there's only one realistic way to pay for everything that's needed in this country...

[dysfunctional press]

infrastructure, healthcare, social security, new energy systems, etc.

a wealth tax. the distribution of wealth in this country has become increasingly skewed since the reagan debacle, and that HAS to be corrected. the money can only come from where the money IS.

those who have benefited the most from this country deserve to shoulder most of the cost. the military has MOSTLY been about protecting the assets and interests of the uber-wealthy and the corporati, as opposed to the freedom of americans that the propagandists would have us believe.

our troops stationed around the globe need to be brought back home, and the military budget DRASTICALLY re-directed to domestic needs. swords into plowshares.

but the borrowing HAS to stop. especially when it gets to the point that nobody will lend to us anymore.

we can either do the right things, or we can perish as a nation.

it's going to be an interesting ride, the next decade or so.

[havocmom]

1. a-yup

[malaise]

2. You're watching The History Channel?

It's frightening

[dysfunctional press]

12. shit, meet fan...

it's going to be a bumpy ride...literally.

[malaise]

27. You'd think everyone would be twittering about that

That was seriously frightening.

[scarletwoman]

How about stopping all our military operations around the world?

We are spending more to bomb the shit out of Afghanistan than it would cost to institute nationalized health care.

sw

[timeforpeace]

6. Well said.

[Wwagsthedog]

9. Second the motion.

But include ending the "drug war" too please.

[spag68]

10. military

Don't forget about the hundreds of thousands of service personal who are in Japan, Korea, Germany. and all the other places where we have useless bases. Bring them all home and see how all these countries like defending themselves.

[Obamanaut]

52. Bring all those folks home. Put them in bases around the US, or

reopen the bases that were closed. Shut down bases on foreign soil. Use the money presently spent on maintaining bases on foreign soil on the reopening or expanding US bases. All that money is a boon to the various local economies.

Saves money on foreign bases. Saves money on transporting personnel, families, supplies to foreign bases.

Seems like a win to me.

[dysfunctional press]

11. that's a big part of it, as i had stated in the post.

not only does the private/corporate wealth have to be taxed effectively- the proceeds have to be spent effectively, and that involves bringing home our 'world police force' of a military, and then shrinking it and it's current/peacetime mission.

[malaise]

28. It's called

MADNESS

[SammyWinstonJack]

31. I honestly don't know how Obama and congress justify the obscene amount alloted to these 'wars'

while everything crumbles at home? Just mind boggling.

[lefthandedlefty]

39. That would pay to fix a lot of things

[tomp]

40. there's a thought. nt

[PVnRT]

66. +1 (n/t)

[Mojambo]

3. A wealth tax or some serious guillotine action.

I'll let the rich bastards choose which they'd prefer.

[jgraz]

16. Start with a 100% inheritance tax for estates above $5 million

All these Republicans value work for the poor, but not for the idle children of their wealthy patrons. Call it the "Paris Hilton Tax" just to keep weak-kneed Dems in line.

[SmileyRose]

17. 5 million is way too low

I appreciate the sentiment but I personally know family business owners who are living far from lavish lives who's estate will easily top 5 million. By the time one adds in the value of the business real estate, personal real estate, life insurance, business inventory and other holding, Accounts receivable, etc etc blah blah - it's VERY easy to blow through 5 million tied up in a business not in Yachts, candy and half nekkid wimmen.

A "Paris Hilton Tax" needs to be structured in a way that does not punish kids inheriting a business they plan to run and grow, built by the sweat and 20 hr workdays of their parents.

[jgraz]

20. No matter what number you choose, someone will say it's too low

No matter what's being inherited, I don't think it's a good thing to hand large amounts of wealth to people who didn't earn it. If parents want to keep a business in the family, they can hire their kids and have them invest their own sweat and 20 hr workdays.

Now, I think a one-sentence description of any tax is going to be far too simplistic. I'm sure we could find sensible exemptions for all kinds of things. But, in general, we need to stop the kind of inherited aristocracy that our founders despised in Europe.

[Cresent City Kid]

41. This can be done

Tax cash payments much heavier than farms or businesses or instead of them. Defuse the republican argument that farms and small businesses are the main victims of the inheritance tax.

More simply, just call cash inheritances what they are, income, and tax them as such. If we are to have political rights as single-celled embryos, than we can pay income tax at the age of 21 even if the source is our family.

[KittyWampus]

45. I personally want to thank you for saying $5million. I've gotten my ass handed to me for explaining

that our small family business is worth that much ON PAPER because the real estate under our feet has skyrocketed.

We are on the east coast. This is something that one can see on east and west coast. But now, even in Iowa etc this is happening as ethanol has caused land values to start growing and as people in midwest start wanting weekend homes in farm country. Plus, the cost of farming equipment.

[leftynyc]

50. Waaaaay to low

Try 10-15 million and you may get some takers. And do let me know what the incentive to make more than that amount would be with a 100% tax. Ridiculous.

[jgraz]

58. Hmmm, what would be the incentive to make more than 10-15 millions dollars?

Well, one incentive would be that you would actually have the money while you were alive.

And you could donate it wherever you pleased. Get some buildings named after yourself. You just couldn't hand it off to your kids.


I really don't understand this thing where people need "incentive" to make money. None of the rich people I know needed an "incentive" to get rich. And what value is there to society to give people "incentives" to accumulate large amounts of money? Our economy is currently in trouble because of the rich hoarding wealth.

[leftynyc]

74. And the weathy people I know

and love work so hard so they do have to give to their children. They are also big in charitable contributions. Telling people what to do with their money smacks of big brother.

[lxlxlxl]

4. nah...they have to agree to sell those things for less..

they have to take a hit in their guaranteed profits. that's it. you dont actually have to take the money out of their checking accounts.

[dysfunctional press]

13. capital gains need to be taxed the same as wages. at the very least.

how can people expect 10% personal gains every year, in an economy that grows 3-4% in good years...? sooner or later, something has to give- you can only slash product quality and workers wages by so much.

[Cresent City Kid]

46. Right on

Capital gains, dividends, and cash inheritances are income. They should pay the 39% income tax on them and shut up.

By the way, when you said "Money has to come from where it IS" (hope I didn't misquote), it struck me as the most eloquent sentence on this subject I've heard.

[armyowalgreens]

5. Democratic Socialism is the only way...

:thumbsup:

[laststeamtrain]

7. Soak the rich. D'uh. n/t.

[Mind_your_head]

8. The riche win all/everytime.....the "nice ones" throw us a bone or a park/library/forest pavillion..

....in their name. :eyes:

[Donnachaidh]

81. and of course that *bone* is fully tax deductible

So they are NOT helping *us* - they are helping THEMSELVES. I'm so sick of hearing how *much* the wealthy do for the poor. I'd like to see the TAX RETURNS filed after these "philanthropists" have their photo ops about their *charity*.... :puke:

[timeforpeace]

14. Taxing the wealth of Bill gates, Paul Allen, Steve Jobs and Warren Buffet alone might do the trick.

[Amonester]

18. Yep. And since Buffet already said he wouldn't mind at all...

and that he thinks something's wrong when his secretary pays more taxes than he does...

Way to go.

[ima_sinnic]

25. don't forget the First Family of pigs: the Waltons

taxing them alone would feed the world as well as repair/renovate U.S. infrastructure forever.

[Stellabella]

15. You bet. And NOW.

There's plenty of money out there. It's all in a big bulging mass at the top.

[eridani]

19. And backing off on imperial bullying

BTW, as far as health care goes, we are ALREADY PAYING enough to take care of everybody and then some.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yupster]

22. That's what the Romans did when they needed cash

Usually they allowed suicide which saved the family.

[eShirl]

23. I seem to remember the Senate being turned into a brothel

silly me, they've already done that

[Sirveri]

24. cut the military budget. It already devours over 50%.

Drop it by 10% and you've just saved the country 5% of its annual spending.

What was really funny is how the economy took off right after Clinton closed down all those military bases.

[dysfunctional press]

29. swords into plowshares.

bring home the troops/equipment stationed around the globe, and spend the money on domestic projects.

didn't anyone in government study the rise and especially the FALL of the roman empire...?

[NYC Democrat]

30. im all for cutting the military budget but I reject your isolationist bullshit.

[dysfunctional press]

32. isolationist?

what other country has as much military presence around the world as we do? it's completely unnecessary, and VERY expensive. we were never intended to be an imperial power.

[Kaleva]

34. Defense accounts for 21% of Federal spending

Social Security is about 21%
Medicare and Medicaid is 23%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

42. Uh uh.

DoD $650B
Military portion of other budgets $150B
WoT(Iraq-Af) $100B+

Plus 80% of interest on debt is from the military.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

48. ...which makes it appx. 54% of the budget...

[Kaleva]

61. It's 21%

"In 2008, some 21 percent of the budget, or $625 billion, went to pay for defense and security-related international activities."

"Another 21 percent of the budget, or $617 billion, went to Social Security, which provided retirement benefits averaging $1,041 per month to 35 million retired workers (and dependents of retirees) in September 2008."

"Three health insurance programs — Medicare, Medicaid, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) — together accounted for 20 percent of the budget in 2008, or $599 billion."

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

83. Homeland Security? ($150B)

Got that budgeted?

Interest on the debt incurred by previous military budgets?

Got that budgeted?

$100B on the ongoing wars?

Considered that?

:think:

[Kaleva]

62. Defense took up 49% of budget in 1962

"According to "Outlays by Function and Subfunction 1962–2009," national defense spending in 1962 totaled $52.3 billion, approximately 49% of the $106.8 billion in total federal outlays that year. Spending for education and social services in 1962 equaled $1.2 billion (about 1% of outlays), and Social Security spending reached $14.4 billion (13.5% of outlays). At $6.9 billion, net interest on Treasury debt securities amounted to 6.5% of total federal outlays in 1962."

Read more: http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/1311/Taxes-Government-Spending-FEDERAL-BUDGET.html#ixzz0JH4YENSB&C

[dreamnightwind]

26. Recommended!

Distribution of wealth in this country is way out of control, and getting worse. And yes, it started either in or right before the Reagan era.

Fixing this would be a huge step towards fixing the country.

A wealth tax seems like a good way to go about it.

It would require a lot of prior education. Charts and graphs showing how much this has changed over the last 30 years, and comparing it to other countries in the world. People would come around to this view if the facts were drilled into their heads.

Your OP is a good start towards increasing awareness on this issue.

[AngryAmish]

33. It is unconstitutional

5th amendment and all that whatnot

And I don't think you want the state to be able to take things from their citizens without compensation. That leviathan is a bit too large.

[dysfunctional press]

35. since when are taxes unconstitutional?

the 'compensation' that people receive for their taxes are the public services those taxes pay for.

[AngryAmish]

37. shakes head, walks away

[leftynyc]

51. I'm with you

Fucking madness on this thread. The hate the rich mentality reeks of envy.

[dysfunctional press]

54. as opposed to the HATE the poor mentality that permeates the country?

:shrug:

our side is not the one that wages the REAL class warfare.

[leftynyc]

76. Whole other issue

That's why I'm a democrat. My best friend pays each quarter in taxes what my annual salary is and he's also a Democrat. I don't see any reason to shit all over him while he does that without complaint. Anyone who thinks a 100% tax rate for any amount of money is a good idea is a schmuck.

[Donnachaidh]

73. Envy? Nah -- just tired of having to pay for the things the *wealthy* use but don't pay their fair

share for.

Five Million is too low? Really? My heart bleeds purple panther piss for the whiny *don't take my toys away* wealthy who start shooting snot bubbles every time they are asked to pay taxes.

Do you walk past all those poor people on the streets without a second glance? Or has NY's champion of the rich Bloomberg managed to sweep them off the street - so you won't have to worry your *beautiful mind* over the poor? :sarcasm:

[leftynyc]

75. They don't pay their fair share?!!

Now I know you are acting from nothing but envy. And I have no reason to justify my life or what I do with my money to you or anyone else. Congrats - I haven't put anyone on ignore since the primaries - you're simply not worth the effort.

[Donnachaidh]

78. *your just jealous* is a JUVENILE response.

It's the response of someone who fears their cover is blown. :rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

55. which is exactly what people without answers usually do...

nice form. :hi:

(sorry about having to call you out on your TOTAL bullshit of a post)

[vincna]

60. Sorry to burst your bubble,...

but the Amish man is right. The government does not have the right to just seize the assets of the wealthy (or anyone else) and calling it a tax doesn't change anything. Have you actually read the 5th amendment?

[noiretextatique]

65. complete bull

government has the right to levy taxes, even on the wealthy. trickle down created the skewed wealth distribution we have now, mostly by cutting taxes on the wealthiest 1%.

[vincna]

68. So what are you going to tax?

The 16th Amendment authorized an income tax. Income and assets are not the same.

This thread has refers to a "Wealth Tax". To me, that means the government looking at your assets and saying, "I want everything over $X Million". If you believe the government has the right to do that, then give me a citation.

[noiretextatique]

69. captial gains, estate taxes

eliminate tax shelters, and raise the tax rate.

[vincna]

70. How about defining a wealth tax?

The taxes you mentioned are not what I believe was being suggested here.

[noiretextatique]

72. read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax
definition of wealth tax

http://bostonreview.net/BR21.1/wolff.html
argument for wealth tax

[vincna]

80. I don't believe such a tax would be constitutional in the USA

The links did not address that point. The Boston Review discussed the mechanics of implementing the tax, but did not point to any constitutional authority for the federal government to do so. I would say the 5th and 10th Amendments would be problematic.

Any constitutional lawyers out there?

[noiretextatique]

82. of course it would be

changing the way capital gain are taxed is one example.

[nashville_brook]

90. no one said anything about seizing assets. what's wrong with returning to progressive taxation?

[AngryAmish]

91. Did you read the OP?

"a wealth tax. the distribution of wealth in this country has become increasingly skewed since the reagan debacle, and that HAS to be corrected. the money can only come from where the money IS."

Wealth is assets of folks and corporations. Money in the bank and all that.

Progressive taxation is on income. Wealth has theoretically already been taxed once.

[vincna]

93. I don't understand it...

The point you are trying to make is obvious. Wealth and income are not the same thing. The 16th Amendment authorized an income tax, but there is no constitutional authority for a wealth tax.

The level of ignorance (and envy) in this thread is amazing

[Kaleva]

36. Raise taxes-revert to the tax rates of WWII and the 50's

[Veruca Salt]

53. +++++++1

I had to go check, and unless I don't know what I'm looking for (which is quite likely and if so someone please correct me), the rates in the 1950's were in the 90's:

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

Desperate times call for desperate measures and everyone should do their part; so just like they did in the 50's, the wealthy should gladly pay their fair share once again to righten the economy.

[proteus_lives]

38. Agree partially.

I agree we should pull back on the military spending and bases.

"a wealth tax. the distribution of wealth in this country has become increasingly skewed since the reagan debacle, and that HAS to be corrected. the money can only come from where the money IS."

I always roll my eyes when people talk about distribution of wealth. Because I've never heard a plan that wasn't a "revenge on people who have more money then I do." fantasy.

[Voltaire]

43. Thinking of taxing them as revenge

assumes that they all worked hard for their money. Which I doubt.

[proteus_lives]

84. So if a people inherits money they don't deserve it?

What's your definiation of worked hard?

[KansDem]

47. It isn't a "revenge on people who have more money then I do." fantasy

It's getting the wealthy to pay their fare share. Like the 52,000 accounts of American tax cheats in Switzerland's UBS bank. Why should I pay taxes when they don't?

The wealthy should be willing and delighted to pay such taxes for living la dolce vita...

[proteus_lives]

85. I agree with you there.

People shouldn't be allowed to hide their money or cheat on taxes.

la dolce vita, don't know what the means. But if they are doing things legally I could care less how anyone lives. That's the revenge attitude I was talking about.

[dysfunctional press]

56. "I've never heard a plan that wasn't a "revenge on people who have more money then I do."

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

and i've NEVER seen legislation from repukes that wasn't a revenge on people who have LESS than they do.

as long as there's going to be class warfare waged in this country, our side ought to get off it's ass and start fighting it.

[noiretextatique]

67. right on!!!!

where was all the "concern" about class warfare over the past 29 years?

[proteus_lives]

86. Sides?

That's confusing to me. How many sides are there? How many classes? Whose's on whose side? It's sounds a lot more complex then the "us vs. them" line of thought.

[treestar]

44. Amen. It's so obvious. And the rich could get positive publicity from it.

One wonders how the rich can live with themselves - if they had any patriotism at all, they would want to make sure none of their fellow citizens suffered unduly.

Here in Delaware they are cutting state worker's salaries to balance the budget! And there are a disproportionate number of rich people here and it is a small state! If I were one of the rich, I would demand to pay for the shortfall rather than see middle class citizens paying for it!

[Mari333]

49. ending the defense dept budget would also help

2 occupations, bases all over the world..geez louise cut the damned thing by 2/3...stop being an empire.

[dysfunctional press]

57. try reading the post, and not just the subject line next time.

that was covered.

[Mari333]

59. omg you are right

as usual

[taught_me_patience]

63. This is not going to do it

A wealth tax would provide a short term boost. However it is not sustainable over the long run. Secondly, an extreme wealth tax would be unconstitutional. Federal government cannot simply seize wealth without compensation. Everybody needs to chip in and pay more taxes if we want more services.

[RT Atlanta]

64. Education

To me, the root of some many issues now is the lack of "quality" education to our children. A better educated citizenry, and not just worker bees who are taught to pass a test so they won't be "left behind," will go a long way toward solving our collective problems.

If young children are taught the 3 Rs (a little Southern humor for you), along with critical thinking and analytical skills, I think so much of the shit that is served up as being "in our own interests" would be challenged.

I had a co-worker the other day who responded to a company wide email about a lawsuit with "another good reason to get rid of the death tax" (his words) as a good example of not questioning what is going on in our country or understanding the reasons for the estate taxes (to prevent generational shifts in wealth for the public good).

Rambling post over...

[Donnachaidh]

71. and tax the crap out of walmart and other companies that use the infrastructures

Want to sell your cheap plastic wares in this country? PAY for it -- pay to repair the infrastructure that has allowed you to truck your shit into this country.

[Kaleva]

77. The cost will be passed onto the consumers

In the end, the little guy (and woman) always pays.

[Donnachaidh]

79. Walmart needs to be driven out of business

Period.

[ZombieHorde]

87. Ending the War on Drugs, releasing all victimless drug criminals from prison, and taxing drugs

would bring in great amounts of revenue.

[Yo_Mama]

88. You couldn't be more wrong

Health care alone is going to cost us a trillion or so in 10 years.

If you confiscated ALL THE WEALTH OF ALL THE HOUSEHOLDS who have more than 5 million in assets, you couldn't even pay the interest on the planned borrowing until 2019 with the proceeds. Seriously. And then that money would be gone for good.

This is why a numbers person like me is needed on this board.

The only way to pay for what we need is to tax most people more, and when I say tax most people more, I am including households with median incomes around 50K. And that's why we need to be very careful about what programs we fund and about government spending.

We need to pay the taxes, but we need to make those taxes count.

The only way to do this is to remove a lot of tax exemptions on things like muni bonds, IRAs, 401Ks, etc. You could put in an exemption for the first 5K of annual income or so. After that, slap on a tax. We have got to broaden the tax basis. We've also got to cut a lot of government spending.

I'll prove it to you. Go to Forbes list of the wealthiest people and sort for the US:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/10/billionaires08_The-Worlds-Billionaires_CountryOfPrmRes_27.html
That list is from 2008 and of course they are worth less now. Then just start going through the list and adding up their net worths.

Then look up Obama's figures. Go to page 5 in this pdf (table S-3) and look at the projected interest on the deficits.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/assets/fy2010_new_era/Summary_Tables2.pdf
Here it is starting in 2013 and continuing through 2018
447 billion, 495 billion, 539 billion, 579 billion, 614 billion, 651 billion.

All the billionaires and all the millionaires living in the US don't have the total wealth to cover just the interest on the federal deficit. The problem is that so many people in this country believe that somehow they can get a whole lot more for free, and that isn't possible. We are all going to face considerable cutbacks, and it is to the country's interest to ensure that it is done as fairly as possible so as to preserve growth capacity.

The reason why I want to vote Democrat is that I have believed that there is a much better chance of doing this well through the Democratic party. But in order to do it, we have to get rid of these types of fantasies.

[vincna]

89. A voice of reason; ...

...how refreshing. I couldn't agree with you more. There are way too many people in the country who don't pay income taxes and don't pay attention to how money is being pissed away. Just about everyone should have some stake in it, even if it's only a little.

[taught_me_patience]

92. great post

thanks for posting this and welcome to DU!

[femrap]

94. Yep....I read that the top

20% consumes 75% of the income. Sock it to 'em. Either tax them nicely or let the poor eat them for breakfast.