I have little in the way of sympathy for MJ's death

[hyphenate]

and yes, that is my opinion, and nothing more. Just like everyone else, no one should take mhat I say as gospel, though I would like to think someone was willing to take what I say and contemplate it without pre-judging it.

Earlier this week, here in Worcester, a 7 year old child was beaten to death by his father. I could only think of all the horrible things that child had been subjected to, and I wish the strongest and most painful death for that man who was SO big that he couldn't pick on someone his own sizs.

And now, a man who had money to burn, who molested children and paid off their families to keep himself out of jail has died. Do I feel anyrhing charitable for him? Absolutely, positively, no fucking way.

I don't believe in false piety, nor do I believe I should somehow respect him now, just because he doesn't happen to be breathing anymore. He is still the man he was when he paid off one of his victims with 11 million dollars. He is still the man who owned a home where there were secret rooms in the house, all the more to molest children. Does anyone except me forget that he fled the USA because the cops were onto him?

Death is just another facet of who we are on planet earth--if we have been decent people, we will live on in the memories of others. If we haven't been decent, the memory of our wasted lives will finally put to end all the horror that we perpetrated here. Whether there is an afterlife or not, it's the memory that is immortal, and those who are still around after one's death are the ones who keep the deceased alive.

But Michael Jackson was a seriously disturbed man who had a thing for young boys, and in the eyes of the law of the USA, and in the minds of most people in the world, he was a pedophile who got away with his crimes. No, no sympathy from me for a man who used money to keep people quiet about his deranged choices, and who ultimately was able to keep his habit alive with the money he had.

Rest in disturbance, MJ--you deserve it.

[qanda]

1. It's times like these that I thank God for the hide thread feature

Dancing on someone's grave is not cool.

[Common Sense Party]

8. No, no. On DU grave-dancing is encouraged

But only when the deceased is a Republican.

[HughMoran]

50. Hear Hear

Sheesh :eyes:

[shadowknows69]

104. Can we moonwalk on his grave?

[LiberalEsto]

2. I agree

I draw the line when it comes to the sexual abuse of children.


And I pity his own three children. What will happen to them now, I wonder?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. I've never seen it proven that he molested any children

And if it had been, he wouldn't have got to keep his own.

[roguevalley]

103. he was made of money. the rich are different from us. truly.

[peacebird]

Never convicted. Therefore innocent by the laws of the land. RIP Michael.

[Common Sense Party]

9. Money talks.

OJ and MJ walk.

[Cali_Democrat]

13. Why bring up OJ when you're talking about MJ?

Because they're both black? Why not bring up other cases :shrug:

[Uzybone]

14. curious isn't it

almost every shit head pissing on MJs grave has also brought up OJ as an example of miscarriage of justice.

Oh poor justice, it was intact until those 2 blacks got off.

[Common Sense Party]

16. Because they're both rich and were obviously guilty.

And they both got off.

Race has nothing to do with it, and you know it.

[Cali_Democrat]

23. And they're also both black

You're telling me that white people never get off when they're rich and "obviously guilty"?

I just find it interesting that you went straight for the OJ comparison.

You could have easily compared Michael Jackson's case to a white person getting off, but you went straight for the OJ card.

Not to mention that murder is considered a more serious crime by our justice system, but you wanted to compare the two situations anyway.

Interesting...

[Common Sense Party]

25. Except that OJ, being "the trial of the century," was a much more

memorable example. Your suspicions are unfounded, but still amusing.

[Cali_Democrat]

30. It's you're fault for getting swept up by the media's "trial of the century" bullshit.

To me it was just another court case.

[Common Sense Party]

34. I was just at a used bookstore today and glanced at the spine

of a bok titled "Trial of the Cetury." It was about the OJ case. I thought it was a funny bit of hyperbole. Obviously that's why it was the first other case I thought of.

[RaleighNCDUer]

62. Curiously, I have (somewhere) a book titled 'Trial of the Century'

that concerns a doctor accused of murdering his wife. In 1921. Never heard of him.

Hype is hype.

[tabasco]

65. Just like people who say MJ was a great artist.

His crap music will be forgotten very quickly.

[RaleighNCDUer]

69. Highly unlikely. He's out there, he's on the net. He had hundreds of millions

of fans.

Now OJ - in 50 years nobody will remember him except a few football stat fanatics and a few classic movie fanatics.

[liberalhistorian]

106. Amen. There were even some idiots here comparing his

bilge with Mozart and Picasso, saying he'd have an even greater legacy. Super-mega-major-hurl-alert pukeballs. I'm sick to death of hearing about him already and it hasn't even been a day. Can't get away from it, either, it's all over the tv and innertubes.

[Dogtown]

113. But *your* music, tabasco

will live forever?

[Lilyeye]

127. Keep dreaming. Like him or not, his music won't be forgotten.

[LanternWaste]

107. I would think Ken Lay's trial

I would think Ken Lay's trial would be more germain, more dramatic, more recent, more topical, and more relevant.

But no one ever mentions his name anymore, and I doubt it's because he had money and got off scott free.

[NoGOPZone]

26. Rich and obviously guilty. I feel that way about Robert Blake nt

[CreekDog]

120. not to the jury n/t

[MadBadger]

31. Because his case is one of the most famous cases...and Shame on you

Your like Sarah Palin, injecting race (where she would exploit her children) where no racism (exploitation) occurs.

[PSzymeczek]

68. Not because they're black, for me

but because they have an obscene amount of money to purchase their freedom.

[Common Sense Party]

95. Exactly.

I didn't think of their race. I thought of their guilt, and their fame and fortune that bought their freedom from justice.

[Lerkfish]

108. ok, Klaus von Bulow

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. Didn't help Phil Spectre or Claus von Bulow much. nt

[Common Sense Party]

27. How rich is Phil Specter?

He can't be THAT rich if he has hair that looks like that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. Somewhere are $100 million, IIRC.

And now I'm thinking about Lana Clarkson. Have to sit down and watch Deathstalker again I guess.

[RaleighNCDUer]

61. That's "somewhere around $100 million"

Half-heimers at work.

[Hepburn]

49. Alan Dershowitz got von Bulow a new trial on the appeal...

...and that ended with an acquittal.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

60. Phil Specter was pretty much as guilty as one could get.....

...and still almost got off.

When it comes to celebs, the California justice system is very suspect. And yes, that includes OJ, Michael, Specter, and Robert Blake.

[SammyWinstonJack]

89. Are you serious?

[provis99]

11. and OJ was found not guilt of killing his wife.

Do you believe he was innocent too?

[peacebird]

29. I posted "Never convicted. Therefore innocent by the laws of the land."

In the court and under the law of the land, he was not found guilty. My opinion is irrelevant.

[Lex]

5. my ignore thread count

is getting sky high at this point

[AngryOldDem]

7. As someone else said....

..."innocent until proven guilty" can be a rather subjective concept around here at times.

[blonndee]

17. So is mine.

[Hepburn]

55. Ditto. n/t

[Th1onein]

6. FIRST of all, Michael Jackson was never convicted of ANY crime.

And, the last I heard, even in this country, a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty.

SECOND, none of us is without sin, so who are you to throw stones?

THIRD, this man is not here to defend himself, so it's only decent that you keep your mouth shut with accusations that hold no water.

[pnwmom]

12. Did you forget that one of the boys he'd been accused of molesting

refused to testify in a criminal trial after Michael paid him millions in a settlement?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/13/jackson.trial/index.html

"Prosecution witnesses included the accuser's mother, who was on the stand for three days, and a former security guard who testified that he saw Jackson engaged in oral sex with another teenage boy.

That boy received an out-of-court settlement in his family's molestation case against the pop star for an undisclosed amount. Jackson was not charged in that case and denied any wrongdoing."

[konnichi wa]

20. Money talks. All persons are whores, they just have different price lists.

...

[Th1onein]

28. That's what you're told by the media.

You know, there were rumors, as well, that the family brought the case, to begin with, in order to get money from Jackson?

Ah well, innocent until proven guilty means nothing to some people...

[RainDog]

32. he made my skin crawl

whether he abused kids or not - I thought he was repulsive.

After all his plastic surgery, I couldn't stand to see his picture. He so hated that he was black that he disfigured himself. that's a great role model.

his music was bubblegum crap. as a kid, when someone gave me a Michael Jackson album as a present, I returned it for a Led Zeppelin one because I found his music irritating long before he became such a hideous spectacle.

so, is it okay if some people are not part of the love fest for reasons other than the alleged child abuse and pay offs to keep people quiet, in addition to the surrogate children and the sick "neverland" ranch (and, please, if you know anything about pedophiles, that ranch was a screaming calling card.)

[Th1onein]

131. Have some common decency though......

He wasn't convicted. You can't say that you believe in justice and make him an exception. His body of work is enough for you to have some fucking respect when you speak of him. And common decency dictates this for the dead, if not out of respect for them, then out of respect for those who loved him, including his family members.

[pnwmom]

38. The jury came to a different conclusion than many of us, having listened to the

same evidence, would have come to.

So he wasn't found guilty -- legally.

[pnwmom]

91. I watched the trial and heard the evidence. n/t

[RainDog]

93. yeah, just another lonely guy

who has a history of having sleep overs with children...mostly young boys, but sometimes their sisters, tho they were not the focus of Jackson's interest

who had a picture book of naked boys that was confiscated during the investigation

who was in a documentary holding hands with a 12 y/o boy while talking about the goodness of a grown man who is not related to boys sleeping with them.

who had heterosexual porn at his house with the fingerprints of the children who were accused on them (because, yeah, they brought that with them, I guess.)

who did not deny that these boys drank alcohol at his house but claimed it was because the boys were "out of control."

who, in testimony that was supposedly sealed b/c of settlement, was accused of fondling more than one child,

BUT

in his defense-

"In a taped June 2003 telephone interview, Katz, 55, gave a Santa Barbara sheriff's investigator his "off the record" opinion of the 46-year-old entertainer. Jackson, Katz told Det. Paul Zelis, "is a guy that's like a 10-year-old child. And, you know, he's doing what a 10-year-old would do with his little buddies. You know, they're gonna jack off, watch movies, drink wine, you know. And, you know, he doesn't even really qualify as a pedophile. He's really just this regressed 10-year-old."

And then there's this from the claims that never went to trial:

"According to the Linden affidavit, Chandler told police that Jackson justified the illicit acts by saying, "it was okay and natural because other friends had done this" with him. The singer, then in his mid-30s, also allegedly told the boy that, "masturbation is a wonderful thing." The celebrity also told Chandler that if he ever spoke about the incidents, he would be "placed in Juvenile Hall," and they both would get in trouble.

The document also describes a confrontation between Jackson and Chandler's father Evan, who suspected that the performer may have been assaulting his son during sleepovers. The elder Chandler tracked Jackson down to his "hideaway apartment" in Los Angeles.

The boy's father asked Jackson, "Are you fucking my kid?"

The entertainer "became very upset" and told Chandler that he did not use that word. Linden notes that the singer did not answer the question or deny the allegation.

With Los Angeles Police Department detectives weighing his claims, Chandler gave them a roadmap to Jackson's below-the-waist geography, which, he said, includes distinctive "splotches" on his buttocks and one on his penis, "which is a light color similar to the color of his face." The boy's information was so precise, he even pinpointed where the splotch fell while Jackson's penis was erect, the length of the performer's pubic hair, and that he was circumcised.
It wasn't long after law enforcement's photo session that Jackson agreed to settle Chandler's civil claim for north of $20 million."

Then there are the documents obtained that show Jackson videotaping the family... before any accusations were filed.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/michaeljackson/0215051jacksonsearch1.html

The Grand Jury Transcripts-

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/michaeljackson/021505mjgrandjury.html

[pnwmom]

98. Ugh. I hope his own children have a better chance for a life now. n/t

[konnichi wa]

18. Therefore Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, bla bla bla...are all innocent.

Nice one.

[roguevalley]

105. ...

I fear for his kids. Michael was 400M in debt. :(

[armyowalgreens]

130. I heard his estate is worth an estimated 1 billion dollars...

I don't think the kids have anything to worry about.

[MrModerate]

10. Jerk. Bye-eee.

[Believing Is Art]

15. Y'know

I never really idolized Michael Jackson. I liked a few songs but pop was never my thing. And, to be honest, I wanted to believe he was guilty of the alleged crimes. Need for scandal, maybe. I was biased against him.

But the more I read about the cases the less convinced I became. The families seemed hungry for money and attention. The father of one of the boys was heard saying he didn't care how the publicity affected his son which struck me as odd. I could understand being vindictive because someone hurt your child, but to be vindictive and not care how that affects your kid . . . weird. In at least one of the cases, "truth serum" was used and I put no stock in that.

There's no denying the latter part of his life was bizarre. I don't think he acted appropriately with children. While I now lean on the side of those who believe he was innocent, it still appeared that he would rather be a kid himself and be their friend rather than a father or role model. Not molestation, but still inappropriate. This behavior was more than likely due to childhood stardom and being abused by his father, but it doesn't make it alright.

Still, I don't think this is like OJ.

[RainDog]

42. yeah, most men I know have kids sleep over at their houses with them.

n/t

[Believing Is Art]

43. I didn't say it wasn't weird

Well, technically I said it was bizarre. It's certainly not right but it doesn't mean he molested them.

[RainDog]

44. so, you would've been okay with letting your kid sleep over at his house?

and, you do know that child molesters create enticements for children, right? the poor ones have to settle for candy but the really rich ones could afford an entire amusement park, even, to lure innocent victims.

I would NEVER have let my kids within 50 feet of him and every time I saw him on teevee with his kids it made me feel sick.

but, yeah, maybe he's entirely innocent and has been maligned by the press.

I do wonder why he went to live in the child molestation capital of the world for a while, tho. probably just because of money since Dick Cheney's Halliburton relocated there too.

[Believing Is Art]

74. If I had a kid I wouldn't be comfortable with it, no

As I said, even without any molestation, it seemed like a very unhealthy environment. A grown man should not be acting like a child in such a literal way. No one can just up and decide "oh well I missed my childhood so I'm going to use my wealth to recreate one and buy myself child friends." Even without molestation, if I had kids they would not be allowed near that.

One set of parents had a history of going to celebrities to get money. They also had a troubled marriage and divorce and used Jackson as a ploy in those proceedings. A few years before the alleged molestation took place, they had Jackson pay for their son's cancer treatment. Between that, Neverland, and an overzealous prosecutor, Jackson was a soft target. None of it holds water, though.

The other kid, Chandler I think, didn't raise accusations until he was submitted to amytal sodium, the effects of which have been widely debunked. The father had a vendetta against Jackson and, when asked how the allegations of molestation would affect his son, had this to say: "That's irrelevant to me...It will be a massacre if I don't get what I want. It's going to be bigger than all us put together...This man is going to be humiliated beyond belief...He will not sell one more record". If this is about Jackson hurting his child, then why does he make it sound like the kid doesn't matter, only destroying Jackson? Well, they got a lot of money and put a permanent cloud over Jackson so at least the dad got what he wanted.

Maybe he molested children that we don't know about. But in the cases that have been public, there is more evidence of greedy, publicity-hungry, hate-filled parents than actual molestation. Doesn't make Jackson's relationship with children healthy, but doesn't make him a child molester either.

[niceypoo]

100. When friends of mine proclaim his innocence I ask them...

...would you let him babysit your son?

The answer is always the same:

"Hell no!"

[babythunder]

111. Would you let any single man

that you didn't know babysit your kids I hope that answer would also be HELL NO!

[Lisa0825]

64. I feel the same. nt

[IntravenousDemilo]

19. Well, thank you for sharing, I guess. n/m

[RagAss]

21. He was Michael Jackson...who are you?.....Off to the Ignore list.

[Xithras]

24. You are not alone.

Millions of victims of child molestation in our nation, myself included, are cringing at the outpouring of "love" for this guy right now.

And anyone who wants to add me to their ignore lists can feel free to do so. Memories of fellating a pervert aren't something that I can just "get over" or forget. An automatic dislike for adults who get off on that sort of thing isn't something that can just be set aside. If you disagree with that position, you're probably not someone I want to talk to anyway.

[RainDog]

33. EXACTLY

I'm sorry that you have this sad history.

It makes me want to puke to read the "so what" attitude toward this repulsive man.

[hyphenate]

35. My sympathies

One of my nieces was molested by her mother's boyfriend, and I can recall incidents from my own childhood which are disturbing as well.

Being molested is one of those things which can't be really understood until you've been there. No punishment on earth is horrible enough for a grown man who gets his rocks off by abusing someone weaker than himself, especially a child. And with MJ's death, it's just another monster who gets to die without the proper send-off.

It's quite apparent that there are many who prefer money over truth and justice. Even here at DU.

[Common Sense Party]

36. But what if that pervert can really dance well and sell records?

Doesn't that make a difference?

Of course it doesn't. A pervert is a pervert, and a rich pervert get away with it by buying off his innocent but emotionally scarred victims.

My sympathies to you.

NO ONE should have to go through anything like that.

[Medusa]

66. It's the cult of personality and celebrity in this country

you can be the world's most despicable person in private and yet you'll be hailed as a hero in public just because you're famous. And if you die? You're inducted into sainthood whether you're deserving or not.

[Codeine]

37. Bravo.

:applause:

For some pop culture and silly half-assed disco nonsense trumps child abuse of the worst sort.

[Dogtown]

114. Michael was abused, too

I'm sorry you were hurt, but don't project.

Michael lived in hell as a child, too. It's as likely he had pure empathy for those kids and their parents saw a way to blackmail a fortune by using their kids.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hyphenate]

45. Being someone who is well familiar with the

entertainment industry, I have sources and friends who, through the years, have known the truth and the fictions of Hollywood. MJ was more than guilty, but without the right kind of evidence, nothing can/could be done about it.

And as for calling me an asshole, well, it's not the worst I've ever been called. It's a good sign that I am questioning the status quo when people begin going into a feeding frenzy over a celeb thread.

And regardless, the point of the post was because I can't and won't feel bad for the death of someone who molested children. They have less and less advocates all the time, and it's people like MJ who get away with it that ultimately weaken the laws trying to enforce laws against it.

[madmusic]

126. So you have friends in the "entertainment industry" WOW!

That's proof positive, and you and your friends in the "entertainment industry" knew about children that "went missing" and you only bring it up now? That says more about you and your friends in the "entertainment industry" than it does about MJ.

If you don't like the presumption of innocence, why don't you and your friends in the "entertainment industry" call for a constitutional amendment to strike the presumption of innocence from the Constitution?

You're far more dangerous than MJ.

[cherish44]

41. I always got grief for this opinion but I always believed he was innocent

I don't think he was a perv he was just naive and eccentric and an easy target.

[Fire1]

47. ABSOLUTELY!!! Read my post above. He was set up. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. Same here

He used poor judgment but that was the worst thing he did.

[Fire1]

46. I think the PARENTS of those children are QUESTIONABLE

at best! They got what they were after all along. MONEY!!

[Hepburn]

48. Wow....just wow...

...:puke:

I never cared for Micheal Jackson...but I have enough heart and soul in me to know that he had been seriously abused as a child and that is most likely why he was so fucked up as an adult.

Your heart must be made of stone ~~ to basically wish someone eternal hell. What a terrible thing to think...let alone say.

Shame on you.

[RainDog]

51. those of us who think he molested children and got away with it

are glad he's not able to molest children anymore.

yeah, that's really heartless.

it makes me want to vomit to see people on this site lauding a child molester, because that's who and what he was to me.

[Hepburn]

53. Welcome to my ignore list.

I don't care for those who pontificate from on high. BTW: Please show me a judgment of conviction for child molestation, OK?

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

56. I was molested, by no less than 2 people as a kid. Read my posts from tongight.

MJ was weird, but I've explained succinctly and nimbly reasonable doubt.

Until actual conviction, I will have a heart.

And to those who molested me... save your vitriol for them and everyone else like them. Molesters' tactics usually aren't like those of MJ's purported M.O.

[RainDog]

59. others disagree with you

what about Jackson did not fit an m.o. of a molester?

he created an environment to lure children. he had children spend the night at his house (this is NOT an issue that is disputed - what is disputed is whether or not he abused them.)

I think the parents of those children, as well as Jackson, were disgusting. They allowed their children to be placed in danger and then they were willing to take money to shut up.

As someone who was "felt up" by an old man when I was a kid, Jackson set off all my alarms... you know those alarms, right? those reasons that you don't trust someone, that you know not to put yourself in a situation where that person can have power over you?

Another person on this same thread says that he/she has info that states Jackson was guilty of those charges - so, maybe that person is right.

In any case, I do hope that, now that Jackson is gone, the truth will come out - even if that truth is that he was not a child molester (which I find hard to type, even, because it seems to ludicrous).

[Dogtown]

116. Deja Q, I'm touched

Upthread I chastised another victim for not recognizing the abuse that Jackson received as a boy.

It is very likely that his own pain made him empathic with children.

The poster upthread projected his rage onto MJ, but your mind is clouded with emotion.

Respect!

:pals:

[Deja Q]

57. Thank you.

Watching enough interviews -- yes, he has issues. We both know that. He's a singer. That doesn't mean he's a gifted actor as well (think jessica or britney; they can sing and they can tell the world on stage what body part is falling out, but they can't act to save their lives. Two different fields). I believe him when he stated, on 60 minutes, his tales and his defenses of what people think.

[tekisui]

52. I agree.

[Deja Q]

54. I've posted reasonable doubt to the molestation charges. But I sure as hell will say this again:

Yes, he was disturbed.

I'm also curious about what caused him to break; maybe such knowledge can go to preventing future cases.

Or are you too evolved to analyze and deliberate; just spitting preconceived notions being more fun?

(Maybe he paid them off because he was guilty... maybe he was tired of being hounded... and only 11 mil? Why would the parents take the 11 million instead of going for the gold if it was that damn simple?)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

118. I've wondered too what causes some to break and not others

I had a trainwreck from infancy through...Grad school.

No need to go into it, but you ask an important question.

Not sure there is any answer, certainly not a single answer.

You're clearly one who fought through and created a wise and kind self!
(I always think that of your posts)

[Joe Fields]

58. I was going to write this very thread, but you beat me to it.

K&R!

I personally am sick of the Michael Jacksons of the world being glorified. How ANYONE can ignore that this man was a pedophile, while placing him up on a pedestal for his performance skills just baffles the hell out of me.

[hyphenate]

79. thanks

when my SIL told me about him dying, a few dozen scenarios went through my brain about some parent finally shooting him, or cops finding him in a room alone with a child and he resisted arrest, or whatever. The truth is, I have shivers when I think of him near so many children. One completely ludicrous thought I had a long time ago when he was going to have children was that he was having children so he didn't need to pay off any more parents for abusing their kids. Did I even have one second's worth of hesitancy to think that? No.

When Liz Taylor defended him, a few of us laughed: she allegedly didn't know that her friend Rock Hudson was gay and had AIDs, so how could she rationally believe that MJ was as pure as his publicity people would have us all believe?

It really doesn't matter now--MJ's deviant behavior will be a footnote in history, but for many of us, that footnote will include a sigh of relief that he's not around to go after any more kids.

[RainDog]

63. LOL. I love the people who have to come on this thread to "ignore" others

oh noes!!!!!

those who apologize for someone most on this list consider a pedophile are now using... "ignore."

kinda like what they're doing with evidence about Jackson's behavior with children.

[hyphenate]

82. Yep

Someone recently mae a comment to me about how there seems to be a lot more cases of child molesters, abortions, and other events than there was in the previous generation, and my comment in reply was that there wasn't any greater number of these things, but that there was a greater awareness of them, and that people weren't sweeping things under the rug anymore. And that's it: we've managed to bring some of these things to light, and in the light, there is less chance of them going back into hiding anymore.

And yet, I can believe that many criminals will still escape scrutiny, because they're among the greatest liars in the world, and they will continue to use their powers and money to get away with things. All we have to do is look at the last administration to know how true that is.

[Marr]

101. I've been trying to figure that one out, myself.

Why would I care if someone ignores me on a message board? It's clearly meant to be a barbed insult, but I'm sorry- I just don't feel it.

You know what I think it is? I'm noticing a real exploitative element to these Michael Jackson posts. It seems like some people are seizing onto the corpse and trying to waggle it about in new ways, begging for attention. If that's the way you think, I suppose the threat of being ignored might actually hurt.

[hyphenate]

109. I started the thread initially

because I saw all these threads eulogizing about MJ without talking about some of the reasons some of us just couldn't take about him. It's easier to praise someone after they have died, but too difficult to tell the truth. I chose to put my own opinion out there, because I felt many people were ignoring the issues.

Let's face it--I don't know about anyone else, but even one instance of child molestation trumps all the good he allegedly did through the years. If you don't think that's fair, try talking with the child who had been his victim. And BTW, the truth is we're not talking about all the kids who have been identified--the true victims are the ones who were made to disappear.

Sometimes, people just try to say good things about someone just because they're dead. In some cases, death of someone means something else entirely--freedom from the fear that has been their companion for too long. There is no joy, and no grave-dancing, just a numbness, trying to put a death into context.

Nightmares often stick with someone through the rest of their lives, even if an incident happened many years before. I can't help but be glad that one element of fear has gone from the lives of those who were victims.

[PSzymeczek]

70. Just a theory, of course.

He had already postponed the beginning of his "tour". He was convinced that he was going to make an ass of himself, so he OD'd to save himself the embarrassment.

[RaleighNCDUer]

75. That's not a theory - it's a mean-spirited calumny.

Really. Look it up in the dictionary.

[fujiyama]

71. I won't tell you how to feel for I have never experienced any sort of abuse

and cannot begin to imagine the sort of pain something like that would cause. Sexual abuse and pedophilia are no laughing matters, and MJ's actions were bizarre, sick, perverted, and likely criminal (assuming he did indeed do all he was accused of doing). I'm not going to justify his strange behavior with children.

However, MJ was a major influence on pop culture, for better or worse. At his peak was an immensely talented singer and dancer, and likely the most recognized and celebrated popular pop star in the world. So the coverage will continue and it will dominate headlines for days to come. Like many high profile deaths, perhaps some parts of his life will be whitewashed, though in his case it will be impossible to do so, since he dominated headlines through much of the eighties and nineties.

[Jennicut]

83. I totally agree, I loved his music as a child and as an adult but he had many flaws.

His flaws do not stop the interest in his death however.

[Geek_Girl]

72. No one knows with 100% certainty what MJ did other than him and his alleged victims

But I can say with 100% certainty that he was super star and one that broke barriers for artist and professionals in the African American community. He brought happiness into peoples lives with his music and enormous talent around the world.

He has influenced music and pop culture for generations. And I believe he was a true musical genius that will be remembered for decades if not longer.

Don't get me wrong child sex abuser are horrible human beings and perhaps MJ was a horrible human being in his personal life. But a human being can be horribly flawed and tragic and yet be an extraordinarily positive influence on the world.

[cliffordu]

123. Well....When you say:

"Don't get me wrong child sex abuser are horrible human beings and perhaps MJ was a horrible human being in his personal life. But a human being can be horribly flawed and tragic and yet be an extraordinarily positive influence on the world."

I gotta say that trivializes the rape of children to such a breathtaking level I cannot respond in a kind or sensitive manner.

So, I'll just say, what the fuck is the matter with you??

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

73. I respect your opinion - but I don't share it

I can divorce my feelings regarding a genius' behavior in his personal life from the greatness of his work. I greatly admire Roman Polanski's body of work even though I don't approve of his indiscretions with a minor. I admire the films of Errol Flynn even though he had sex with a minor. The same for Jerry Lee Lewis. I love some of John Wayne's films, even though I hated his political views in his personal life.

Whether Michael Jackson performed indecent acts with kids or whether he was just a kid himself who never grew up and liked to surround himself with children, I consider that to be part of his personal life and none of my business. After the McMartin case, we live in a time that is extremely sensitive to even the slightest suggestion of child molestation. Merely accusing someone in the public spotlight can convince millions of people that the allegations are true. Frankly, I don't know if Michael Jackson did any of the acts of which he was accused. I'm an attorney and I know how some in the profession become hungry sharks when they think there are deep pockets available, and Jackson had very deep pockets. Personally, if my child had been molested, no amount of money would have bought me off and I would have pushed the case to trail, just to put the man in prison. And I understand that the family of the child who settled out of court was well-to-do. I don't know one way or the other and frankly I don't care. I can admire the man for what he did in his public professional life and if he indecently touched children then I consider that to be his own personal hell.

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. Of course, the McMartin case you reference was begun by the accusations

of a schizophrenic woman who, beside the charges of abuse, claimed the owner of the day care could FLY (you'd think that would tip someone off, wouldn't you?).

The vast majority of abuse cases from the 80s and 90s that involved widespread, multiple victim abuse wound up being baseless - and the charges against MJ came from that era of hysteria.

From the look of it, a lot of people are still there.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

77. I absolutely despise the thought of child molestation

but I think we live in very heightened sensitive time towards child abuse. The mere accusation is something thought of as guilt in the public perception. When I was a child back in the 1950s, it was common for men to pat my head on the street (I'm a male) and nothing was thought of it. I remember black porters on trains patting and carressing my hair because my mother treated them with great respect. Now, I would never even look at a child in a supermarket and smile, as I would be afraid that someone would think I had some evil intent. Child abuse is very real and I completely condemn it. But I do know that when lots of money is involved, that some parents and their attorney would not hesitate to coach their child to lie. and I still wonder why the well-to-do parents of that kid settled out of court instead of seeking Jackson's punishment behind bars. How can mere money buy them off? About Jackson, I don't know one way or the other. But that was his personal nightmare if the charges were true. It doesn't affect how I feel about his tremendous artistry.

[wickerwoman]

78. The first accusation was in 93 and the second was in 2003.

Sorry, but I just don't buy that any sane person having lived through the media hell of '93 would ever, ever be alone with another person's child again let alone continue to invite children into their home and sleep in the same bed with them (whether or not inappropriate physical contact took place).

'93 could have been a scam or a misunderstanding, but 2003 shows a kind of compulsive behavior and/or the arrogance of enormous amounts of money and thinking that whatever he did, he could pay off the kid's family and go about his merry way.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt in '93 but the fact that he put himself in the position to be accused again suggests to me that he couldn't help himself from being in the position. And that's extremely troubling to me.

[Canuckistanian]

81. Bad form to use the McMartin case to make your point

That was an instance of sheer fantasy that damaged a lot of lives and reputations.

Not to take anything away from your general point, but try to make your examples relevant.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

86. My point concerned the impact of the McMartin case

whether it involved a bundle of lies and psychotic ravings or not. I think there's no doubt that the tremendous media attention devoted to that case served to greatly heighten the awareness and sensitivity towards the issue. I never stated that the facts of the McMartin case were real or that those facts were in any way relevant to the Jackson accusations.

[proteus_lives]

80. Fame and money make you bullet-proof.

MJ, OJ, Hulk Hogan's son, That Blake guy from that old detective show. Hell Halle Berry and Matthew Broderick ran people down like dogs in the road and they still walk down red-carpets. And let not forget Roman Polanski. He raped a 13-year old girl and fled to Europe and he gets Oscars and praise.

[earth mom]

84. duplicate

[earth mom]

85. I can't believe the denial that is going on around here.

Jeezus people, Michael Jackson admitted to sleeping with children!

How can anyone excuse that?! :wtf:

Having some good songs you can dance to doesn't excuse his horrific behavior, no way in hell!

The guy was a sad tragic figure but that does NOT excuse his behavior-not by a long shot.

[niceypoo]

133. Would the deniers allow Michael Jackson to babysit their kids?

???

[Hutzpa]

87. You seem disturbed,

it's a damn shame no one noticed it.

[hyphenate]

90. Well, of course I'm disturbed!

So many people around here ignoring the fact that a man was a pedophile, and instead of on a stage, he should have been added to the sexual deviant list and being listed as such.

I've seen child abuse, child molestation, been a victim to a degree myself (though I was smart enough to know what was going on and nipped it in the bud early), seen my niece going through it, and worked with victimes through the years. If MJ were you or I, he'd be flat on his ass in a cell somewhere for what he'd done, never mind being praised and treated like royally.

As for your comment, if you were trying to imply the OTHER meaning of the word "disturbed" I would say you were projecting, and leave it at that.

I've got nothing to gain one way or another, but I also know that child molesters of any stripe need to be kept away from those who can and will hurt them.

And enough of that really ridiculous "prove it" shit: lots of people get acquitted despite their guilt--and celebs are among those who get away more than your average citizen. And I knew people who stood behind MJ through the first instance, but ran for the hills after the second instance. Reason? If you knew the truth, you certainly wouldn't be able to support someone you knew waa guilty.

[Hutzpa]

96. After reading all that rant,

here's a simple question;

Was he ever convicted of any crime whatsoever??? :shrug:

[Marr]

102. Here's a question for you:

Do you also reserve judgement on the young men who did this?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/02/pa.immigrant.beating/

The court has ruled, so I assume you accept their findings. How do you feel about Robert Blake?

[hyphenate]

112. If you read my post, the answer is in the last paragraph:

>>>>>And enough of that really ridiculous "prove it" shit: lots of people get acquitted despite their guilt--and celebs are among those who get away more than your average citizen. And I knew people who stood behind MJ through the first instance, but ran for the hills after the second instance. Reason? If you knew the truth, you certainly wouldn't be able to support someone you knew waa guilty.<<<<<

[SammyWinstonJack]

88. .

:yoiks:

[WinkyDink]

92. We'll see more pity on DU when Cheney croaks.

[RainDog]

94. no you won't. n/t

[scheming daemons]

97. Cheney will go to the same place that Jackson went to....

...if hell exists...

[hyphenate]

115. Hardly

When Cheney goes to the great interrogation chamber in the sky, he will likely be the guy being water-boarded, and perhaps we will finally be able to go back to the Geneva Convention.

Personally, I don't believe in an afterlife per se, but I can believe that some element of our lives will always live on, especially with the people we have touched. OTOH, I guess it's nice to think there we are more than just being bug food after we've gone. And Cheney is a good example of finding the most exquisite punishment we can imagine after he's gone.

[cboy4]

99. Oh sweeet. Here's my hide thread button!!

:puke:

[Dogtown]

110. You do know that MJ was abused,

neh?

Also, you *think* he was a child molester, but you don't know.

That's a creepy grave-dance, hyphenate. Says a lot more about you than Michael.

:eyes:

[GeorgeGist]

117. Michael is free of the all the nonsense that disturbs you. Even his own.

Believe it or not, that's your Destiny also.

[quickesst]

119. I was never a big MJ fan....

...but did enjoy some of his music. I've read a few rest in peace threads, some threads reminiscing about times past, and so on, and I understand how people could feel about his death. The few threads such as this one that I have read have one thing in common. They are written in the hopes of hurting some feelings, or arousing anger, and every reply received expressing that hurt or anger is like a drop of sweet nectar to them. Simply put, they feed on it, but it is born out of outrage that anyone would dare think differently than they on a subject that has no absolute answer, and never will have now. I believe the courts found him innocent beause there was nothing to find him guilty of, which make me, in the minds of others, somehow condoning what they perceive to be a heinous crime. Maybe I'm just expressing my dislike for grave dancers, and the way they intenionally try to hurt others. My opinion. Thanks.
quickesst

[mullard12ax7]

121. Ut oh, you spoke your mind

Better to just keep all your real thoughts to yourself in a country where we allow war criminals to go free, anti-gay and anti-women laws to flourish and worst of all, where we allow media propaganda to thoroughly brainwash our citizens to the point of worshipping surgically-mutated, drug-addicted pedophiles who won't even allow his "servants" to look him in the eye.

My pretty mind just can't stand the thought that you didn't worship him, you must be chastised and ignored!

[hyphenate]

122. It does seem that way around here

sometimes, doesn't it?

Even some of my repub friends (though not the nutters) tell me that while they don't agree with me, they will defend to the death my right to my opinion. Sometimes around here, it seems that there are many who wouldn't even grudgingly agree with that. It is one of the reasons people leave, when they find they can't even say what they want to on some matters without being attacked. There just seem to be more sharks in the water who smell blood and go into a feeding frenzy.

I knew when I posted this thread that there were people who would disagree, and I accepted that. But I am sick and tired of some of the hypocrisy that happens in instances like this. As someone who has had abuse happen to them, and within the family, the thought of praising someone like MJ makes me sick to my stomach. And my opinion is based on talking with and hearing from people who actually knew more about the allegations than most. As a court of law might remind me, there is a difference between what can be proven, and what can't. It just happens to be this knot in your stomach that won't go away.

I guess, though, I've been read the riot act, and need to shut up about it all.

[armyowalgreens]

129. There is a big difference between speaking your mind and speaking absolute BS...

I am someone on here that often clashes with fellow DUers. Differing opinion is not always welcome in this place for many reasons. And I think it's bad to shun someone simply because they question convention.

But this OP is a hunk of fucking shit. Sorry, it really is. And to shit on a mans grave is really pretty horrible.

[marimour]

124. so you posted a thread just to spit on someones grave?

How disgusting of you. Bet you're steaming mad OJ got off too right? Its funny how those two (in particular) seem to stir up such anger in some people! :) :popcorn:

[greguganus]

125. Just think if they were repugs. Spitting would be okay. n/t

[armyowalgreens]

128. So you wish brutal torture on another human being and falsly accuse a man of child rape?

NO, I don't have to pre-judge your OP to realize that you are an ass.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

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