So what do the Protest Cheereleaders expect to happen in Iran?

[bhikkhu]

I'm just wondering. You have a bunch of breathless coverage apparently followed by equally breathless followers-from-afar, hoping the whole thing blows up.

Let's see...looking at history, what happens when a small group without guns gets all fired up and bum-rushes a large group with guns? Awhile back the Shah abandoned the same stage, and I suppose that was the ideal outcome. Then, however, the "small goup" was 100's of thousands, his main support (us) was suddenly apathetic, and he happened to be deathly ill. The Shah famously explained later that "a dictator might slaughter his own people, but a king cannot".

Which kind of people are running the country now, do you suppose?

The whole thing stinks. The coverage of it stinks, reminding me of the news coverage of the first days of the Iraq war - all excitement and anticipation, the thudding of guns and the vast plumes of smoke...all the separated body parts and destroyed homes and lives left out.

The worst part of this is knowing that tucked into the US budget each year for the past few years has been millions to fund "insurgency operations" inside Iran. So how many of these destroyed lives did we pay for? How many of the unarmed did we whisper promises to and send on into the guns, as we watch from the other side of the planet? I know its a questionable fashion to blame all things on the US, but our outward policies for many many years have encouraged a strong and somewhat paranoid militant conservatism within Iran, and discouraged reform and secularism. Our "secret" policies have set up internal stresses by the most economical means to maintain the fucked up status quo, which will predictably blow up into little local protests and even mini civil wars from time to time. It all makes for good footage - and I'm sure Youtube is doing well. Surrogate protesters for what we never did here, war-porn-light we can cheer for, over our weekend barbeques...

[Bumblebee]

1. Are we supposed to cheer for rigged elections instead and the guy who says there was

no Holocaust and there are no gays in Iran?!

[azul]

50. And what did you do in 2000 when the US election was rigged and stolen?

You have more freedon now? Less tax burden? Know where all your damn dollars are being spent?

[steelmania75]

75. We sent E-Mails to other liberal friends in all-caps, expressing our anger

[AlphaCentauri]

88. very true, it's dangerous to go out without sun block and sun glasses

:rofl:

[Warpy]

2. Civil disobedience isn't practiced by cowards

and people who engage in it know what the risks are.

Thinking you're going to escape unscathed is foolish.

We knew that in the 60s. They know that now.

I don't think we're behind this one, although operatives might be in the country trying to add fuel to the fire.

The fire was already there. Likely this would have happened years ago if our own government hadn't been taken over by a swaggering bantam rooster from Texas and his gang of merry oil barons.

[The Magistrate]

3. So You, Sir, Are Of The View This Is All Orchestrated By The C.I.A.?

[bhikkhu]

6. I don't know

I'd have to be in Iran and talk to a lot of people involved to form any useful opinion. I just wish that we hadn't for the last few years been, on the one hand, reinforcing the anti-secular powers-that-be in Iran's government, and on the other hand financing internal regime-change movements.

How much the whole thing has been manipulated into being I don't know, but I naively wish that nations minded there own business, and that the people of any given nation find their own solutions to their own problems best when the agendas of global powers aren't pulling the strings.

[The Magistrate]

7. No, Sir, You Do Not Know: You Simply Float Insinuendoes That It Is So....

A casual observer might readily come to the conclusion you actually support the ruling theocrats here, on the grounds that they are hostile to the United States, taking that as sufficient to excuse their reactionary character....

[bhikkhu]

11. Ok, but what about the question, what do you see happening?

insinuendos aside, I see a train wreck, lots of people suffering and dying and a conservative crackdown. Do you imagine something different, or hope that outside powers intervene?

[Bumblebee]

12. So people should never protest? No velvet revolutions, orange revolutions --

Hungary and Prague uprisings? Just sit at home and stay safe?

[vadawg]

15. their call, problemis people who are safe at home hopefully wont judge the protesters

id they decide to run for the hills rather than die. I think the hardliners are gonna crack the whip and are probuably moving forces into position at this moment ala the chinese before tiannaman. I just cant see it ending well for the protesters.

[Bumblebee]

17. movements don't happen overnight; they build on protests over years

some of which are brutally suppressed -- like they were in Eastern Europe. If protesters stay at home, the brutal regimes will never end. For some people there are things worth even dying for -- and that's how history is made. Unfortunately people in the US are rarely moved to get up from their couches and protest anything, even though it's much safer to do so than in Iran, or Georgia, or Hungary, or former Czechoslovakia, or the former Soviet Union.

[vadawg]

20. As i said having borne witness to the breakup and revolution of a country

its not a pretty sight, no matter who wins theres gonna be a lot of killing happening, i would not blame the people of Iran if they do decide to go home, also this revolution so far seems to be very localised, the protesters might have the numbers in the city but you never know the people looking on might be the majority and pro the regime.

[bhikkhu]

18. I suppose foreign involvement is the crux of the matter

because of the known US funding of anti-government movements, and because of the position the US has assumed in the middle east for the past many years, it will be a very easy thing for the Iranian government to mercilessly suppress the movement and paint it as a US scheme.

[Bumblebee]

19. that's an insult to many, many Iranians who are smart and educated

enough (and, proportionally, I am sure, more so than Americans) to know what their regime is all about without any western interference. You should at least educate yourself about the country first before you make such offensive and ignorant pronouncements -- like by reading Nafisi, for example.

[The Magistrate]

24. This, Ma'am, Is Simply One More Of Those Persons

Who imagine only the U.S. acts, and all other persons and peoples are merely objects. He imagines that small sums given to several ethnic separatist bodies, and one hard left remnant dating to the seventies of the last century, suffices to account for a mass movement of Iranians against their government. It is nonesense.

[Posteritatis]

30. It's a rather annoying attitude to the other ninety-five percent of the planet, to be sure

It's far too common on DU to assume that the US is the only country with any kind of agency, and that anything odd happening abroad is just the ignorant savages being manipulated by whichever bogeyman has replaced Rove now that Bush is out of office. I know exceptionalism is endemic in the United States - I can't not, sitting next door to it - but it wears thin after a while.

It's making peoples' views on geopolitics during the Cold War seem subtle and nuanced, and that's sad.

[Hannah Bell]

58. and you "sir," are one of those people who like straw men.

[Joe the Revelator]

61. Speaking of straw men....

[Hannah Bell]

74. yes, i am speaking of straw men: the one where the op claimed the cia was behind everything.

[The Magistrate]

64. Chanting 'Straw Man! Straw Man! Straw Man!', Ma'am, Just Announces You Have Nothing To Say

Not even a point, let alone an argument....

[Hannah Bell]

72. still waiting for you to link me to the deleted post where the op claimed the cia

was behind everything.

[bhikkhu]

82. Its hardly a rare news item

Not related to the current protests that I've ever read - that's probably as portrayed in the media. But the government response is certainly likely to be informed by the prior US involvements.

google "iran funding US insurgents" and varieties of that...its public knowledge and a regular budget item for some time.

[Hannah Bell]

93. did you say the cia was behind events in iran? if you did, i'll quit complaining

about the magistrate claiming you said that.

i thought you said "i don't know".

[bhikkhu]

137. No, I've never read myself about specifically responsible acronyms

though I think it did suggest it in the link that I initially posted about the US funding of groups in Iran...posted as the first result of a quick search for documentation of US funding, which I've read about and objected to for years. We can read that money is appropriated, as that is public, but exactly how it is spent is speculation. I object to it as the financing of destabilizing efforts is a terrible idea. Look at the few years of a fully "destabilized" Afghanistan, and Iraq, and you can go back to similar results in Columbia and other Latin American countries in the past...

[tiny elvis]

71. I see only

theocratic capitalists vs. theocratic socialists. The US will help the capitalists any way it can.

[The Magistrate]

83. It Is True The Opposition Figure-Head is No Prize, Sir

[Strong Atheist]

136. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[tiny elvis]

171. a flashing neon welcome. thanks n/t

[Wizard777]

181. Rafsanjani removes Khamenei and replaces him with Montazeri.

Montazeri calls for new honest and open elections. The real competition is between Mousavi and Khatami.

[Chulanowa]

56. That's not what's being said

But did either of your example demonstrations turn into violent riots? The demonstrations in Tehran did. The protests you describe also had country-wide support. What's happening in Iran does not. The protesters in Hungary and Ukraine also had US support - the Iranians do not (though that may change).

What you, and so many other internet commandos of the 101st Keyboard Division want, then, is more rioting, and more slaughter of protesters. Becuase that's what this is. You want more protesters to die, in the hope it will "set off the entire country"

You want a violent revolution.

Of course, you're not going to be there to get your face shot out hte back of your skull while cheering for said violent revolution, are you?

Let me ask. Let's say you get your wish, and Iran undergoes a domestic revolution. Guns, fires, bombings, assassinations, riots, martial law, all that fun stuff. And let's say the protesters win. What do you think the end result will be? What? Do you think "Democracy kicks in" and Iran turns into California overnight?

[The Magistrate]

14. It Is Quite Possible, Sir, The Government Will Win This Round

There has been a tone to the coverage in the early days reminiscent of that in the early stages of the Tienamin episode in China, taking for granted large crowds could not be controlled, and that the government could not use violence to clear the streets. These are foolish statements, always.

Whether the revolution prevails or not, there will be great suffering among its partisans, and if it prevails, there will be great suffering among its foes as well. It would certainly be the best outcome if this revolution were to succeed, as the government it is aimed at is an abominable cabal of reactionary obscurantists, which has by now become thoroughly corrupted by money greed into the bargain. Its removal is a thing any person of left and progressive sentiments is duty-bound to support. There is no prospect of significant interference by outside powers; the thing is far too large a scale for that to make much difference, and there are no outside powers more popular than the government which is the object of the revolution.

[Uncle Joe]

21. I agree with your take on it, The Magistrate. n/t

[bhikkhu]

28. ...and for a dictator to flourish, enemies are needed

one of those tragic ironies. Often enemies must be invented, but Iran has had no need for invention for many years.

One thing that I look at in history is one the the largest suppressions of freedom in human history, which was during the Cultural Revolution in China. What helped turn the tide there was (a massive irony in itself) Nixon's gesture of friendship that reversed the long held posture of "enemy". Whatever the other causes and effects there, that gesture of friendship was a turning point which changed how the Chinese rulers and people viewed their position in the world and their relations among one another.

The US seems to have adopted a fixed and fruitless position of "enemy" to several nations, such as North Korea, Myanmar, Venezuela, Iran and others which strengthens the ability of those countries to maintain authoritarian rule.

[The Magistrate]

37. You Clearly, Sir, Have at Best a Limited Understanding of The 'Cultural Revolution' And It Ending

It was broken by armed violence, levied mostly by military bodies, in reaction to the chaotic conditions afflicting the country, and the fear of those in power who had not yet been put through the grinder that their turn would come next.

What you really need to get through your head, Sir, is that the United States is not all that important, and certainly is very far from omnipotent and omnipresent. People do things themselves, for their own reasons and motivations. When an individual person believes he or she strongly influences or contrives by manipulation the actions of all other people he or she has any contact with, therapy is generally recommended, since the belief is false to fact.

[bhikkhu]

53. You are probably right, but the initial sentiment stands

I know there is plenty of thin ice to tread upon when listing historic parallels, and that there is much more to most global issues and happenings than the position and money of the US government...but the "cheerleading" is what I can hardly stand. Whether it is Iran, Myanmar, Tibet, Chiapas, or anywhere else. We seem willing to turn a blind eye to every abuse, even indirectly causing abuses in many cases, until it reaches the point of bodies facing bullets. Then we are all full of the sympathy of stern resolve and support for the wounded and the dead. Then things quiet down and we move along to the next horror show.

It has been common knowledge for years that US involvement in the regional and national politics in Iran has steadily eroded the secular and progressive elements there. Perhaps it would have happened anyway, but it would be nice to see the course reversed, inasmuch as we can have any effect upon it.

[The Magistrate]

54. You Are Not Arguing With The U.S. Government Here, Sir

You are engaged with left and progressive persons, and suggesting they should turn a jaundiced eye on mass demonstrations against a regime of reactionary clerics. That is going to be a hard sell....

[bhikkhu]

68. Not a jaundiced eye, just one with more consideration of consequences

Such as, the financing of insurgencies typically takes advantage of existing ethnic divisions and supports the goals of separatist minorities. The most bang for the buck there, all well and good. But what happens when things unravel? The government cracks down hard appropriating land, enforcing discrimination, jailing all leadership, at times "disappearing" significant parts of populations. And we turn a jaundiced eye, deny involvement and enact economic sanctions creating more poverty (and more fertile ground for insurrection).

I don't need to name a time or place for the above example as it has happened many times and many places in my lifetime. Isn't there more that we could do?

[The Magistrate]

78. Surely, Sir, You Know Something of The Human Geography There, Though?

The separatist elements are in border-lands, far from the central metropolitan area. Those bodies could no more muster a large crowd in Tehran than Georgians could in Moscow. What is documented by way of support for ethnic separatists has no relation to the current events. Nor were those separatist bodies brought into being by the subventions provided; those were received because the movements were already in existence, and might be able to do something in their areas with the money the U.S. government conceived to be in its interest. The theocracy i Iran is not particularly popular with people in the cities, and decidedly unpopular with educated and professional persons. Its immediate present leadership has alienated a great many of the original radicals who were the cadre of the rising against the Shah decades ago. The question is whether the towns or the countryside will prevail, and my knowledge of the internal structure of the place is not sufficient for me to hazard a guess. Clearly a large number of people in the capital are willing to stake a great deal on a favorable outcome from their point of view. Your comments continue to press the position that they are doing so not of their own volition but because they have been suborned to do so by U.S. agency. As anyone who has ever bought panty-hose can assure you, one size does not really fit all....

[BlooInBloo]

87. "Insinuendoes" - nice mash-up.

[The Magistrate]

89. A Coinage Of Our Chicago Mayor, Sir, That Deserves Dictionary Status In My Opinion....

[bhikkhu]

169. 134 years old, by one account:

http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-ins2.htm

I did a quick google-check, and the above traces it to a legislator in post-civil war South Carolina, with perhaps one brief earlier occurrence. Interesting article.

[JackRiddler]

29. So you, Sir, Are Engaging in False Dichotomy Attacks?

[The Magistrate]

33. Trotting Out a List Of Logical Fallacies, Sir, Will Not Get You Very Far With Me

The person addressed has indeed clarified his view to make clear he does feel this has been contrived by U.S. agency.

[JackRiddler]

38. Sir, I'd Not Imagine I Could Get Anywhere With You, Tweaking Pompous Illogic Is a Reward in Itself

[The Magistrate]

39. You Must Demonstrate Something Is Illogical, Sir, You Cannot Simply Claim It And Hope For Applause

[Hannah Bell]

60. straw men are always illogical - & manipulative.

[Hannah Bell]

41. yes, he is.

[The Magistrate]

42. Demonstrate It, Ma'am: Parroting It Simply Will Not Do....

[Hannah Bell]

44. demonstrate your own straw men..."sir"....

[The Magistrate]

45. In Fact, Ma'am, The Person Addressed Has Stated Here The Belief This Is A C.I.A. Operation

Which rather collapses the tired wheeze you have attempted, though it was quite able to collapse on its own in any case....

[Hannah Bell]

46. where's that, "sir"?

you seem to be, let's say, playing fast & loose with the facts.

[The Magistrate]

48. The Comment in Question, Ma'am, Was Deleted By The Moderators

Though that occurred some time after my own reply to it. The member in question has in at least one other comment here made reference to small sums given to various irridentist groups and identified this as the basis for the belief tis has been concocted by the U.S., rather than being a genuine expression of the people in Tehran.

As long as we are exchanging such pleasantries, Ma'am, are you of a similar view? Do you consider this to be an outbreak contrived by the C.I.A., rather than a popular rising against the present Iranian regime?

[Hannah Bell]

52. where's that, "sir"?

where's that "deleted" post?

[divineorder]

112. May I also add that

Funding small separatist groups is more like CIA welfare than a real plan for revolution, being minority, there is simply no chance that their terrorism or armed rebellion will ever bring about real change. While the rest of the country may give concessions, they will never follow them as leaders. All such manuevers do is give an oppressive government an excuse for cracking down on the minority group.

No amount of money spent will persuade people to face tanks unarmed with peaceful intent. No amount of meddling will persuade people to face the prospect of torture, loss of jobs, and potential injury and death with no reason.


No amount of meddling will stir up a content populace. Case in point: the American Communist Party. Russia funded the organization from the 1930's to the fall of the Berlin Wall. That party never gained any real traction with Americans-indeed the only benefit was some petty espionage. The few Americans that flirted with Communism did so because they believed that was the only way to gain dignity under the law. Once local Civil rights movements gained traction and results, what little chance there was for the party melted away like a snow cone in a heat wave.

[The Magistrate]

113. Hear Hear, Ma'am! Well Said Indeed

[Hannah Bell]

176. their "terrorism"? you don't get it. the us funds "democracy"! the us funds

civil rights, gay rights, womens rights!

freeeeedom!

lol.

[bhikkhu]

70. In principle I don't "believe" much at all

...defining "belief" as the suspension of critical thinking. What I did do was post a link to an article talking about the long-term US funding of covert anti-government activities. They may have no relation whatsoever to the current situation, but there is annoyingly no way of knowing. The funding is public knowledge but of course the activities themselves are not. Funding directed at discretely causing the conditions for regime change is obnoxious, however bad the government - inevitably it just places bodies before the guns of those in power, and the hand behind it can deny all responsibility.

[The Magistrate]

81. Except, Sir, That Even Cursory Knowledge Of the Place Is Sufficient

To show that the groups identified as having received the paltry sums do not bear in the slightest on events in the capital. You are not engaged in critical thinking; you are applying an a priori belief, and grasping at straws to do so.

[bhikkhu]

91. The larger point was not that US funding was behind the protests

I don't think that is likely the case at all, though it is the type of circumstance that both parties would take advantage of to further their interests.

Rather, the point was that posting encouraging and ennobling words from the sidelines as people are shot and rounded up and we do nothing is an abdication of responsibility at best, and a gruesome display of youtube inspired voyeurism at worst. It has happened over and over, in a variety of countries. Can we do better? Our stance for the past few years has encouraged both the event and the political backdrop within which it is persecuted. Can we adopt a stance that makes such events unnecessary?

[The Magistrate]

94. Then What Are You Talking About, Sir?

Events occur.

People see them.

People say things about what they see.

It was ever thus; nothing has changed but the speed with which, and distance over which, things can be readily communicated.

Your closing portion remains a claim that these things owe somehow to actions of the United States. They do not. The expectations of people in the world have altered somewhat, and people are less inclined to accept a subordinated lot than formerly. It is a harder row to hoe nowadays to maintain an overtly repressive regime.

[bhikkhu]

114. Khatami was ousted by Ahmadinejad

which was the rise of a conservative over a reformist, and the shifting tide was chiefly related (if memory serves) to the hunkering down of the whole region during the Iraq war, and the open and often repeated threat of the expansion of war to Iran.

Not to say "its all about us", but we did wage a war on the borders of Iran, maintain a policy of regime change in Iran, and regularly threaten to invade them. As a result, there was some stress within the country which manifested as a shift to conservatism wit a more authoritarian tone. When people are afraid they tend to accept different kinds of rulers than when things are good.

on edit - I just realized that I still have that dumb fish stick joke in my sig line...

[The Magistrate]

118. Khatami, Sir, Was Opposed By Clerical Chiefs From the Moment He Was Elected

Unsurprisingly, the next election result was more to their liking.....

[arcadian]

65. I am

Look at the photos. What do they remind you of? The toppling of Saddam Husseins statue in that square in Baghdad. I don't see anything but a few ruffians roaming the street trying to sway worldwide public opinion:

[The Magistrate]

66. Is That All You Have, Sir? Those Are the Only Pictures You Have Seen?

[arcadian]

86. Watch this

Tehran June 20, 2009 - Opium drug smugglers repel an assault by Iranian counter-drug tactical commandos in the Damavand section of Tehran. Demavand is the origin of Iran's heroin trade and government forces have besieged the impoverished neighborhood in hopes of weeding out the smugglers and bringing the heroin trade to a halt. Drug lords control nearly three quarters of Iran. Rueters


Pretty wild huh?

[The Magistrate]

90. Interesting Caption, Sir: Do You Have a Link For It?

[arcadian]

117. No, I made it up to prove a point.

Don't worry, I spelled Reuters wrong on purpose.

[The Magistrate]

119. So You Have Nothing, Then, Sir?

[arcadian]

123. I have an understanding of public opinion and the mob.

[The Magistrate]

126. With a Five Dollar Bill, Sir, That Might Get You A Cup Of Coffee And Change Somewhere

It is hardly sufficient to demonstrate your claim fits the facts.

[arcadian]

129. Please explain this statement:

"With a Five Dollar Bill, Sir, That Might Get You A Cup Of Coffee And Change Somewhere"

Are you trying to be folksy? Try harder.

[JackRiddler]

179. Implying, Sir, That Even Among the Starbucks Revolutionaries, You Overpay

[OmahaBlueDog]

160. Orchestrated? No... Nudged/Encouraged/Emboldened - probably

...and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

My question is whether the election was really rigged, or if that's the spin Western media is putting on the whole thing because nobody likes I'm-a-dinner-jacket.

[jefferson_dem]

4. Sure.

It's all a giant conspiracy manufactured by the corporate media, CIA ops, and the political elite for the purpose of furthering their selfish ends while the staged images and videos are eagerly consumed like porno by lazy American voyeurs.

And this whole time, I though it was the demands of a people that their government actually be accountable, that basic freedoms and human rights be recognized.

... Shit. Thanks for clarifying.

[Flaneur]

63. It would be much easier to deflate the US regime change conspiracy argument...

...if the US weren't spending hundreds of millions of dollars to destablize the regime in Teheran.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN29358834

[jefferson_dem]

108. So, in your view, since the American government would prefer the despotic islamic theocracy...

be overturned...that means this uprising is a American-manufactured event. Wow. That's quite a leap of faith.

By the way, I have no problem with our government advocating and even helping execute regime change in Iran. If you choose to stand with the tyrant Ahmadinejad, please feel free.

[pnorman]

5. Here's from one of my postings on another related thread:

Elsewhere on DU, a few posters were throwing water on all these street demonstrations.

They were self-proclaimed socialists, the type I usually refer to as "ultra-doctrinaire socialists". (in earlier times, I'd probably have referred to them as "crypto-stalinists"). The point they were trying to make was that Mousavi and his principal backer, had FAR from "clean hands" some years back.

Probably, but what we're looking at is a genuine MASS protest movement, quite UNLIKE that obviously contrived CIA-sponsored one in 1953! When it runs its course, it might well go far beyond Mousavi. It might even take down that theocratic structure too!

pnorman
"There is perhaps no phenomenon which contains so much destructive feeling as "moral indignation," which permits envy or hate to be acted out under the guise of virtue"-- Eric Fromm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3931495

[Grey]

8. I, also, wonder.....

[The Magistrate]

9. Any Particular Grounds For It, Sir?

Or just a general disinclination to believe masses of people might actually detest their government, even though it happens to be hostile to the United States?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

22. That, Sir, Is Simply Tripe

It is no secret that there has been support given to several groups within Iran, most noteably Arab separatists in the southwest and Baluchi separatists in the southeast, and also to remnants of the M.E.K. This sort of low-level irritation has nothing to do with events of the sort we are seeing unfold i Tehran at present. A doctrinaire rightist Anti-Semite like Raimondo will of course blur differences in his crusade against 'Zionist influence' in the world and the United States.

You have, at least, now openly stated it is your view that opposition to the ruling theocracy in Iran is the creation of Bush and Cheney, and the clarification is helpful. Coupled with the extreme pacifist view you present, purely as a tactical stance in this instance, it is obvious, since it excuses you from expressing opposition to a reactionary and obscurantist regime while allowing you to maintain a pretense of progressivism, it becomes very clear what your actual concerns are, namely a platform of supporting any foreign enemy of the United States, whatever its character might actually be.

[Bumblebee]

25. Hugo Chavez, for example,

A great hero among some DUers...

[The Magistrate]

27. You May Number Me Among Those, Ma'am

Col. Chavez is, in my view, pretty much what Venezuela has needed for decades. Obviously, there are some things he says that it is impossible for me to agree with, but on balance, I support him.

[TahitiNut]

32. My view precisely.

:shrug:

Neither saint nor demon... merely needed.

[Bumblebee]

34. well, we'll have to disagree on this one, although I am far from sure whether there are

any better alternatives right now, definitely not among those whom the US supports.

[bhikkhu]

47. How exactly is Iran our enemy?

Do they become a "foreign enemy" because they don't allow, at this time, all the freedoms that our culture takes as self-evident? That would make for a lot of foreign enemies...

Its tempting to go on quite a bit about that, but I basically object to the warmongering nature of the whole debate. It serves a domestic purpose that I object to as much currently as I did when it was the prior administration posturing about. Remember Myanmar? How's that going, I wonder if anyone knows - freedom on the march and all. That served its purpose here awhile back, and the language applied to it was virtually identical, but it was rare to hear anyone speak who even knew the immediate causes.

[The Magistrate]

51. It Is My Habit, Sir, To Take People At Their Word: It Seems Only Courteous

The government of Iran has expressed on numerous occasions its hostility towards the United States, and devoted considerable energy to opposing U.S. interests and policies. That they may have excellent reasons for this is immaterial to the assessment of whether the relation is hostile or no.

Speaking personally as a man of the left, the Iranian regime is virulently reactionary, and opposed to every social development the let has traditionally supported from the earliest period of leftist political and revolutionary movements.

"Which side are you on? Tell me, which side are you on?"

[bhikkhu]

55. Once in Madison Square Garden at 2 AM -

I was there with a friend sitting and discussing our options, having spent a little too much time in the bars and finding that we had missed our train back to Jersey. The station was empty except for a rough looking fellow who was muttering to himself across the room and staring at us. He kept talking and walking toward us, and I could hear him calling us some insulting names and asking provocative questions - clearly looking to fight. We pretended not to hear until he was right behind us muttering insults, when I stood up and smiled relaxedly and put out my hand. I introduced myself by name with a smile and said where we were from, and asked how he was doing. He was taken aback and by reflex put his hand out too. We shook hands and chatted for a couple of minutes, when he said he needed to go and meet someone somewhere, and he left.

That was a remarkable incident, but it goes to the point that it takes two to fight, and where two parties come together one party may by will impose a desired character upon the other.

[The Magistrate]

57. Random Loons In The Wee Hours, Sir, Are A Poor Guide To Policy....

The collision between the U.S. and Iran's regime is no chance meeting on a sidewalk between parties who have no history between them.

[bhikkhu]

76. Well said, but I had to throw that in anyway :) n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

102. As a Man of the left that you are

do you believe that there is a real leftist movement for change in Iran other than a pair of fundamentalist right wing nuts politicians fighting to keep or to get in power?

I understand that any disruption of the current regime will benefit our interest in the middle east but we have to be sure that we do not dictate the change without giving the people, specially the poor the opportunity to take part of that change. Yes, I'm talking about those who do not have a laptop or tweeter.

[The Magistrate]

107. Even In a Universe Of Reactionaries, Sir, Some Will Be Less Reactionary Than Others

It is the proper course for people on the left to support the least reactionary element in such a situation.

In local terms, Mousavi is a hair or two better on social issues, and accordingly is preferred by those in the cities.

[AlphaCentauri]

120. Implying that Iran has a democracy similar to ours

wouldn't those 2 political factions resemble in some aspects to our bipartisan system where both parties are supported by corporations and in terms of real leftist ideologies don't have nothing to offer to the members of the left as you are, so my question would be,

why the leftist have to support the less evil if it goes against its own moral values?

[The Magistrate]

127. The World Is What It Is, Sir

"Remember, if you don't vote for the right lizard, the wrong lizard might get in!"

[AlphaCentauri]

132. Then the left loss it's integrity supporting the system that put in power those lizards.

at that point the left stops from being a movement with moral values to become a commodity of the system.

[The Magistrate]

140. That, Sir, Has Been Argued Over Since At Least 1850 Or So

The system, remember, existed before the left, and the debate over whether taking what gains can be had as they can be had, or holding on for a complete overthrow, is very old.

[AlphaCentauri]

184. Social democracies are not that old

oppression and exploitation of the most vulnerable are

[anonymous171]

10. I like people who fuck with authority.

[OKNancy]

13. Good one! Best 7 word post I've seen in a long time. n/t

[Posteritatis]

31. Win! (nt)

[HughMoran]

36. That's the point...

...the O/P just doesn't get...

[bhikkhu]

73. I do too, but what do you expect to happen?

I don't like what I expect to happen, and I see very little reasonable approaches to help things. In the event of a massive crackdown, will the US intervene and perhaps give assistance to persecuted individuals and groups? Will we organize any kind of assistance, such as might have been done under UN auspices during the Myanmar persecutions? Do we have any kind of leverage to apply, such as might have been done during the Tibet persecutions? Do we have any kind of long-term vision or plan that can do anything for the people that we "like to see" in any of those places?

[JI7]

141. we don't know what will happen, we know that the place sucks right now and they aren't

going to get change if they at least not speak out against it. and there are people who put their lives at risk to get something better rather than live with what they have now.

[JackRiddler]

180. Tea Party! Tea Party! Rad Con, Dude!

[Blue Meany]

23. My take is that the Islamic leadership has lost its legitimacy, so

no matter what happens in the shortrun, in the long run it is over for them. They might be able to salvage some credibility, if the Council of Experts, which is headed by a supporter of Mousavi, removes Khamenei as Supreme Leader. But I think that if the current structure of government is to survive at all, both Ahmadenijad and Khamenei will have to go. They cannot rule by force alone, especially since they do not want to engage in massacres, because this would echo the last days of the Shah, and opponents are willing to go out on the streets and get beaten up. Also, it appears that anti-govt. folks are being to get organized to fight back. Word from North Tehran (full of Mousavi supporters) is that the newest night time passtime is "Basij hunting," where they lure paramilitaries into alleys and then attack them.

[The Magistrate]

26. It is Never Wise, Sir, To Assume A Government Cannot Rule By Force

And that a government will not employ force without stint or measure in an attempt to preserve itself in power.

[TahitiNut]

35. Sadly, it's what they do best, no matter what the government.

Government is, at its core, the local monopoly on violence.

:shrug:

[divineorder]

130. Government may rule by force, but force is people.

If enough soldiers, police, paramilitaries, whatever no longer want to suppress their fellow citizens and go home, then the force is worthless. Even better for the revolution if these people have a bone to pick with the hierarchy and turn their guns around. Who knows how many of these have already slunk away into the alleyways out of shame?

Guns do not fire themselves, nor are arrests made by robots. Moussavi says a General Strike if he's arrested-I bet there is one anyway. Let Dinnerjacket eat cake, and meet the fate of the person who first said that-very soon.

[The Magistrate]

145. That Is True, Ma'am: The Attitude Of The Soldiery Is Key In These Situations

It is more common than not, unfortunately, that men can be found to obey the order to shoot....

"The race is not always to the swift, nor the fight to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

"Revolutions seem impossible before they occur, and inevitable once they have."

[woo me with science]

40. What a limited and pathetic conception of humankind this reflects. nt

[Swede]

43. The same thing that happened in Eastern Europe.

Lots of people died there,but in the end the Communist dictatorships fell.

[Hannah Bell]

62. yes, & life is so much better for everyone now. what with that decline in life expectancy,

increase in poverty & crime & all.

now the people can be ruled by unaccountable *capitalist* oligarchs!

yay!

[Swede]

163. Most are now EU and NATO members,holding free elections.

It was in all the papers.

[Hannah Bell]

185. "free elections"! just like ours!

[AntiFascist]

49. It could have been much worse...

anyone following Iran on DU for the past several years would know that neocons have come to the brink several times in wanting to attack Iran. The motives were spelled in the PNAC doctrine and much of it boils down to control over the oil. When we bomb a foreign country, you don't always get to see the resulting carnage.

The "Green" Party members should be just as much against external oil aggression as they are against those, inside the Iranian government, who would place them in harm's way by challenging the outsiders.

[Joe the Revelator]

59. You are the problem

You're apathetic and that makes you disgusting.

You say "small group" when refering to the Iranian demonstrators. Have you actually taken the time to watch any of the raw coverage of this event? There were a million people in the streets during the last Mourning March.

You've become so bitter and cynical that you are no longer a use to any movement.

[starroute]

67. The real covert strategy for Iran has been one of Balkanization

The leading idea among both US and Israeli planners has been to prevent the emergence of any regional power in the Middle East by keeping the smaller nations weak and breaking up Iran on ethnic lines. (This is sometimes known as the Bernard Lewis strategy, after the venerable proto-Neocon who developed it.)

The current unrest in Iran may destabilize that nation for a time, but it seems likely to lead to either a hard military dictatorship or a reformed government with greater public support -- neither of which would serve the strategy of Balkanization as well as the current state of simmering discontent.

It is true that -- despite what The Magistrate said in post #22 -- US aid has not gone solely to Arab and Baluchi separatists and the MEK. The International Republican Institute has held trainings for would be pro-democracy activists in the Gulf states -- though I don't know how many or with what effectiveness. And there are also various groups of Iranian exiles in this country, many of them pining for the restoration of the monarchy.

The Abdorrahman Boroumand Foundation, for example, has gotten NED money to document Iranian human rights abuses. And there was a self-proclaimed Iranian dissident named Amir Abbas Fakhravar who was making the rounds of US Neocon circles in 2006 -- see http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articleId=12209.

I frankly don't see any signs that people of that stripe have any influence over the current Iranian protesters. But if there were any connection, that is were it would almost certainly have to be located.

[Hannah Bell]

79. Lots of money being handed out by lots of different actors: Iran Democracy Program Announcement

http://www.grants.gov/search/search.do?mode=VIEW&oppId=8370

Creation Date: Jul 27, 2006

Category Explanation: Support Democractic governance and reform.
Expected Number of Awards:
Estimated Total Program Funding: $7,000,000
Award Ceiling: $1,000,000
Award Floor: $100,000
CFDA Number(s): 19.500 -- Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI)
Cost Sharing or Matching Requirement: No


The Office of the Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI) announces an open competition for grant applications that support democratic governance and reform in Iran. This represents a new MEPI funding initiative and submissions must outline activities linked to reform and demonstrate how the proposed approach would achieve sustainable impact in Iran.

[The Magistrate]

85. And What Horrors, Ma'am, Are Disclosed Therein....

"The range of possible themes and issues includes, but is not limited to:

• freedom of association• the right of citizens to access independent sources of information;

•the right to advocate responsibly on important issues and debate ideas freely with other citizens and local, regional, and national government representatives without fear of retribution, including through democratically organized and legal political parties;

•the right to participate in local and national governance processes;

•the right to transparent and effective government services, including regular public accountability for monies spent;

•the right to speedy, fair, and transparent access to courts of law to settle civil, commercial, and criminal matters;

• the right to participate as candidates and supporters in transparently organized, free, fair and competitive democratic elections. "

[Hannah Bell]

92. just big money being handed out to affect iran's political landscape, "sir."

were you going to link me to that deleted post?

you know, the one where the op claimed the cia was behind everything?



Funding Opportunity Number: OAA-GRO-MEB-08-001-APS
Opportunity Category: Discretionary
Original Closing Date for Applications: Jun 30, 2009

Estimated Total Program Funding: $20,000,000
Award Ceiling: $3,000,000
Award Floor: $0
CFDA Number(s): 98.001 -- USAID Foreign Assistance for Programs Overseas
Cost Sharing or Matching Requirement: No

The United States Agency for International Development (USAID) is seeking applications from eligible institution as described in Section A.1.e., that promote democracy, human rights, and the rule of law in Iran. Applications should advance one or more of the following objectives: strengthening civil society organization and advocacy; increasing awareness of and strengthening the rule of law; and expanding freedom of information. USAID intends to make several awards under this APS for a total of up to $20 million.

[The Magistrate]

96. So Far, Ma'am, You Have Ponied Up Twenty-Seven Millions

That is not even one dollar per Iranian. This is not pints of milk from UNICEF, after all....

And one is, of course, moved to wonder what your opposition to fomenting human rights in Iran is. It would be discourteous to suppose you actually approve of hanging Ba'hais and homosexuals, for instance....

[Hannah Bell]

152. as you certainly know, "sir," in these matters one doesn't have to give money to every

iranian.

yes, that would be quite discourteous, but well in keeping with your fondness for straw men. "sir".

[neverforget]

69. They should all just go home and watch Iranian Idol since it's tough

work changing/challenging the status quo. :eyes:

[MadHound]

77. You obviously have no grasp of what is happening in Iran

Your broadbrush attacks and huge generalities show that you know neither the history of or the political and social scene in Iran. Here's a few things for you to chew on.

First of all, despite your CIA conspiracy theories, it is highly doubtful that the US has had an sort of success with "insurgency operations." Iran is a closed and tight knit society, and these protests aside, there are few, very few in Iran who like, much less work with the US. If you don't have people inside a country, then it's mighty damn hard to have "insurgency operations." (PS, we face the same problem in N. Korea). If we did have this sort of reach, don't you think that some Republican would have already hit the go button on an Iranian uprising?

Second, if you keep up with the coverage coming out of Iran, the crowds who are protesting against the current regime are both large and quite peaceful. They are not brandishing guns, they are marching, sometime silently, and when confronted with armed forces, they either sit down or flee. There are very few streetfighters among them because they realize that large peaceful protests are their best weapon.

I suggest that you do two things: First, study Iran, study their history, their people and their culture. Preferably speak about these matters with somebody who is from Iran. Second, watch the coverage coming out of Iran. Your nonsense about armed protesters just goes to show how damn ignorant you are on this subject.

[Hannah Bell]

80. I believe it was the Magistrate who brought up the CIA, not the OP.

[MadHound]

97. Actually I haven't read the other posts on this thread,

Though I'll correct that here directly. However the OP did refer to "millions to fund "insurgency operations"" and the Shah, so that usually refers to the CIA. But really now, it doesn't matter which of the US alphabet of intelligence agencies that you're referring to, my point remains the same, Iran is a really tough nut for any Western power to crack.

[The Magistrate]

84. That is An Excellent Point, Mr. Hound

It is not as if Iran at present is particularly easy terrain for U.S. agents to operate in. The situation is hardly what it was when the coup against Mr. Mossadegh was contrived.

[Hannah Bell]

99. how about iranian recipients of foreign funds?

[MadHound]

105. Everyday Iranians usually don't receive foreign funds

I worked with a man from Iran who had to go through all kinds of hoops to transfer funds back home to his family, including Iranian government forms, and changing dollars into more acceptable currencies like Euros. If somebody shows up in Iran with US dollars, they are automatically marked and investigated.

[Hannah Bell]

128. so what? unordinary iranians do, & so do ngo's. The US channeled funds to Soviet dissidents,

you think they can't get money into iran?

and the US government isn't the only channel.

[MadHound]

134. And any Iranian showing up with inordinate amounts of foreign currency,

Especially dollars, is going to be automatically suspect and can look forward to a nice "visit" with the Republican Guard.

Getting money in through channels that would make that money look legit is truly tough in Iran. Getting money into Iran period is tough. What do you propose, an airdrop?

Iran is a very tightly controlled society whose citizens are under constant surveillance, both by the government and their fellow citizens. Anything, anything at all that is unusual is reported and dealt with.

Is it possible to get money into Iran, certainly, but not in the quantity needed to foment a revolution. Besides if we had that kind of access to Iranian dissidents, don't you think that some dumb Republican president would have tried to light the fuse long ago?

You're under the impression that US intelligence forces are these all knowing, all powerful ubermensch, when the fact of the matter is US intelligence, especially human intelligence, has been the joke of the international intelligence community ever since WWII.

[Hannah Bell]

138. no, the US isn't all-knowing, all-seeing, but the iranian security services are.

lol. more powerful than the kgb!

there are dozens to hundreds of foreign ngos & foreign corps operating in iran, foreign student exchanges, & foreign embassies.

the US occupies iraq on one side & afghanistan on the other.

there's significant regional, religious, class & ethnic conflict to be exploited.

the prime movers of the coup are wealthy with global ties to other global operators & supporters in iran.

but no one can get money into iran...

[MadHound]

146. Do you know anybody who has lived in Iran,

Who has lived under the Iranian regime? I do, and yes, it is a well surveilled police state where citizens spy on each other and turn each other in. Just because you're ignorant on this matter doesn't mean that the rest of us are. So I suggest that you go educate yourself, talk to somebody who has lived in Iran, and if you can't find somebody who has lived there, read, educate yourself. I suggest that you start with works by Azar Nafisi, specifically "Reading Lolita in Tehran." Perhaps once you've educated yourself you can come back and we can have an intelligent conversation.

[Hannah Bell]

149. I was married to an iranian dissident in 1978 to keep him from being deported.

does that answer your question?

i know a bit more about iranian politics than you might think.

[MadHound]

151. So, in 1978, he was dissenting against the Shah?

And really now, how did you slide that one by immigration services?

Sorry, but given the ignorance that you've shown on this thread, I have a real hard time believing you.

[Hannah Bell]

154. yes. you get married, you go to an interview with immigration, they take you in separate

rooms & ask you questions like "how long have you known him? where did you meet? has your family met him? what are his parents' names?"

i don't give a damn what you believe.

[MadHound]

158. Still didn't answer my first question, who was he dissenting against? The Shah?

Oh, and did you receive any follow up visits from immigration services once you were "married"? Sorry, but this seems like an all to convenient fiction for you, a point you can try and score in order to cover up your gross ignorance on this subject.

[Hannah Bell]

162. did you read the "yes"? how old are you, btw?

[MadHound]

165. Hard to tell what that "yes" was in response to,

Since your grammar and posting is a bit confusing. Oh well.

So you "married" a dissident of the Shah's eh. And in what camp was he then, the Ayatollah's?

And again, did you receive and follow up visits from immigration once you were "married"?

And my age is probably comparable with yours. Suffice it to say, I was an adult when the '79 revolution went down.

[Hannah Bell]

170. Since you know so much about Iran, you know that before the shah fell,

the US gov't, shall we say, "lost interest" in supporting him.

Believe what you like.

[MadHound]

172. And that has what to do with the price of tea in China?

The fact of the matter is that both you and the OP are pushing some sort of grand US conspiracy theory that somehow the US is behind all this, when the reality of the matter is that you're not giving Iranians credit for being able to decide their own political matters on their own, without our help. Your position is patronizing to say the least, and you've shown time and again your ignorance on all matters Iranian, despite your "marriage" or whatever it was.

[Hannah Bell]

174. "pushing some sort of grand US conspiracy theory that somehow the US is behind all this"

nope, i'm not, unfortunately most people seem to be wedded to black/white interpretations of history.

[bhikkhu]

95. Criticism accepted, with two caveats

the CIA was never mentioned by myself, and is no part of any of my original question. And I also have made no mention of "armed protesters" anywhere, and I haven't read or heard about any armed protesters. You must have misread.

The rest is a recommendation for more research and understanding on the subject, which I am happy to accept.

[The Magistrate]

98. You Linked, Sir, To An Article Claiming C.I.A. Funding Of Dissident Groups

And attempting to link that to the present situation. The meaning of the thing was clear.

[bhikkhu]

101. It was the first thing that came up on a quick search. This would have been better:

http://kucinich.house.gov/news/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=42505

[The Magistrate]

109. That is a Much Better Article, Sir

And you will note it refers specifically to minority ethnicities far from the capital, and to one hard left survival with virtually no footing remaining in Iran itself. None of these recipients would be able to get so many as twenty people to a demonstration in Tehran. Nothing in Rep. Kucinich's statements three years ago has the slightest bearing on the present situation.

[Hannah Bell]

103. do you deny that the us has channeled funds to dissidents?

i think you'll have a hard time supporting that claim.

[The Magistrate]

110. If By Deny, Ma'am, You Mean Describe Accurately Who Has Received Such Funds

And their actual political footing within Iran, then perhaps....

[Hannah Bell]

121. sorry, can't parse your grammar. try being less pretentious.

[The Magistrate]

124. What Possible Advantage, Ma'am, Do You Think You Gain By That Confession?

"What other people think of me is none of my damn business."

[Hannah Bell]

131. no advantage, "sir," still waiting for you to show me that deleted post.

[The Magistrate]

143. You Are Seriously Asking For A Link To A Deleted Post, Ma'am?

"I think we're going to need another Timmy!"

[Hannah Bell]

147. Posts removed by mods show as "deleted". Where is it?

[bhikkhu]

164. It was insignificant

I'm not sure what was there that got it deleted, but it was basically insignificant.

[Hannah Bell]

175. you're sure you didn't say "the cia is behind the events in iran"? because i know the magistrate

wouldn't tell a falsehood....

[bhikkhu]

177. I posted a link to US funding of Iraqi regime change

The intent was just to post a reference to my statement that it was common knowledge that the US was involved in such funding. I've read about it myself for years, and objected to it in principle.

Anyway, I didn't have a ready news source so I did a quick google search and posted the first link that detailed some of the history. It also apparently named the CIA as behind involved, which I don't care about one way or another myself. Who carries the bag isn't the issue - its that we would essentially fund an insurgency in an ostensibly democratic nation.

And whether that effort has led directly or indirectly to the current events I also have no idea and would be beside the point. The clearer cause and effect relation is that there was a reformer (Khatami) in office in Iran a few years back during the Iraq war, when we were both openly speaking of regime change, funding opposition groups, and regularly leaking invasion plans. All of which had some effect on their internal politics such that Ahmadinejad won the next election and the clerics wound up back in the driver's seat.

[Hannah Bell]

178. was that before the magistrate made post #3 & got your "i don't know" answer?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5887466&mesg_id=5887494

[bhikkhu]

186. No.

on edit: double checking the record here


at 5:11 posted "I don't know"

at 5:43 posted google-searched reference with dubious CIA mention in response to "based on what" question. Since deleted, without objection.

[MadHound]

100. A bit of clarification

You mentioned millions of dollars being used for "insurgency operations", and also mentioned the Shah in your OP. This combination usually means CIA, but in the end it really doesn't matter which of the myriad of US alphabet intelligence agencies you're talking about, my premise remains, Iran is a tough nut for any Western power, much less the US, to crack.

As far as armed protesters, I did indeed misread, my apologies.

[Hannah Bell]

104. he didn't misread, he's fond of straw men.

[MadHound]

106. And yet it is you who, for no good reason, have become insulting for no good reason

Let me ask you something, have you studied Iran? Do you know anybody in Iran? Do you know the scope of Iranian politics and society? If not, I suggest that you educate yourself rather than trying to be insulting.

[Hannah Bell]

116. did the op say the cia was behind events in iran, or did he not?

[MadHound]

122. I replied to that upthread, post 97

Why do you want me to repeat myself?

[Hannah Bell]

135. Did the OP make the claim, or not? The "magistrate" claims he did.

But he didn't.

Since the magistrate makes straw man claims, it's no "insult," but *fact* to state he's fond of straw men.

You "hadn't read the thread," but made the same claim.

The OP said the US had sent funds to insurgent (dissident) groups in iran every year.

This is *fact*.

The OP did not say the CIA was the instigator of the current demos in iran.

[MadHound]

142. Sounds that this is a problem between the Magistrate and yourself, why not leave me out of it?

I gave you my reply to this question upthread in post 97, and the answer hasn't changed since, no matter how much you whine and stomp your feet. I gave a measured, nuanced, intelligent answer based on my knowledge of Iran, Iranian government and Iranian people. You don't like that, oh well. Continuing to insist that I answer that question again isn't going to change matters, so you might as well accept my original answer in post 97 and deal with it.

As far as the OP claiming that the US had sent funds to insurgents in Iran, well, where is the proof? Did the OP provide any? Know, he simply seems to be going with the common wisdom, but provides no proof to back up his claim. Yet any Iranian or Iranian expert will tell you that it's mighty damn hard to get foreign funds into Iran, you know, closed, police state society and all that. Besides, don't you think that if we had been regularly funding Iranian dissidents for years that we would have pushed the button for the revolution to begin years ago?

I also realize that the OP didn't say that the CIA was the instigator of the current demonstrations, neither did I, so stop trying to put words in my mouth.

[Hannah Bell]

144. "First of all, despite your CIA conspiracy theories, it is highly doubtful that the US has had..."

[MadHound]

148. Again, I refer you to post 97,

Please go read that and get back to me, or better yet, don't. Your insane, obsessed fixation on this one point has gone beyond annoying and is starting to creep into the bizarre/creepy end of the scale.

[Hannah Bell]

150. i read your post 97, where you say even though the poster didn't literally *say*

cia, that's what people usually *mean* when they claim money is being sent to insurgents.

if you're not interested in the point, why do you keep replying?

who's insane?

[MadHound]

153. Well hurrah, perhaps we can proceed from here

Did you also notice that I mentioned that it really didn't matter which of the agencies doing the deed, it really didn't matter. Getting hundreds of dollars into Iran is damn near impossible, much less millions. Do you deny that?

[Hannah Bell]

155. yes, i deny it. with the proper contacts it's quite possible to send millions *anywhere*.

[MadHound]

161. Then frankly you're ignorant in this matter,

This isn't the movies where the almighty US intelligence services can miraculously do anything they want, this is real life, where things are much more complicated, and the US intelligence services are much more incompetent.

Again, foreign currency is a rarity in Iran(you should know this, after all, don't you claim to have been "married" to an Iranian?) Anybody showing up in the country with large amounts of foreign currency is automatically going to be suspect, and would be hauled in and questioned until they provide satisfactory answers.

[Hannah Bell]

173. Why would you assume funds would be in US dollars?

...Current captive nations include Belarus, Burma, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Syria, Sudan, and Zimbabwe.

USAID is a leader in the promotion of democracy and good governance in accordance with the President's Freedom Agenda to end tyranny...

USAID's work in this field has spanned the last two decades, and the Agency has led the charge at pivotal times of democratic change in countries such as Ukraine, Georgia and Afghanistan...

Under the Freedom Agenda, the United States strengthens support for pro-democracy dissidents and activists and provides assistance to emerging democracies seeking to build institutions that sustain liberty...

...This budget requests $1.72 billion for these activities, up from approximately $1.36 billion in Fiscal Year 2008 and $650 million in Fiscal Year 2001.

For more information about USAID and its democracy and governance programs please visit:

http://www.usaid.gov/press/releases/2008/pr080724.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. The last time something like that HAPPENED in Iran it was 1979

you MIGHT want to read some history.

No, uprisings like this don't result in revolutions every time, that is successful ones, but they do happen.

Oh more recent examples... UKRAINE.

So try picking up a history book... and chiefly READYING IT.

Or should we just cheer for rigged elections? Ok given MOST Muricans staid home in 2000 and 2004 I guess that is exactly what you want.

[bhikkhu]

133. The reason I ask "what do you think will happen" is recent history

What did you think would happen in Tibet when the monks protested, and in Myanmar when there were protests, and in the Chiapas, and in many other places? They all get the same kind of heroic "freedom on the march" coverage, we all cheer, then its on to the next story. What I would rather see is a serious consideration of underlying causes - a change in foreign policy which is more effective in moderating oppressive regimes than in playing along with them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Chiapas was covered in the US? That is a shock to me

given I know about it a little more than you

Here is a free clue, Chiapas has independent regions from the central government for all intents and purposes and subcomandante Marcos is STILL running around.

Here is more about him and his high command

They are all from Monterrey and Guadalajara, Ladinos (that is white) and mostly hard core Marxists (and no, I have nothing against Marxism, just pointing out what they are.)

Here is another free clue. The others were suppressed before they lost control. The central government already did.

Now here is my question to you. Should we all seat on our assess when a wrong is committed? In other words, some people are actually willing to die for something. It is high time Americans learn that, we might have to.

[bhikkhu]

166. I agree 100%.

I mentioned Chiapas as an example of short attention spans in the US - it was covered in the media, but for about two weeks. While everyone here was captivated for a short time by the drama they likely have no idea what ever really happened, much less what the current state of affairs are.

My question "what do you think will happen" was meant partly as a prod. What ever happened in all those other places? Who knows - the media moved on to something else. We never have to think about what happens to the people, we just cheer for whatever we our attention is directed to at the moment. I have no illusion that the current situation in Iran is any different.

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. The others are not over either

Chiapas is not, Myamnar is an ongoing struggle... and so it goes

This one is NOT the first time, they had demos two and five years ago. They lost control already.

What will happen is that HOPEFULLY the people will get some of what they want

Realize 1\3 of NATO countries Embassies are receiving refugees, as well as two OAS states, and the Swiss (charge d' Affairs to the US)

Now the US has a short attention span...but even for Katrina, so what is new>

[agent46]

115. Dead On. n/t

[Life Long Dem]

125. Who provoked what?

The election provoked the Iranian's, and not a Bush bullying a nuclear confrontation.

[TheKentuckian]

139. It seems we have an element that values anti-Americanisim even over self-determination

and the "peace" of subjectivity over the dangers of struggling for freedom.

[Odin2005]

157. They are self-proclaimed "Leftists" spouting the same garbage spewed by Stalin apoloigists.

They are black-and-white thinkers, secular Manicheans that are as intellectually empty as the GOP. Marxism is dead and we ripped the controls ship of state out of the hands of the Neocon Crypto-Fascists last fall, saving Liberal Democracy and what Karl Popper called "the open society". Now the people of Iran are trying to create an open society and are being attacked my Maoist Morons that are just as much enemies of the open society as the Fascists.

[Odin2005]

159. I am all for helping the people of Iran overthrow their theocratic oppressors.

It would be redemption for 1953.

[bhikkhu]

167. I think they just want a fair election.

I'd be all for doing whatever could be done to ensure that, but its very difficult for one country to get involved in the election process of another. As difficult as it is for one country to get an election right without outside interference. I hope there is a reasonable outcome in Iran, as a questionably elected government can quickly become the oppressors rather than the servants of its people...but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about whether the people of Iran really want our help to overthrow their current government, much less determine its character.

[boppers]

182. I expect the right to assemble, the right to free speech, and the right to vote.

You know, those universal things that all people should have, regardless of their state.

I think it's what they want, too.

[jeanpalmer]

183. The MIC's policy toward the Iranian government

is one of destabalization and regime change. Therefore, you should work for the opposite. Don't ever give the MIC what it wants. That's a hard and fast rule.

We want to undermine the MIC to the fullest extent possible. If you give the MIC a foothold in Iran, these naive demonstrators are going to pay a price. Similar to the price that the people of Iraq are now paying for having the MIC run their government. No reasonable person should wish that on anyone.

The MIC is trying to overthrow Ahmadinejad. Iran is the last link in their policy of dominating ME and Central Asia oil. We don't want to do anything that gives Iran to the MIC.

[comrade snarky]

187. That has to be the single most childish plan I have ever heard.

And I'm including my plan to throw dirt clods at that bully kid when I was 7.

[divineorder]

188. I suspect that is the excuse of all dictators

The MIC, the CIA, whatever, is behind all dissent and upheaval. Therefore any discontent is artificial. Even if you are a woman, and live a life of harassment for wearing bright colored clothes or lipstick. Even if you are tired of censors blocking websites and books. Even if you haven't had a job in years. Even if your relatives are tortured for no reason.

Look at those people throwing rocks and demonstrating. Do they look like people who have even seen a dime of outside money from anybody except maybe an expat relative? I doubt if they even have a passport. Look at the neighborhoods-do you honestly think CIA or other groups even go into them and talk to these people and find out what they think?

The CIA likes to fund elite folks like expat millionaires, not poor students who barely have enough money for books. The expat millionaires are the ones who could make deals with other plutocrats in the world, not bus drivers and secretaries who go to work every day.