Michael Jackson and Pedophilia accusations.

[cecilfirefox]

People, let me make this clear, it's a dead horse. Let it lay dead.

At the end of the day you are either convinced that he is or wasn't and I will say absolutely and unequivocally that there is no way of knowing for sure. It's all a matter of he said she said.

He's dead. It's done. GTFO, let the horse be, bury the thing.

[CatWoman]

1. this is not directed at you

but this place needs to be renamed "Holier-than-thou Underground"

[hlthe2b]

13. I could not agree more...

;)

[niceypoo]

27. If the 'Jacko' threads disgust you so much...

...why plunge into them with such fervency? All ya gotta do is resist the urge to 'click' and they will go away in a couple days.

or....

Think of the children

[Joe Fields]

56. Your comment is exactly one of the reasons America is so fucked up.

Holier than thou?

How about we take a sick freaking multi-millionaire who has been pampered all his life, chooses to not pay his bills, (tens of thousands owed to pharmacies for prescription meds, but never paid), sued by the royal family of Bahrain for services contracted for but never delivered) weirder than fuck, probable pedophile, inked a deal for a 50 city tour that he KNEW he could never complete, need I go on....

And if we don't look up to him or have negative comments about this very imperfect, very strange, boy loving person then we are holier than thou?

This (your) attitude permeates America, and it is very sad that we have come to this moment in time, where people who are repulsed by this behavior are looked upon as abnormal puritans.

I say you can all blow it out your ass, and I wouldn't want to know any of you.

A little bit judgemental? You're goddamned right.

[anneboleyn]

59. The whole, "Oh let's just forget about the little pedophile thing" really bugs me.

[Lerkfish]

2. provide a valid justification for a 37 year old man having sleepovers with young boys

which Michael admitted to.

go ahead.

[Kittycat]

4. And then paying them off to the tune of Millions.

[Lerkfish]

6. yeah, kinda funny, isn't it?

[cecilfirefox]

5. How about he's just wierd and had a jacked up childhood that messed his adult life? Or better yet

PROVE that something happened.

Oh, wait, we can't really prove anything so let's nerdrage on DU about it.

Really, dead, get over it.

[Lerkfish]

9. and what was that jacked up childhood? oh yeah, he was a victim of child abuse

you ever heard of abused children growing up to abuse other children?

[Kittycat]

11. But, but... this is michael, he could sing and dance.

because apparently that makes it all okay.

[Lerkfish]

15. by the same token, I also don't want to hear people according sainthood to Farrah, or Diana, either

simply because they passed away.

Farrah was a passable actress a self-admitted T&A show. Towards the end of her life she made a special and wanted everyone to watch it and lament her condition, just because she was a celebrity.

I'm sorry that they died, I'm sorry when ANYONE dies, but that never means I pretend they were saints just because people knew who they were.

[Kittycat]

62. I don't hold as much weight for either, as well - however..

Diana is a different issue, that I believe involves a cover-up at some level.

[CoffeeCat]

20. As a victim of childhood sexual abuse...

I'm the last person who would make excuses for pedophiles or rationalize away sexualized behavior toward children.
My offenders were never convicted--or even inconvenienced--by what they did to me. So, I get pretty angry when
people minimize stuff like this.

However, in Michael Jackson's case--it really is entirely possible that the man's background, childhood and dysfunctional
family could explain why he loved being around kids and why he saw this as all innocent. Jackson has routinely said
that he never had a childhood. He was under so much pressure, and his father was not loving--he was a tyrannical manager
who treated Michael like a paycheck. So, it really is entirely possible that Michael became emotionally stunted. He
grew up, but he remained a boy, longing for a childhood.

So, he gravitated toward children and toward a childlike life. His Neverland ranch, with the petting zoo and rides seemed more
about giving himself a childhood and being like a child.

It's difficult though...because some of this is classic pedophile personality. Pedophiles are usually very emotionally
stunted, and they don't relate well to adults. Children seem less threatening to them. So, they become attracted to them
because it's easier for them to relate to adults who are more sophisticated and mature. Some pedophiles covet children. They
resent them for being so innocent and vulnerable, and they want to strip all of that away. Obviously, if Jackson was a pedophile,
he wasn't that kind of pedophile.

It's possible that Jackson was so severely damaged by his father and other adults who exploited him--that he didn't like adults
and didn't want to grow up to be like them. Growing up meant bad things to him.

I think many children who hail from abusive homes can be immature like this. They fear growing up because they have been
shattered. I don't think I'm breaking any confidences (i'm not naming names or anything) when I mention that it's not at all
unusual to see victims of sexual abuse, in support group settings---who have stuffed animals and blankets with them. I've
seen it all of the time.

The world of the psychologically injured adult child really is a very unique space.

[Lerkfish]

23. I'll grant that that is possible, but however its very unlikely

and doesn't explain the million dollar settlement.

and, like I said, there is not a VALID reason to sleep with young boys like that, even if you don't have sex with them, because of the confusion and psychological damage it does to the children, because it makes it seem like its oK to do that.

[KharmaTrain]

28. Money Makes Problems Go Away...

I believe that Jacko was the victim of having a childhood cut short and spending his life trying to recover it. The sleepovers may have been some form of acceptance. By no means am I excusing it...it was strange behavior and easy for many to draw conclusions of abuse. I also accept the verdict of judge and jury that had far greater access to facts that determined he wasn't guilty. This has zero to do with his stardom...just the facts as have been presented over the years.

The stardom does play in as it appears Jacko surrounded himself with people who let him drift out of the real world. He squandered millions on many people...again, trying to win an acceptance or just to make problems go away. The real warp in his life was the money as it made possible to be able to be a child...or create your own world along with a "posse" to protect that bubble.

The money also make Jacko a target. There were those who were after his assets, others who milked off his performances, still others who benefitted from his many quirks. We now hear mea culpas and lots of angst from those in his inner circle, yet they all had a part in his personal and physical destruction.

I've avoided the Jacko posts...and I do have a problem with parents who surely knew of Jacko's strange relationship with children and let them go.

[CoffeeCat]

30. Yes, I totally agree with you...

...that it is inappropriate for a grown man (no matter how immature he is) to sleep in the same bed with children, as if you're
having a slumber party.

I think it is a boundary violation. Grown ups are supposed to be the adults and set these boundaries between adults and children.

It is a very self absorbed decision to make, too. Just because Michael thought it was ok, didn't mean it was appropriate for
the children. It was not in their best interests.

The million-dollar settlement is easier for me to understand. If someone accuses you of something so heinous, and you have
all the money in the world--settling seems like a way to make it to away just to end the nightmare.

One thing that remains unclear to me. There was a child who supposedly described Jackson's private parts in great detail--down
to some identifying or unique characteristics. I don't mean to be graphic here, but I've always wondered how that was settled.
Jackson did rec'v an examination. So, did the child know what Jackson 'looked like' (or not) and was the child accurate about
in his description? If so, doesn't that pretty much point toward guilt? Unclear if this was an issue from the settle case or
the case that went to trial.

[Lerkfish]

34. my recollection is he fled the US to avoid direct examination of his genitalia

and then had it examined in another country instead.

[CoffeeCat]

41. I remember video...

...that has been repeated since his death, also---in which he describes "humiliating examinations". This is the video
where he begs everyone not to judge him, as he insists that the truth will come out and that he did not do these things.

It's my understanding that he did get the examination. I wonder if this wasn't part of the settled case--because the answer
to this question is so unclear.

[cecilfirefox]

50. It's also possible he paid them off to avoid a trial that wasn't true. Or maybe to get away with

it. The point is no one knows for sure. Period. We can guess or lean either way. End of line.

[regnaD kciN]

42. Settling out-of-court is NOT an admission of guilt...

Why would Jackson settle (for what, for him at the time, was not a whole lot of his fortune) instead of demanding that the case go to trial so he could prevail? I think the answer is as clear as the aftermath of the trial he did go through years later. Even though, in that trial, he was acquitted fourteen times, people (including some here) either brush off the acquittal or believe that he was "proven" guilty. For a celebrity, and one who is dependent on being seen favorably in the public eye, having your name dragged through a year-plus judicial proceeding on one of the most heinous charges known to civilization isn't worth the cost, even if you do win in the end. And you can bet that, had he fought the lawsuit, taken it to trial, and won, the same people here who claim that his acquittal on criminal charges "means nothing" would have been saying the exact same thing about a victory in the civil suit.

Celebrities have known one thing since the trial of comedian Fatty Arbuckle in the early part of the twentieth century, where Arbuckle was completely exonerated of tabloid-worthy tawdry charges in the death of a young woman at one of his parties, but still found himself blacklisted for the rest of his life: if the charges are shocking enough, even if you win at trial, you still wind up losing big, just by having those charges repeated over and over in conjunction with your name. The wisest choice has always been to pay off the accuser (if possible and affordable) rather than lose your career even though winning the case.

[cecilfirefox]

54. Devils advocate: If your child is molested why accept money for it? Again, no way to know the truth.

[csziggy]

60. +10

[regnaD kciN]

33. I think your analysis may be pretty much dead-on...

I don't think Jackson molested children -- that would be using them in an adult way for his adult pleasure, and I think he psychologically resisted adulthood in all its forms. I think he became stuck, mentally, at an age before sexual desires, and may have even thought of sex (whether heterosexual or homosexual, and with a partner of whatever age) as "icky" and disgusting.

I do, however, think he was using children -- not as sex objects, but as means to get himself back to childhood, almost as if by osmosis. And, as a parent, I would not have wanted a child of mine to have a close relationship with Jackson even if I was thoroughly convinced there was a 0% chance of molestation, simply because I think it isn't healthy for children to be around an adult who so clearly wanted nothing to do with adulthood and desperately wanted to be "one of them." That sort of bizarre attitude toward growing up and using of children so he could act like a child himself could, I think, do some degree of psychological damage to the kids around him, even if it wouldn't be as severe as using a child sexually.

[Hansel]

47. Good thoughtful post.

I read somewhere today that his family claims he was schizophrenic and was diagnosed when he was a child. If that is true, that would explain being stuck at a young age. In fact, that would explain a lot--especially the bizarre behavior and even his exceptional talent.

I had a good friend who was a schizophrenic. She never aged past being a child, in fact, she backslid. She became ill at 19 and lived as child under her parents guardianship after her friends began to exploit her for insurance money she received after her husband's death. Her behavioral change was extreme and bizarre. Everything is beginning to make sense.

I think he did use these kids but I'm not convinced he molested them. I actually doubt he did. But if he was schizophrenic, his handlers can share most of the blame for his actions. The comment I keep hearing is that the problem was that the people who surrounded him never told him no. There seems to be an acceptance of those making those statements that he needed to be treated as a child. I'm starting to understand why.

[blueamy66]

44. Wow.

I can relate.

Your post is wonderful....I am almost in tears thinking of my experiences.

[CoffeeCat]

45. Know that you are not alone...

After a support group meets for a while, we all start talking about the "weird" things we've
done. Then someone admits they did the same thing. It's so liberating. Such a relief.

Most of us spent so much time being blamed for our own abuse. We were the family scapegoats.
So, it's natural to assume that our different behavior are wrong--or somehow a validation of
what the abusers said, that we were bad or that we deserved it.

I've seen this happen a lot on online support groups as well. One person talks about stuffed
animals, or thumb sucking or even "acting out" behaviors, and others admit to it as well.

After everything we've endured, it's just part of the coping process.

:hugs:

[blueamy66]

69. Thank you.

:hug:

[LWolf]

70. Well put.

I don't know the truth, and don't feel a need to proclaim him "guilty" or "innocent," especially now that he cannot speak for himself.

I do believe, and I always have, that he was sad, lonely, and psychologically injured.

It seems obvious that he didn't want to be an adult. He, for whatever reason, and by whatever means, avoided becoming a physical adult, even making sure that his voice never "changed." Socially and emotionally? I can't begin to say where he was at, except that he seemed to live in pain.

While the circus surrounding him continues after his death, I hope he's found some peace at last.

[xiamiam]

31. if you cannot imagine the possibility of an innocent experience..that relflects on your thoughts..

he has explained himself millions of times..why is there no possibility for that being truth in your psyche?

[Lerkfish]

36. as a parent, no, I cannot accept that risk

and how do you know what the truth is? And why, if I think he's a pedophile, does that make ME somehow unsavory?

[itsrobert]

3. Yes, let's stop all the tell all books soon to come out

It's not over, it's the beginning of a media frenzy like you never seen.

[tekisui]

7. Was this thread started just to beat the dead horse a little more?

[Tejas]

12. Imagine that!

[gmoney]

8. "he said she said"?

Wouldn't that be "he said he said, and in the second case the second he is underage"

[musicblind]

25. Or a manipulative parent

[boppers]

10. Perhaps, in the interest of letting it go away....

...you should start a thread on the topic(?)

[pennylane100]

14. Well your post is a great way not to end the discussion,

But, what I think will be interesting is the upcoming decision on who will raise his children.
I think that will keep the talking heads busy until the next election. I just hope they get the best possible outcome, whatever that may be.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

16. I want a solid-gold unicorn. If I wish it to be so, will I have one?

Sorry...it's not a dead horse.

It might have been a dead horse if Michael had successfully completed his planned "comeback" tour, or maybe not.

But the last exposure that the public had to Michael Jackson was the "not guilty" verdict from his trial, and while the "faithful" set free white doves and cried tears of joy, that did not express the reaction of everyone who followed the proceedings.

He's dead. You're right.

It's done. You're wrong.

It's just beginning. You'll find that out in the months ahead as the vultures gather over the carcass.

Such is the nature of celebrity.

[TexasObserver]

17. "Why won't everyone who disagrees with me stop talking?!"

Isn't that the gist of your post?

Stop wearing your blinders, speaking of horses.

[Lerkfish]

19. bingo!

[CatWoman]

21. no

it's 'why don't "you" stop talking'

[TexasObserver]

24. It's exactly what I said it was.

If you want to be his apologist, that's your choice.

If I want to be rational and think otherwise, that's my choice.

[jaysunb]

32. You're not rational....

stop fooling yourself. :evilfrown:

You and others of your ilk remind me of that preacher and his followers that go to dead servicemens funerals to spout ugly things to the dead and their families.

[TexasObserver]

40. Of course I am. You're blinded by your love of THRILLER and BILLIE JEAN.

And stop with the lame comparisons to the wacky church that is so wacky, it's wackier than Jacko was.

[tekisui]

52. But those songs changed my life!!@!11!! And the WORLD!!!11!

:)

[jaysunb]

55. I'm a little too old for that kind of

"blind love."

I'm more inclined to favor, truth and respect.

[TexasObserver]

64. Truth and Respect have zero to do with liking MJ.

He was a middle aged pedophile. That's the truth. Respect it.

[jaysunb]

66. I can't and won't "respect" that.

You have no proof of that and if you had any sense of shame or self respect you would keep those kind of unsubstantiated thoughts to yourself.
If you have other information, you should have given it to DA Sneddon so he could have proved his case.
Continuing to press the case for your own set of facts is, a "fools errand," to folks like me.
Spitting and pissing on the graves of others is just bad forum.
Please stop.

[TexasObserver]

67. Living in denial is your choice, then.

[WeDidIt]

22. +1

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasObserver]

51. Please calm down.

We have rules here against making that kind of personal attack. Please read them.

[cecilfirefox]

53. Don't tout rules in front of me when I call you on an unjust and untruthful implication. nt

[TexasObserver]

63. Not touting, but INFORMING you, so you'll know better.

As I said, calm down.

[cecilfirefox]

68. No, you made an accusation and an implication that is untrue. It is a lie. Three letters, l i e.

[cwydro]

18. ...

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

26. If proving it were not so difficult to do

Jackson would be in prison and alive today,perhaps even made it to a drug rehab prison program . But it's not a easy thing to prove in court, so he's dead, so what.

Brace yerselves fer the truth as it shall come.

[WeDidIt]

29. He had a lot of "hangers on" with no income now

Tell all books about keeping the coast clear while diddling went on will be forthcoming.

Guranteed.

You cannot libel or slander the dead.

[armyowalgreens]

38. I think the family might be able to bring a defamation lawsuit.

[TexasObserver]

65. Ha! No, they cannot do so.

He's DEAD. A dead person can't be defamed. You have to have a LIVE plaintiff to pursue a claim for defamation.

Oh, and one other problem for the "MJ is GOD" troops: the TRUTH is a defense to defamation suits.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

39. Contrary to sometimes popular beliefs

It's not about putting the truth to bed.
Wrongs must be righted. The truth in and of itself can make that happen.
Have you never heard of the victim speaking out from the grave ?
So what's a walking victim right ?

No this isn't about voodoo , or Jackson's interest in it.
It's about truth.
It doesn't always please you.
But it is always pure and clean.

Never cared fer his music and don't care to read any tell all books.


And if you want to know about the effects pedophiles have on their victims ,there is information in the tonnage available.

Jackson was no genus and he was not smart enough to beat science . The facts will eventually tell the truth.

[LisaL]

35. Shouldn't it be "he said, he said?" Jackson was never accused

of molesting females.

[LAGC]

74. I also find it odd...

That in all cases where he either settled or went to court, it involved a 13-year-old boy, and that they all looked alike. (dark hair, dark eyes). Why the similarities? If they didn't all fit his "profile" that M.J. was apparently attracted to, maybe the allegations would have less merit.

[ddiver]

37. I don't take orders from keyboard generals. GTFO

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blueamy66]

43. Great post.

[TheCowsCameHome]

46. This will certainly help end these accusations and endless posts

:banghead:

[Joe Fields]

58. gee, just a couple of days after his death. hell of a coincidence.

[Skittles]

61. I was never truly convinced

did he have an abnormal desire to be around children? Yes. Was he molesting them? I certainly do not know for sure.

[laureloak]

71. Oh no it's not a dead horse. It NEVER will be. n/t

[KansDem]

72. BREAKING: George W. Bush was a good president...

He wasn't convicted of anything either.

[Cali_Democrat]

73. He had a strange obsession with children

He loved to have children sleep over at his place and his Neverland Ranch was a child's paradise.

Was it weird? Absolutely.

Does it mean that he molested children? We really don't know that for sure. Nobody does. But in this country we are innocent until proven guilty and he was never convicted of child molestation.

We should focus on his incredible talents and his ability to bring people together from all walks of life.

The man will be missed by millions.

[W_HAMILTON]

75. Yep.

I was one of the many that made fun of him, but now that he's passed, I look back on everything and see it in a different light.

It was "weird" for him to wear those masks in public, then it comes out that he possibly had a rare lung disease.

It was "weird" for his children to always be wearing masks, but then after realizing how fame stole his childhood, it somewhat makes sense why he would try to shield them from the same fate.

And realizing that Jackson really didn't have a childhood, and seems to have been pressured by all the adults in his life, I can see why he would find such happiness being around kids -- it was a way for him to live the childhood he never had, and the kids did not pressure him the way the money-grabbing adults did. Until the molestation charges came out...and Jackson never really seemed to be the same.

It's a sad story. Jackson did a lot of things that were "weird" by most standards, but given his situation, I can somewhat understand why he did some of those things.

Having said that, I now doubt that he did molest those children. In almost any other situation, it would be easy to suspect that the person was guilty of the charges, but as we already know, Michael Jackson was unlike "any other situation."

It's just a very tragic story.