtain than killing a live one, though that can be risky. Chasing off scavengers after the lions are full is easier than hunting and killing prey.

But most of all, digging tubers and collecting melons is much easier than hunting or stealing game.

[NutmegYankee]

108. We lost track of evolution I see...

As we got smarter and started using tools and fire, we didn't need to have large claws or huge teeth and jaws. *sigh* Notice how native cultures across the earth hunt down prey and eat them using tools. What a dumbass!

[handmade34]

111. moot point

it really is nonsense to try to figure if we are 'natural' meat eaters. There is not much 'natural' in the world anymore. We purport to be intelligent beings. The point of this discussion should be about eating meat from factory farms in the 21st being extremely unhealthy and seriously detrimental to the environment (the environment that all of us live in). I have eaten meat but I do not now. I know people will eat meat and if you do, I would much rather you eat meat raised locally, organically and with conscientiousness. To justify your callous meat consumption by merely defending it on the grounds that I like my steak or this is the way we've always done it, is childish and irrational; much the same way fundamentalist Christians defend their faith because "its secure to me and we've always done it this way", *or any of a number of excuses that people use to justify out-dated practices.

I appreciate that people enjoy eating a good steak- one of my favorite meals ever was my organically raised filet migon wrapped in my home smoked bacon... I get it, but its time to think about the bigger picture.

[MichaelHarris]

114. A cow's

not that hard to catch.

[Hekate]

121. Omnivores: human beings will eat anything and everything. So do our closest relatives...

...the great apes. "Chimpanzees actively engage in hunting..." We are not exclusively one or the other, but in societies with a wide variety of available food we have the luxury to pick and choose, and among those choices is to decide that vegetarianism is more noble or more healthy.

Hekate

http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/esm/Stanford_99.html
The Hunting Apes:
Meat-eating, meat-sharing, and the roots of human social cognition
Abstract
Meat-eating is widely regarded by human evolutionary scholars as a central behavior in the emergence of humanity. Past paradigms (notably Man the Hunter of the 1960s) have attributed the rise of the human intellect to cognitive attributes needed for cooperative hunting. This model is widely discredited today. In this talk I argue that the evidence from great ape meat-eating behavior, from human forager data, and from the fossil record all point to the paramount importance of meat-eating, but especially meat-sharing , as the fundamental dietary/behavioral shift that placed a premium on social intelligence for the control and manipulative distribution of this key nutritional resource. Those who control key resources control others who need it; I argue that an important element of the evolution of patriarchal human societies has been the role of meat as such a controllable resource.

http://www.answers.com/topic/great-apes
Feeding ecology and diet
The foods that are eaten by the great apes generally include a wide variety of items such as fruits, assorted types of vegetation, bark, seeds, insects, and meat. >snip< While many different types of food may be consumed, gorillas have not been seen to eat meat. >snip< Bonobos ... eat a wide variety of non-plant foods, such as caterpillars, earthworms, and perhaps even shrimp found in shallow streams. Meat from prey such as squirrels and small antelopes is highly prized. These animals appear to be taken opportunistically rather than through active hunting. This limited food resource is not freely shared, and is likely to be dominated by adult females, who may totally exclude males when meat is being eaten. Although coveted, meat is estimated to make up a very small percentage of the normal diet for bonobos. >snip<
Among the great apes, chimpanzees utilize the widest variety of potential foods, made possible by the most diverse collection of behaviors related to food gathering, extraction, processing, and consumption for any species except humans. >snip< Chimpanzees actively engage in hunting, and eat a variety of animals such as bushpigs, small antelopes, and monkeys. Unlike the opportunistic meat-eating seen with other great apes, chimpanzees are known to coordinate their efforts and then share meat with other party members. The most commonly sought after prey are the arboreal colobus monkeys >snip<

[mike_c]

123. Leakey made a common mistake....

There is a LOT of meat that is available much more easily than he suggests, especially small animals like insects and mollusks. Small vertebrates that don't require extensive tool making to catch and consume. And whatnot.

Humans are omnivores. Just about every aspect of our digestive physiology is a compromise aimed at omnivory.

Think about it this way-- if we evolved as herbivores, as the OP suggests, we've done a TERRIBLE job of it. The overwhelming majority of plant tissues are either toxic or nutritionally inadequate. Most are both. Don't even THINK about grazing in fields or forests-- unless you're VERY careful, you'll poison yourself during he first day or so. Or you'll starve with a full stomach.

Regarding the comments about the intestine, note that the human cecum-- where many herbivores extend the digestion time of plant material and house specialist gut fauna-- is practically nonexistent. We're omnivores, plain and simple. Omnivory includes at least limited herbivory, so the OP is sort of correct as far as that goes.

on edit: in the interests of full disclosure, I'm not grinding an axe here-- I'm a facultative vegetarian!

[Touchdown]

145. And people say circumcision threads are too many.

Give it up! Eat your twigs and be happy.

Who would Jesus browbeat?

[ZombieHorde]

168. Money changers in the temple. nt

[Sheepshank]

131. thank god he's wrong!!!

"And most of us (hopefully) lack the instinct that would drive us to chase and then kill animals and devour their raw carcasses."

Wonder where the culture of Australia Aboriginals would be without their carcasses...although they may have evolved enough to cook some of their meat :sarcasm: . Although, they still like their wichita grubs alived and squirming :puke:

[WonderGrunion]

137. But I like meat.

Besides, our nearest genetic relatives, the apes, chimps and baboons occasionally get carnivorous. I'd say that's decent evidence that mankind wasn't a strict herbivore.

[csziggy]

139. Humans have been tool users for millions of years

Plenty of time to evolve from vegetarians to omnivores. And even the vegetarians ancestors of early human likely took advantage of various food sources as they found them. Chimpanzees have similar physical characteristics of early humans, but will eat meat and insects when given the opportunity. They even use tools to gain access to meat sourced protein.

Bears are usually omnivores, but pandas evolved into vegetarians in a very short amount of time, and not only gave up meat but evolved a reliance on a very restricted diet. Their teeth are still those of omnivores even though they rely on bamboo and have for quite a while.

I think Dr. Milton Miller is off base here.

[Swamp Rat]

140. Richard Leakey is wrong.

Pass the termite stick Nim Chimpsky. :9

http://www.honoluluzoo.org/enrichment_chimps_forage.htm

[sendero]

144. blah blah blah

.. what a load of bullshit.

[LisaL]

146. Yea we can't tear meat by hand. Maybe that's why we make tools.

:rofl:

[Sheepshank]

147. And lets not forget...

...that in the early days of mankind, animals WERE used for food, and the rest of the animal used for weapons (bones and teeth), for more tools, and skins for warmth and shelter. Animals...it's what sustained early man....not veggies.

[DatManFromNawlins]

149. I'm sure apes don't eat meat either

Oh, wait, they DO!

And pandas have claws... how dare they subsist on bamboo! That's PEOPLE FOOD!

[proteus_lives]

150. Not buying it.

We have pointy teeth and blunt teeth. We're meant to be omnivores.

[yewberry]

151. I've never, ever understood this argument.

All the bickering people do over human canine teeth, binocular vision, length of intestines...what does it matter?

We make the choices we make. Some of us try to make good decisions, some of us don't. Some of us think individual changes can make a difference, some don't.

What difference does it make whether it's "natural" or not? I eat broccoli out of season routinely; that's not "natural," but that doesn't mean it's not good for me.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

152. What A Crock Of Shit ROFLMAO!!!!!

That has to be some of the more absolutely retarded writing I've seen in a while. Utter stupidity.

[saltpoint]

156. Then how come do we got us these here sharp teeth what for tearin'

up meat with?

Also you keep on postin' stuff like this and you'll hurt Jimmy Buffett's feelin's.

[yewberry]

158. Some real sharp teeth:

Yowsers, there's some real feline canines.

[saltpoint]

180. Yep. Plenty sharp-lookin'.

[backscatter712]

164. If we were pure herbivores...

We'd have side-facing eyes, we'd have five stomachs and we'd chew our cud.

[Badgerman]

166. Just more science idiocy ballyhooed by the Media, and listened to by the...

Ill and under educated masses that make up the majority of this country. Many a graet scientist and philospher has made huge errors and drawn absurd conclusions when dabbling in places they forgot to turn on the lights in. vegans are a self-inflicted abhoration, quite convinced and filled with a religious like belief in what they practice and preach...but alas believing the rock hurled at them is really a marshmallow, will not make it true, nor prevent a concussion when it hits.

[Ignis]

224. "vegans are a self-inflicted abhoration" Hey, at least we can spell!

U, on da uvver haond, amz uh greate geenyous! Nowt like demz unner-edjumicated massesz!

:rofl:

[rug]

227. In this case, I recommend he eat more fish.

[Ignis]

229. I recommend the fish-slapping dance! (nt)

[1]

169. exactly. we are natural vegetarians. which is why, over the years...

none of us eat meat anymore.

its really that simple. isn't it?

[scrinmaster]

170. Nope.

People have always eaten meat. Our closest relatives, chimpanzees, eat meat. We obviously can't eat only meat, but it does have a place in our diets.

[armyowalgreens]

171. That fails to take into account our most important feature...high intelligence

Which means we can be whatever the hell we want. Assuming that meat doesn't kill us, which is doesn't, and we can obtain proper nutrition from it, which we can, we can survive as carnivores.

Our lack of claws and large teeth can be overcome by manufacturing tools.

[EndersDame]

172. Although we did develop a brain to create tools to tear flesh

just sayin

[skip fox]

182. How many lives to support one life?

That's the bottom line moral issue for me. And I have no reason to believe that my life is any more rich in my terms than many other lives, especially those of the types of creatures we like to eat, in their terms.

I know many people who call themselves animal lovers (and many do great work with rescuing animals &c.), but it seems an incredible blind spot (as large as the moral blind spot that allowed people to own other people) for them to not make the connection to what is on their plates, like lamb or veal. My goodness.

There are hundreds of health benefits as well. (I've been vegetarian for over 20 years and am a healthy 62 year old, more active physically, leaner, more energetic, than most of my friends my age and younger.)

Health benefits that extend to the planet, by the way.

[Kitty Herder]

184. This is nothing new.

Our intestines indicate that we evolved to eat fruit, salad-type greens and some small amounts of meat. So not pure vegetarians, but largely subsisting on plants.

People are often misled by the fact that when we talk about hunter-gatherers, we often emphasize the hunting, while it is gathering that yields the largest portion of the diet.

Edited to add: Didn't anyone here take a basic anthropology course? And I take it you all have more expertise than the Richard Leakey?

[Ignis]

212. "Who's this Leakey guy? I know more than he does!"

:rofl:

It boggles the mind a bit, doesn't it? Next we'll be hearing from armchair physicists who question the wisdom of that shifty Einstein character.

On a more serious note, your point about the percentage of meat in a typical (and historical) hunter-gatherer diet is spot on. Of course, the amount of prestige generated for the males who brought in that small amount of meat was often incredibly out of proportion to the caloric input.

But I'm sure you already knew that, having actually *gasp* read a book or two on the subject before posting.

:hi:

[PatGund]

249. It's funny....

But the only place I'm finding that quote is in articles referring to the HuffPost article. Noplace else.

Since Richard Leakey has found enough bone points and broken / burned bones in the various hominid sites he's uncovered, I would think it would be rather odd for him to claim we were "natural vegetarians".

Besides which, ALL the great apes - Gorillas, Chimps, Orangs, and humans - will eat meat when they can get it. (sometimes that meat is in the form of smaller animals and insects, but it's still not vegetable protein)

[Karmadillo]

186. More proof from smart folks for the People Eating Tasty Animals contingent to ignore.

Some of the comments on this thread seem strangely similar to those of the visionaries who sing the wonders of clean coal. As the article notes, it's hard for people to give up their traditions. Still, when those traditions are so destructive, both to themselves and the planet, one can hope carnivores will consider the possibility there's a better path to follow. You have nothing to lose but your rationalizations.

[renegade000]

187. Humans are omnivores

And we seem to have adapted to eating meat pretty nicely without all those specific attributes, mainly due to the fact that we have huge brains that allow us to utilize fire and cutting tools.

What I will say is, we don't need nearly as much meat as people in the US eat these days.

[SidDithers]

192. And that's why our ancestors killed animals...

and used their skins to make clothing, used their bones to make tools.

But tossed the meat aside, in favour of a nice greek salad with tomatoes and olives.

Sid

[konnichi wa]

194. Ah, the old 'perfect design banana' argument

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3Fw3wZouM

This guy is an idiot.

[torbird]

200. Wow. Phrenology PROVES We're Vegetarians, Too!

Evolution is poorly understood by even educated people. How many can explain natural selection or the impetus for mutation and the retention of favorable mutation over generations? I don't even know that I could do it cogently, so to stake a political argument on "natural" or evolutionary claims is at best a stretch, at worst it's laughable. Besides, the reasoning at work here, as others suggest, is close to the level of "I have ten toes, so that means I can climb a tree better than a Three-toed Sloth!" In a word, false.

My baseline for considering vegetarianism as anything other than a personal choice is this: food animals serve no other purpose. I think farms should be efficient, humane, and sanitary in their processes, but I don't respect cows, pigs, chickens, or any other food animals simply because they have big, dewy eyes and a beating heart. What purpose do they serve, exactly, if not as food? Should we exterminate them all rather than eating them?

I am not interested in the moral or philosophical arguments for vegetarianism. Those are metaphysical musings and belong in the realm of personal beliefs. Practical and political evidence is what is wanted, and Leakey's leaky logic isn't it. I suppose next he'll say cats have long tails so they can hang from high branches?

[muriel_volestrangler]

202. How long ago do you think humans became omnivores?

We have, for instance, the closest relative from the past 100,000 years being a carnivore:

Sea gives up Neanderthal fossil

...
Dr Mike Richards, from the Max Planck Institute in Leipzig, analysed different forms, or isotopes, of the elements nitrogen and carbon in the fossilised bone. This shed light on the types of foods eaten by this young male.

The results show he was an extreme carnivore, surviving on a diet consisting largely of meat.

"High in the food chain, they must have been quite rare on the ground compared to other mammals, which explains their rarity to some degree," said Wil Roebroeks from the University of Leiden.

The results of the stable isotope analysis fit with what is known about other examples of this species, though other research suggests that in Gibraltar, on the southern coast of Iberia, some Neanderthals were exploiting marine resources, including dolphins, monk seals and mussels.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8099377.stm

[PlanetBev]

215. Well, that decides it...

I've worked up an appetite for meat reading all these posts. I'm going to Costco today for lunch and getting me one of them $1.65 hot dogs with kraut.

I can guarantee you, it's the kraut that makes you fart, not the meat.

[Edweird]

216. Ya, right. Whatever.

:rolleyes:

[izzybeans]

217. I proved this hypothesis wrong today at lunch.

"Humans are natural vegetarians."

My body is processing the data as I type. Though, most of my day's diet has consisted of leeks and squash, their was meat in there somewhere.

You have to ignore a whole lot of history to make that statement. To assume that I need claws to eat meat ignores the evolution of our species into a cooperative organized by a division of labor. Our physical limitations were overcome with the advent of fire.

[dem629]

218. Fine. Don't eat meat. More for the rest of us.

[GeorgeGist]

221. Sorry to shatter your myth ...

but omnivores are real.

[rug]

226. Good. Irrelevant to the OP, but good.

[WeDidIt]

223. Another interesting trait

When pre-humans began consuming larger quantites of protein, especially fish, brains began to evolve into larger organs.

[MattBaggins]

235. Ah the macho, "we have to run em down and kill em fallacy".

Omnivore-Scavengers is what we were. We competed with the vultures for dead rotting carcasses. I know that doesn't fit in with either the mighty hunter meme or the earth loving fruit gatherer memes and grosses people out; but we went around looking for dead things to snack on.

[Scout]

237. and why how/did we develop the brain power that leads to tool use? n/t

[blindpig]

239. You might check this out:

Leakey has done some fine work but he's out to lunch on this one.

[RadicalTexan]

241. I'm vegan

And I don't care how we evolved, as long as I can live on an animal-free diet, I will.

Having said that, I am fully aware that living at all entails some cruelty to other beings, be it direct or indirect. I am currently moving towards being a locavore vegan.

When peak oil really comes, if I am one of the (un?)lucky survivors, I will fish and hunt when necessary, with a heavy heart, but without remorse.

[SeattleGirl]

253. Pardon my ignorance, but what is a locavore?

:shrug:

[dorkulon]

260. Let me google that for you

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=locavore

[SeattleGirl]

261. So I guess asking a question is now verboten on DU.

Hmmmmm.

That's too bad.

I used to be able to ask a question here and not get a bucket full of snark dumped on my head.

[dorkulon]

262. Just a joke

Besides, I did answer the question, right?

[SeattleGirl]

263. Sorry.....

Been reading too my threads that are pissing me off today.

And yes, you did answer my question. :)

[Rebubula]

246. Honestly...

...why does anyone even FUCKING care what other people eat??

Pork chops taste good; bacon tastes good.

All the articles and studies cannot make it any less desirable for me to have that big juicy Filet Mignon or the breast of chicken.

I love vegetables and I love meat.

To some, eating meat makes me an asshole. I could not care less. More steak for me.

[Rex]

250. Well I guess we could all still be stupid bipeds with small brains

running around and hiding from the better natural predators. Munching on hard tubers and local flora. On second thought, no thanks give me a steak and pass the A1!

[mkultra]

251. Humans arent "built" for anything. They adapt.

We could easily adapt either way given the environment. you make Baby Science weep.

[Occam Bandage]

254. I wonder what this enormous brain and these dextrous fingers are for.

Or this binocular vision we have.

[KamaAina]

257. If I have my popcorn without butter, it's vegan, right?

:popcorn:

[Spider Jerusalem]

259. I'm sorry, but that is absurd bullshit.

Humans are NOT HERBIVORES, we are OMNIVORES.

Fun fact #1: humans (unlike herbivorous animals) cannot digest cellulose.

Fun fact #2: humans are human because we have large brains. We have large brains because at some time in our evolutionary past our ancestors started eating protein-rich food...specifically, meat.

Fun fact #3: we evolved opposable thumbs and tool-making skills. Just because we don't have claws and teeth like smilodons doesn't mean we aren't meat-eaters (see also fun fact #2).

Fun fact #4: The Huffington Post is a den of quackery and woo, and nothing one of their self-proclaimed 'health experts' says should be taken seriously.

[Zomby Woof]

264. Interesting

Worth reflection and further study on my part.

Doing my best to eat far more veggies/fruit and far less meat. I find these articles worthwhile. Thanks!

[Arkana]

265. Then why does a ribeye taste so good, hmmm?

[Sander]

270. Nope! -- Shattering the Vegan Myth

No, recent findings appear to confirm that only those early hominids who started eating animal protein developed larger brains - a prerequisite to advance tool-making and the evolution of homo sapiens.

A good discussion can be seen at http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes/conferences/wburg/posters/sboydeaton/eaton.htm.

"About 2.5 million years ago, however, there is evidence that animal foods began to occupy an increasingly prominent place in our ancestor’s subsistence. Decreased molar size, less mandibular and cranial robusticity, and alterations in incisor shape all suggest greater emphasis on foods requiring less grinding and more tearing, such as meat."

and

"A cardinal feature of human evolution has been development of increasing brain size: Homo sapiens’ cranial capacity is thrice that of A prime selective force driving this increase was almost certainly the complex nature of social interactions among early hominids. There is, however, no a priori reason to assume that such interactions, at first, differed much from those of chimpanzee and gorilla ancestors. Social complexity was thus a necessary, but insufficient, selective pressure acting to increase brain size. Another necessary factor was probably adequate dietary substrate to allow formation of brain tissue. (Crawford, 1992) The limiting raw materials, AA, DTA and DHA, could have been provided by animal tissues as hunting and/or scavenging activities assumed greater importance in human subsistence. (Eaton, 1998) Increasing complexity of interpersonal and social interactions together with availability of animal tissues - to provide the necessary structural lipid - constituted a unique psychonutritional nexus which may explain human brain expansion."