National Disease: Sociopaths in High Places.

[Cal33]

Hi All:

This is a fresh view of our national problems from another perspective:

National Disease: Sociopaths In High Places

People and the news media endlessly discuss the merits and demerits of those who are in high places and how they are performing in their jobs. It seems to me that not much emphasis has been placed on one very important factor: voters know too little about the character of the people they are helping to put into power. Incredibly, some have voted for candidates on the basis of, "he is one of those people I would enjoy having a beer with." Other reasons given have been even sillier and less relevant. This can be disastrous for our nation.

The news media could play a larger role in educating the public. More stress could be placed on signs of sociopathy, because, among the various misfits seeking high office, sociopaths are the most dangerous.
And most people are not even aware how dangerous they are.

What is sociopathy? Another name for it is "Anti-Social Personality Disorder," one of the eleven
Personality Disorders described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual-IV (DSM-IV) used by mental
health professionals, and it affects about 2% of the general population. A sociopath can be recognized
when he shows the following character traits:
1. selfishness, greed, aggressiveness;
2. exploitation, manipulation and violation of the rights of others;
3. a defective conscience, revealed by such traits as: pathological lying, deceitfulness, and a lack of
compassion for others in pain or difficulty;
4. a superficially charming personality that is often used to mislead, take advantage of and exercise
controlling power over others, ...etc...

People are usually attracted by and gravitate to those professions where their particular needs and desires can be more easily met and satisfied. This also applies to sociopaths:

A. Business executives: Corporations usually promote those employees who bring in the most profits. It also happens that those executives who are the most ruthless in their business dealings (and are smart enough not to get caught), are the ones who make the most profit for their companies. So, they have the best chances of being promoted. I'm willing to bet that the percentage of sociopaths among the higher business executives is considerably more than the 2% in the general population.

B. Politicians are well-known to speak from both sides of their mouths, and they do have power over others, even when they're supposed to serve them. Most of them are fine people, but here again I'm also convinced that the sociopaths among them number more than the 2% found in the general community.

I am sure sociopaths are found in every profession, but the above two are probably the biggies. Prisons have the highest concentrations of them all, since they are the ones who show the greatest disregard for the rights of others, and are also the ones who most frequently break the law.

Having a defective conscience, they don't feel badly about harming someone else. Lacking a sense of morality, they are not guided by it -- much like a two-year-old. The difference is that a two-year-old does not yet have any concept of morality, but a sociopath will hardly ever have an effective one. This is explained more in detail below.

A sociopath can learn that certain actions could land him in jail. He avoids them, not that he feels they are wrong, but because he doesn't want to be caught and punished. He is not capable of putting himself in
someone else's shoes and see things from the other's point of view, but he can be made to do something out of fear. This explains why he so often uses the tactics of fear and intimidation to get what he wants -- these being the main things he, himself, responds to. By the same token, if he feels confident enough of being able to avoid being caught, he will continue any action -- even a criminal one -- as long as it serves his purposes. He feels no guilt or shame, neither pride nor honor. He may acquire an intellectual concept of the meaning of the words, but these, too, are used by him only for his own advantage.

Psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg, who died some 30 years ago, is the author of the present-day widely used theory of the development of morality in children, who pass through successive stages of moral growth, from childhood on:

Stage 1: small child. To him it's "right" when he does what he is told by authority figures, and anything
is also the right thing to do if it can help him to avoid punishment.
........................................................
Stage 5: the "Social Contract level" where the older child begins to understand the concept of individual
rights, and follows laws as prescribed by the society in which he lives, and

Stage 6: the last and most advanced, where the adult individual is now being guided by his own conscience, which has developed according to universally accepted principles. An example of a Stage-6 universally accepted principle is "Reciprocity," which has become a part of the individual's conscience.

Reciprocity is aptly described in the biblical injunction, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." Sociopaths have never reached this last stage, their moral development having been arrested at
an earlier and more primitive one. Many have not even reached Stage 5. This could explain why they can exploit and abuse others without any sense of shame or remorse. They might not even understand what the fuss is all about when the offended party complains. However, they do object -- and very loudly -- when they, themselves, have been taken advantage of.

THE IMPORTANT POINT: They do not see any connection between their being abused by others, and their own abuse of others. This is one of the "defects" in their consciences. And I wonder if this could also be a cause for the radical and seemingly irreconcilable differences between the logic and reasoning of the sociopath and that of the non-sociopath. The very way they think and feel seems to be so different.

Intelligence does not play much of a role here. Sociopathy most likely developed as a combination of genetic inheritance plus environmental influences while growing up. So, can a sociopath really be blamed for being the way he is? I think not. But the fact remains that he can and does harm other people. And these other people also have the right to be protected from the sociopath's misdeeds.

I've recently read that a lab test has been devised that can objectively detect sociopathy in people. Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) is used. When the average person is shown a movie of cruelty, brutality, torture...etc..., the center for unpleasant emotions in his brain becomes aroused. And because of the increased brain activity, more blood goes to that particular area. This shows up in the MRI as an enlargement of the arteries supplying more blood to that part of the brain. Since the sociopath feels little or no compassion for others in pain, his MRI shows no such change. And this identifies him. Or, if he is also a sadist and enjoys the cruelty shown, the "pleasure center " (which is in a different area of the brain) becomes aroused. This is also identifiable in the MRI.

Is it possible that the above might lead to a compulsory testing of all future candidates for high positions -- whether public or private? Hardly! Why not? Tests may be helpful, but they are not fool-proof. And
there is also the question of the invasion of one's civil liberties.

I believe that the actions of the Bush Administration over the past eight years are strongly indicative of
sociopathic traits. Let's look at a few examples:

a. Lying our nation into an illegal and immoral war against Iraq for that nation's oil. (Lying, greed, deceit, fraud, robbery, mass murder -- 4,000+ American military, unkown numbers of Iraqi military, and 1,300,000+
innocent Iraqi civilians killed caught in the fire)
b. Torturing of prisoners, which is against our own national laws as well as those of the Geneva Convention.
(Violation of others' rights, total absence of human compassion, and sadism)
c. Awarding no-bid government contracts to favored business corporations. (Corruption, waste and misuse
of taxpayer money)
d. Allowing business corporations to do as they pleased, without supervision, resulting in the large-scale
corruption and economic disaster that our nation and the world are facing today. (Greed, deceit,
massive corruption, stealing from the people) ...and on and on... ad infinitum.

From the above we see that when sociopaths get into positions of power, they'd try to enrich themselves through any means. SOCIOPATHY is the PERSONALITY OF THE CRIMINAL (although not all criminals are sociopaths). Fomenting trouble lies in the core of its very nature. And sociopaths can be found in all political parties - but the Bush Administration seems to have been the place where too many high-placed sociopaths have found their own true home.

With sociopaths in power, the conclusion can hardly be avoided that there always will be wars. They cannot resist the urge to violate other people's rights and to rip them off, when they smell profit in the air. And their victims, of course, sooner or later will fight back. The Bush Administration attacked Iraq, a small country of 27 million people with no ability to do us harm. Just imagine having a major war with a powerful nation! With the science and technology of today, there might be NO WINNERS, ONLY LOSERS! I don't think we're ready to self-destruct yet, are we?

Yes, sociopaths are simply too dangerous! One way of having fewer of them in high places is by way of the vote. To this end, new fool-proof election laws have to be enacted. They are an absolute necessity! Without them democracy will not survive for long.

Honest elections represent only one method of reducing their numbers in government, but they do not touch the people in PRIVATE INDUSTRY. And we have seen above how sociopaths in government and private industry come to the aid of one another in their quest for more profits -- which is exactly what happened to excess during the disaster-filled years of the Bush Administration. Half a centruy ago Eisenhower warned the nation to beware the dangers of the Military/Industrial Complex, but we did not heed him. This double-whammy assault from the sociopaths in both government and private industry was too much for the American people to absorb, and our present global economic chaos is the result.

What to do about the sociopaths who exercise such a strangle-hold power on business in the private sector? Congress, of course, could enact fair but strict laws, without loopholes, to prevent dishonest practices. But big business, as usual, will fight to the death against such attempts. And we know how
successful their lobbying, propaganda and money can be.

There probably are other effective ways of shaking loose the death-grip sociopaths have on our nation. I wonder if a combination of experts from different fields, such as economists, lawyers and mental health porfessionals experienced in the area of sociopathy, might work together in looking for answers on how to deal with the large-scale corrupt practices of business corporations. This will be a long, slow and arduous process. The sooner it gets started, the better. The very life of our nation as a free society is at stake.

I hope more of us will become aware of this vast problem and recognize it for what it is -- a nation-wide disease that has a devastating effect on every single one of us -- man, woman and child. It is our national sickness. And sociopaths are not about to cure themselves by changing. They cannot change their ways, but we can change ours. We must find the means to effectively curtail their numbers and influence in high places -- regardless of party affiliation. Not to do so would be to fail in our duty to ourseves, our children and all future generations.

Many of us do not yet see this dangerous and pervasive cancerous growth for what it really is. Does the above presentation sound logical to you, that it is the misdeeds of the high-placed sociopaths in both the public and private sectors that are a main cause of the economic and general chaos in our nation and elsewhere today - and over the past centuries as well?

If you agree with the above, would you pass this message along to your friends, and ask them to do the same?
I don't think we can afford to wait much longer.

[opihimoimoi]

1. We DUers been aware of this years ago...them bullies were ID'd by many shrinks

These SP's are close akin to NPDs, Abusers, and serial Bullies....

That they are in high places tells us we need better filters...

[Cal33]

2. "We DUers were aware of this many years ago...."

But many years ago we did not have the power, the sociopaths did. Now it's our
turn again. We have the opportunity to really reform ourselves into a great, decent
and respected nation again; at the same time reducing the numbers of sociopaths holding
high positions. In order to have our nation humming along smoothly, it is a prerequisite
that we have a decrease in the numbers of these irresponsible and destructive people
from our midst. If you know of any other options, I'd gladly listen.

[opihimoimoi]

7. My post sez we need better filters...the elections is our defacto filter

The Nation needs an upgrade in the Astuteness Level...The Nation could use a CIVIC COURSE paid for by the Dem Party....we seem to have the least amount of "sociopaths"....

Clever ads can do it as a starter

[AlbertCat]

29. Clever ads can do it as a starter

Education is an even better starter.

But I suppose it will take ads to make "knowin' stuff" cool again. Actually the personal computer is helping a lot to get there. And spots like Rachel Maddow's "Moment of Geek". And all those science stations on cable. Not to mention kooky over the top Repugs and Neocons being so absurd that people who like a kinda schadenfreude humor get enjoyment out of thinking things through and being sensible at the expense of dummy Congress people and pundits. The GOP has been nutty for so long that reason seems hip and refreshing.

[Cal33]

64. Yes, clever ads, education. It seems a center where all this

information and ideas can be gathered and looked at, and worked on, could be formed.
But how and where? Right here in this forum, with a private URL, if necessary? Is there
anyone who has the expertise to do this sort of thing?

[Cal33]

63. Yes. These are good ideas. The big question is how to

get organized and start on them. It would probably be good to have one center
to take care of getting organized first, and then putting these and other ideas
into action.

[Cal33]

82. Better "Filters."

We've known since the 2000 election that the electronic voting machines could be
manipulated. In 2004 the CEO of one of those voting machine factories
boasted that he was going to deliver Ohio to Bush - and he did!
Now, 9 years later, many states still use those machines. I think it's
already too late. They can't all possibly be replaced in a yaear and 4
months.

10 years is a good amount of time. Dems. have been too lackadaisical.
They have no one else to blame but themselves!

Voting machines are only a part of the right-wing dirty tricks,
of course.

[Cal33]

88. Even though these bullies were ID'd by many shrinks years

ago, they still continued their bullying tactics. Nothing had changed.
And it seems nothing will change them unless they are made to pay a price
for their misdeeds. That is the only thing to which they would respond -
if they had to pay a price. Otherwise, they'd only laugh at you. The
only thing they respect is the unpleasantness of having to pay a price. It's
unfortunate, but that is part of their primitive character.

[Doc_Technical]

3. One of my favorite Mark Twain quotes:

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run
by smart people who are putting us on or
by imbeciles who really mean it."

[glitch]

5. That is a great quote from Twain, but there is an addendum to your sig line.

To be is to do. Do be do be do.

[AlbertCat]

30. I like it even better when you apply the "authors"

To be is to do - Socrates
To do is to be - Sartre
Do be do be do - Sinatra

[glitch]

32. Me too - actually it;'s the only joke I've ever been able to remember

Only I heard it as To be is to do - Camus
:hi:

[magellan]

34. I have a t-shirt that says that. :-) n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

36. Do be a Do Bee --

Miss Connie, Romper Room

[Cal33]

100. And sometimes the world is being run by imbeciles who

don't really care about anything else other than to stuff their pockets
with ill-gained profits.

[CitizenPatriot]

4. excellent!!! thank you!!! nt

[Cal33]

10. Sociopaths in High Places.

You are very kind. Thank you.

[CitizenPatriot]

11. I've been studying this for a while now

and I couldn't agree more...We used to think there weren't that many of them, but stats suggest there are between 4-5 million DSM qualified sociopaths among us.

I know a few...:-)

[Cal33]

65. Well, there are 300 million plus Americans. 2% of that would

come to 6 million. And, if we don't count the children, it does come to 4-5 million
of them. So you are quite correct. :o)

[Cal33]

101. By the way, what does "nt" stand for?

[RufusTFirefly]

6. Welcome to DU, Cal33. Intriguing post!

I've long been concerned that sociopaths are a major cause of what's wrong with the country.
Corporations, of course, are almost by definition sociopaths. (See The Corporation) But I think that many of the individuals in positions of power seem to exhibit sociopathic behavior.

And let's face it: They're difficult to oppose. If you are burdened with a moral braking mechanism that makes you hesitate or feel guilt in morally/ethically complex situations and you're up against someone with no such qualms, it's not a fair fight.

I've always been somewhat envious of sociopaths. Imagine how liberating it must be to have no conscience!

[Cal33]

9. Sociopaths in High Places

" And let's face it: They're difficult to oppose. If you are burdened with a moral braking mechanism that makes you hesitate or feel guilt in morally/ethically complex situations and you're up against someone with no such qualms, it's not a fair fight. "

It does look that way until we come across someone like Gandhi, who had been beaten half to death many times in the prisons of South Africa, and later in India. Gandhi didn't care what happened to his body. He stuck to
his principles, and eventually prevailed. More recently Nelson Mandela had been imprisoned 27 long years
in South Africa, also for political reasons. He, too, eventually prevailed.

I'd also say that there aren't many Gandhis and Mandelas around. But such epic figures aren't necessary
in the present USA. Our situation is different, and certainly not as drastic as the ones Gandhi and Mandela
found themselves in. The job can be done.

[Cal33]

68. I really wonder how you would feel having no sense of morality

to guide you in your choice of behvior, not feeling any guilt when you have financially ruined someone and his entire family, by
having stolen from him his entire life-savings. Well, a sociopath would feel no remorse at all. He'd feel pretty good, as long
as he is not caught. Let's begin with you being still you, would you choose for yourself the lack of a conscience and this way
of life just to have the liberating feeling of someone without a conscience, knowing you would cause irreparable damage (perhaps the deathof someone in the family of the person you stole from, because he'd then not have enough money to pay for a treatable illness)?

[Alameda]

8. Thank you for verbalizing what I feel. Yes, I agree, but I think

some are actually psychopaths. Wikipea has a good section on it...the matter...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Relationship_to_sociopathy

[Cal33]

12. Sociopaths in High Places

Thank you. If you googled "Bush and Sociopathy," you will find some 50,000 articles!

[Cal33]

19. "some are actually psychopaths..."

True. Some are actually psychopaths. It is a matter of degree, although
people also use the words interchangeably. Wording is not all that important.
What is important is that they do harm people and they do harm our nation.

What can we do to fight back their cancerous spread? Time isn't on our
side. For one thing, spread the word among your friends, and ask them to do
the same. This can be considered as a "counter-spread" to their spread of
cancer.

[applegrove]

13. I'm so happy they have accurate tests for them now. I hope and pray that

in the future no sociopaths get into positions of power. The world would do well to require a means test of leaders. It would help in Africa too. But I don't have much hope it will happen any time soon.

[Cal33]

16. Sociopaths in High Places.

Hi Applegrove:

It seems likely that if testing takes place at all, it would be on a voluntary
basis, not mandatory. First of all, these tests are not fool-proof, and then
there is the question encroaching upon one's civil liberties. It doesn't look
likely that they will play any great role.

What is attainable is that news media played more of a responsible role in
letting the public know the important data about a candidate -- such as
his known character traits. We, the public, can let the media professionals
know that we want that kind of information. We have been fed a lot of baloney
much of the time, and it will remain so, unless we demand otherwise.

[applegrove]

20. Welcome to the DU Cal33!

:hi:

[kojak]

14. Why do you hate winners and their success?

Is it their fault they are willing to do what it takes to win and succeed? If you would stop worrying about ethics and morals, you too can accomplish the great things in life like those whose actions you are lambasting. Yes, I am being sarcastic for those who would think otherwise. This national sickness is born from our culture that values success and winning above all else. It's easier to win when you are willing to cheat and do other immoral and unethical deeds to accomplish your goals.

[Douglas Carpenter]

15. I'm glad you clarified you were being sarcastic

but yes it is true that to a large extents society can and does quite frequently reward sociopathology and punish empathy and sympathy.

When I think about how this might relate to politics, much of what goes on in the world of "campaign consultants" appears quite sociopathic.

[Joe Chi Minh]

26. You're just "a bunch of sore losermen"! This article is interesting, too:

http://uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/abb2282c-badb-464e-a08f-5bc8e63b1fd9

[Cal33]

83. Thanks, Joe. I think Kojak meant something positive, even

though he expressed it in a negative way.

[Cal33]

17. National Disease: Sociopaths In High Places

What you say is very true. We are taught from childhood onward that winning
and success are above everything else -- above honesty and fairness. How
many athletes illegally use drugs to enhance their performance? Sheer
gross materialism is in its hay-day right now -- with all its accompanying
competition, greed and ugliness. Sports for health is secondary, if it counts
at all. It's unfortunate, but that is the way it is. Does anyone see any
change on the horizon?

I forgot the name of the industrialist who said some 60 years ago: Competition
brings out the best in the quality of goods, and the worst qualities in human
beings.

[tomreedtoon]

24. It's not about winning. It's about not being a LOSER.

And frankly, most of us, in this era and in this country, are losers. We are told so continually. Our media tells us who the winners are, and guess what? We ain't there.

Yes, you can propose alternate meanings of "win" and "lose," but the only one that matters is the one that the culture endorses. And by that standard, most of us ARE losers. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Cal33]

85. And who are those people in our culture who endorse who wins

and who loses? Are their opinions always agreed to by the people, or
are differences allowed?

[PassingFair]

25. They're willing to kill for power.

Psychopaths for sure.

Here is Kurt Vonnegut's take:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/44/

snip>
I myself feel that our country, for whose Constitution I fought in a just war, might as well have been invaded by Martians and body snatchers. Sometimes I wish it had been. What has happened, though, is that it has been taken over by means of the sleaziest, low-comedy, Keystone Cops-style coup d’etat imaginable. And those now in charge of the federal government are upper-crust C-students who know no history or geography, plus not-so-closeted white supremacists, aka “Christians,” and plus, most frighteningly, psychopathic personalities, or “PPs.”

To say somebody is a PP is to make a perfectly respectable medical diagnosis, like saying he or she has appendicitis or athlete’s foot. The classic medical text on PPs is The Mask of Sanity by Dr. Hervey Cleckley. Read it! PPs are presentable, they know full well the suffering their actions may cause others, but they do not care. They cannot care because they are nuts. They have a screw loose!

And what syndrome better describes so many executives at Enron and WorldCom and on and on, who have enriched themselves while ruining their employees and investors and country, and who still feel as pure as the driven snow, no matter what anybody may say to or about them? And so many of these heartless PPs now hold big jobs in our federal government, as though they were leaders instead of sick. <unsnip

[Cal33]

43. You are right. And they have killed for power.

Yesterday I saw in the evening news a poll on the use of torture. 48% were against it. 41% were for it.
And I suppose 11% had no opinion. 41% of us were FOR TORTURE! This is an incredibly high number. I
can hardly believe that so many of us still have the primitive mentalities of the dark ages. Remember
the ancient Romans throwing Christians and slaves to the lions, or, later, the Christian churches,
after prolonged torture, were burning alive those they claimed to be "witches" at the stake?

After so many centuries, 41% of us have not yet evolved out of that primitive, sadistic state of mind!
It is revolting. I feel ashamed.

[Cal33]

79. Yes, an incredible amount of emphasis is being placed on

our young people, winning in sports, for example. And this follows them to college. Winning is the only thing that counts.
Guess what is behind much of this? Money!

[CoffeeCat]

18. It's not just the fault of the sociopaths...

It's obvious that sociopaths and psychopaths have a stranglehold on politics and the
corporate world. There will always be people like that running around and making life
hell for others.

The only solution is that good people must never, ever shut up when it comes to this
malarkey. Refuse to take the bullying and don't go into denial when you see it.

Look at the Fundies. Right now, their biggest crime is denial. They just love, love, love
that people like George Bush, Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin are with them on Jesus, fetuses
and "family values". They're so blinded by the soundbytes, and the validation--that they
ignore who these people CLEARLY are. They look past illegal wars, murder and torture--so they
can feel warm and fuzzy because someone important validates their personal belief system.

These people damn well better wake up and realize that these ruthless, warmongering, sociopathic
leaders are not religious, nor do they give one whit about unborn babies or "family values". These
politicians spew the soundbytes to cull votes from the unsuspecting Bible followers. They are being
used.

Sociopaths only gain power if we remain in denial about their crimes. They only continue in power
if we remain silent or look the other way or don't want to face the fact that the reality we've
invented---is a bunch of bunk.

Silence and denial turn our country into a giant petri dish that enables pathological personalities
to flourish.

[Cal33]

22. Nat'l Disease: Sociopaths in High places - Help Fight Back

Hi Coffee:

I am almost totally in agreement with what you've written. There is this part about the
fundie believers had better "wake up" though. I suppose some of them eventually do, but
the majority of them don't. They can't. They're too frightened by the hellfire and
damnation bit (among other things) that they've been taught from childhood on, in order
to wake up and change. Their minds have been regimented. They love having authority
reassuring them that what they're doing is right - as you've already noted.

I'm sure you have also noticed that Republicans tend to be more in lock-step with their
party than Democrats are? A lower percentage of them tend to think independently than
Democrats do. They make good soldiers or members of religious orders where unquestioning
obedience is highly stressed. Outside of being one-track minded (which covers a lot of
ground and is a hard thing for most people to deal with), most fundies are not sociopaths.
I think of them more as victims of circumstances than anything else. Yes, they are
being used by their leaders, some of whom themselves are also victims of circumstances.
Some others of their leaders are out and out sociopaths.

The important thing is: How do we fight back effectively? The knowns are (1) Honest
Elections. We are far from it, in spite of all the bitter lessons from 2000 on.
(2) We should be able to really "know" the candidates before we vote them into office.
We are also far from achieving this point. (3) Make more demands on our congressmen
to enact laws that are fair and without loopholes. Try to get more people involved
in the political process. (4) Develop a MASS COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEM that will IMMEDIATELY
and REPEATEDLY point out all the LIES and DIRTY TRICKS the sociopaths are famous for, and
what they are trying to achieve with them. Let it also be broadcast loud and clear, when
possible, how to deal with and counteract them.

Just these four items mentioned above are already huge challenges that will take an
incredible amount of time and effort to put into effect. Sociopaths, of course, will be
raising obstacles every step of the way.

It would be great if more people in this forum were to join in with their ideas of how
to fight back. Don't you think?

[earth mom]

21. I agree with you but would add that the majority of the GOP are sociopaths as well as those who own

the media.

Anyone who cheerleads killing people in Iraq, which is a War based on a LIE-fundies included-is a sociopath. No doubt about it.

The media has had their own very diabolical part to play in the killing of people and the twisting of minds across this country by airing the likes of Limbaugh, O'Lielly and the rest of the monsters on Faux News, etc.

They are all foul disgusting hateful creatures. NOT human at all.

:puke:

[Cal33]

35. National Disease: Sociopaths in High Places. Help fight back.

It does look that way, doesn't it? I think it mainly shows that large numbers
of sociopaths have already established themselves in high places. They have
all the visibility and make all the noise. And they do have large numbers of
followers, many of whom are simply non-thinking fans. I think most of these
fans are not sociopaths. If in everyday living they came across a situation
where they had a choice of doing a personal kindness to someone in need, and no
profit is involved, they'd do it. A sociopath wouldn't. It's mainly in
politics that their minds are screwed up.

It is true though how much influence these sociopaths in high places have
over how our country is run on a day to day basis. We should fight back.

If we could come to the point of having a mass communications system where we
could immediately point out each of their lies and dirty tricks, tell the
people what these sociopaths are trying to accomplish with their lies and
dirty tricks, and let them know the truth ... and repeatedly, because saying
something only once does not sink in with most people ... then I think, they
will begin to lose their fans.

[EOTE]

23. Great post. And welcome to DU.

And I agree 100% with what you say. The question remains, what CAN be done to curtail their numbers and influence? I haven't read the entirety of this thread yet, but I'm interested in hearing what your suggestions may be. My dad made a similar post a while back about sociopaths involved in politics. His post was about a book called "Political Ponerology - A Science on the Nature of Evil Adjusted for Political Purposes". Unfortunately, the post was moved to the 9/11 dungeon, so I don't know how much exposure it got. I think you'd find it to be an interesting read if you give it the time:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x200546

[Cal33]

27. Nat'l Disease: Sociopaths in High Places. Help fight back.

Thank you for your welcome and kind words. In a previous msg. to CoffeeCat, in which he
asked a question that is similar to yours, I gave a reply which I'm repeating here:

The important thing is: How do we fight back effectively? The knowns are (1) Honest
Elections. We are far from it, in spite of all the bitter lessons from 2000 on.
(2) We should be able to really "know" the candidates before we vote them into office.
We are also far from achieving this point. (3) Make more demands on our congresspeople
to enact laws that are fair and without loopholes. Try to get more people involved
in the political process. (4) Develop a MASS COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEM that will IMMEDIATELY
and REPEATEDLY point out all the LIES and DIRTY TRICKS the sociopaths are famous for, and
what they are trying to achieve with them. Let it also be broadcast loud and clear, when
possible, how to deal with and counteract them.

To the above I am adding: (5) Establish a special "Think Tank" composed of people from
various professions and walks of life, and really work on how the numbers of sociopaths
in high positions (both public and private) could be decreased. I guess lawyers, MBAs and
mental health people experienced in dealing with sociopaths should be included.

It would be nice if members of this forum would join in with their suggestions on how to
deal with this problem.

[missemc2]

28. Don't forget the talking heads on teevee

I think Glenn Beck is certifiable. Bill O' and Rush Limbaugh, as well.

[Cal33]

38. National Disease: Sociopaths in High Places. Help fight back.

Agreed. I think they are. :o)

[Karenina]

31. THE U.S. gubmint is controlled by its CORP and MIC "class"

These entities are not just sociopathic, they're PSYCHOPATHIC And you wonder why Obama is showing signs of... WHATEVER...

[Cal33]

39. I am sure that some of them are. Yes, they are giving Obama a

hard time, no doubt about it. And he was already working overtime for nearly
two years as a candidate before his presidency even began! What energy and
determination he's got! And some Democrats are beginning to express
disappointment at what he has done so far(in 5 months). I say, give him time.
The Republicans' job, of course, is to make it as tough as possible for him.

I wonder how the Democratic Congressional leaders were so timid and afraid
when the Republicans were in power. Rarely did they raise a squeal. They
still seem to be timid and afraid, even today! What's going on?

[Quantess]

33. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Cal33]

40. Thank you for your welcome. And a big Hello to you.,

[edc]

37. For further reading in this area

an interesting source is (Political Ponerology: A Science on The Nature of Evil adjusted for Political Purposes by Andrew M. Lobaczewski), although I can not vouch that it has been peer reviewed.

[Cal33]

46. Thanks for the information. I'll look up "Political Ponerology."

"Nature of Evil." The word "evil" has a religious tone to it. I try to avoid the
word, since we should avoid mixing religion and politics whenever possible. This
is exactly what the right-wingers are doing to attract the votes of the fundamentalists.

[Norrin Radd]

41. I doesn't help having all of these hierarchical structures,

which are breeding grounds for sociopaths with power.

[Cal33]

76. It doesn't help having all these hierarchical structures

Maybe a few, but they'll be booted out before long. I think more good would
result in the long run.

[L0oniX]

42. I suggest we change the name of the repukes to the Sociopath Party.

[Cal33]

45. A good idea. Just recently the Republicans were trying to

change the name of the Democratic Party to the "Socialist Democratic Party."
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, Eh? :o)

[Cal33]

87. The Repubs. have nothing positive to offer the American people,

so instead of talking about real issues, they just try to
lead their followers around with slogans. And it's even
more surprising how many people are led by slogans. These
are the ones who find thinking for themselves too much work.
So yes, "The Sociopah Party" will rile the hell out of them.

[Fumesucker]

44. A quote I think is apropos to this thread..

"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted." - Frank Herbert


And a book to read..

http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Ph-D-Martha-Stout/dp/0739456741

As the title says, this is a must read book for everyone (that is, everyone who is not a psychopath). The only thing I don't like about it is the use the word "sociopath" instead of "psychopath". But it is a very minor flaw in a great book.

Traditionally, books on psychopathy were mostly about the inmate population, serial killers and so on. That creates a dangerous sense of complacency. After all, the psychopaths are easily recognizable brutal killers and they have all been locked up in high-security prisons, right? Unfortunately, it is not so.

In this book, Dr. Stout has done a great service for humanity in describing, persuasively and chillingly, the psychopaths that are among us. They can be anyone, from a successful and ruthless executive to the neighbor next door. Statistics shows that one in 25 people are psychopaths and they cannot be easily recognized even by experts.

What makes the psychopaths dangerous is that they have no conscience whatsoever. No remorse, no empathy, no emotion to constrain any of their acts even if the act causes great harm to their closest family members. And because of the same characteristics, they are often very successful in our society

[Cal33]

49. I have placed this book on my reading list.

Thanks for the info.

[Echo In Light]

47. Official Culture - A Natural State of Psychopathy? by Laura Knight

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm

[Cal33]

56. Official Culture

"July 30, 2003: KAH - The subject of the extremely narrow point of view of most Americans as opposed to the majority of other peoples in the world came up in a conversation the other day. The people having the conversation were, as it happens, mostly American. One of them commented that Americans had been "programmed" to their point of view by mass media propaganda for a very long time and that it was simply a very normal part of American life and basically, always had been. She concluded, "Whoever denies it is either ignorant or has an agenda."

That may be so. It may be true that the "pied pipers" of denial have an agenda. But what, then, does one say or do about the ignorance of the vast majority of Americans? Why and how is it that the trap of Fascism is closing on them before their very eyes and no matter how many voices - the number is increasing every day - are raised to point out this danger, they simply do not seem to get it?.............."


A contributing factor may be the fact that much of America, a huge nation, is physically so distant from
even her closest neighbors, Mexico and Canada. In a sense we are isolated. I've lived in Europe, where
all one has to do is to drive for a few hours, and one is in a different country, where a different
language is spoken, and there is at least some change in customs. The result is that in Europe one
can't help but become more aware of "others," who have different ways. It's natural for them to become
more informed. But they, too, have their problems.

Yes, too many Americans have the notion that "we are the biggest and the best," fed, in part, by the media,
and corporate propaganda.... We have become more fascist. I still can't get over what I recently read,
that 41% of Americans favor torture! That is an incredibly high percentage for a "civilized" people. We
are going backwards morally and culturally. It seems to me that sociopaths in high places have much to do
with this backward slide!

We've got to sound out loud and clear what sociopaths are doing to the moral fabric of our nation!

[Echo In Light]

48. Official Culture - A Natural State of Psychopathy? by Laura Knight

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm

[Cal33]

99. Wow! This is quite an article - long, but well worth readingl

I've not come to the end yet.

[Uncle Joe]

50. I believe if evolution holds true and societal dynamics don't change that 2% of the

general population will increase, until the society collapses upon it self.

Maybe that's the historical evolutionary purpose; of sociopathy in causing humanity to continually reboot it self as a primitive means to keep from becoming stale and inbred?

Empires rise and fall and I would bet there is a direct correlation to the rise and fall of sociopathy in those previous societies, Rome rotted from the inside out long before it was sacked.

Personally, I hope humanity can evolve past sociopathy as this path in the long run would surely lead to humanity's ultimate destruction.

Thanks for the thread, cal33 and welcome to D.U.:hi:

[Cal33]

53. Many thanks for your welcome, Uncle Joe.

If the 2% of sociopaths in the general population will increase, I think it will do so slowly. And things
are changing fast today, especially in science and technology. (Let me first repeat here that sociopathy most
likely is a result of both genetic inheritance as well as environmental influences during one's growing
years). I wouldn't be surprised if genetic engineering could reach such a point that some day parents might
have children with qualities, both physical and mental, made to order (so to speak). I know I am indulging
in a little flight of fancy here.

Wouldn't most people want their children to be healthy, intelligent, good-looking, tall...etc...? If we
should survive long enough without self-destructing, isn't it possible that the genetic portion of sociopathy
could be eliminated in the future? As for the environmental influences, they will be different, depending upon
the experiences of each individual. And sociopathic cases, even if not entirely eliminated, could become
decreased in number and milder in degree.


If the above does not happen soon enough -- which will most likely be the case -- yes, it does appear that history
will be repeating itself. And with the weapons of mass destruction that we already have today, sociopaths will
see to it that we do self-destruct, even though they don't really mean to do it !!!

[aldo]

51. Amen, Brother/Sister

Torture attracts them like shit does flies.

[Cal33]

54. Judging from the past, the present generation must have

inherited some taste for blood. 1. We know enough about the ancient Romans who enjoyed death in
the arena as part of their entertainment. 2. During the Middle Ages of the Christian era in Europe,
prisoners condemned to death were brought to the cathedral plaza, where the victims were broken bone by
bone before huge crowds, with the nobility having the front seats. The execution could be prolonged
for hours. It was entertainment. This slow death was for commoners only. A nobleman condemned to death
had the privilege of a quick beheading or hanging, and in private. 3. In our own days of the wild West,
hangings usually took place on a Sunday, and all the people from the neighboring areas came to watch,
often right after their church services.

So, some people of the present time haven't changed that much, have they? We 've had a long history of
sadistic customs before us. We haven't totally evolved out of sadism by any means.

The history of human beings hasn't always been a noble one. It's sad, but that is the way it was.

[old mark]

52. Google Pat Buchannan and Newt Gingrich - the socioboys of the GOP..nt

[Cal33]

58. Thanks for suggesting the googling of Pat Buchannan and

Newt Gingrich. Newt is well known to me, and I thought I knew Pat. I didn't think that
he, too, was also that far gone! I thought Pat was a relatively moderate right-winger.

[old mark]

59. He is a flaming POS - When he ran for president, he made Palin seem

moderate.

mark

[Cal33]

67. You're right. I didn't even remember that. Of course, at that

time I was still working, and I didn't have much time for politics. I do
remember having read that he used to be a speech writer for Nixon.

[old mark]

70. And it was all downhill from there.....nt

[Cal33]

71. Come to think of it, it was.

[gtar100]

55. Kick - this gets to the the very heart of our world's problems.

Awareness -> Acceptance -> Understanding -> Resolution -> Action

[Cal33]

69. Thank you. I sure hope many people will agree with you and

send this msg. to their friends asking them to do the same. Our goal
is to cut down the number of sociopaths in high places.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

57. Excellent, thought provoking thread!

I also believe that part of the problem is when the sociopaths become dominant, as in business and reinforce their lack of morals, scruples, etc. until that LACK of moral constraint- becomes the new ethos of the business community. Executive compensation is the perfect example of this. They have to know intellectually that NO ONE is worth their bloated and outrageous compensations and that they are in fact looting and embezzling from their own companies, but they have redefined the parameters of the game and there were/are no referees ( regulators) to step in and stop them. We then see the enforcers (politicians, legislators) then aspire to become part of the industry they are/were supposed to regulate when they become lobbyists, BOD members, etc. Eventually they cannibalize and crush their own industries, sectors, etc. as we have in fact seen happen. And then the little guy, us, is called in to become the cavalry while they secretly laugh even harder at how supremely dumb and gullible we are.

I do think that we could reclaim the game and the playing field if their were enough moral outrage to simply VOTE THE BASTARDS OUT.
I am almost evolving into a political position whereby NO ONE with very few exceptions deserves to hold their office because they are such supreme disappointments when push comes to shove in looking out for the interests of the voters, the citizens, the common good.

DO THE RIGHT THING should replace DON'T TREAD ON ME as a national ethos/credo if we want to advance as a people and a country.

I personally believe this amoral realignment took place with Ronald Reagan and Gordon Gekko in the 80's.

I just loved your OP and look forward to many more from you!

[Uncle Joe]

62. I agree with your take on it, Phoebe.

:thumbsup:

I also believe this new ethos you speak of creates a climate for Sociopaths in a society to thrive and prosper, creating conditions conducive for them to more likely pass their DNA on; until the dysfunctional society corrects it self or collapses.

Peace to you.:hi:

[Cal33]

75. A climate for sociopths...to thrive and prosper

And there are also very old customs which have always provided the atmosphere for sociopaths to
thrive and prosper in. Few people realize that lobbying itself, the way it has been carried out
so far, ALREADY IS BRIBERY, and therefore a CRIME. It has been with us always. at least, there
is no one living today who can remember a time when it did not yet exist. Hardly anyone questions
the morality of a custom that has always been around.

I would like to suggest that all lobbying should be done by the company itself. No third party
should be involved. Gifts of any kind, small or large and in any shape or form, should be
forbidden. And all former government employees should be permanently banned from lobbying
activities - direct or indirect - of any kind.

[Cal33]

72. Thank you for your kind words. Yes, at some level of

consciousness the top executives must know that nobody is worth the bloated compensations they are
receiving. I've read that the CEO of one corporation received $400 million separation compensation
when his company wasn't doing well. Who was actually paying him? The stockholders and the little
guys working for him. But, does it bother him at all? I believe not.

My purpose is to get enough people riled, so that they will try to do something about this b.s.
I do realize that there are also many people around who are gullible and easily fooled -- some
even willingly. Oh, well. :o)

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

60. kick! Cal33 - pm me anytime you would like a thread of yours to die a quiet death.

My service is free and confidential.

[Cal33]

73. Hi Phoebe,

I don't quite understand your message. I tried to pm you, but was told that I
hadn't written enough messages to send anyone a private one. Maybe you could
pm me and get through? I would be honored. Thanks.

Cal33

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

77. I was making a joke about me apparently killing off your wonderful thread

because for the longest time I was the last post (before the one we're discussing) and your thread fell off the front page. So I made my comment both to kick your thread back up and to comment on my own eery ability to somehow always be the last poster. Then, thankfully, other people made more comments, but then my comment about thread killing REALLY didn't make any sense, so no wonder you had no idea what I was talkin about.

:toast: Cheers

[Cal33]

80. I understand now. I don't believe in jinxes. :o) Thanks for

having kicked my thread up. Would you happen to know how many msgs.
I have to write before becoming eligible for sending private
messages?

[Swede]

61. Kicking this.

So I can read it later.

[Cal33]

74. Kicking this. So I can read it later.

So, have you read it later? :o)

[leftofthedial]

66. capitalism and the social institutions it infests

promote sociopaths

[Cal33]

81. Very true. From history, that has always been the way so far.

Just look at the poverty in which most people lived as described by Charles Dickens
during the Industrial Revolution period in England. And during Queen Victoria's
reign, when Britain was at the height of her power, and the "sun never set on
the British Empire," all the loot from the colonies went into the pockets of
the relatively few. The poor Brits never saw a penny of it. It was exactly
during Victoria's reign that one out of every eight women in London was a
prostitute. It was the only way for these women to survive !!!

Any chance of people at the top ever becoming less selfish and greedy - I mean,
not just a few individuals, but people on a large scale?

[riverdeep]

78. The incentives that a society presents also influence how many

and how influential sociopaths become. In a winner take all society like ours, it's not a surprise that they hold great sway. The reason this is so, I believe, is not because of what sociopaths do- they will always do what they do- but because what those surrounding them do. If it's drummed into your mind that anything to win is justified, then when you see people doing just that you won't protest. After all, everything's fair.

However, I don't believe that over the long haul sociopaths will increase significantly, I think the long term trend is actually against them. I know this is a kind of heresy given the bleakness of the modern world, but the ancient world was often even more bleak. You could be thrown in prison for life on a whim. The masses lived under the thumb of rulers without recourse. Think about how many democracies there were 400 years ago. Think about how many there are now. Even though people power is muted by either religious power (Iran) or corporate power (America), the fact that they even have to put on a charade says something significant, it says that they can no longer justify power on the older principles (everything from 'might makes right' to 'nobility has privileges').

Elsewhere in this thread was a link to an article discussing, in part, Game Theory. A flawed interpretation of Game Theory is that it proves that selfishness wins and that's why we have sociopaths. Not so, it all depends on the externalities involving the game. When the game is played as a one-off event, then the selfish approach tends to win, when it's played as an 'iterative' session, where the players' past moves are remembered, cooperation tends to win. Robert Axelrod wrote about this years ago in his 'The Evolution of Cooperation'.

http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Cooperation-Robert-Axelrod/dp/0465021212

While looking it up, I found this blog posting that's kind of interesting:

"Another one of Axelrod’s results was that the only time opportunistic strategies do work is when there’s a high percentage of naive always-cooperate players for them to fleece."

http://pl.atyp.us/wordpress/?p=587

But you can see that there are so many variables even just in a structured game that it becomes difficult to extrapolate over to real life with ease.


Going back to situations creating a climate for sociopathy to prevail, when it comes to corporations, no act has created a more favorable climate than granting personhood to corporations. Also, look at the internal missions of corporations- it's actually against the law for them NOT to act unethically if doing so decreases profits for shareholders. It's institutionalized madness. The good news is that this is not an inherent situation and can be reversed. The bad news is it won't be anytime soon because the entire modern world is now built using these principles.

[Cal33]

84. Going back 250 years, all the nations on earth were the private

properties of their respectives kings and emperors (tiny Switzerland was an exception).
The USA became the first nation to revolt against and throw off the yoke of royalty.

Yes, generally speaking, the further we go back in time, the worse things were.
In ancient Rome, two-thirds of the population in her empire were slaves. During
the Middle Ages of the Christian Era, things were probably even worse. The word
"slave" was not used, but the nobility owned their "commoners" and "serfs", and royalty
owned the whole country. And royalty and nobility made up a fraction of one percent of
the population!

In the USA, it seems that "the pursuit of happiness" came to mean "the pursuit of money."
And money means power. Over time, the most ambitious and ruthless money-grabbers made
their way to the top of the heap. And a high percentage of them are sociopaths. These
are the guys who love to control and take advantage of others. To them human beings are
to be used as tools for their own benefit, and discarded when they are of no further use.

In the US again, there is the Constitutional guarantee of freedom. This means that we
can fight back. The Bush Administration tried to remove as much freedom as they could,
but their attempts did not succeed.

Now, whether or not we actually do fight back depends on each individual. Make your
choice.

[Cal33]

86. Gentlemen they are not!

Sociopaths are not Gentlemen

To what I've written previously I'd like to add the following:

Those who have engaged in politics for a while surely can see that attempting to work successfully on a bi-partisan basis with sociopaths would be a difficult thing to achieve. Bi-partisanship entails yielding a little, making some compromises, and living up to them. Sociopaths don't find it easy to make compromises, to say the least. And if they did agree to one, at the first inconvenience, or when the first opportunity for gain arises, they will break their agreement (secretly, if possible) - UNLESS there is built into the agreement a greater disadvantage or some other form of unpleasantness for not keeping it. Material loss and fear seem to be the only things that sociopaths respect.

In short, being gentle with them for not sticking to agreements would only invite them to take even more advantage. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. They might even think of the gentle person as a born sucker, if not a born loser. What they want for themselves is, "Either my way or the high-way." Haven't we seen enough examples of this during the Bush Administration?

Let's take a look at a hypothetical scenario. Let's suppose that sociopaths eventually win control of the whole earth. Will there be peach and prosperity then? Well, we know that selfishness and greed are unquenchable, and the quest for MORE is insatiable. There is no end to it. Before very long, since there is no one else around, sociopaths will be at each others' throats.

No. Gentlemen these people are not!

Does anyone see other possible outcomes, should sociopaths take over our world?

[Richard Steele]

89. Sorry I got here too late to REC this. Welcome to DU, Cal33!

:hi:

[Cal33]

91. Many thanks, Richard. You are very kind. I hope you have .

passed on the msg. to your friends, and asked them to do the same.

Best wishes to you. Cal33

[Richard Steele]

92. My FRIENDS are all perfectly aware of this problem.

If they aren't aware of this, then they aren't really my friends.

It's nice to meet someone NEW who has such a good handle on it.

Nice to meet you.

Richard

[Cal33]

93. Nice meeting you, Richard. I have some friends among the

old time Republicans, the true Republicans, whose party has been inflitrated by the Neo-Conservatives. These latter Neo-Cons have simply used
the Republican name, usurped their power and left them with no say whatsoever, but had to do as the Neo-Cons tell them. I can get along with
the Old Time Republicans, but not with the Neo-Cons. I guess you are toughter with them than I am. You live up to your name: a man of steel. :o)

[tabasco]

90. Recall the Enron tapes with guys acting gleeful about turning off the elderly's power.

That's your typical republican.

Rat-bastards don't deserve to live.

[Cal33]

95. Yeah! There was a black-out of Southern California, which

lasted for quite some time. It was deliberately created by Enron back in 2001. They made billions,
didn't they? What nice guys!

[depakid]

94. You'd be better off looking to Robert Hare (and having a read of Snakes in Suits)

rather than trying to cram Kohlberg's stages of moral development in there where it really doesn't apply.

Dr. Hare's site: http://www.hare.org/

[Cal33]

96. I've never Robert Hare. Thanks for the info. I don't see why

Kohlberg's stages of moral developmetn don't apply. Some of the sociopaths
have never matured beyond the earliest and most primitive stages of the
young child. That's what I wanted to point out in this area. My main
themes are the incredible damage caused by sociopaths in this world or ours,
and why they shouldn't hold positions of responsibility. Their moral
development was just a point mentioned in passing. It helps to explain
why they are the way they are.

[kjackson227]

97. this describes my boss to a "t"

[Cal33]

98. Sorry to hear about that.

I wish you all the best.