As a Jew, I'm perfectly capable of enjoying Wagner's music without liking Wagner the man.

[Bicoastal]

Similar thing with Jackson.

I'm perfectly capable of disliking MJ the person, and at the same time rocking out to songs like this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_hz2am90Hk&feature=channel">this, this, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5jHhIY8SUY">this.

RIP Michael.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. It's Sad When Anybody Dies Especially When They Die Young

And yeah, hia music rocked...

[LaurenG]

2. Nicely stated - I was trying to make the same point, unsuccessfully.

:(

[lame54]

3. tell us more about Wagner

[mzteris]

7. Wagner

was extremely anti-semitic.

Hitler worshipped the man.

[ColbertWatcher]

9. Wagner was Hitler's Andrew Lloyd Weber. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. LOL

I've never heard it put quite that way.

[ColbertWatcher]

19. I just find it hard to believe that there are people who don't know who Wagner is. n/t

[Posteritatis]

30. Plenty of people know his name/music, rather fewer his life and politics (nt)

[AngryAmish]

45. Didn't he invent the Power-Painter?

[MilesColtrane]

46. He used to yodel 'Tristan and Isolde' at the Grand Ole Opry.

[ColbertWatcher]

54. It's called "Tristan UND Isolde". Amateur. n/t

[timtom]

56. Not the way Porter sings it.

[Posteritatis]

14. Ouch! Accurate, but ouch! (nt)

[ColbertWatcher]

20. Well? Weber is about as flamboyant a librettist/composer there is today.

There's a reason why those Bugs Bunny cartoons worked so well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiX9pxPWuo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGhQ2BDt4VE

[crispini]

16. SNORT

:spray: Well done, very pithy. You are worthy of your name! :patriot:

[ColbertWatcher]

21. Thank you, I try. n/t

[malaise]

17. Beautifully stated

WOW :applause:

[ColbertWatcher]

22. Thank you, no offense to Lloyd Weber, of course. n/t

[Paladin]

24. What's That Famous Statement About Wagner?

"He sounds better than he really is" or words to that effect. Clever stuff......

[cemaphonic]

67. my favorite quote about his music

Wagner has wonderful moments, and dreadful quarters of an hour

[cemaphonic]

25. then there's Off, who was actually a Nazi (opportunistically, not ideologically)

but everyone still loves the Carmina Burana.

[timtom]

57. Carl Orff?

A Nazi? I'm done with him, then.

[cemaphonic]

59. well, like I said, more opportunistic than anything else

He never joined the party or expressed their ideology, and he seems to have felt pretty guilty about the association after WWII. But unlike many of the prominent artists of his generation, he stuck around in Germany furthering his career, and even accepted some commissions from the Nazis.

[Dorian Gray]

55. Yes

but more talented.

[jmondine]

61. Just for clarification, Wagner died in 1883

The posts above make it sound like Wagner was Hitler's contemporary. Doesn't mean what y'all said isn't true. I'm just clearing up an inference that may mislead those unfamiliar with European history.

[cemaphonic]

68. true, though it wasn't just a case of Hitler liking his music either

Hitler liked Beethoven too after all. While we mostly know Wagner as a composer/librettist, in his day he was a political and philosophical writer, and a reasonably influential one, due to his musical prominence.

While he was hardly the only one, and certainly not the first, he did play a big part in formulating the ideology of Jews as an insidious corrupting element within German society.

[Ignis]

66. Don't cry for me, Austria?

Well put, sir. :thumbsup:

[Mojambo]

4. Yep. You got it straight

Even though I don't really care for his music.

I can respect people who mourn the loss of the music, but mourning the loss of this man? I don't get that. He was a creepy douche.

[kestrel91316]

8. He was a creepy douche as a mature man, but I guess I can't forget that

at one time he was an innocent child. Something went very wrong, and it's sad.

So now we have a sad end to a sad story, the details of which we will probably never know.

[Fire1]

31. That's funny. I say the same thing about some folks on this

board!! HA!:P

[Mz Pip]

5. He was strange but

he was also very talented. I like his music, too.

RIP.

[rucky]

I'm the other way around.

I thought he was an interesting and wrongfully misunderstood fellow. Respected his talent and his compassion, but was never much for his music.

[mrbarber]

35. Wrongfully misunderstood?

He was a goddamn child molester. What's misunderstood about that?

[Dappleganger]

6. Excellent.

[billyoc]

10. Thank you.

:evilgrin:

[subcomhd]

15. yeah, I have to say

I still crank up the Old Nuge if it's on the radio - but he's is a total right-wing ass. And I think the crap he did with the Night Ranger pansies really sucked. Damn Yankees, that was it.

I heard Jon Malkovich was a wing-nut too.

I think Wagner sucked, regardless of his politics.

[paulsby]

40. stranglehold

is imo one of the greatest rocks songs ever. that riff is sick!

[subcomhd]

42. one of the most misogynist ic songs ever too

but it does f'n ROCK. Another reason to dislike the Nuge is the fact he slams Jimmy Page as an overrated guitar player. But I guess if you can play like TN, you are allowd to criticize.

[paulsby]

43. i know a couple who had stranglehold as

"their song" during their wedding.

they have a pretty ironic sense of humor :)

there certainly are a fair # of misogynistic rock songs. and even a few misandrist ones !

under my thumb is up there.

STP got a lot of shit for "sex type thing".

lyrics:
I am, I am, I am
I said I wanna get next to you
I said I gonna get close to you
You wouldnt want me have to hurt you too, hurt you too?

I aint, I aint, I aint
A buyin into your apathy
Im gonna learn ya my philosophy
You wanna know about atrocity, atrocity?

I know you want whats on my mind
I know you like whats on my mind
I know it eats you up inside
I know, you know, you know, you know

I am a man, a man
Ill give ya somethin that ya wont forget
I said ya shouldnt have worn that dress
I said ya shouldnt have worn that dress

I know you want whats on my mind
I know you like whats on my mind
I know it eats you up inside
I know, you know, you know, you know

Here I come, I come, I come

I am, I am, I am
I said I wanna get next to you
I said I gonna get close to you
You wouldnt want me have to hurt you too, hurt you too?

I know you want whats on my mind
I know you like whats on my mind
I know it eats you up inside
I know, you know, you know, you know
I know you want whats on my mind
I know you like whats on my mind
I know it eats you up inside
I know, you know, you know, you know

Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come
Here I come, I come, I come

[subcomhd]

44. Did he actually sing that?

I know he sang some of his songs, but didn't his band have a singer, in addition to him? Back when he was good i was too young to go to his shows. By the time I had my own income, he was sucking and spouting nazi crap. Now I wouldn't give a penny to see him. Right-wing a-hole who used to make good music, hmmm, can you say Limewire?

[paulsby]

52. yes

in the original incarnation, it was another singer who sang it.

but he's been singing it himself for a long time now. i actually like his singing better.

what i also respect about nugent (besides his artistry) is his iconcoclastism.

a rock star who (in the 70's!!!) didn't do drugs or drink?

now THAT is revolutionary.

[rvablue]

11. Best thread on this yet! Thank you for articulating tastefully. n/t

[Kahuna]

12. Mike was seriously gifted. Too bad about the other stuff, but DAMN!!

He was incredibly talented.

[Fire1]

18. I think it all depends on what you believe to be true or false

about the person in question. I, for example, never believed he sexually abused any child. I have my theories, however, about what REALLY happened but don't care to elaborate.

[ColbertWatcher]

23. I agree.

I seriously doubt he molested any of the children and thought he probably treated them the way he wished he would have been treated.

[Odin2005]

26. IMO he never really matured mentally, leading to well-meaning, but creepy, behavior.

Adult men being too affectionate with kids not related to them is seen as creepy for perfectly justifiable reasons, since it often indicates that the guy is a child molester. But in MJs case it was merely because his abusive childhood left him with the emotional maturity of a child.

[Fire1]

29. That doesn't mean he should be condemned by people

who REALLY DON'T KNOW anything other than what the media has told them. I have my theories that includes skepticism and suspicion of those parents AND those children, despite MJ's idiosyncrasies.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. I always thought that was the case.

He built Neverland for himself, because he was, in essence, a ten year old kid, and it is a ten year old's playground.

A sad situation, to be so rich, have so much power, and so little judgment on what to do with it.

[ieoeja]

65. That is exactly what I always believed as well.

When my ex-wife's boy was nine, everytime we popped over to the park we'd run into this ten year old who was always alone. My boy and I were pretty jealous of our time with each other, but I'd always make some time for this kid as well.

I always hated running into that boy when I was alone. Particularly when I would run into him late at night still playing on the street. He wanted to hang out with me so much, but I couldn't because of that "creepy old bachelor living alone and playing with small boys" perception problem.

Don't know what the story was with his family. Didn't want to call 911. He seemed healthy enough and all. Now I know who I could call, but had no idea at that time. No idea what happened to him. After that summer I never ran into him again. I can only hope things worked out for the best.

But everytime people start bashing MJ, I think of that kid and get pissed at the bashers. Because it's people like them that prevented me from helping this kid.


Furthermore, I know perfectly well my empathy for that kid and others -- I was told the school's entire after care program was crestfallen when I stopped picking up my ex-wife's kid from there -- is due largely to the fact that I was a kid who grew up too fast. Nothing like MJ, of course. But fast enough to know something is missing.

[Scout]

27. thank you for the links n/t

[dorkulon]

28. I'm also capable of not really giving that much of a crap he's dead.

Yeah, he made some great songs. But I don't think a one-line story deserves constant, preemptive coverage.

[JI7]

32. a lot of people are just tuning in after work and other things

[robinlynne]

34. not me. I can't listen to wagner or make coffee in a krups coffeepot ever!

But I love Michael Jackson.

[MoonRiver]

36. I'm not able to be that disconnected from the person.

As an example, I totally boycotted all of Woody Allen's movies after he seduced Mia Farrow's daughter. I do not forget, especially if the offense involves minors.

[paulsby]

41. what woody allen did was a lot better than what polanski did

and they are both great artists.

polanski drugged and raped his victim.

woody married her!

[MoonRiver]

47. I wasn't comparing Polanski with Allen!

Polanski was a creep too, btw. Just because one creep was more violent than another creep does not excuse the behavior of the "lesser" creep.

[paulsby]

51. of course not

i was just trying to be humorous.

emphasis on trying :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

62. Never mind that she was an adult when they got together.

And they subsequently married.

[MoonRiver]

71. I pity you. EOM.

[RaleighNCDUer]

72. I pity you your bitterness over people you don't even know.

Allen's affair with Soon-Yi Previn.

"Even though Allen never married or lived with Farrow,<49> and was never Previn's legal stepfather, the relationship between Allen and Previn has often been referred to as a father dating his "stepdaughter," <50> since he had been perceived as being in the child's life in a father-like capacity since she was seven years old. Despite assertions from Previn that Allen was never a father-figure to her,<51> the relationship drew much public and media scrutiny. At the time, Allen was 56 and Previn was 22."

From the Wikipedia article.

So the whole story is "middle-aged man marries 22 year old woman who he had known since she was a child."

[david13]

37. Vaht yew iss doink iss not pronouncing it right. It's Vagner.

He had bad ideas. But rather good and powerful music. His ideas are dead. His music lives on.
Long ago I had to give up listening to any mj. He was just too frighteningly far gone for me.
dc

[Forkboy]

38. I feel that way about Burzum...

[Vidar]

39. Good point.

[Zavulon]

48. I couldn't care less about Jackson the man; as for his music,

I honestly hated it. I don't hate him, but his music made me want to vomit.

[6000eliot]

49. I loathe Wagner enough for both of us.

[UndertheOcean]

50. Ok , MJ was talented , but comparing him to Wagner makes me flinch

he doesn't deserve to be a flea on Wagner's Dog.

[mitchtv]

53. Few enjoy Wagner, I'm glad you can

I listened to the Valkyrie. Sat on KUSC. nice. I like MJ too

[scheming daemons]

58. I agree.. he created great music... even while he was a child predator

[Karenina]

60. Wagner may be more fun to play

than to listen to... :evilgrin:

[eppur_se_muova]

63. Well, it really is much better than it sounds.

IOU to Samuel Clemens.

[greiner3]

64. As an Irishman;

(Several generations past) I'm capable of enjoying the Beatles, Rolling Stones, etc...

Just saying.

As a German, with the stipulation mentioned above, I can enjoy all music; albeit with a lot of guilt!

[JuniperLea]

69. Well said! I love Carl Orff's Carmina Burana too!

O Fortuna is one of my all time favorite songs. I don't bother myself with the Hitler crap.


I met my favorite guitar god, spoke to him almost daily for over a year, and found he was a rabid RWer... I still think he's one of the very best, and his signature song contains one of the most powerful guitar riffs known to mankind.

[1]

70. everyone knows wagner. his most famous work was "kill the wabbit"...

[bridgit]

73. I feel similar about Thomas Hart Benton

[Princess Turandot]

74. I feel compelled to mention that one of the most played pieces of music...

around, at least in the US, is Treulich geführt from Lohengrin, aka "Here Comes the Bride".

And for the OP whom I assume is familiar with the operas, I had one of the funniest experiences of my life (in terms of opera-going at least) when my insane sister told me that she had taken a diuretic right before she left her apartment to meet me at a performance of Das Rheingold. One Act. No intermissions. As long as 4 hours. And the Met doesn't let you back into the theater if you take a non-intermission potty break. (The med was not hers; she's taken it from a bf for 'water retention'.) She watched about 2 1/2 hours of it from a room with a close circuit tv for latecomers.