To you very loyal Democrats. If the Democratic Congress and President can not give us decent health

[rhett o rick]

care, will you agree that we need to go outside the party. Rahm Emanuel is not our friend.

Our choice is either to take over the party or get out. Tell me the truth. What chances do we have against the DLC and their corporate money?

[Double T]

1. Rahm Emanuel is wall street's, corporate america's and HMO/PPO's friend.

There are no other friends. enough said.

[Kansas Wyatt]

52. Then it is time to throw Rahm Emanuel under the bus.

Screwing over America on health care will cost the Democratic Party dearly in 2010 and 2012, and they will deserve it. All those in leadership positions, within the Democratic Party, can scratch the heads and wonder why people vote against their ALLEGED 'best interests' again, because they won't have the slightest clue if they continue on the path of screwing up health care reform.

If Rahm Emanuel is the one pushing Corporate America's position, then he needs to go immediately. I do not give a damn whether he is caught with his hand in the cookie jar or in some boy's pants, all Corporate Whores need to be thrown out. If someone has some dirt on him, they need to expose him right now, before he does anymore damage.

Millions of Americans VOTED for change, and continuing to suck Corporate American cock is NOT change!
The DU can get pissed all it wants with me and send me away for wishing ill on alleged Democrats, but it cannot justify or condone that last sentence.

[rhett o rick]

71. It is easy to say that Emanuel should be thrown under the bus, it is quite another

to do it. Remember the Pres we elected chose Emanuel over Dean.

How do we counter that?

[MADem]

2. OK, I'll bite. Go outside the party....to WHERE?

Keeping in mind, of course, that the purpose of taking action is to achieve the result of getting "decent health care."

Who will offer that up? The GOP?

And how do you propose that "we" take over the party, if we don't "get out?"

I don't think there's critical mass for throwing the Dems out on their ears.

[rhett o rick]

7. Ok you got me. I am stumped. I dont see us taking over the party. I dont no what to do. nm

[Political Heretic]

15. It's time to start addressing the system itself.

Introducing a "third party" into this broken system won't help or work. Once people start to realize (as I have) that even when Democrats have everything they could ask for in politics, they still find excuses for not fundamentally changing the status quo because that it unacceptable to corporate/MIC masters and the financial elite who run the country.

Our government "is the shadow cast by Big Business on the people." As people start waking up to the fundamental brokenness of our entire national political farce, there is some hope that we can organize a resistance to this oppressive regime of dominance and transform it into something that truly represents the masses rather than the oligarchical few.

[MADem]

24. I think we have to start with the Supreme Court, then.

They've ruled that MONEY=SPEECH. Poor people need to make the Supremes understand that NO MONEY=MUZZLED. Separate and UNEQUAL.

[sendero]

26. That is indeed..

.... the root of the problem. I wish I knew how to fix it.

[rhett o rick]

39. But it is not possible to work via the Party structure to replace DINO's.

Maybe moveon or pda can but we can't via the party structure. It's been tried. We took a major hit when Pres Obama choose Emanuel over Dean, Specter over all others, etc.

[CANDO]

67. Major trouble organizing against our corporate master parties.

I had a very nasty argument with my former hard right/now hard libertarian mother last night. It completely ruined my Fathers Day weekend and it just exploded out of next to nothing. But what I heard were things that I tend to agree with such as the system is broken, yada yada. But the Ayn Rand libertarians are already sort of outside the system and look how difficult it is for them to get supporters. So as more people may begin looking for third parties, they will be splintered all over the map anyway. Seems fruitless. I'm just almost distraught at the failure and cowardice of the Dems since we put them back in charge.

[KakistocracyHater]

68. I DO, if the Right can get 'regular Americans' elected by hell so can we

aim first for getting onto garbage boards, watchdog groups, go to local county meetings-BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE LIKABLE. Misfits like me-never gonna happen. But a likable gal or fellow, you can do it. It's how THEY did it. School Supervisor to House Rep to Senator.....maybe more...

[Oregone]

20. Another country

:)

Who fucking cares? I mean, if the only "liberal" viable party will not do it, despite activism, what's the point in trying? Why go anywhere?

[MADem]

25. Well, I suggested the Supreme Court. But we need a good argument....

and maybe better Justices.

[Kablooie]

22. Let's all go to Iran.

[MADem]

23. If I could help, I'd be there. My heart's there. NT

[rucky]

28. Seems both parties are falling over themselves to woo the mysterious 40% voting bloc...

called "Independents"

The decision to de-register really depends on your ability to vote in primaries in your state. I was discussing the rottenness of congress with a Republican friend of mine, and this we both agreed on: We're not going to see real change until we start voting out incumbents - D or R - doesn't matter, and making challengers more viable. They need to know that their jobs are never safe, but we're too comfy as voters in a two-party system to really change things - even when we've had the power all along with our votes.

The less secure we can make Congress feel about our support of them, the more they'll work for us.

[MADem]

35. It's still gamed, no matter what. If you're an indy, your choice, if both candidates

aren't touting your (generic "your") menu of issues, is between "Dumb and Dumber."

And then, there are the mischief maker independents, who go out in primaries where they're allowed to vote, and vote for the weakest candidate to set up "their" guy or gal on the other team for success. I've always thought Independents should be excluded from primaries for that precise reason. Pick a party--you don't have to vote for your party nominee in the general if they suck, but troublemaking just screws the process.

I don't think voting out incumbents is the answer. It's great for Republicans, because when you do that, you usually go the other way, to the other party.

I think getting money out of politics is the way to make them honest. The views they espouse while they are running will be the views they espouse while they're serving, if we can prevent the lobbyists from waving cash at them and changing their minds.

Big sea change, there. The lobbyists will claim that their rights to throw money at people and "sell" them on their views are being abrogated.

[Tesha]

65. Some states manage to elect independents to Congress.

Surely in Massachusetts you've heard of Bernie Sanders, the
socialist, excuse me, "independent" senator from Vermont?
It's a neighboring state to Mass.

Other states could do this as well.

Tesha

[MADem]

69. Ahhhh....but..... Bernie's a fixture in VT. He's been around for years.

I remember him when he was a local yokel in Burlington.

VT is a tiny, very white state. It's not a diverse entity with many constituencies.

A diverse state is less likely to elect an independent. Face facts--look at the Indys in the Senate. There's good old Bern, and there's Holy Joe Lieberman (who kited off his former affiliation, AND his tenure, to hang in there). That's it.

It ain't a quorum.

Other states could do it, certainly--you are quite right--- but they are not inclined to so do. That's just reality as I see it, not an endorsement, mind you.

[Tarheel_Dem]

3. I'm sure you'll get plenty of kudos at DU for such an idea, but in the real

world, the Dems are the best chance we have for getting any kind of meaningful health reform. I just wish that people would stop trying to split the party. The president and MOST Dems in congress are on board with reform. A bit early to start a revolt, don't you think?

[peacetalksforall]

4. The Party will be split if there isn't grand relief and the stop of theft of citizens..

The line is drawn.

Bow to corporations - or -

Curb and stop the corporations.

Republicans and Democrats must stop the gouging, jets for ceo's, golden parachutes, expensive art in the lobby, OUTRAGEOUSLY PAID LOBBYISTS AND ELECTED OFFICIALS ON THE TAKE.

I will leave by dropping out. In hopelessness.

How many more years do we have to watch the DLC sell us out?

I seem to be angrier under the Democrats that I was the Republicans. The anger comes from expecting more, expecting corrections, making them come to a sreeching halt of all the excessive take. Getting cheating Dems to stop or bow out for th egood of the citizens is my focus -they are the ones who are splitting the PARty. IT'S THEM, not me! Under the Republicans we knew who our enemies were. They didn't try to fool us about who they were.

I am losing my interest in mollifying myself or others and excusing the DLC. They don't deserve to take and keep in taking. They are cheating us. They are pompous, arrogant, and greedy for themselves.

Edited again to repeat - they are the ones who are splitting our Party. We can't afford the DLC.

[Tarheel_Dem]

6. Like I said, DU is not the real world. I have no interest in fighting about the DLC.

And I also have no interest in fighting for the progressive caucus. As our system stands, there are two choices. Third parties have tried and failed in our system. What you must understand is that our system of representative government gives us representation of all stripes. Dennis Kucinich (I assume) represents the left leaning district that voted for him, and Health Shuler (also a democrat) represents the right leaning district that voted for him.

Surely you recognize that Democrats in North Carolina may not be as liberal as Democrats in Massachussetts, right?

[defendandprotect]

9. This is nonsense . . .

third parties can't go anywhere because of the extreme limitations put upon them
by the two-parties -- Dems and Repugs.

Additionally, the two parties have prevented IRV voting -- which would preclude any
"spoiler" effect that third parties might have.

Further, the two-parties also have agreed on controls which prevent even more liberal
Democrats to come forward -- notice that Edwards and Kucinich were bounced from the debates!
Dems and Repugs have created a corporation to run the presidential debates!!

Our one primary problem is CAMPAIGN FINANCE BRIBERY . . . and that is the only reality --
and the most essential problem we have to work on, but obviously neither Dems nor Repugs
who profit from this system will be willing to change it. They are kept in power by this
system as long as they do corporate-dirty-work. And the corporate-press is also beholden
to this cycle of Campaign Finance Bribery because they get 80% of the campaign funds!

Shirley, you recognize that Democrats in North Carolina need national health care - MEDICARE
FOR ALL -- as much as Democrats in Massachusetts?

And that Democrats in North Carolina are just as substantially harmed by CAMPAIGN FINANCE
BRIBERY as Democrats in Massachusetts?????

PS: Debate is not "fighting." You're here to debate issues, hopefully not to ignore them!

[rhett o rick]

10. So you are content to let the right-leaning Democrats run the party? nm

[Tarheel_Dem]

11. I'm not sure you know how much of the electorate identifies itself as progressive?

I think most of the country is in a center left frame of mind currently, but that can change quickly, as it did in '94. I don't think demonizing Democrats, whether they be right leaning or otherwise, is a particularly effective way to move forward. Can't we just accept that outside of DU, there are moderate and conservative Democrats who will seldom agree with the progressive caucus?

I think what you're inciting is similar to what Rush Limbaugh and the current GOP are calling for, and that's weeding out those whose politics differ from your own. In my opinion, it's quite dangerous to have the rubber stamp conformity we all deplored during the Bush years.

[Selatius]

13. I think the majority of voters in America favor a public option. If Dems don't deliver, ...

there will be defections like in 1994. A lot of Democrats stayed home in 1994 because they felt they were being ignored in favor of powerful interest groups and also because of the passage of NAFTA with few provisions regarding labor protections.

Third parties can and do have an impact on the two establishment parties. Social Security was basically a rip-off of the Socialist Party's platform in the early 1900s. Roosevelt passed it not just because he felt it was right; he passed it in order to prevent mass defections from the party like how the Whig Party collapsed.

[Tarheel_Dem]

14. Agreed. Americans overwhelmingly favor a public option. But the o.p.

is talking about taking over the Democratic Party, which I assume means weeding out anyone who doesn't conform to his/her idea of a "true democrat". I, too, favor a public option as do many Republicans. But unlike the o.p., I don't feel it necessary to drive Democrats out of the party, who don't toe the party line.

[Selatius]

17. I think the question really should be changed to who is driving out whom.

I think somebody is already being driven out of the party, but I don't think center-right Democrats are it. If recent polling is accurate, a strong majority of voters support a viable public option, but as things stand, Congress looks to deliver a crippled public option, almost designed to fail.

[Tarheel_Dem]

18. Can we wait to see what Congress delivers before we pre-judge?

And as for anyone being driven out of the party, that's a personal choice. I say, if you're unhappy, as with anything, you should just go. This is not to say that one shouldn't fight for one's convictions, but unlike the current GOP, I don't think it necessary to force out the people who don't believe exactly as I do.

The Democratic Party, as it currently stands, is a mish-mash of every political leaning under the sun; from very conservative to extremely liberal, and I think that's a good thing as it shows tolerance.

[Selatius]

19. Sure, we can wait, but to qualify it, I wouldn't hold my breath for a truly viable public option.

I know the odds in this game. They don't look too good right now. I don't claim to know the future, but from this vantage point, it just doesn't look good. There's a lot of money involved with the health insurance industry, and they're using it to drown out a lot of voices not driven by self-interest but by principle.

[rhett o rick]

45. The op said nothing about "driving Democrats out" of the Party. The op wants to drive out corporate

influence. Let me correct that. I am more than willing to drive out Specter, Baucus, etc. because I don't believe they are Democrats. They are repukes in sheeps clothing. If we allow them to continue to run our party we are screwed.

A strong majority of the public wants significant change in health care and the Democrats in Congress are balking.

[rhett o rick]

42. When the Democrats fail to deliver AGAIN, the people will do nothing.

they thought they sent a message in 2006 and 2008. And Rahm Emanuel says they dont need us. And they don't. What you going to do vote republican. We are stuck.

[tan guera]

64. To get them to listen

we need to stop funding them.

And to avoid having to vote for "dumb and dumber," I think we could pull everyone together for a third party. Lots of voters will have no place to go, so the time is right and timing is everything.

[Political Heretic]

16. How did they get to a "center left" frame of mind?

Did it just happen by magic?

We fight, we organize and we advocate for the society that we want. We don't stick our fingers in the air and go, welp some people still don't want change so I guess we should all go home.

[Atticus]

33. But, surely you recognize---

That when single payer is excluded from the discussion from the get-go by a "Democrat" who gets 25-30% of his contributions from "medical interests", some of us want some "Democrat with power" to grab the bastard by the throat and threaten to "gouge out his eyes and puke into his empty skull". (figuatively speaking, of course)

YOUR PROPS: I'm a fairly new poster, but have lurked for years. I've always found your posts thoughtful and positive. Thanks.

[madfloridian]

57. Bull Hockey. Shuler was handpicked by Rahm.

Rahm lost us a seat in FL by handpicking a Republican millionaire fundamentalist who had two affairs and lost the election.

He also handpicked Shuler.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2006/nov/12/nation/chi-rahm-emanuel

Shuler considered running as a Republican, but Rahm won him over to be a Democrat. I guess.

"A MACHO MAKEOVER

All of Emanuel’s scolding and cajoling would have meant nothing if he fielded weak candidates. After yet another devastating loss in 2004, he and other Democratic leaders quickly determined that the party needed a machismo implant. Emanuel looked for candidates with strong backgrounds, from sheriffs to soldiers, to counteract a Democratic image of softness.

This is why he badly wanted Heath Shuler, a former football star, to run for Congress as a Democrat in North Carolina. An evangelical Christian who opposes abortion, Shuler couldn’t easily have his views caricatured by the GOP. But Shuler was worried that if he ran and won, he would never see his two young children. To prove that congressmen do spend time with their children, Emanuel started calling Shuler in early 2005 whenever he was with his own family.

Shuler would pick up the phone and hear, “It’s Rahm. I’m at a soccer game with my kids. Just wanted you to know that.” Or “It’s Rahm. I’m at a kindergarten play now. Talk to you soon.” Shuler received perhaps 10 such calls. Of course, this also illustrated that whenever Emanuel was with his family, he was working.

In any case, Shuler agreed to jump in the race, challenging a 16-year incumbent and becoming one of the Democrats’ hottest candidates. “I was recruited from high school to play college football, I was recruited by almost every college in the country, and then I was recruited into the NFL,” said Shuler, a former Washington Redskins quarterback.

“I know all the angles that people use to recruit you,” he added. “Nobody does it as well as Rahm Emanuel.”

[Tarheel_Dem]

58. Mad, we all you know you have a bee in your bonnet for Rahm. I have no..

problem with him, or Heath Shuler for that matter. I was just pointing out that Shuler represents the people of his conservative district. Dennis Kucinich, or Mel Watt probably wouldn't stand a chance in that district. You guys are scaring the hell out of me. I hope when you've successfully purged the party of all the unclean Dems, whom you deem insufficiently progressive, there will still be a party left.

[madfloridian]

61. Don't you dare accuse me of purging anyone. I consider that insulting.

That is not what I write about. I write about things that our party should stand for. And right now we are NOT standing for very much.

You are scaring me with your judging of others.

[rhett o rick]

43. We will see. But right now there are very powerful Democrats that are not

supporting the middle class. How long do we wait? How many unemployed, how many uninsured, how many in bread lines. In Seattle they were having huge turn outs at the food banks. Hard to control the crowd. Rahm Emanuel spits in our faces. How long do we wait. Until more DINO's like Specter come aboard?

The corporations figured out to switch to the Democrats. Can you spell DLC?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

5. Have you ever tried to change a 'corporate' health system to a people-friendly one?

The formation of the NHS was an incredible achievement against enormous opposition, not least from a layer of doctors who felt their interests were threatened

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/6224
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beveridge_Report
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1113457

[rhett o rick]

46. So you're saying be happy with what you get. I say bull shit. We been doing that for

far too long. There is no excuse to not change the system to a strong public option. If you are saying that the corporations have too strong on our Congress, which they do, then I am saying it is time to change our Congress. But can't do it via the weak-kneed Party of Rahm Emanuel.

[mwooldri]

70. Which is why I don't get why America can't have something like the NHS.

Labour had a landslide victory, full control of Parliament - could do pretty much anything.

The Democratic Party have a huge majority in the House, 59 Senators who say they're Democrats and a Democratic President. Why can't they just push it through? The excuse of "not got the votes"??? Where are the whips whipping Congress - both House and Senate - into line? You either back universal health care or you resign the Democratic Party? Why not that strong?

Mark.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

76. I suppose it's different in America - too many special interests

The US should have a system like the NHS. I had no prob with the NHS. In fact the waiting times were similar for more urgent care as the US. There are the horror stories on both sides of the Atlantic.

[defendandprotect]

8. None . . . but liberals and progressives have to decide to go together . . .

and as much as many don't like to admit it, there has to be leadership --

that's, btw, why they keep killing leaders . . . and rising leaders . . .

So -- where are the new leaders to lead us to the promised land?

And exactly where do we think it is --

and, who's going to hold the money.

Cause we need money -- it has to go with us.

And we all have to agree before hand on what it is to be spent on --

#1 OVERTURNING CAMPAIGN FINANCE BRIBERY

#2 IRV VOTING

#3 TARGETING DLC CANDIDATES

#4 MOVING PROGRESSIVES/LIBERALS INTO CONGRESS -- with signed pledges!

[Dragonfli]

12. I agree however there does not appear to be a solution - the DLC has stolen our party

For the corporations they work for and are in the process of selling portions of policy to the highest bidder. They no longer care to even hide the sale of our government. The polls and the votes were quite clear and yet they thumb their noses at us and vote against our wishes and best interests.

Rahms appointment confirms that the President we elected has no intention of interfering in these corporate buy-outs.

It matters very little that the centrists are not actually Democrats because there was a coup and the party of the people is now dead - infiltrated and taken over from within.

The few Democrats left in the party (those that do not support republican principles and corporate ideals) are now but a few hold outs that the DLC will work against to replace with more stealth republicans, that is how they have been doing it since the republican false flag operation began when they formed the DLC and began the infiltration.

We have little chance of taking it back from the oligarchs because (as will be seen even within this thread) our fellow Democrats will choose to keep supporting them and making excuses simply because the (D) stands next to their name and they think this is a football game.

When our reps vote against us the "loyal Dems" will claim it is due to "spinelessness" rather than face the calculation behind it and STILL vote for them in the next election.

Or else they will claim it is our fault for not writing enough (even tho we do) and again they will STILL vote for them.

Oft times "loyal Dems" will claim they go against us because we don't have enough of them, no matter how many there are in the House and Senate or how much they vote against us and will continue to vote for even more false flag "democrats"

Battered wife syndrome or hero worship in the case of the smoother talkers, either way they will vote against their best interests just like the republican working and middle class vote against their best interests in search of the (R).

We can not vote republican because they are the overt portion of our one party Republican Oligarchy.

We can only expect to pick up a few Independents or third party representatives that happen to follow democratic principles (Bernie Sanders comes to mind) because the right wing press maintain a united front against any non-corporate contenders ESPECIALLY Independent or third party.

Unless the "Loyal Dems" wake the fuck up and kick the DLC to the curb we are fucked, but as I expect responses to your thread will prove, they prefer the battered wife fantasy that "it is all our own fault" or "they don't mean it" or as in the case the Charming Snake oil salesman followers of personality, they will prove they like the taste of the poison that is being sold them (and destroying the rule of law and the middle class.)

Unless the responses in this thread overwhelmingly admit the need to clean house then the house will remain dirty, corrupt and corporate owned.

I am sorry that I see no solution, perhaps another will think of something we can do.

[global1]

21. Please List Those Dems That Vote Against Our Better Interests......

lets understand who those Dems are - then when they come up for election - either don't support them financially or mount a campaign in their districts/states with an alternative candidate - that we believe will be better suited.

The only language they know is re-election. They are there for their own self-interest.

So lets send them the message that if they don't tow the line for us - they will be on the unemployment line.

The July 4th recess is coming up in Congress. Many will be back in their districts holding Town Hall meetings. These Town Hall's are an opportunity to tell our Congresscritters how we feel and what we want. Go to your Congresscritters website and find out when and where they will be in your district and voice your opinion there.

My Congressman - Dan Lipinski - is holding a Town Hall Meeting on June 30th between 7 and 8:30PM in Summit, IL - he is calling it a Health Care Forum. I will be there to challenge him.

Remember all politics are local. Utilize their forums to your best advantage. This is where we can start to really change things.

Remind them what happened in Nov 2008 - when we changed the course of our government to what we thought was going to do us good.

Remind them again what prompted that vote and that the American public will not tolerate public representation that isn't really representative of our needs versus corporate needs.

Remind them that we hold the power to change and unless they change for us - we will change them.

It's about time they understand that we will not tolerate the old politics of promise them everything then abandon them to line up with the corporations.

We need to get them to understand that we will 'forclose' on their D.C. office and put them on the unemployment line'. Cause the language of re-election is the only thing they really understand.

[susanr516]

36. Good points, Dragonfli

The only solution I can see at this point is public financing of elections, but how do you get Congress to derail its own gravy train?

[cali]

27. I certanly won't support healthcare legislation that doesn't include a viable

public option. The simplistic "it's all the DLC" is rather, well, simple minded. As for Rahm Emanuel, it's my understanding that he backs a public option. In any case, I hardly view him as public enemy #1. He works for the President and one of main aspects of his job is to gather support for the President's policies.

[Crunchy Frog]

29. Yes. n/t

[WCGreen]

30. The best thing to do is start a commune and fuck the outside world..

It worked for Billy Jack...

[Joanne98]

31. I'd rather fight within the party. Run real progressives against the traitors..

Third parties don't work in the US. Been there done that. Unless we had run off elections. Until then we're stuck with a Wall Street dictatorship.

But I do think we need a plan B. And that's waging war on the conservative base. People against people. A ground war. We can start by "operation get them fired from their jobs."

[rhett o rick]

47. So we been "working within the party" for years. How's that working for us?

The writing was splashed on our windshields when Pres Obama replaced Dean with Emanuel. Emanuel openly doesn't give a crap about the grass roots. He is in bed with the corporations that are standing on our throats.

Working outside the party structure can mean working with moveon and/or PDA to raise money "outside the party structure" to defeat DINO's.

[Joey Liberal]

32. The sad truth is -

Our Democratic Party doesn't have the balls to stand up to the republicans.

[rhett o rick]

48. Much of the current Party (Baucus, Specter, Laundrau, Nelson) do not even want

to stand up against the republiCons.

[Peacetrain]

34. I am NOT voting republican.. so not sure where to go outside our party??

[rhett o rick]

44. We can raise money to defeat DINO's, via moveon or PDA. Not via the Party. nm

[quiller4]

37. Absolutely NOT. Health care is not a litmus test for me. n/t

[rhett o rick]

40. Well don't leave us in suspenders. What is the issue that will convince you? nm

[HughMoran]

38. We will get a public option

What other option is there?

How can it be reform without an option for those who can't afford rip-off health insurance?

[rhett o rick]

41. Status friggin quo is an option. nm

[Vidar]

49. Rahm Emanuel is a corporate monster.

[rateyes]

50. I'll either go outside the party or not vote in 2010 and 2012.

[rhett o rick]

54. Join Progressive Democrats of America if you haven't alread. nm

[Kansas Wyatt]

55. Democratic politicians do not realize just how badly they are screwing up.

They think they have the next two elections in the bag already, and they can cash in on their personal careers.

But they still need those millions of Americans that gave them a chance in the last election to vote for them again and to actually SHOW UP to vote. If they continue to screw the American People, they will find out exactly how their opponents, with 30% favorable ratings, can kick their asses in the next election.

Then the Democratic leaders , with superior intelligence, can sit around and ponder why people don't vote for their alleged best interests.

[rhett o rick]

56. You sound like you honestly believe we have some power at the grass roots level.

Well we did what we could in 2006 and 2008 and we ended up here. What more can we do. And please don't say replace incumbents. They are sacred unless you vote republiCon. Even the Pres said he will support Sen Specter (the incumbent). Because the system is rigged against challengers you can't hardly get anyone to challenge an incumbent.

[Kansas Wyatt]

62. Because there is NO voice to challenge the status quo.

It would be so easy for unions and other progressive groups interested in improving conditions for all Americans to jointly start up a website that shows people how their Representative represented them and what it means to them. A website that would become widely known and respected by average working Americans. It could also list exactly who their Representative is indebted to and how that affected their voting record.

In other words, they need to be called out and shamed for how they DON'T represent their constituents. Almost everyone has access to the internet now, and it's the quickest and easiest way to lay-out all the facts. However, this site would need to be an information site that doesn't push anyone's agenda, but only informs people exactly how their government Representatives are really representing or not representing average working Americans. Any commercialization or attempts to push an agenda will immediately and permanently discredit it.

Until the people have the truth about those they vote for, then real change won't happen. With a site like that, then any challenger in a primary could just say, go to such and such website to see how my opponent didn't represent you, if the incumbent hadn't already been called out and shamed enough.

[Cleita]

51. We can't go outside the Party and win, however, we can form a coalition or

caucus within the Party like the Blue Dog Dems and the DLC (pretty much the same people IMHO). You know get a leader, a platform, a website and most of all a plan as to which Democrats we are going to support. For those we can't support anymore, we need to identify candidates to run against them in the primaries and then work hard to get them the funding they need to do so and plan a winning campaign for them.

[rhett o rick]

53. We have that in the PDA. I still think we need to try to take control of local parties.

That's how we will build the progressive candidates of the future.

I like your suggestion but don't know how to do that within the existing Party structure.

[Cleita]

59. I think other progressive voices, who are more politically astute and

informed than me, have suggested the same thing, starting locally, and grooming our future leadership. However, our Congress critters can form caucuses within the Party if they have the will to do so and if they do, we at the local level can give them our support.

[tan guera]

66. Why do people keep saying that you can't go outside the party ?

Çontemplate what might happen if most dems left the party and became Indies.

That would be POWER. I'm already an Indie and have been for years. What's all this party loyalty about? Look where it's gotten the country.

[UTUSN]

60. My 3 or so generations' experience as a Democrat means

living through the wilderness of lost or stolen elections, compromises that didn't deliver the promises, and VERY HIGH POINTS of nobility and steps forward in civil rights and social justice.


I will stay right where I am. And I am THRILLED to have a clearly won election and a Democratic president. So, exCUSE me!1


Every defection means the wilderness.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Where you and I need to go is THE STREETS, en masse

forget elections...

The only way they will listen is when they have millions in the streets... for days on end...

By the way, I don't expect this to happen in the US anytime soon. That kind of activism has been destroyed in this country... and I have no hope that it will ever come back. That's the sad truth.

[rhett o rick]

73. Ok so what is your second choice? nm

[roody]

72. I am a Green, and I just decided that Dems have to

have some good challengers in the primary. My rep, Mike Thompson, is a major sell-out.

[tavalon]

74. We haven't come up with an outside the box solution yet

If we can force campaign finance reform, we might have a shot. Otherwise,we have the far right party and the crazies. I don't want either. I want a liberal party but we can't seem to get one working.

[rhett o rick]

75. Because so far we havent come up with a strategy to defeat CorpAmerica influence. nm