have you heard this one? mj was given drugs to keep him from maturing.

[mopinko]

i heard this from someone that i consider to be absolutely honest, and, i think, in a position to know. (had connections in a former life to show biz folks that would have known. i would tell ya more if i knew the ins and outs. but whether you believe it is not my point.) in other works, joe jackson couldn't actually castrate his son, but he could chemically castrate him.
i can't say what i think about this. i don't even know what, if anything, would do this, or was available then. but i tell ya what, i wouldn't put it past joe jackson for a minute.
:shrug: thoughts?

[NMMNG]

1. It's possible

I hear it was done to Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney* (to keep them short and cute) so why not Michael Jackson?




*My wife knew a woman who went to school with them. The woman said they got "wake up pills in the mornings, sleeping pills at night, and "short pills" in between. It's not a wonder Judy Garland ended up with the substance abuse problems she did.

[Lerkfish]

2. anything is possible, but I'm at a loss to think what chemicals would accomplish that.

[Avalux]

29. Hormones...

Endocrinologists can prescribe LHRH analogs which stop puberty from progressing. These drugs block androgen (male hormone) production. So yes, it is entirely possible. How horrible if true.

[Lerkfish]

41. thanks for the info...I had no idea.

[hlthe2b]

3. Diethylstilbestrol (DES) would be a possibility

a synthetic long acting estrogen, proposed/used? in the not distant past to chemically castrate, but highly restricted due to birth defects detected in pregnant women using to prevent miscarriage. It was for some time a valid treatment for advanced prostate cancer (and some forms of breast cancer), but taken off the market a number of years ago, I believe.

I have no idea, but he certainly seemed to have little in the way of post-puberty male attributes.

[mopinko]

11. a friend of mine is a des daughter.

i think back then they thought it was a miracle drug.
was it known to do that, do you think?

[hlthe2b]

13. Was it known to feminize a prepubescient male, you mean?

Well, theoretically long term use of any high dose form of estrogen could do so...


And, yes, prior to the mid 70s or so, the long term potential harm to daughters (and sons) whose mothers received DES while pregnant was not known and it really was considered a miracle drug. The risk for other cancer development was not known at the time. Hopefully your friend's daughter has escaped the risk. It was still considered somewhat miraculous for many years until, I think the late 90s-- for indications that excluded pregnancy.

[mopinko]

14. she's fine, but

it hangs over her head. she never misses her pap's smear, that's for sure.

[Mimosa]

54. Definitely believe it

I was close friends with a transsexual person during the 1970s. It was very easy to get doctors to provide Diethylstilbestrol during that era. It would account for Michael's continuing falsetto voice.

[defendandprotect]

4. The father is a criminal ... even if this weren't true . ..

[nomaco-10]

7. Here's one of my posts from a recent thread, (paraphrasing)...

The dysfunction began with Joseph Sr. He was a bully and a tyrant that beat the shit out of Michael and his brothers and sisters, and worse,(if you believe the account of sister LaToya in her book), that damaged mj during his formative years.

It's my arm chair psychological theory, that Michael was a sensitive child that was severely impacted by the abuse of his father upon the family and the generational mindset of his mother's (turn a blind eye mentality) that had a lifelong effect on his adult life.

It's really sad really. It really

[defendandprotect]

17. Agree with you completely . . .

And, I've read a fair amount about the father . . . not everything . . .
I think the daughter finally withdrew the charges so it's obvious that he's
still a threat to them -- but I do think the sexual abuse is also true.

Michael was a beautiful, intelligent child - and a musical genius, IMO.
I don't know that pedophiles need other motives, but it also seems clear that
while the father wanted the kids to succeed for the money, he may have also
been jealous of their talents and ability to perform.
And he seemed to attack Michael mentally, physically and sexually.
Perhaps others of the children, as well.

I would generally agree that it is the Mother who is responsible for the safety
of the children, but that doesn't necessarily happen in a male-dominated society.

Yesterday, I happened to stop at Holmdel Park on the way home from the shore.
It's a big park and in one area near a lake they have an historical farm with
large barn structures and open areas for the sheep to play about and graze.

The parking lot was full but everyone was off doing enjoying themselves.
As I came down the first row of parking, there was a father with his son turned
upside down really beating his bottom and I slowed down to honk my horn.
Before I could do that, he took the child -- either a small 2 year old, or just
under 2 years -- and slamed his bottom down on the car trunk a number of times.
Very viciously. The mother was standing nearby with a stroller.
I did honk my horn a few times and she turned to look at me as I moved my hands
indicating that had to be stopped. She looked very frightened.

The really odd thing was that the child wasn't screaming. Almost as though he
knew if he did the beating would get worse.

I parked nearby and eventually she came to the area where I was with the child in
the stroller, showing him the sheep. I don't know if the father went somewhere to
cool down or what. And I wondered if I should try to go talk with her. I didn't.
And, I'm still worried about that now.

It's tragic and I'm sure it was tragedy for the Jackson children.

However the Mother has or has not been dealing with this is also tragic.

Sad . . .

[mopinko]

26. childbeaters are wifebeaters are childbeaters are

yeah. i hate when these big parent from hell conversations go on here, and people think that the mom is as culpable as the beater. those people do not get it. at all. it's a tight web of shit.

[defendandprotect]

38. I think Nature intended that women be the protectors of children . . .

however, patriarchy isn't much on nature --

and has long been violent with women and too often sexually abusive of women

and children.

[mopinko]

47. well, i don't have that warm fuzzy view of nature.

nature "meant" many offspring to feed other species, and to be thrown to the winds and seas.
evolution "meant" for human children to be raised by a tribe. those children were fed by killing things, and taking other tribes territories in wars. they were protected by skilled warriors. both love and violence are central to human nature.
but we are at a point in human history where violence is loosing out to cooperation as the way to move forward. it is becoming more unacceptable every day. perhaps that is mj's final gift to us. an unrelenting example of a gift thrown away by violence and greed.

[defendandprotect]

53. Violence is not central to human nature . . . but males are constantly told that --

That's a rather brutal and reveal view you have of Nature --

Nor do you have to "kill things"/animals to survie --

If only violence were losing out -- violence overcomes all opposiiton.

I think the old movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still" gives the perfect solution --

a way to mechanically strike those who raise the first sword/gun.

[mopinko]

55. well, it is possible to live without killing, but

it is the rare being that does so. i do not say this to excuse violence, but because we can do nothing about it if we do not meet it honestly. how many of nature's creatures do not kill to live?
violence, murder, war, these are the core of the human animal. yes, they are tempered with love, with cooperation, with civilization, with culture, with wisdom. but to pretend that it has not been our tool, has not been central to our evolution, is folly.
and not only males kill. ask any "farm wife."

[defendandprotect]

56. Sadly, people do what they're taught to do --

From abuse of animals -- which is still a good predictor, i.e., George Bush --
would naturally come the killing of animals.

Though the first killings of animals may not have been for food, the violent
display by those who did it -- and continued to do it -- would have convinced
others that it was wise to follow along.

Kind of like religious Crusades introducing the sword with the cross.
Violence and intimidation overcomes common sense.

Well, I never heard of a cow killing anyone -- maybe a fly?

But comparing humans to lions and tigers and snakes, I think overaims because
we can just as easily be herbivores.

Violence cannot be "tempered with love" unless you believe in a warrior "god" --
who loves you but will let you burn in hell? I'm sure you're familiar with
Richard Carlin?

Yes . . . violence has been the tool of patriarchy and organized patriarchal
religion. But it has not been central to our evolution . . . it's been central
to our suicide.

Patriarchy's war on nature -- basically a war on ourselves -- is suicidal.
Patriarchy's war on the majority gender on the planet -- females -- is suicidal.

[mopinko]

62. never heard of richard carlin

but your image of human nature seems to be a leftover from the days when it was thought that an infant was a tabula rasa, and all behavior was learned. personally i think this is one of the stupidest ideas to ever make it past the "me and the guys at the bar were thinking, and..." stage. humans are complex animals, with complex behavioral controls, and with a large amount of individuality, a large ability to learn, but at the center, we are instinctual animals.

and there is no god.

if you are open to a real examination of human behavior, read http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Animal-Science-Evolutionary-Psychology/dp/0679763996

it will change the way you see human nature. and help you make better sense of it.

[defendandprotect]

64. Of course, that's GEORGE Carlin . . .

my apologies ...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/24/george_carlin_1937_2008_legendary_comedian

Thanks for making clear that your debate will be based on personal insult --

However . . . Eve still stands holding the Apple . . .

Just reverse the story of the Garden of Eden and you'll find that it was about the

spilling of blood - not the eating of an apple.

Again, humans do not require the killing of animals to survive.

In fact, many of our health problems are related to animal eating.

Nor is violence a natural part of our lives -- male nor female.


AND . . . I took a quick look at your link --

Unfortunately, our species is the only one where the male gender has tried to wipe

out the majority gender -- the female.

Find another like it -- remember . . . genocide against it's own species.

[mopinko]

65. no insult was intended

but i just don't agree with much of what you say. there is no god. there was no eve. and genocide? not sure any other species has reached the point where they are capable of genocide. but many species have very different gender roles than humans.

seriously, no insult intended, but this conversation can't go anywhere.
peace

[defendandprotect]

66. Actually, if you re-read my post . . .

you'll see that I was agreeing with George Carlin's view of an abusive "god" --
and agree -- "no god."

There is patriarchal myth however -- remember that Book called the Babble which
continues to circulate!

And if you reverse the myth, you understand that the "Tree of Life" would have
more to do with the killing and eating of animal-life than it would have to do
with anyone being forbidden to eat an APPLE!

What does make sense is what we see -- the eating of animals and the spilling of
their blood is making us all ill - physically and spiritually.

Only our species has declared war on the majority gender -- females.


but your image of human nature seems to be a leftover from the days when it was thought that an infant was a tabula rasa, and all behavior was learned. personally i think this is one of the stupidest ideas to ever make it past the "me and the guys at the bar were thinking, and..." stage. humans are complex animals, with complex behavioral controls, and with a large amount of individuality, a large ability to learn, but at the center, we are instinctual animals.

[Raine]

60. Michael said in an interview that his father would be beating him and his mother

would be sceaming "stop it, stop it, you're going to kill him!" Michael didn't say anything further about how his father responded to his mother's pleas. I suppose physically his mother was incapable of being able to stop Joe, maybe he beat her too. :-(

[mzteris]

5. i always wondered if he had been

"castrated" - because of the pure quality of his voice.

People used to do that many many decades ago - they called them castrati.

[mopinko]

6. yes they did.

i read anne rice's book about the castrati in about 2 sittings. something out of the long, long distant past, i thought.

[girl gone mad]

19. Here is a recording of the last castrato.

Doesn't sound anything like MJ, imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-S3uoeTXg

[mzteris]

20. well, let's see -

100 years ago, singing opera -

of course it doesn't sound anything like MJ.

Each castrati still had their own voice.

[girl gone mad]

39. Jackson used falsetto..

(false soprano) there is a crossover in range, but his style is pure bel canto. Barry Gibbs is another bel canto falsetto singer with an even higher range than Jackson.

Besides, there is ample evidence that Jackson went through puberty. His acne troubles, growth spurt, facial hair, and adam's apple are all classic signs. His speaking voice did change, though I've noticed from seeing old interviews over the last few days that he often chose to speak in falsetto. You can hear his normal voice in some earlier interviews and even on the Simpson's episode he recorded.

[mopinko]

35. bears some resemblance, in mine

what with the recording technique, the material and all, i think there is a strong resemblance.

[girl gone mad]

40. I'm a pianist, not a singer..

so I apologize if I can't really explain the differences in range and technique very well. Instead, I'll offer this recording of the closest we have in modern times to a real castrato.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtqGpgdD_6k&feature=related

Jimmy Scott never went through puberty because of a hereditary condition (iirc) and he possesses the full range and technical abilities of il castrati, though he is a jazz singer.

[mopinko]

45. well, i have no musical ability or training AT ALL.

i am not even a very good listener. but there is something in those voices that seems similar to me. something girlish that is in mj's ballads. and maybe the wasn't completely "castrated", so he isn't a pure version.

i dunno. the poor thing. that's all i can say. the poor thing.

[MzNov]

8. I heard and I don't remember where

that his father gave him massive amounts of female hormones when he was young.

You know how these rumors go around, so who knows?? :shrug:

[hedgehog]

9. It's certainly plausible - if the money is there you can get almost

any drug you want. If it is true, expect some leaks from the Coroner's office.

[mopinko]

12. boy, i wonder if

the sonuvabitch could still be punished.

[defendandprotect]

18. I was just thinking that if any of that were true, father would have needed

some help from a medical professional to do it?

[mopinko]

24. by the time he started worry about his voice, they

would have already been rich. i think things were a little faster and looser about those kind of things back then. so, that doesn't seem like a big hurdle.

[ecstatic]

22. Could they really detect something administered that long ago?

:shrug:

[mopinko]

33. detect the drug, no. identify the damage, i would bet.

not so much from other cases of this particular cause, but certainly there are plenty of naturally occurring cases. who knows what other tell tale signs there might be.

[Sebastian Doyle]

10. The stories of old Joe putting Michael on female hormones have been around for years

Seems entirely plausible given how little his voice changed from a child to teenager even into adulthood.

And if Michael ever had facial hair, I never saw a picture of it.

[Maru Kitteh]

16. I've seen one of him w/some facial hair, but it did seem very sparse

Here's one:



others are available @ teh googles and interwebs

[Iggo]

15. Jeez.

The fun never ends!:rofl:

[mopinko]

27. yeah, i know

i just heard this from an impeccable source. and i swear this is only my second and last mj thread. and i wondered just how possible it was. the du braintrust is the best.

[ecstatic]

21. Maybe. Don't all his brothers have deep voices?

All the siblings have that weird, slow way of speaking... but Michael's voice was very high pitched even as an adult and he never really seemed sexual (more asexual). And since Joe Jackson was bringing up his new record label a day or two after Michael's death, I wouldn't put it past him.

[HughMoran]

23. This sort of rumor has been around for years

Heck, how can you not wonder how he kept a boys voice, knowing that he was so obsessive about his career.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. He was definitely screwed with as a kid

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. MJ never really had a chance. His childhood was like a recipe for how to make sure a kid grows up and is screwed up.

It's all pretty damn sad.

[mopinko]

31. sad song

having no mj in a 21st century format, so i bought "the ultimate collection". it has the theme from free willy 2, which i had never heard. it's called "childhood", and it is really, really sad.
the album was put together in 04. gotta figure he had some say in what his ultimate was. and he picks this song? found that just really incredible.

[bdamomma]

44. it is pretty sad.

He did alot of good in his life, he was just misunderstood. His father screwed him up.

[rainbow4321]

46. Someone commented on that, no childhood

And now, he won't even get to grow old.
My sis and I are both in our mid to late 40's and we both had the same thought...for those of us in this age range there has never NOT been Michael Jackson. From the 1970's variety shows appearances to the Jackson cartoon show thru our college years (the 1980's) and every stage in our lives after that ..til now.
I hope it all goes well today and everyone stays safe. Especially any gathering crowds outside.

[JitterbugPerfume]

28. I heard it years ago

an I really do think Joe Jackson is capable of such a sin . I have heard several people on TV say that he was assexual

Why did they take pictures of his penis during his trial? Evidence of what?

[mopinko]

32. that always seemed pretty odd to me, too.

could be this. maybe he really was a child about those things.

[TorchTheWitch]

37. identifying markings

apparently he has identifying markings (a dark patch of skin or something like that) on his genitals which the accuser described and drew pictures of in order to prove he had intimate knowledge of MJ's nether region. This was all over the news at the time.

The markings on MJ's gentitals probably had something to do with his skin disease.

[Life Long Dem]

30. It's possible is right.

A big one I remember was MJ freezing himself to later be thawed and treated.

[Lerkfish]

42. IIRC, actually, it was a hyperbaric chamber, not a cryogenic chamber

and he fired his publicist afterwards... the publicist still swore he slept in the hyperbaric chamber, and MJ claimed he posed in one once for a picture and the publicist was lying.
at least, that's what I recall.

[magellan]

48. The hyperbaric chamber was part of the Michael Jackson Burns Unit

...at the Brotman Medical Center in Culver City, CA, where MJ received treatment for the burns he received while filming the Pepsi commercial in 1984. He sued PepsiCo and they settled out of court for $1.5M. MJ donated the money to Brotman and they built the burns unit, filling it with the latest technology, including the hyperbaric chamber he was photographed in.

[Avalux]

34. Would explain why his kids are his - biologically.

He may not have had the sperm; underdeveloped sex organs. There are drugs that block androgen and stop puberty so it's entirely possible.

[jobycom]

36. Old, old rumor. One of many. Originally had heavy racist overtones

at least when I heard it. It was used by people who hated Jackson because he was black to prove that he was a freak, rather than a talent, since black men couldn't be talented. The Reagan Era. It was a bad nightmare.

[Lerkfish]

43. um, well, pointing out MJ's freaky nature is not necessarily racially motivated

His life and behaviour were definitely not normal.

[jobycom]

50. His lfe and behavior were made to seem freakish by a media who knew people wanted to see it that way

By all accounts of people who knew him, he was no more eccentric than the average rich and famous person. But the media took everything that seemed odd and blew it into a defining absurdity. And a lot of that was racism. Not everyone now who thinks he was a freak is motivated by racism, but during the early 80s that was why so many rumors caught on.

Michael Jackson proved a lot of racist theories wrong. He was suave, sophisticated, intelligent, and his talent didn't rely on white people. He attracted pretty white girls, and white boys wanted to be him. No other African American had ever had that effect on society before. He didn't seem like the degenerate image white America had created of African Americans. Looking at him made even the most racist person see that color didn't matter. So they had to turn him into a freak. If he was a freak, chemically altered to keep his boyish voice and charms, they could dismiss him. Add to that a few allegations of homosexuality--notice most stars aren't destroyed by sleeping with underage women--and the destruction was complete.

It was a different era, thankfully, but a lot of what we think about him came from that era. We've just lost the context.

[LisaL]

51. I don't think he much resembled African-American toward the end.

Not just his skin color, but his features as well, appear to be very different from his childhood. I don't think there was much left of what he looked like as a child or a teenager.

[jobycom]

52. How is that supposed to be? Could you draw a picture of what an African American is supposed to

look like, so we can judge people not on their heritage or life experiences but on their facial features and skin tone?

He had Vitiligo which destroyed his skin color--you can see it in early pictures of him, so don't try to claim it was a cover story. He had his nose reconstructed when he was young because it was shattered in an accident and he couldn't sing until several surgeries later. He had horrific burns on the back of his scalp which caused repeated surgeries to his face. He had lupus, a potentially fatal illness, over half his life, and you can see in some pictures where he's not wearing makeup the telltale red butterfly pattern across his face. So he wore makeup. For that matter, even the white glove was to hide a bad scar on his thumb--you can see it in some pictures, too.

As for why his nose got pointy and the cleft in his chin got freakish later in his life, I don't know. For all I know they too were related to some of his injuries. With the burns on the back of his head he probably couldn't have the normal face lift most celebrities get. Maybe they were the result of plastic surgery gone bad--he wouldn't be the first star to have bad results from routine procedures. Or maybe there were other reasons we don't know about.

Either way, the early stories about him being castrated--physically or chemically--and everything else made to make him look like a freak were motivated in part by the need to bring him back down to Earth and put him in his place. Pop over to the Lounge and see how many hate threads there are about bands or singers or artists--that's just one of the less admirable traits of humans. And there was a lot of racism in those early rumors.

[stevietheman]

58. So we're not supposed to see the obvious? Wow. n/t

n/t

[LisaL]

49. I hope not.

Although it does seem they wanted him to be younger than he was. Wasn't he told to pretend he was 8 years old when he was actually 10?

[chatnoir]

57. The first thing I thought of

after reading the OP was Liza Minelli's comment:

"I'm sure when the autopsy comes, all hell's going to break loose. So, thank God we're celebrating him now."

[Raine]

59. If this is true it would mean MJ never molested

anyone and maybe we wouldn't have to hear those BS charges aganist him anymore.

[LisaL]

61. Some of you amaze me to no end.

How would it mean MJ couldn't have molested anyone is beyond my understanding, considering as to what he was accused of doing.

[gkhouston]

63. You must be an amazing moonwalker. Your OP got caught in a time-warp and arrived 2 days late. n/t