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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 12:55 PM
Original message
My husband's little chat with Chase collections
For those who haven't been breathlessly keeping up with our family, we've been out of work since November 17th. My husband has sent out hundreds of resumes, made followup phone calls, and had a few interviews. The last one was for a contract position in the Seattle area. The initial hiring pool was 4,000 people. It came down to two -- he and another guy. The other guy got the job. This has happened a few times now.

We have been living on a combo of a little severance, our tax return, and unemployment. We are now talking about cashing out a 401K.

We have applied for the "homeowner bailout". We have been making our house payment, even though it is getting increasingly difficult to do so. We've been waiting four months for the paperwork. When we called Chase to inquire as to when the paperwork might be arriving at our house, we were told that they still could wait another 90-120 days. There's no rush. Well, unless they want money.

We have an old credit card we're still paying off. Guess who now owns it? One of Chase's collectors just called us. We don't qualify for their hardship program because our income is "temporary". Uh-huh. As the guy told my husband, "What happens when the unemployment runs out?"

Gosh, that's a good question, isn't it? :sarcasm:
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TwixVoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sell the house
take the cash and use it as needed.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. TwixVoy, I don't mean to sound bitchy
Where is it that we're supposed to live? We do not have a job, which is necessary to rent anything.

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TwixVoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. You obviously will not be able to keep the house
taking what you can and running is the best option... otherwise you draw out the inevitable and walk away with nothing.

How much are you paying per month on your mortgage? More than likely you can rent a LOT cheaper if you bought during the high point of the housing bubble.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. TwixVoy, I've always appreciated your comments
but right now, you're pissing me off.

If we leave the house, we will not be able to find another place to live. It is impossible to get a rental without a JOB.

We are writing to Senator Murray's office; they evidently have had some luck with holding lenders' feet to the fire to get the paperwork to avail ourselves of the homeowners' bailout.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. Did you originally have your mortgage w/ Wamu?
I have friends going through the exact same thing in Seattle. I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through. As to the suggestion to 'sell your house' - sheesh, what a dumb thing to suggest, especially considering how tough the housing market is.

Try not to get discouraged. What fields do you and your husband work in?
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Hi Matariki!
No, our mortgage has always been with Chase. We're still making our payments. We don't want to end up in the street. At the same time, it's somewhat amusing that the highly touted "homeowner bailout" doesn't seem to be working that well...

I will cross my fingers for your friends in Seattle, too.

My husband: IT guy. Twenty years' experience.

Me: I'm an author. Needless to say, I'm hoping someone out there needs a good secretary. ;-)
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. You guys are on the eastside?
What sort of IT stuff does he do? I'm a web dev - I'll keep my ears open for positions for him.

4000 people applying for one IT position in Seattle? That's scary.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I would SO appreciate this!
Yes, we're on the Eastside. He's a software engineer, and has extensive network admin experience as well. He WAS a project manager when this all happened; this is proving to be an issue, too.

If you want his e-mail, I'm happy to PM it to you. I know he'd appreciate it!

Again, thank you. Yeah, 4,000 in the initial pool of folks was more than a bit scary to both of us. :scared:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. to who...?
THAT is the question.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. Some houses in my area have been on the market for a year and a half.
I know one where the listing was reduced from $300K to $250K to $220K. It still hasn't sold.

So even if they put their home on the market what is the guarantee it will sell unless they are willing to sell it at foreclosure prices.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. A very good question for you and many more like you who've lost
their jobs through no fault of your own. What do you and your husband do for a living, if you don't mind me asking =)?
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well, maybe Chase will get the pittance we'll have when we're outside, huh?
;-)

My husband is in his 40's, with 20 years' experience in IT.

I am an author. Unfortunately, this is not a highly paid profession, ;-) so I brushed up my resume, too. I used to be a secretary.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. cash out a 401k
your 'rainy day' is here.

good luck.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Indeed. And besides,
IF the economy collapses, as many are predicting when the Bailout Bubble bursts, you might lose it depending on how you have it invested. Something to look into and think about. You may find that it's better to have it now than to risk losing it. After all, the bailouts have benefitted only the banks involved so far, that benifit comes on the backs of taxpayers now and into foreseeable future, and unemployment, despite the bailouts, is still climbing at an alarming rate. Personally, I don't see how we get out of this depression without first recovering job losses. But, then, I'm not an expert - rather a hyper-interested layman.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. In my experience, loan modification departments often run interference for legal departments
(who are proceeding with foreclosure at the same time.)

Also, if bankruptcy is at all an option, please think carefully about cashing out your 401k--these funds will be protected from your creditors if you end up in bankruptcy.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Still no job eh? Bummer!
Can you get one of those loans from your 401K and pay yourselves back with interest? That might work until a job comes through.

:hi:
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Chase is one of the worst when it comes to harrassing collection calls. n/t
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I had to laugh
The collector was lucky I wasn't on the phone; my response to the "what happens when unemployment runs out?" would have been, "Gloat much? Why don't you offer me a JOB, and then we can finally pay off the credit card?" I then would have asked him how it felt to know that he badgers and harasses people for a living.

:rofl:
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. Don't forget that they'll take income tax out of that 401k money, plus a 10% penalty.
But, if there's no other option, you gotta do what you gotta.

Good luck to you and your family.
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Tax yes. But I think there is a clause in there that you don't have to pay
the penalty if it is a hardship withdrawl, and I think it would be in this case.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Medical, Education and to avoid loosing you primary dwelling
Not pay off a dwelling. I found out the hard way. I got hit with an additional 26,000 in taxes. This was after the they withheld taxes and 10% penalty. The gross amount moved me into another tax bracket.
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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. True, but it sounds like they are about to lose their primary dwelling
If so, a hardship exemption would be the way to go.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. They couldn't pre empt the process
Would have to wait for the initial filing from the Mtg. Co. to begin the process.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. It seems as though you are being punished for doing everything the right way.
Edited on Tue Jun-30-09 02:43 PM by Joe Fields
You both, or at least one of you are skilled, you've saved money, you bought into a 401 K, your husband got a severance, and I don't know what more you could do. It is just so disheartening, when you have a skill, but are up against hundreds, sometimes thousands of other applicants..

I feel your pain and I have shared your misery in the past, and all I can offer you is to say, please hang in there, and try, try, try, not to get so discouraged that you begin having relationship problems because of your finances.
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mudplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
17. punished for doing everything the right way
If you have no children, and your window of solvency is less than three months, and you're not very confident you'll have a reasonable job by then, I'm assuming desperation about survival. My advice (from experience, unfortunately) is to:

Take everything out of the bank and stash it someplace safe (well, leave in enough to keep it open), make one trip to a casino and play a slot machine once so you can say I lost it gambling. If someone asks you how much money you have say, "I'm broke." Practice it in the mirror until you believe it yourself. If you don't, you'll soon find yourself REALLY broke. Until you find work, you're going to need that money to survive. Don't make the mistake of only considering yourself broke if you literally have $0. If you have to ask for assistance of some sort (foodstamps), assume you're broke. Because, if you tell them, "Oh, I've still got this $1500 stashed away for a rainy day," they'll say, come back when you're broke, and you'll find that when that happens and you're car breaks down you won't be able to go back to ask for assistance BECAUSE YOU'RE TOO BROKE TO GET THERE.

Find a postal drop (preferably one that doesn't use box numbers but will allow you to have mail delivered to your name at that address) and change your mailing address on all correspondence to that address. If you have a credit card that doesn't have a high balance, hang on to it for dear life. A lot of simple errands, like renting a car when you fly to a city for a job interview, can only be accomplished with a credit card. Some places will let you use a debit/credit card, some won't. For example, Netflix won't give you a membership with a debit/credit card. You can do this without a credit card, but it's a lot easier with one. Don't assume that if you default on one card the other banks will stop your cards, because they won't. They make money on your account and they won't stop your card unless you don't pay the bill.

Buy a pay-as-you-go cell phone. Only give your new number to people that you trust and that might hire you. Put an answering machine on your home phone and start screening your calls (until you turn the thing off). If you don't have anything positive to report to a collector, don't talk to one. Remember, a collector is a person who regards you as a deadbeat, a cheat, and liar. It doesn't matter what you have to say to him, or what you do (even if you mail a certified check to him immediately), that individual is assuming you're a liar, and there isn't any reason for you to be polite to him or to play fair with him. If, by some miracle, some collector calls you on your new cell, keep repeating, "What, What. I can't hear you," throw the thing away and get a new one. When you are able to settle your debts without impoverishing yourself, you can contact your debtors and make arrangements (preferable through an attorney) for repayment. Until that time, there isn't anything to be gained by having contact with them. You don't get any points for being honest, for trying your hardest, for being a decent husband or wife, for having paid your debts honestly and consistently for twenty years, for going to church regularly, for having a conscience. When you owe them money and you can't pay, they regard you as a deadbeat, which means that they regard you as a liar and a thief. And from the way they'll talk to you you'll begin to believe it. Just don't talk to them. And, remember projection: they regard you as a liar because they know they're liars and they therefore naturally assume everyone is.

Don't be in a rush to go down and have the address on you driver's license changed. If you could only find a maildrop with a box number, ask a trustworthy friend if you can list his address as your residence when you have to renew your DL.

If you have car payments, and you don't owe too much, consider paying it off. If you owe too much on it, consider selling it and buying a good used car for cash. A good ten-year-old Japanese sedan with less than 100K miles. You'll need reliable transport to find work again but you don't want to be in a situation where someone can take your car away if money gets so tight you can't make a car payment.

Buy an used RV or car-trailer combination that you find you can live in for two years without going crazy (Check craigslist in your area). You can do this for less than $10K, and for as little as $5K if money is too tight), and start looking for decent RV parks in your area (if you intend to remain in the area) that have 1)good long-term rates, 2)nice management, and 3) decent laid-back tenants (hang around and talk to some of the residents. Do they have a communal area and activities. Are the long term residents elderly. Elderly people tend to be less threatening (then, for example, a bunch of folks with pickups, motorcycles, and tatoos)and often friendlier than middle age folks. This is important as RV parks all have a character of their own and trailers aren't soundproof. Also, since your husband is in IT, they could use his expertise. The down side is you can get invited to some pretty boring dinners, but they're trying to be nice).Free internet and cable is nice, too. and some RV parks provide it. Buy a large flat screen TV (that will fit!!) for the trailer to compensate for having to live in a tin box instead of a real house. Once you're out of the house and car payments and moved into the RV, your cost of living has dropped to under $1000 a month (and if you don't like the RV park, you can move your house!). This includes rent, utilities, car insurance, gas. You might find it liberating (or maybe humiliating, or maybe both). Food costs depend on your diet requirements.

Trade your computer gear for a laptop, if you don't already have one. Don't be afraid to get rid of everything -it's just stuff. Getting new stuff once your working again will be an adventure.

Sell the house and everything that won't fit in the trailer. The less stuff you have the more roomy the trailer will seem.

Giving up an identity as an invested, middle-class citizen is a bitter pill to swallow, but if you don't discover some new stream of income soon, they're going to take everything you own, ruin your credit, and you'll be left standing on the street (or living with the in-laws) with the consolation that you played by their rules. Woopee! This way you'll only have ruined credit. It may be your best option.

Remember, it typically takes six months to find a decent job. Being in IT has probably spoiled you in that regard. If you're in the Washington/Oregon area, it may take longer. If you don't find something in a year, I'd strongly consider returning to school and learning a trade like firefighter, plumber, whatever the local college has on offer that will but you in a new or optional profession in two years or less. It will at least give you something to do while you're unemployed (the idea of job hunting as a forty-hour a week occupation for an extended period of time is not only unrealistic it's sadistic).

In the long run, if your financial situation is desperate, this path is the most responsible to both you and the people you owe money to. You'll return to financial solvency and be able to settle your debts more quickly if you guard your physical and mental health by putting yourself first.

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whyverne Donating Member (734 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. This is beautiful!
Good job mudplanet.
I printed out your answer.

This is the kind of information I've been looking for on the web without much success. Does anyone know of any sites that have more advice like mudplanet's?

I'm just starting to get my own head on straight about my own poverty problems.

You got to get into survival mode.

Don't make it into a morality play. The people you owe made a bet that you could pay them back. You made the same bet. You both lost. There's not much you can do about that right now. They did not take any money out of their own pockets to give you. It was their job to get you to sign up for debt. If you do have anybody, like friends or relatives, who did give you money out of their own pocket, pay them first.

There are a lot of people who would like to see you punished. America loves to punish. (Look at our prison population.) Don't ever feel they're right. You didn't do anything wrong. You went with the flow.

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Veruca Salt Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. If i was in that position
I know I would follow your list of advice above! It all definitely makes good common sense. I'm bookmarking this thread just in case I someday too find myself in need of a survival checklist; and in this economy one never knows. Thanks!! :hi:
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Thanks, mudplanet
We're hoping it doesn't come to this, but DH and I have to have a very serious conversation re: what the plan is if this goes on much longer. Luckily, we don't have kids. We really don't have family we could move in with. We have two cats and a dog; this precludes most apartments, due to the cost of deposits.

The only thing that gets me out of bed some mornings is the fact there are millions of us in the same boat. If those of us currently going through this ever became organized in some fashion, the IWR march on DC would look like a garden party, IMHO.

Here is what I know now: There are ten million people currently out of work. They were joined by the 400,000+ who lost their jobs last month. Unemployment will start to run out, even the extensions, and that's when stuff is going to get really desperate for a large number of people. I see no other way than an additional set of UI extensions on a federal level, unless the job market picks up substantially. You're right -- we may end up retraining in something else. It's amazing to me that people in their forties are now being put out to pasture, but it'll be interesting to watch what happens in workplaces full of those much, much younger, won't it?

IMHO, YMMV, and thanks for the advice. I hope everything is well for you and yours.
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mudplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. The most important thing to remember is
that if you have a warm, dry place to sleep, enough to eat, and someone to love and that loves you, you've got it made. As my momma said, all you're expected to do is try your hardest. No one expects you to succeed all the time.

Everything else is so unimportant by comparison.

The media and mainstream culture will try to convince you that "your credit rating is your most important asset." Why? The only thing that you really need credit for is to buy a house. Everything else is non-essential and you can do without it until you can pay for it in cash. They've so effectively brainwashed people into believing that their credit rating is their measure of worth that even progressives on this list will post that they wouldn't let a person with a bad credit rating adopt a dog? So I'm not fit to own a dog because five years ago I became disabled and could no longer pay my bills? They maintained that they still would not let a person with bad credit adopt a pet.(true story) Am I supposed to admire their empathy for animals?

What ya gonna do?

If you do become insolvent you should be aware that there are industries that have a policy of not hiring people with bad credit ratings, notably the insurance industry and the banking industry. Some large corporations outside of these industries have this policy as well. (It seems that if you fall down they've decided not only that you're not a worthwhile person but that it should be part of their job to keep you down). I guess it's arguable in some cases that a person with a bad credit history isn't suitable for some jobs in those industries. For the most part I believe it's part of a cultural dynamic whereby people with money to lend spend energy propagating the myth that debt and credit are necessary parts of life, and that if you are not part of their system you are a non-person. I remember panicking when I first realized that I was not going to be able to pay my bills and that that my credit was going to go to hell in a hand basket. Oh NOOOOOOOOOOO (use Mr. Bill's voice)!!! Then I realized that there is no debtors prison in this country, I didn't really own a lot, and there really wasn't much they could do to me outside of threaten me and harass me. It's not illegal to to guard your privacy in this country - the rich all do it. Do you think that the really rich actually allow debtors, or even the state, know where they live or what their phone # is? They don't. For the most part they accomplish this by having a corporate address or a law firm through which contact is made. If you can't afford this you can take the steps I've outlined above to protect you privacy and peace of mind.

I want to be clear here that I'm not in favor of people incurring debts that they do not intend to repay. That said, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
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Seedersandleechers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. Bravo
Mudplanet. :applause: You should write a survival handbook of sorts.
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blaze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. Very helpful and informative!
Thanks for this post Mudplanet.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
18. I can't stand these mofos and now having a democratic party p..sy footing
around with them makes me sick!
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
19. Do you have a WA State Dept of Banks or Banking Authority that
Edited on Wed Jul-01-09 05:49 AM by mnhtnbb
has control over banks in Washington?

I ask, because after our house burned down in Aug 07, our mortgage had been transferred to CitiMortgage.
It took 6 months, multiple calls, an attorney who contacted them on our behalf with no result and finally I filed a complaint with the NC Commissioner of Banks to get Citi to acknowledge the first payment made by our insurance company to reduce our interest only loan and give us a new payment. Yes, we were still required to make payments on a burned down house while we were fighting with the insurance company to pay us what we were insured for on the house so we could pay off the loan. Within a week of them getting a letter from the NC Commissioner (I was copied)I had a phone call from a Citi rep saying, "gee, we don't know why this hasn't been handled properly. We're right on it."

If you have a banking authority in your state, try contacting them to see if filing a complaint will get Chase off their a$$ and process your paperwork.

Good luck.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes, you do. Here's the link:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
28. We got a relief refi within 60 days of learning about it. n/t
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Congratulations, Lumberjack Jeff
We have Chase. They are already notorious for dragging their feet.

We qualify for the homeowner bailout by all standards, and we're still getting the runaround. It's time to get Senator Murray's office involved, and we're also going to file a complaint with the org one of the posters in the response above mentioned.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I'm uncertain how relief refi's work... can you get another bank to issue it?
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I'm not sure.
Right now, though, we're proceeding with Senator Murray's office and with the banking regulation org on the thread. If we can't get action from either of those entities, it's time to take the advice further up the thread.

Again, congratulations -- I hope the relief refi is doing a lot of good at your house.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-01-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
32. I've had Chase MasterCard since 1975 and was late just once, guess what they did?
Charged me a late fee large enough to have paid my phone bill and a balance the following month for the three days it took my payment to get to them. Fuck Chase, I'm going with the card offered by my local bank!
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