Did David Letterman get a free pass?

[Captain_Nemo]

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/06/12/letterman_palin/index.html


Friday, June 12, 2009 03:18 PDT

Did David Letterman get a free pass?

by Amanda Fortini

If there was any question that a stubborn strain of old-school sexism persists in Obama's America, one has only to look at certain leaders of what the right wing loves to call the "liberal media" but which is sounding and acting, recently, more like the frat-house media. There, like a virus hiding in the body before, perhaps, staging a comeback, misogyny has found a place to lurk almost undetected, at least by the usually sharp eyes of progressive feminists.

"Slutty flight attendant" is not just a sexual put-down; it's a socioeconomic one.

Examine the symptoms of this infection, beginning with David Letterman's comments (widely noted but insufficiently analyzed) about Sarah Palin "buying makeup at Bloomingdale's to update her slutty flight attendant look," as well as his joke about Palin's teenage daughter: "Sarah Palin went to a Yankees Game yesterday … during the seventh inning stretch, her daughter was knocked up by Alex Rodriguez." (Letterman insists he was talking about her 18-year-old daughter, Bristol, who actually had been, well, knocked up, not her 14-year-old, Willow, the daughter who attended the game.) A week before these remarks aired, there was an uglier outbreak of the contagion in the pages of Playboy -- never a bastion of egalitarian forward thinking, but still -- where writer Guy Cimbalo published a list of 10 conservative women he'd like to "hate fuck," a term that various observers interpreted as rough sex, sex tinged by rage, or rape. (Gabe Winant wrote for Broadsheet about the "Hate Fuck" story, which has since been yanked by Playboy.) Worse than the violence of the general sentiment was the graphic specificity of the "Hate Fuck Rating" appended to each woman -- a list that included Michelle Malkin, Elisabeth Hasselbeck, Dana Perino and Laura Ingraham. On Hasslebeck: "You'd be better served sucking off Regis Philbin." On Malkin: "Worse than fucking Eva Braun."

Both cases were met with a tepid response from the left. Though Letterman apologized on Wednesday’s show (see video below), his tone was mock-serious, and his audience chuckled along.

[brettdale]

1. Does this same salon writer

Criticize the comedian Chris rock?

[Captain_Nemo]

2. are you justifying the joke about a 14 year old being impregnated by an adult?

[Drunken Irishman]

11. Who made a joke about a 14 year old girl?

[Tx4obama]

44. Get real...

no one made a joke about a 14 year old.
The joke was about BRISTOL who is an ADULT!

[and-justice-for-all]

135. Letterman can tell his jokes if bush can get away with murder...nt

[itsrobert]

175. Anyone sharper than a door knob knows the joke was about Bristol

You're not that dumb.

[emilyg]

3. Why?

[Captain_Nemo]

6. I asked a question. You didn't answer.

[emilyg]

9. Not my op to answer.

I was asking about Chris.

[Captain_Nemo]

10. Sorry, but these are the silliest answers to a well written article I have ever encountered at DU

Is there any intellect here? Feminism? Critical Thinking?

[Arctic Dave]

4. A pass? DL is calling them like he sees them.

If someone dresses like a B-movie porn actress, why should I be offended if someone points it out?

[Captain_Nemo]

7. Hmmm and what outfit would she be wearing that you are referring?

[Arctic Dave]

13. Ask DL. I didn't make the joke.

And I'll say the other joke was funny too. To bad he was off on which kid was at the game. Why do I say this? Because if you use your kids as props, don't get pissy if someone takes a shot at them.

[Luminous Animal]

20. Yes. I'd like to here the answer to that, too.

[snooper2]

163. Aw, Gosh Darn....

I just like to show a little leg when I'm in the lower 48. Gotta keep them hard working 'merican rednecks coming to those rallys! You Betcha!

:rofl:

[emilyg]

12. What makes you such an expert on women wear?

[Captain_Nemo]

14. You are not serious. Are you? Can we discuss the content of the misogyny referenced in the article?

Or is that too intellectual and feminist for this crowd?

[emilyg]

19. Don't attack me. I'm with you.

[lindisfarne]

21. Obviously, emilygdidn't see misogyny in the Letterman joke - as far as I can tell, s/he's

made no comment on the rest of the article.

I see no misogyny in saying someone got knocked up. It's a little crass in polite conversation, but it means "to get pregnant" and I don't take it to be misogynistic (see my other reply before you jump all over me).

[Tx4obama]

47. Back in the 70s

everyone used the phrase 'knocked up'.
I do not find it offensive and I am a woman.

[emilyg]

159. Wrong.

[Arctic Dave]

15. I didn't make the joke, ask DL.

[aquart]

5. Dear me, what punishment would be sufficient ??

SHE accused HIM of being a child molester. I think that's worse, myself.

[emilyg]

28. I have contacted his sponsors and the network.

Jokes like that are an insult to all women and children.

[Tx4obama]

48. No... you are wrong

I am a woman and I was not personally offended.
Do not speak for ALL women. If you want to speak for yourself then fine.
But do not think that all women think like you do.

[emilyg]

160. Where did I speak for ALL women?

[WonderGrunion]

148. I hope you recognize the irony here.

Your Braves avatar is considered offensive and racist to Native Americans. Who are your sponsors and network? I want to express my outrage over the implied subjugation, ethnic cleansing and rape of a people performed by our government. See how hyperbole works.

[emilyg]

172. You're assuming I

did not contact Braves owner and sponsors.

[EFerrari]

8. Oh, yeah. Progressive feminists need to be told what to think about Letterman.

[Prism]

16. There is no liberal vs conservative on this, just people

I've long been disturbed by the sexism directed towards Sarah Palin (even though I think the sooner she exits the national stage, the better). As a gay male, I have a vested interested in this stuff because sexism and homophobia are usually closely related.

I do understand this, though. Here is the problem in a nutshell: You can get just about anyone to say the right things, but you cannot always get them to believe them.

Give me a hundred people vigorously supporting women's rights and I'll show you fifty who, in their heart of hearts, are juggling no minor amount of bias and bigotry, but who say otherwise because they think it's the response expected of them.

Slut, bimbo, whore. All these at Sarah Palin and more. On what basis? I'm not sure. I have a lot of not incredibly nice words for Sarah Palin based on her politics, but nothing in her personal history suggests she's a woman who's been around the male block (and even if she has been, it shouldn't matter). She's a woman with the wrong ideas, so . . . she must be slandered in the most sexual terms possible? How does that follow?

Usually, when called on the misogynism, people will fall back on a sputtering ramble about hypocrisy. Palin isn't a "real woman" because she doesn't hold the right politics. Only liberal women deserve respect. Conservative women, well, open season, boys!

This is, plainly put, wrong. Sexism is never ok.

And ditto the attacks on Palin's children. I am horrified to watch self-styled progressives have an utter field day with Palin's kids. I don't care how old Bristol is, it was monstrous in the campaign to drag her and Levi Johnston through the gaunlet in the way many on this board did. It betrayed an utter, souless lack of humanity. And the constant justifications are barely stomached. No one of any self-respect at any point in American history would tolerate this kind of political targeting - and campaign history is full of some pretty harsh attacks on candidates' families.

It boggles the mind.

But, there are two types of people in this world. There are people who believe in right and wrong, period. And there are people who believe in right and wrong . . . as far as politically convenient.

The one service Palin provides is how she draws out those distinctions in her critics. I detest her politics and would really like to never hear from her again. But much of the commentary by her critics reveals far, far, far more about them than they could ever say about her.

And that is depressing. We should know a hell of a lot better.

[Luminous Animal]

51. Excellent post.

It kills me that I feel compelled to defend Palin and her children on a so-called progressive board. I have been an activist feminist for most of my adult life and Palin is on the opposite side of most everything that I have fought for. I have no doubt that the GOP chose Palin because she is an attractive woman. I also have no doubt that she did not dress "slutty".

[Prism]

63. I don't get the "slutty" thing

I mean, she isn't exactly out on the trail wearing pasties.

She's attractive, but dresses as many female politicians do.

So pretty = whore?

Maybe I'm slow on this.

She did wink that one time, though.

The harlot.

[Tx4obama]

95. She winked

a hell of a lot more than one time.
And she should be crucified for doing that - if she had been a man then all hell would have broke out!

[Prism]

100. It's a pretty common expression with rural women, IME

I think this is a regional cultural disconnect. But, I know a lot of women who use that wink as punctuation in a "just between us" sort of way, but it's a nonsexual context. Generally, the type of women I've encountered who use the wink tend to be rural, countrified, etc. When not rural, I typically see it in Irish-American females.

I've seen that same wink so many times in conversations, it never crossed my mind there was anything sexual in it until the great Palin Debacle of '08. I mean, I have female relatives who use that exact same wink-as-punctuation, and I'm pretty sure they're not coming onto me. Trying to be charming or funny, certainly. But sexual?

No.

I honestly think the "She winked, she's trying to bang us all through the television!" reaction was cultural/regional ignorance.

Sorry.

No matter what Rich Lowry says. He, obviously, needed to get laid.

[Tx4obama]

108. During the campaign...

Palin did just too many 'hokey' things.
I watched videos of her speeches and of her interviews that were taped 'before the campaign' and she NEVER winked and she NEVER left the 'ing' off of the end of her words like she did during the campaign. So when she did those things 'during' the campaign it came across as being too fake.

[Prism]

113. I do wonder

How much was Palin's folksy genuine and manufactured?

I'm sure it was a mix of the two. She was raised in Idaho and did come from a small town in Alaska . . . but then she had ambition.

But this isn't anything especially egregious or worthy of "My god, this is the worst woman we've ever encountered!"

After all, Lincoln pushed his log cabin, rail-splitting self in his first campaign. Of course, he was always a lawyer and politician. He used his country bumpkin persona to its fullest. Obama did his "I'm just a humble community organizer . . ." nonsense. He was always ambitious and aiming ever higher. It's what politicians do.

I'm not comparing Palin to Lincoln (I hope that goes without saying). But to paint her persona as especially egregious or unheard of or worthy of the venom directed at her . . . color me unimpressed with the nonsense.

Her ideas are bad enough. The least of politicians on our side should be able to put to the lie her socialism nonsense after her interview last week.

I just don't see any of this as justification for the sexism directed at her or the attacks on her children.

[Tx4obama]

121. Well ...

Sarah's family moved to Alaska when she was an infant.
And she attended school in Alaska and part of her college education was in Hawaii, so I would not put her in the 'country bumpkin' category.
And like I said before all of her videos of speeches and debates while running for governor, and as governor, she did not talk like she did during the campaign leaving off the 'ing' from her words and she never used the 'cutesy' voice like she did on the presidential campaign trail.

True Lincoln was a country bumpkin even though he was a very educated person.
And even though Obama talked about his community service he never talked like someone that hung out on a street corner ;)

[Prism]

128. But there are similarities

Lincoln, of course, played the bumpkin when it suited him. He was anything but ignorant, but he'd tell his little stories, make people think he was some small town western politician. Even his accent was a thing of convenience.

I'm not putting Palin at his level, but she obviously tries to use the same tactic.

And I disagree about Obama. He has his "voices". Put him in front a church crowd, and he'd pull that preachery voice. Which I personally found hilarious. He was raised in one of the most multicultural environments possible. I have friends who went to the same school as he did in Hawaii.

He got his "church tone" as a matter of pure politics. He was not raised with it. He did not even encounter it until he lived in Chicago. Anyone who thinks his "preacherism" accent is natural is the definition of gullible.

But I recognize it for the tool it is, don't care, and don't hold it against him. Same with Palin.

If you want to say Palin is fake folksy, it should be noted Obama's Jeremiah Wright voice is a similar construct.

It is what it is.

[Tx4obama]

131. I agreee that...

Obama has different 'speaking styles' BUT none of them are a style that neglects the use of the proper English language.
His 'tone' does differ depending on the occasion/topic of his speeches but he NEVER dumbs down his vocabulary or pronunciation. Some speeches have more passion than others but that is a far cry from talkin' like a country bumpkin or a street thug.

[Prism]

134. I disagree

Obama in front of various church congregations was a much different grammatical/pronunciation construct than an Obama in front of the entire nation.

Now, we don't get "campaign Obama" vs President Obama much these days. All to the good.

But the idea that he somehow didn't indulge in colloquialism is silly. He did it early and often.

Most politicians do. And, yes, sometimes that colloquial language mangled the hell out of proper grammar.

[Ms. Toad]

146. Generally I agree with what you said above

but I grew up in rural America, and never used that wink myself and do not recall ever seeing that kind of wink used by other women.

[Xenotime]

156. She a tramp. Perhaps you can't see it.

[Matariki]

169. Can you define 'tramp' please.

[eridani]

123. Same old stupid and unimaginative sexist slurs

If Letterman wanted to go after her, why not for being a religious whackjob annointed by a witch hunter whe expects the end of the world Real Soon Now?

[Captain Hilts]

139. RIGHT. There are enough things to go after other than how she dresses, etc. nt

[Xenotime]

155. Then don't defend her. She deserve it for aligning with such a backwards cause.

[Tx4obama]

96. Oh come on ...

it was Palin and McCain that USED Levi for THEIR photo ops.
He'll be okay now that he knows how to use the media circuit and he'll robably will make a fortune selling his book ;)

[Prism]

107. Sorry, double standard

Under that same rationale, people could say the president used Sasha and Malia for photo opportunities/politics.

There is a certain leeway we give to the families of candidates. I would certainly never say President Obama "paraded" his family during the campaign. He revealed them, showed us they are a part of him, let us see who his family is and how those relationships affect him.

That is something I'm willing to extend to the opposition candidates.

None of us can say what Palin's motives were. Maybe Bristol and Levi really were trying to work it out. They were kids, doing what they thought they should, trying to figure out the right thing for themselves and future child under the melting heat of the national spotlight. They were certainly far braver than I think I'd ever be.

I'm willing to be incredibly forgiving under those circumstances.

Sarah Palin couldn't govern a pre-school. But that doesn't mean I surrender my own humanity at the door and justify going after her children and paint bad faith all over her family.

Families are often mess. Her's included. So what?

[Captain Hilts]

140. And folks here said Laura Bush dressed like a sofa. Women can't win when it comes to clothes. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

166. Of course, no one ever made fun of what Dick Cheney or Dubya wore.

Ever.

[ScreamingWhisper]

170. Proof there is still hope...well said

:yourock: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[lindisfarne]

17. As for the Playboy thing: Why would you give publicity to a marginal publication?

Lots of marginal publications have just as offensive, if not more offensive, statements.
There's no point in drawing attention to them - that only gives credence to them. (And frankly, without the OP, I never would have known about this and would have preferred not to, seeing as it's irrelevant in that relatively few people ever knew about the article).

Letterman, obviously, is not marginal.

But frankly, Letterman's statement can not legitimately been seen as endorsing either rape or sex with a child. He said "daughter gets knocked up". Not "let's endorse a 14 year old being raped by a famous baseball player". Palin has more than one daughter.

It's not a joke I would tell. But the media exposure Palin is trying to get by blowing it up into something it's not is even worse - she's continually keeping the joke in the media spotlight AND deliberately associating her YOUNGER daughter with it. I never would have known about the joke without her efforts - and the vast majority of people who now know about it also never would have.

[Captain_Nemo]

26. I think she fought back against the sexualization of young women - a big topic these days.

[lindisfarne]

29. No she didn't. She's never ever spoken out on the sexualization of young

girls. If she cared one iota about that, there have been plenty of opportunities to speak out.

Being anti-abortion and anti-teaching-about-contraceptives says nothing to the issue of "sexualization of young women".

I'm not so opposed to "sexualization of young women" as I am opposed to not teaching girls to assert themselves, helping them establish strong self-images, helping them think about who they want to be and to be that, and teaching them how to care for themselves (including allowing them access to contraception and being taught reliable information about contraception). In short, I'm opposed to failure to empower young girls to make well thought out decisions for themselves.

[paulsby]

40. this is a myth

she has said she believes abstinence is the best policy, but she has also NOT come out against teaching about contraceptives.

those are mutually consistent. it is true that many abstinence supporters DO NOT support teaching about contraceptives, but palin is not one of them.

them's the facts.

if you disagree, please supply a quote or link to where she has said she is against teaching about contraceptives.

[lindisfarne]

45. Here's your link:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/01/palin-backed-abstinence-education/
Sarah Palin, who announced on Monday that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, indicated during her run for Alaska governor that she was a firm supporter of abstinence-only education in schools.

In a 2006 Eagle Forum questionnaire, Palin indicated that she supported funding abstinence-until-marriage education programs instead of teaching sex-education programs.

"Explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support," Palin wrote in the conservative group’s questionnaire.

The exact question was:
3. Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?
Sarah Palin: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/09/01/palin-s-record-on-family-issues.aspx

[paulsby]

58. and if you dig further,you find out she does support it...

and was contrasted with mccain who does not...

from

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/sep/06/nation/na-sexed6

"In a widely quoted 2006 survey she answered during her gubernatorial campaign, Palin said she supported abstinence-until-marriage programs. But weeks later, she proclaimed herself "pro-contraception" and said condoms ought to be discussed in schools alongside abstinence.

"I'm pro-contraception, and I think kids who may not hear about it at home should hear about it in other avenues," she said during a debate in Juneau.

Such statements could raise concerns among social conservatives who have been some of Palin's most enthusiastic supporters since she was tapped for the No. 2 spot on the GOP ticket last week.

Leslee Unruh, president of the National Abstinence Clearinghouse and campaign manager of the Vote Yes for Life effort, said children must be given a "clear and concise" message on the benefits of abstinence.

Asked about Palin's statement, Unruh said, "I don't think it's clear. It seems disjointed to me."

Two days later, Unruh dismissed the comments as "old."

"I support her in every way," she said.

Other conservatives who have backed Palin, including James Dobson of Focus on the Family, declined to weigh in.

Palin spokeswoman Maria Comella said the governor stands by her 2006 statement, supporting sex education that covers both abstinence and contraception.

McCain's campaign did not respond to questions about whether Palin's position is inconsistent with his. But earlier, a campaign spokesperson said McCain believes abstinence is "the only safe and responsible alternative."

"To do otherwise is to send a mixed signal to children that, on the one hand they should not be sexually active, but on the other, here is the way to go about it," according to a statement provided by the campaign. "As any parent knows, ambiguity and equivocation leads to problems when it comes to teaching children right from wrong."

[lindisfarne]

61. So it's not a "myth" - it's based on an answer Palin gave which was VERY clear.

Then, she said something different a few weeks later.

For political purposes? (Just like she's using the Letterman joke for political purposes?)

[paulsby]

70. no, it's based on an (apparently) binary questionnaire

vs. an actual response she gave in a debate that allowed her to be more explicit.

she has said she does not support EXPLICIT SEX ED.

she says she does support sex ed contraception teaching, such as teaching kids about condom usage.

so, when she was given a choice to EXPLAIN her answer, she explained whAt she meant.

and she repeated this in interviews, etc.

she supports teaching about contraception.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Wow, she sounds great.

:eyes:

She also thinks the Earth is only 6,000 years old, isn't that right?

[paulsby]

82. i never said she sounds great.

i said it was a myth that she was against schools teaching about contraception and offered evidence to prove my point.

i wasn't addressing her silly views on the age of the earth, so how is that relevant?

this is the problem with people who are so consumed by politics. they will believe ANYTHING negative about somebody with a modicum (if that) of evidence, and fail to ever acknowledge being wrong. because after all, in cases like this (people like palin), truth takes a backseat to metanarrative.

there are LOTS of things to make fun of and criticize palin about. but it pays to actually know the facts. the facts are she has numerous whack views.

but the fact is she DOES support teaching about contraception, and this was an issue that she differentiated herself from mccain on.

[lindisfarne]

90. So what exactly is "explicit sex ed" if not teaching about contraceptives & STDs?

Do they honestly have live humans come in and demonstrate sexual intercourse, fellatio, and cunnilingus in Alaskan schools?
(Cue Monty Python's Meaning of Life. The British are so progressive.)

The exact question was:
3. Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?
Sarah Palin: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.

[paulsby]

94. well, you don't want to go stampeding towards the clitoris

as for the exact question

look, for example at how it's phrased

abstinence only

instead of

1) explicit sex-education programs
2) school based clinics **AND**
3) distribution of condoms in schools

so, unless you are for all 3 , which are lumped together in an "and" , you would vote the first part.

that's the problem with questionnaires like this, binary questions, etc.

the fact is when questioned about her asnwer, she gave HER ANSWER

she supports teaching about contraception in schools.

i wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't support distribution of contraceptives in schools.

read the question critically, and then think about her answer.

her answer is pretty clear.

she said it.

she supports teaching about contraception in schools.

i took a course in college called "sociology of human sexuality" which was damn explicit (and quite good). i think it's thus reasonable to distinguish between explicit and non-explicit sex ed.

[lindisfarne]

97. At best, Palin was hedging her answer in the 2006 survey to get the support of the right-wing group

who sent it to her. She at best was trying to have things both ways. And frankly, I'm being very generous in trying to see the point you're arguing because frankly, I don't have any idea of what she meant by "explicit sex education" if not teaching about contraception and STDs).

I really don't buy your explanation.

If it was more IMPORTANT to her that contraception information be taught in the schools, than it was to get that group's support, she would have made that clear in her answer. (And frankly, hedging the answer to me greatly reduces the amount of support I see her as providing for teaching about contraception. This answer says even if she at some level believes teaching kids about contraception is important, she was willing to sacrifice that belief for political gain.)

I know NO ONE who supports teaching of contraception in the schools who would have answered that question the way she did.

The exact question was:
3. Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?
Sarah Palin: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.

[paulsby]

99. i disagree

i am not going to play mind reader into her intent.

it was a questionnaire, and based on the question provided, it's very easy to vote one way even if you are for teaching about CONTRACEPTION but also for teaching abstinence only and (maybe) not for distribution

i've taken enough of these questionnaires myself to know that when binary questions like this are asked, it's often hard to fit one OR the other into a more complex nuanced position.

we've all seen these.

fwiw, i support teaching of contraception in school. i do NOT support distribution of contraceptives in (public) schools).

so, it would be hard for me to answer that question at all.

face it. it was a poorly worded question, a binary question with multiple prongs.

when QUESTIONED, she gave an explicit verbal answer.

the verbal answer is more clear than the (a) or (b) answer, so i take the latter at face value.

especially when she reinforced it, and contrasted herself iwth mccain over it.

for fuck's sake, she has SO many wacky issues to attack her on, attacking her for stuff that is FALSE is especially egregious.

[lindisfarne]

101. She wasn't making a binary Yes/No answer. She wrote more than Yes/No.

She had the opportunity to say "I disagree with distribution in school but I believe in teaching about contraception".

If it was truly important to her (and not motivated by political gain), she would have clarified her position.

The exact question was:
3. Will you support funding for abstinence-until-marriage education instead of for explicit sex-education programs, school-based clinics, and the distribution of contraceptives in schools?
Sarah Palin: Yes, the explicit sex-ed programs will not find my support.


What people are attacking her on is hypocrisy and using the Letterman situation for political gain. (And to me, her 2006 answer essentially is the same, if she really supported teaching of contraception in the schools but failed to make that clear to the right-wing organization who sent her the survey).

Oh well, it's really not important.

[paulsby]

102. for all you know

the "explicit" sex ed programs were the ones that INCLUDED distribution in schools.

god only knows. i don't

i do know what she said when asked specifics, and what the policy was when she was governor in alaska.

i think we both agree she's got plenty of wack ideas. but supporting teaching about contraception AND abstinence is not one of them

[lindisfarne]

104. Actually, I believe teaching about abstinence is wack. I believe kids should be taught to

make the decision for themselves, to (try to) make sure their partner is not using them. But I don't believe in teaching kids that there is anything wrong with having sex when they're ready and are using contraceptives and have both discussed STDs & preferably, have been tested before too much heavy petting goes on. Even without intercourse or oral sex, the herpes virus *can* be transmitted via heavy petting or even kissing.

So, the issue here isn't really abstinence at all, unless you define "abstinence" as no kissing and no petting.

My only goal is to make sure kids have learned the relevant information by the time they start exploring their sexuality with another person (of course, exploring it on one's own carries no risk - what's Palin's position on teaching about masturbation?).

[paulsby]

105. i have no problem with teaching about abstinence and contraception

as long as it's not done from a MORAL angle but from a medical angle.

that holds for both abstinence AND contraception.

abstinence is an option that gives zero percent of pregnancy, and significantly reduced chance of other medical issues such as STD's.

imo, public schools should not take moral stances, especially on controversial issues (in practicality, no teacher would be slighted for taking a moral angle saying "slavery is wrong", since that's "settled" but would be slighted for saying "having sex before marriage is wrong")

of course we all know that when kids are ready, and when they THINK they are ready are often very different things.

but again, i believe it is a parent's place to teach morals to the kid, not the school's.

[lindisfarne]

109. What's there to teach about abstinence? Isn't it more that you teach about the risks related to

sexual activity? Then you say "And if you don't kiss, you don't have any risk of getting various STDs. (But you also don't do the things kids your age are supposed to be doing - exploring your sexuality)
And, if you don't have intercourse (or get certain body parts very close without it being intercourse) you won't run the risk of getting pregnant."

There are not an insignificant number of girls who have anal sex but who still consider themselves virgins. Others have oral sex but consider that to be "abstinence" (I'm not sure whether the former consider their behavior to be abstinent as well.) This goal of "abstinence" and "virginity" is leading to some very twisted thinking out there.

Teens are supposed to explore their sexuality. Evolution designed humans that way - what we should be aiming for is to give them the confidence to make their own decisions, to not be coerced, and to know what the risks are and how to minimize those risks. If a kid has these, then whenever they decide to have sex is "when they are ready". Evolutionarily, women are probably at their peak for having kids in their late teens/early 20s. But culture interacts with evolution, and in our culture, with our economic system (and opportunities), one generally has a better overall outcome if one waits until one has obtained a college degree and gotten on one's feet financially. Of course, a female's fertility starts declining ever so slightly about the late 20s, and quite a bit by the late 30s. Male sperm decline in quality as well - the older a man gets, the more health problems, genetic mutations, learning disabilities, and so on his children are likely to have.



Prohibition didn't work with alcohol. It doesn't work with marijuana (& other illicit drugs). And it certainly doesn't work with sex.

[paulsby]

111. i am well aware of your points

but i consider abstinence a valuable CHOICE of strategy for teens (or anybody for that matter) to choose, from a sexuality standpoint.

whether or not teens are "supposed to" explore their sexuality is an issue for the individual teen. sure, they are biologically programmed to be sexually active, but the entire point of society is that we rise above our base needs/desires and make decisions based on our intellect, not our desires.

or at least we try.

i am evolutionary adapted to schtup every hawt wimmins with a pulse. but i don't do that, because morality takes precedence over biology

i am well aware of the evolutionary points you make. i have been slammed here before for introducing sociobology and evolutionary psychology and biology theories that run counter to many anti-scientific theories.

but your argument is based on a false premise.

abstinence is a CHOICE. prohibition was not a CHOICE. it was enforced policy, via the barrel of the gun.

so, they are not comparable.

i have worked with numerous juveniles in my many years of LEO and i have seen every aspect of sexual behavior you can imagine from 9 yr olds and up to include anal sex, oral sex, penile-vaginal sex, rape, etc. so, i'm well aware of what teens do. my favorite is when young boys steal their dad's viagra and stack it with ecstacy! teen boys are horny enough. imagine a teen boy on ecstacy AND viagra.

regardless, this has ZERO to do with prohibition.

this has to do with schools teaching about sexuality. and for me, that's from a MEDICAL not a MORAL standpoint.

regardless of what reasons one chooses to be sexually active or not , and whether one follows one's convictions or not, abstinence IS an alternative and should be taught in sexual education classes, just like other aspects of human sexuality should be taught.

i'm not aware of anybody who is proposing legally enforced abstinence for teens, so your prohibition analogy runs thin imo

[lindisfarne]

116. "the entire point of society is that we rise above our base needs/desires and make decisions based

on our intellect, not our desires."

Well, I guess to a point ... one should not act on one's immediate rage without thinking of the consequences. But carry that thinking too far and you end up with a society that has very twisted ideas. (Kind of like prohibiting alcohol to kids under 21 makes it taboo, so kids in the US are far more likely than kids in Western Europe to see getting plastered as the thing you do with alcohol, rather than enjoying wine around the dinner table with one's family).

Denying one's emotions and drives is generally going to be unhealthy psychologically and possibly physically. And no, I don't think evolution has led humans to want to hump every person of the desired gender in sight because you can't separate our higher mental processes from evolutionarily older drives - both result from evolution. You can help people learn to integrate the messages from both in a way which best works for them - for example, by teach self-respect & respect for others.

I don't see it so much as "teaching abstinence" as telling kids "you have the right to make the decision that is right for you - whatever that may be". "Teaching abstinence" is simply "not doing X" (however you define abstinence).

We can teach self-respect, self-confidence, respect for others, examining one's personal values; risks & benefits of sexual activity; where to get STD testing & contraceptives; what contraceptive options exist and how reliable they are; when to suspect an STD; that a female should not drink alcohol or use drugs if any activity she does puts her at a reasonable risk for getting pregnant or if she thinks she may be pregnant; what options exist if one gets pregnant and to immediately see a physician if one suspects one is pregnant (especially if one may not abort the fetus).

All of these may contribute to a person's decision to not have sex. But they do not add up to "teaching abstinence".

I guess if you feel it's important to tell kids "it's ok to say no", that could be construed as "teaching abstinence", but I don't see how it gets any more complicated than that. I think it's far more important to build self-esteem, knowledge, respect - and these will lead a kid to the decision that is right for him or her (plus empower him/her to make many other important decisions in life).

[paulsby]

154. i don't want to get into a long

psychological wank, but that's a big part of society - taboos, morals, religion, rules, law, etc. having a social contract and acting upon it, and not always acting upon what we want to do.

some contracts, like religion, etc. are voluntary. others, like the penal law, aren't.

abstinence is neither specifically a religious idea, nor is it involuntary.

it is an OPTION.

i disagree with you that teaching abstinence is mrerely telling kids "you have the right to make the decision that is right for you"

it's not

it's teaching that "making the choice NOT to engage in certain behaviors has certain benefits and here they are..."

it's still the kids choice. teachers can't make kids do ANYTHING outside the class, we both know that.

it's an aspect of human sexuality that i am in favor of teaching.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. Bullshit. She also thinks the Earth is 6,000 years old & Dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark.

Whether or not she, personally, is "pro contraception", the people who support her would like to see it outlawed.

[paulsby]

77. which is of course irrelevant to the claim

she has said, and she CONTRASTS HERSELF WITH MCCAIN on this issue, that she SUPPORTS teaching about contraception in schools.

as well as teaching about abstinence.

thus, the previous poster's claim was false, if understandable.

this is not about whether she is "personally" pro conception (which she is). the issue is does she or doesn't she support TEACHING about conception in public schools.

she has said she does, and same WAS done in alaska while she was governor, specific implementation or lack thereof was an issue for local school districts.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Funny, then, that the Jesus nutters love her so much more than McCain.

I wonder why that is.

[paulsby]

86. again, how is that relevant?

if you simply cannot admit an uncomfortable truth, then feel free to surround yourself with a comforting cloud of false convictions.

for fuck's sake, she has TONS of wacky views, but when it comes to teaching about contraception in public schools, she supports it.

it's really that simple.

[Prism]

119. Ugh, thank you

It stinks you have to bridle against the meta-narrative, but thank you for your work anyhow.

I have so many problems with Palin, I'm not sure where to begin. But using the abstinence canard to go after her and (more salient to me) her daughter, is one of those things I just cannot go along with. It angers me.

So thank you for your probably futile pushing of the truth against the ever convenient political myths.

It just kills me. Palin is so faulty in so many ways, but the false stuff gets all the oxygen. Why? The facts about her are mess enough. FFS.

[EndersDame]

18. This is why I hate political correctness

seriosly just a joke. I have made jokes like this amongst my friends .I went to an at risk high school that allowed pregnant students to attend classes and had on site day care. One group of sisters were notorious about using the schools day care or taking time off for maternity leave and we all joked about when their youngest sibling would get knockedup hell they even joked about it(oh wait knocked up is not politically correct how about contraceptively challenged)

[Luminous Animal]

22. If a grown man made a joke about another grown man

fucking my 14 year old daughter, or even my 17 year old daughter, I'd kick him in the balls.

[lindisfarne]

25. Hmmm .. but you've never turned your head to keep watching a woman at the beach without checking

her ID?

Most 17 year old girls are already "fucking", as you put it. So start looking for someone to kick. (And far too many 14 year olds are, or at least having oral sex). I say "far too many" not because I think it's inherently morally wrong, but because I think all too often, kids are using each other, and getting hurt over being used.

[EndersDame]

30. Hey I knew GIRLS and yes GIRLS who were mothers AT AGE 13

because they came from crazy catholic families who dont teach them about the birds and bees. "I can't get pregnant if I do it in the water" and "I cant get pregnant if I do it standin' up" (true words of wisdom from girls I knew at that High School)

[Luminous Animal]

33. Well, I am her mother.

And yes, I know that teenagers have sex. I have a teenager that has sex with her teenage boyfriend. But I would not abide any of my 40-50 year old male friends making jokes about fucking my daughter. Come to think of it. None of them would be crude enough to make a joke about fucking my teenage daughter.

[EndersDame]

27. Do you push your daughters in the spotlight

I think that Dave didnt know how old willow was (neither did i) but Palin has made a spectacle of Bristol and the whole laughable and hypocritical abstinence crusade. If she didnt want her daughters to be public figures and therefore be subjected to jokes she shouldnt have pushed them in the spotlight

[emilyg]

31. It doesn't matter what Letterman knew or did not

know. We shouldn't tolerate jokes that belittle women.

[lindisfarne]

35. Many jokes poke fun at men, many jokes poke fun at women. It's the nature of jokes.

Did you see the Saturday Night Live skits on Bush (#41 & #43)? Clinton (both H. & B.)
Humor very often belittles - or to some, merely pokes fun at - someone.

[Luminous Animal]

41. Bush and Clinton and Clinton are mature people

and the jokes made about them are age appropriate. Powerful adult men, do not make jokes about knocking up teenage girls. I suppose you think it's funny that Limbaugh called Chelsea the white house dog?

[Captain Hilts]

153. BINGO. nt

[Tx4obama]

59. emilyg

Sure we should.
Otherwise we women would not be able to tell jokes that belittle men ;)
Come on --- don't try to spoil all the fun for us women ;)

[Doctor_J]

152. He would have made the same joke if Barbie's offspring was a boy

He would have said, "And Fork Palin knocked up a local girl during the 7th inning"

He was ripping The Idiotess of Alaska, not the kid

[Luminous Animal]

36. So Bristol's mom is an ass, so Bristol

should be the butt of a joke from far more powerful man?

[EndersDame]

43. She is going along with that abstinence shit. . Hell Bristol is dangerous

It obviously didnt work and I think that hypocrisy is funny.Teaching kids only about abstinence leaves them thinking "Well I heard you cant get pregnant doin it standing up" (actual words spoken to me by class mate at my at risk high school)

[lindisfarne]

69. Should Bristol's mother be using the joke for political purposes? Which is worse?

A one liner about a daughter getting knocked up by a baseball player (no reference to said daughter being underage or it being non-consensual sex) or said daughter's mother using it for political gain?

[Captain Hilts]

141. But don't blame the kids for the parents. Leave Palin's kids alone. nt

[emilyg]

32. +1

[Prism]

24. There's a difference

The jokes we make among our friends are probably a lot different than the kind we would say in front of the entire country. Public vs private. Whatever we say in private doesn't matter too much. But if you've an audience of a couple million, well, whatever you say becomes a part of the national conversation, whether you intended it to or not.

So, there are rightly different standards.

[EndersDame]

53. that putsit in a different prospective but....

Bristol has gone on her own publicity tour (ie SHE put herself out there and all that entails with being a public figure) promoting very dangerous abstinence only education when clearly it didnt work out for her. I think that it is ok to point out hypocrisy in a humorous and scathing way

[Prism]

55. I understand that

But I can't help but feel it's sort of ex post facto with Bristol.

People were saying these things about her even before she was "out there" and it feels like an after the fact justification to me. I mean, there were certainly no shortage of threads or commentary about her saying the exact same things at a point in time when she was doing little more than meekly waving at campaign events.

And if Bristol were just some random teenaged mom speaking to people and not the daughter of the devil herself, I doubt anyone would be so interested . . . or so venemous.

[EndersDame]

76. I would have a problem if she didnt put her self out there

(with the whole tour and People Mag cover)Some of my Dem leaning friends said lots of shit about the Bush girls drinking underage which was fucked up because they didnt flaunt their "celebrity" If they had gone out on a anti alcohol publicity tour they would have been fair game

[Prism]

91. Hypocrisy is tricky

I mean, if we're being honest, a lot of "teaching" is done from experience.

Ex-alcoholics talk to AA. Ex drug addicts speak to DARE groups.

So, Bristol talking to teens about preganancy is in that similar vein. I see little hypocritical in what she does. She's saying "Learn from my mistakes," which is half the foundation of youth education when it comes to presentations on drugs, sex, etc.

That isn't to say I agree with her. Far from it. I believe in comprehensive sex-ed.

I just don't see how "OMG, she's talking to people about abstinence, what a hypocrite!" is germaine to the justifications for slamming her to death.

[EndersDame]

110. But you have to admit when you go on a publicity tour and become a national figure

you leave your self fair game for jokes on national television.

[Prism]

115. It's about discretion, I guess

She is on the national scene, yes. But, part of it is that we (collective we) dragged her kicking and screaming onto it. A politician's kids are, forgive the metaphor, a sideshow, and not much interest. We, the people, the media, the political animals, made Bristol a main event.

I do not think we should've. I thought it was unfair, and I thought the Bristol/Levi stories were just heinous. I thought they were as beneath us as anything anyone said about Chelsea or the Bush twins. I hated, hated, hated, hated every moment of commentary. I especially resented the constant, unbending, unrelenting commentary about "white trash" that these two teenagers engendered. We were not only bigoted, but classist. Just to fill things out.

Now, Bristol is a national figure, and we are partially responsible for putting her there. And no, I do not give credence to those who say Sarah Palin put her there by simple fact of saying "This is my daughter". Those people are, what's the word, assholes.

I can loathe Sarah Palin as a political leader as I surely do. I oppose her and everything she stands for.

But her kids . . .

Why do I have to explain this? Why does anyone have to explain this?

Why do I need to craft and present an argument for why adults should not slam to hell and back an 18 year old girl? Why is that necessary?

That it's necessary at all in our political speaks volumes, and none of it good, IMO.

[EndersDame]

122. The Bush Twins did not go on publicity tours

And I agree they shouldn't have had nasty jokes made about them. Bristol is 18 she could have said no to posing on the cover People Magazine. That is the difference.

[Prism]

129. But we have to be honest

No one would care what Bristol was saying if it weren't for her mother.

I do not believe in visiting the sins of the mother on the daugter.

But that is what we do. It's not right.

[EndersDame]

133. I have a problem WITH Bristol and the message she is preaching

I went to an at risk high school that allowed pregnant students to attend class and had a day care facility. I have known GIRLS who became pregnant as early as 13 because they were taught abstinence only and didn't have any reliable sex ed to teach them that yes, they COULD get pregnant if they had sex standing up or during the first time they had sex and other such nonsense.

[Prism]

136. There's a difference though

It's one thing to oppose Bristol's message, which I do. I'm probably exactly in line with you in regards to sex education.

It's entirely another to intimate she's a whore or a slut or easily knocked up or white trash, etc.

God, if only we were all held up to our teenaged sins. If I were held to what I did as a teenager, I'd not be able to talk to anyone about anything. But I made my mistakes, and I do, to this day, talk to youth about what I perceive as my youthful mistakes.

I think it'd be terrible if someone saw what I got up to and said "You have no right nor place talking to youth about sex, maturity, and valuing yourself." I'd be devastated if someone told me that. Because where I'm coming from is born from my mistakes and what I've learned.

Bristol, I think, is coming from the same place.

And while I disagree vehemently with her particular policy and approach, I'm not going to intimate she's a whore or a slut for doing what she's doing. Sorry, no. She isn't "fair game".

Because that "game" has everything to do with her mother.

If I, as a gay man, get to go in front of young people and say "Here's what I've learned, where I screwed up, how you can do better, how you can protect yourself," then Bristol can too. Even if her message is different.

And it doesn't make her some kind of prostitutional hypocrite to do so. It's not appropriate to say so, or right, or fair, or even vaguely progressive and human.

[EndersDame]

137. Well are jokes about the Jonas Brother's promise rings off limits?

or Britney Spears or Jessica Simpson saying in their early days they were saving themselves for marriage? Where is all the outrage for A-Rod certainly he must have been offended.Have you ever seen Dave Chapelle's skit were the crack head goes to a school and gives the Just Say No bit. Yeah it might have been offensive to recovering addicts (have known plenty of them in my life) but hell, it was funny.I don't think she is a whore or white trash i just think the joke was funny.

I dont want to live in society where no one can make jokes for fear of offending someone. That would truly be a sad day.

Aristophanes (one of Ancient Greece's most revered playwright) offended the Athenian Gov't and Euripides.Voltaire sure as hell offended the Christian establishment

[Prism]

145. An 18 year old is hardly any kind of establishment

You draw the line yourself. The jokes you cite are generally vs people in power. I'd like anyone to show me Bristol Palin is in power.

And, of course, the "It's just a joke!" defense is usually the last, thinnest line.

Because the greatest approval for such jokes come from people who don't actually think it's all that much of a joke. It's an on/off assignation of convenience. They'll say "Bristol, that slut." Someone objects. "Sorry, just a joke!" Which is expected to diffuse . . . well, what they actually think and feel.

People don't get to do that. Especially after ten or so months of expressing those sentiments in a non-joking manner. You can't call someone a whore, then a comedian calls them a whore, and then backpedal and go, "Tch, we're just kidding. But no, seriously, she's a big ole ho-bag."

I mean, maybe that works on a message board. But if someone tried that argument to my face, I'd have a few eyebrow shifts followed by, "Do you actually think I'm simple?"

Same thing here. We're all joking now? Uh huh. And what's the explanation for the last ten months of commentary? All jokes? Didn't sound like at the time. I must've misinterpreted.

[EndersDame]

147. I reserve my right to laugh at the whole promise ring /abstinence bullshit

I think it is hilarious whether it is coming from males (such as the jonas brothers) or females (Bristol or young Jessica Simpson) is peddaling that bullcrap. I don't think that Bristol or Sarah Palin are sluts(and i have never called them as such in my personal life or on the message board) just MEDIA Whores (and yes i will say that without apology) as well as deluded and insane individuals.


AS a 23 year old female I think that the more pressing issue is not sexism but, a comedian's divine right to call people out on their bull shit even if it is offensive and tacky (i will give you that the joke was pretty tacky.) I think that one day we wont be able to make even redneck or hillbilly jokes because they are too offensive and that will be a sad day.

[EndersDame]

173. She aligned her self with the establishment

Believe me the Abstinence Only crowd is. Especially here in Texas.

[noamnety]

117. A woman running for office leaves herself open for bigoted comments?

Gosh, you make it sound like it's her fault for being in public in the first place, like women wouldn't be targets of misogyny if they'd just learn their place and stay home.

Probably not exactly how you meant that to sound, but you are putting the responsibility for the sexist comments on her, instead of putting responsibility on the person acting like a bigot.

Would you say the same about Obama, that if he didn't want to hear racist jokes about himself, he shouldn't have run for office?

[lindisfarne]

120. Letterman didn't act like a bigot - all he said was that Palin's daughter got knocked up.

Tasteless, yes. (I've heard many, many tasteless jokes from many different sources).
Bigoted, no.
Palin is milking that comment for all it's worth (in fact, I and many millions (more than who saw the show) never would have heard the comment if it wasn't for her milking the situation for political purposes.

And her daughter is acting hypocritically if she's telling people "learn from my mistake". How can she know what is the right decision for another person? At best, she could say "If you don't intend to get pregnant but are having sex, there are these things called 'contraceptives' which can prevent pregnancy".

[Captain Hilts]

143. Yes, but not your kids. nt

[EndersDame]

144. Bristol the daughter went on it her self

preaching that dangerous shit

[Captain Hilts]

149. She is being used as a prop/pawn. Leave her alone .nt

[Captain Hilts]

142. BINGO. People here do not understand the differences between public and private language.

Among my friends I say all kinds of shit. But not in a public forum.

[Matariki]

168. It's alwasy 'political correctness' when the brunt of discrimination falls on someone else.

grow some sensitivity.

[gmudem]

23. So...about this whole Iran thing

I still don't understand why people are talking about this. Late night comedians make jokes like this all the time, the only reason people are paying attention to this one is because Palin so desperately craves attention.

Back in the real world, there are things like Iran devolving into martial law or something like it, and our country's health insurance system. Let's talk about htat.

[sfbabe3]

34. What if a "comedian" made a joke about raping the Obama girls or called Mrs. Obama "slutty?"

Would that be different, e.g., if someone made a "joke" about knocking up the Obama girls, e.g. a baseball player at a game they were at?

How about talking about Mrs. Obama's clothes, saying she looked "slutty" in an outfit or makeup?

And, when the comedian apologizes, he dissimulates and says well I really meant the older daughter, not the 14-year-old in the rape joke.

I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW OFFENDED WE WOULD BE OR OUTRAGED OF MRS. OBAMA WERE THE TARGET OF SUCH, ER. HUH? ..."JOKES."

One commenter brought up Chris Rock. What does he have to do with David Letterman's comments?

[lindisfarne]

39. What comedian has recently made a joke about raping an underage girl? See #17.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5850857&mesg_id=5850968

[Tx4obama]

56. Wrong !!!

The joke was not about an underage girl and it was NOT about rape.
It was about Bristol - who is an adult!

[Tx4obama]

42. Dear sfbabe3

The reality is that Mrs. Obama does NOT look like a slutty airline stewardess - but Sarah Palin does.
The Obama girls (who are young children) have never been knocked up - but Bristol Palin has been and she is an ADULT.
Bristol is over 18 years of age, a mother, and a public spokesperson for the Candies Company - she is FAIR GAME!

And ya just have to remember that jokes are not serious commentary -- THEY ARE JOKES!

p.s. I am a woman.

[Luminous Animal]

46. Really? Show me a picture where she looks like a slutty

stewardess.

[Tx4obama]

52. I'll find some in the morning, but in the meantime here's

a slideshow of her in her red 'hooker' shoes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/08/sarah-palins-toenails-wha_n_212863.html

Wink ;) Wink ;) You betcha ;)

[Luminous Animal]

62. Hooker shoes?

I hope you are joking.

[Tx4obama]

78. No, I am not joking

Those are not the type of shoes that any female political leader would wear if they wanted to be taken seriously.
They look like shoes that the hookers wore on Harry Hines Blvd. in Dallas in the 80s when they walked the streets!

[Luminous Animal]

89. You sound like the right-wingers

who got their panties in a twist when Clinton showed a little cleavage. Obama was photographed with his shirt off. No leader of the free world would do that and expect to be taken seriously.

For fuck's sake, they are regular old summer sandals. You could put a hooker in Obama's swim trunks and she'd still look like a hooker.

[Tx4obama]

92. Not true

John F. Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Reagan, the Bush boys were all photographed with their shirts off.
And I have seen the photo of HRC's cleavage in that one photo and that was NOT 'a little' cleavage - that was A LOT!
The shoes that SarahP has on in that photo are not 'regular old summer sandals' that a female politician would wear if she wanted to be taken seriously -- they are 'hooker shoes' ;)

[Luminous Animal]

98. And so it goes for women.

Stuck in a box so small there is no way to go but in circles.

[emilyg]

162. Gee- half of Atlanta

wears those.

[EndersDame]

50. I think that if one of the Obama girls got knocked up

and then went on a tour promoting abstinence only education it would be fair. Pointing out hypocrisy has been a tasked charged to jesters and clowns though out the ages

[Warren DeMontague]

54. I like how the one line joke has transmogrified into him "advocating rape of underage girls"

Christ. Methinks someone in the Womens Studies Dept. has been stuffing copies of Dworkin's books into the Bong and smoking 'em.

[lindisfarne]

57. No - it's not the women's study department. It's more political than anything - scholars carefully

read (listen).

[Warren DeMontague]

65. I'm sorry, I don't get what you're trying to say in that post.

It's ridiculous to infer that Letterman's joke was somehow about "rape".

And Palin's Daughter, Bristol, DID get "knocked up", and not only that, but her sex life was paraded in front of the country as an example of the wonderful world of Shotgun Weddings (well, there was going to be one, at least) that the GOP's "family values" bullshit would lead us back to. Not only that, but despite the obvious failure in her particular instance, her mother continued to promote Bristol as a "spokesperson for teen abstinence"...:eyes: So it's patently absurd to claim that her sex life should be "off limits" when it was MADE an issue during the political campaign by none other than her own family and party.

As for Sarah Palin looking looking like a "slutty flight attendant". This is cause for outrage? Give me a fucking break. Dick Cheney looks like Elmer Fudd and Bob Dole sells Viagra. Call the joke police!!!

[lindisfarne]

73. I was responding to your statement "Methinks someone in the Womens Studies Dept. has been stuffing

copies of Dworkin's books into the Bong and smoking 'em." and saying scholars are unlikely to twist a fairly straightforward statement the way Palin & others have managed to twist Letterman's statement.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. I gotcha.

Someone is flogging this thing for all the faux outrage it's worth, that's for sure.

[Tx4obama]

37. Conan and Leno got the free pass...

Where was Sarah Palin's outrage when others told jokes about her daughters?

This from Conan O'Brien:

"Sarah Palin is going to drop the first puck at the Philadelphia Flyers hockey game. Then Palin will spend the rest of the game trying to keep the hockey players out of her daughter's penalty box."--Conan O"Brien



And this from Jay Leno during the presidential campaign:

Gov. Palin announced over the weekend that her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is five months pregnant. And you thought John Edwards was in trouble before! Now he has really done it. -- "The Tonight Show With Jay Leno," 9/2/08


Letterman's joke was about Bristol and we all know it.
Mainly because hardly anyone at all (before this) even knew who Willow is.

Jokes are NOT reality. Letterman told the joke about Palin shopping at Bloomingdales and she was NOT at Bloomingdales.
He told the joke about BRISTOL and she was not at the game.
Anyone that can not understand that is not very intelligent ;)

[dorkulon]

38. Jesus H. Christ he's a comedian!

No joke could survive the kind of vivisection these have endured. Before we ban all jokes that cast unfair aspersions against any subset of humanity, I think we should all consider other comedians we think are funny. I think Chris Rock is funny. George Carlin too. Richard Pryor, Bill Hicks... all have made unfair jokes at someone's expense. And most of the time I laughed. But even if a particular joke isn't funny, it doesn't behoove anyone to make federal case out of it. David Letterman is not a politician, he is not a journalist. He's a goddamn comedian, and everyone needs to chill the fuck OUT.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. Sigh. Would that Bill Hicks were still alive.

He would make the heads of the Clucking, Finger-Wagging Nanny types explode.

[Baikonour]

85. He truly is needed in times like these.

The comedy police are out of control.

[Luminous Animal]

60. Jesus H. Christ - so everything he says is funny!

Get it! He's a comedian and you must laugh at comedians!

Dorkulon rapes goats! See that is a joke! Laugh damnit, I'm a comedian!

Nobody here is talking about banning jokes. Grow up.

[dorkulon]

64. I didn't say it was funny.

Comedians make bad jokes all the time. So what? I'm just saying they weren't particularly egregious and don't merit nearly the level of ire they've gotten.

BTW, all the goats I've had sex with were consenting adults.

[Luminous Animal]

66. Goats can't give informed consent.

Goat rapist.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Rick Santorum got his name turned into a term for a byproduct of anal sex.

Now, THAT was funny.

http://www.spreadingsantorum.com/

[Luminous Animal]

79. Indeed.

I'm with the late great Molly Ivins that humor is a weapon best wielded against the powerful. When used against powerless people (and Bristol is powerless), it's like kicking a cripple.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. Except, she's still being promoted as a "spokesperson for teen abstinence".

Her phony shotgun wedding was held out there as an example of the wonderful 1950s world the GOP and their "family values" crusade would drag us back to.

No, the true victims, the powerless here are the American people, who have been dealing for decades with a Republican Party headed by Theocratic Crazies who would put a police presence in our bedrooms and bodies. Abstinence only didn't work for Bristol, so why have we spent hundreds of millions of tax dollars on it? Why do we continue to? Why do we let these phony moralists continue to try to lecture us?

Bristol Palin is the victim? Bullshit. The Constitution is the victim, the American People are the victim, the victim of this crazy fucking Xtian Jihad of which Sarah Palin is a particularly noxious symptom. Bristol Palin's sex life became fair game because she exemplified exactly why the GOP's agenda is so full of shit. Same as when a gay-bashing politician gets outed.. the hypocrisy makes it relevant.

Maybe the joke was in poor taste, but it didn't occur in a vacuum.

[Luminous Animal]

93. Vacuum-wise, never said it did. But yes, it was in poor taste.

Knowing my own daughter over whom, even at age 19, I have a lot of influence... she still tries to please me, as I tried to please my parents when I was that age, I feel that Dave's joke was misdirected.

[EndersDame]

87. I know when was pointing out hypocrisy in a humorous way off limits

Hell I think it is a duty charged to every jester and clown!I could understand the "outrage" if Bristol didnt put her self out there but she went on a fucking publicity tour (making her self a public figure and all that entails) promoting dangerous abstinence only education

[Tx4obama]

68. Fools .. fools I tell ya

Anyone that thinks that Sarah Palin is offended by DL's 'joke' is a fool.
Palin is only in this for the free publicity.
She is not a supporter of women's rights.
She does not support a woman's right to choice.
She supports the billing to women in Alaska for their 'rape kits'.
She does not believe in sex education for our daughters.
She is a disgrace to the female gender and I can't wait for the day that she is off of the public stage!

[lindisfarne]

81. I disagree: she apparently supported "practical" sex education for her daughters. Just left out

the business about contraceptions and STDs.

[Tx4obama]

84. Hahahaha!

You can't talk sex education without talking about contraception and STDs.
Otherwise you end up with a daughter that is 'knocked up'.

[Tx4obama]

72. ASAP

David Letterman should file a defamation lawsuit against Palin for her implying that he is a pervert and a danger to minors.
He should sue her a$$ off.

[Baikonour]

83. A free pass for what? Telling jokes?

Last time I checked, that's been his job for the past 30+ years.

Conan and Leno both made "questionable" jokes about Palin and her daughter. Where was the poutrage then?

Also, this woman's little section of Salon is called "Broadsheet." Last time I checked, "broad" was a pretty derogatory term for a woman. Is she really helping her cause?

[Iggo]

103. No.

[Tx4obama]

106. A bit controversial but

I think that a big part of the problem in the USA is that kids don't have enough rights.
And the majority of the adults look at anyone that is under the age of 18 as a 'child'.

I know in the 70s that the majority of the girls that were in my school were having sex by the age of 16 (many starting at 14-15).
Luckily we had a sex education class in Illinois that covered just ABOUT EVERYTHING.

American 'people' once they reach puberty should have a RIGHT to be educated on all aspects of sexual education.
They should be taught everything regarding procreation, contraception, STDs, organ health, sexual and physical abuse, etc.

There is TOO much 'political correctness' going on in America today - and too much government control sticking their noses into the live of children.

There are schools that do not allow 'hugging' and 'high fives'.

A student can not even have a 'Tylenol' tablet on their person in some schools without being suspended from school.

Students are stripped searched without being charged with a crime or read their rights.

Students are being tasered in schools and even kids in the 2nd and 3rd grade are being handcuffed by policemen.

There are more issues that are not coming to mind at the moment, BUT in my opinion it is time for a MINORS BILL OF RIGHTS to be written and submitted to congress.

Signed,
A 50 year old white woman fed up with how things are.

[lindisfarne]

112. I read an article in which the author made a good case for this: the longer the average life span,

the longer adolescence will be. In short, the older folks don't want the young kids to take over. So we extend their childhood. 50 years ago, there were people at 18 with a kid, a farm, making adult decisions, figuring out how to make ends meet.

How many 18 year olds today do you know who could do that?

I'm not so sure I'd claim the religious fervor for abstinence is due to this because it's likely more about some abstract concept of "property rights" that laws against rape were originally based in (one's daughter had to remain pure so she could obtain a good marriage, possibly including a good dowry, but even a marriage without a dowry amounted to economic gain because someone else had responsibility for her).

But, there could be some interaction going on, with the first somehow reinforcing the second.

[Tx4obama]

118. In America

we put too many 'age limits' on everything and in my opinion it is hurting rather helping.

We tell the kids that have had sex and have conceived a baby that 'you are too young to get married and raise a family' so the children don't have to take responsibility for their actions. The parents or 'they' decide to have an abortion so that they can continue their education, etc. and they are told you must do this in order 'to have a better life later' ... but later on they don't really know how to be responsible for their actions and look for the 'easy way' out of any difficult situation. (no I am not saying that having an abortion is 'easy' but it IS a way out of taking responsibility for ones actions.

We tell the kids you are too young to smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol and they rebel by doing drugs instead since it is easier to get from their friends or on the street than it is to purchase cigs/beer from a store or gas station. But we let them to go war at 18 and die for our country.

We tell the kids, via the media, that if you are underage and do a crime then you will not be prosecuted to the full extent of the law as if you would be as an adult and your criminal records will be sealed and not affect you when you become an adult. This is wrong and it sends the wrong message to the youth of America.

----

My aunt came from Italy when she was a very young girl and married here in the USA when she was 14 years old. Of course this was a very very long time ago but she stayed married for over 70 years before my uncle died. He went to work everyday, was never in trouble with the law, he knew he had a family including six children to raise that was his 'responsibility' and they basically lived a very happy life - btw, neither of them graduated from high school and they never traveled out of my home town.

Something seems amiss here in America since the time I was growing up. The government has encroached on our freedoms (at a more early age) which has altered the mentality of some our young people. And the message now is 'you can be what ever you want to be' but the other message of 'sometimes you have to be who you are and take responsibility for the here and now' and that 'not everyone is going to be rich and prosperous' seems to not be there anymore. The dignity and integrity of the poor working man that brings his paycheck home to his family, grows the backyard garden, stays with his wife for his whole lifetime.. seems to be a thing of the past.

I am a 50 year old female living in modern society, but I grew up with my grandparents in a neighborhood of 'old folks' - and sometimes I have a very hard time trying to reconcile how things used to be with how things are now in the present ;)

[noamnety]

114. I'm at a loss here.

I don't know the proper response to someone pointing out that something in Playboy is sexist. NO! Really????

Ditto for Letterman. I don't watch him since he started doing dumbass "skits" that revolve around putting a bunch of scantily clad women on the set to exploit them. Really, he has no place complaining about Palin dressing "slutty" when things like this are a regular segment on his show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qfBVw5Ilcc (see last 30 seconds).

What do his comments about Palin imply about his views of his own employees in that skit?

If somebody is going to tell me they saw something sexist on Letterman, my first reaction is not so different than if they tell me they think they saw something sexist in Playboy.


Now, if I could just get to the point where I'm no longer surprised that a thread "in support" of someone making sexist comments gets dozens and dozens of recommendations at DU (despite the comments they are supporting being ones that are against DU rules!), then I'd have something.

[lindisfarne]

124. I found the Saturday Night Live skits about H. Clinton and Palin to be hilarious - and they had

sexist elements in them. So did the SNL skits about B. Clinton.
SNL skits about Bush-43 were essentially making fund of stupidity (as were the ones about Palin).
Ageist jokes were constantly made about McCain.

Are you criticizing Palin for playing the victim? (and milking the situation for every bit of political gain she can get?)

[noamnety]

125. I'm criticizing people making bigoted jokes

whether they are sexist, racist, or homophobic.

I'm discouraged that others aren't.

[lindisfarne]

126. This thread wasn't about bigoted jokes. n/'t

[noamnety]

127. because sexism isn't a form of bigotry? (nt)

[lindisfarne]

130. Bigotry. What exactly does that mean?

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset.

According to this definition, I may be bigoted. It depends on what is meant by "intolerant" or "takes offense".

I am intolerant of and take offense at people who think Creationism should be taught in the schools, and scientifically based theories should not be. Likewise, people who advocate for prayer in school.

I am intolerant of and take offense at people who argue against taxes, while benefiting from them (especially when it's a disproportionate benefit, such as the *sses who head Xe who benefited from 43's tax cuts while getting paid massive taxpayer money for their corrupt practices.

I am intolerant of and take offense at people who do not feel that health care is a basic human right for all, while enjoying access to health care themselves.

I am intolerant of and take offense at people like Bernie Madoff or the leaders of Enron or AIG or Citibank (or various sub-prime mortgage brokers who mislead people) whose actions destroyed many people's lives.

Do I have tolerance for a sexist joke? Well, not always, but very often, yes. Do I think Letterman's comments about Palin & family were bigoted? No. Do I think they were sexist? Not really. Were they a bit tasteless? Probably to most. Humor, especially when directed at public figures, often is. Were they beyond the pale? No.

Did I think some of the comments made about H. Clinton by political pundits were? Beyond a doubt, including some of Chris Matthews's comments. A factor in my decision was that they were political pundits - not comedians. Did some people think they were funny? Only those who hated H. Clinton. Being a comedian doesn't guarantee you can't make bigoted comments, however.

Do I wonder why this hullaballoo wasn't made to Leno's & O'Brien's similar comments? Yes. (Probably not politically as beneficial for Palin to make a big deal over them, so she didn't).

Do I think I'm bigoted? No. Despite the list of intolerances I made - which could easily be made much longer.

[Tx4obama]

132. lindisfarne

Very nice post.

[Apollo11]

151. Directing jokes against political candidates is one thing

Directing them against candidates children is another.

I agree with President Obama - children should be off limits.

In this case - Gov. Palin was accompanied on her trip to NY by her 14-year-old daughter.

So saying the joke was "not about the 14-year-old" makes NO SENSE at all.

Although it would still be out of line even if about the 18 year-old.

[Captain Hilts]

138. No, he didn't. But sexism is a main ingredient of late-night TV. nt

[librechik]

150. the jokes were appalling and I wish he had never said them

I bet he does too. They are nothing but trouble. Thank goodness they can't declare Letterman is an official representative of Lib Central. Not with any credibility. Made even worse by the mistake about Willow being there, not Bristol.

Feminists need to be more alert in the future to backsliding like this. We have been voiceless and powerless for years and years; that's one reason this happened.

[Blue_In_AK]

157. There is no proof that Willow was at the game.

None, nada, zero. The person in the tan jacket that is seen in the videos is Guiliani's wife. All the media reports refer to the "two couples," no mention of Willow at all. Sarah is the one who has made this about Willow.

[Apollo11]

164. There is plenty proof that Willow was in New York with her mom

There is no proof that Bristol was in New York last week. So it would be reasonable to assume that the "daughter" mentioned in Letterman's so-called "joke" was Willow - not Bristol.

[Blue_In_AK]

171. It would also be reasonable to assume

that the joke was about A-Rod. It was a JOKE.

[itsrobert]

174. Nope, it would be safe to assume that the joke was about the one daughter

who got knock up before. Only one daughter has gotten knocked up and that was Bristol.

[Fuzz]

158. What kind of country do we have when we protest the jokes and let the real shit slide?

[Rob Gregory Browne]

161. Oh, For God's Sake. Has Anyone Here Seen a Real Live Comedian?

Half of their job is to be offensive. Don Rickles, anyone? George Carlin? Lenny Bruce? Bill Maher? Half the guys on Comedy Central's standup shows?

It's rare for a comedian NOT to offend SOMEONE in the crowd.

Wouldn't it be a happy, shiny world if everyone was politically correct and never raised their voice or made an off-color joke? What the hell world are we living in?

[mitchum]

165. Your concern is noted

[Matariki]

167. Men on the left just don't get it. What a surprise.

I'm personally disgusted that this even has to be argued about here. And as always - you could have every woman on this board pointing out that jokes where the punch line is a woman's sexuality or looks are sexist and you'd still get a handful of loudmouth a jerks calling you 'hysterical' or 'lacking a sense of humor'

And 'hate fuck'??? I don't have words for that.