KUCINICH ROCKS ON SINGLE-PAYER! Pwns MD who claimed Canadian health care was worse than the US's.

[Karmadillo]

I saw this article at Metafilter (always worth a look and, for full disclosure, I took the subject line starting with "Pwns" directly from the posting). Kucinich's questioning is simply devastating. No wonder the corporate media tries to limit discussion of single-payer.

You can view the webcast at http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/2009/06/examining-the-single-payer-hea.shtml. Kucinich starts at 1:21:30.

The transcript comes from http://www.pnhp.org/blog/2009/06/10/house-help-committee-hearing-on-single-payer/

Examining the Single Payer Health Care Option
Health, Employment, Labor, and Pensions Subcommittee Hearing
U.S. House of Representatives
June 10, 2009

<edit>

David Gratzer, M.D.:

Critics of the American system note that it fails to provide universal coverage to its citizens. But Canada’s single-payer system also denies care; instead of denying insurance coverage, Canada’s public insurance plans simply limit the supply of costly medications and capital-intensive procedures.

These challenges appear in different forms across the single-payer world. Wait times, rationed care and inefficient public management is inevitable in single-payer systems because they all face the same health-care demands as the American system.

***

During the questioning by committee members:

Rep. Dennis Kucinich: Dr. Gratzer, you’ve tried to make the case for rationing in Canada - worse than it is in the U.S. Do you know what Statistics Canada - the analogue to the U.S. Census - says the median wait time is across Canada for elective surgery?

Dr. David Gratzer: Why don’t you inform us,sir?

Kucinich: It’s four weeks. And what does Statistics Canada say the median wait time for diagnostic imaging like MRIs is?

Gratzer: I could tell you the Ontario government recently looked at that for…

Kucinich: It’s three weeks.

Gratzer: … for cancers, was six months.

Kucinich: It’s three weeks. How many uninsured are there in Canada?

Gratzer: Probably relatively few.

Kucinich: That’s right, none or very few. How many medical bankruptcies are there in Canada?

Gratzer: Depends on how you define medical bank..

Kucinich: None or very few. How many insured Americans go without needed care due to high cost of health care which is due to health insurance companies?

Gratzer: (Pause) Am I allowed to answer, or are we just going to continue to…

Kucinich: If you have an answer, you can answer. But if you don’t, I’ll answer. What’s your answer?

Gratzer: Go for it, sir.

Kucinich: What’s your answer?

Gratzer: Why don’t you answer your question, sir?

Kucinich: What’s your answer?

Gratzer: My answer…

Kucinich: How many insured Americans go without needed care due to the high cost of health care which is due to health insurance companies?

Gratzer: (Silence)

Kucinich: The witness isn’t responding.

Gratzer: The witness is delighted to speak further on those statistics and other statistics, but you keep cutting me off, sir.

Kucinich: You respond, if you have an answer. You didn’t give an answer to the other one.

Gratzer: I don’t want to be led down a garden path. If you’d like to ask me a question, I’d be…

Kucinich: You’ve shown a garden here to members of this committee and to the audience. There’s another side to this picture you don’t seem to be aware of even though you want to be an expert on Canada. Can you provide us with an answer on this one about America?

Gratzer: My position is respectable, and I dislike your comment, sir.

Kucinich: Do you have an answer? How many insured Americans, insured, go without needed care due to high costs of health care due to health insurance companies?

Gratzer: (Silence)

Kucinich: He has no answer. Well what the answer is is that it’s one out of every four. So we’re trying to make a case here that somehow Canada is in a mess, but we’re not focusing on the fact that in the United States there are people who aren’t getting needed care, and this gentleman has expected us to believe that rationing is worse in Canada. I don’t know how we can buy that. Now if single payer is so bad, maybe the gentleman - the doctor - can explain to us why sixty percent of U.S. doctors want it according to the peer-reviewed Annals of Internal Medicine, April, 2008.

(off camera voice): Are you going to let him answer this one?

Kucinich: He can answer it, if he can answer it.

Gratzer: I would suggest that many physicians in the United States are unsatisfied with their system, and rightly so. I would suggest that many physicians are looking for reform, and rightly so. But I would suggest that many physicians are unaware of what really goes on single payer systems, perhaps illustrated well by some of the comments that you’ve already made…

http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/2009/06/examining-the-single-payer-hea.shtml

[redqueen]

1. Gratzer: My position is respectable...

Oh I do strongly disagree. Very strongly.

[sasquatch]

37. Hey when he's under the desk of Health Care Industry execs, they say it is

;)

[DaLittle Kitty]

51. K&R! Respectable IF You Arte An Insurance Company Executive! Nice Job Dennis!

:)

[kjackson227]

2. Smack Down! Go Dennis!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. Kucinich shows the spineless, bought-off Democrats how it's done

See, THAT'S what you do with corporate shills. You poke holes in their arguments. You don't ask them for money.

[Enthusiast]

16. Kucinich is one of those American

heros the right always cites but have yet to produce.

[Grinchie]

76. Kucinich 2012!

I hereby commit my support to Dennis Kucinich in 2012.

Obama can go work for Monsanto.

[dionysus]

99. let us know when you start campaigning against obama on here, it should be quite a show...

:rofl:

[NJCher]

61. and one deals with r-w shills

by not letting them do a voice drown-out. I watched the clip and noted several very good communication techniques on the part of DK, including not letting him spew out his points using sheer volume as a tactic.

Gratzer was trying to eat up Kucinich's five minutes by stalling, which is why Kucinich made his points quickly if Gratzer didn't answer promptly. When Gratzer displayed his imperiousness, Kucinich got him again by making him look like the pompous little prick that he is. Gratzer's body language--crossing his arms and twirling his pen--showed that Kucinich was getting to him. And then Gratzer assumed a sullen expression.

Very poor tactics. One would think the Manhattan Institute would train their shills better.

One of the best tactics Kucinich used was when he started his questioning off by framing the issue of rationing. He reminded everyone that rationing is not a bad thing by drawing its comparison to WWII. Bravo Dennis!!!

And finally, I kind of liked the droll way he dealt with Gratzer. It was kind of like Anthony Hopkins chattering in his cell.

I must say, DK ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti. :evilgrin:


Cher

[NorthCarolina]

102. They aren't spinless, they're just on the side of Private Insurance

but prefer the quiet "No" vote to openly advocating on behalf of their Corporate benefactors. Reps like Kucinich and Sanders actually CARE about their constituents, and will fight in their best interests, the others, not so much. Lets not confuse legislators "silence" as being spineless, rather, they are NOT ON YOUR SIDE and simply prefer not to publicly announce that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

110. That's why I added "bought off"

:-)

[MindMatter]

113. That's an important point. "Spineless" gives them way too much credit

In fact, the Evan Bayhs of the world are not spineless at all. The are simply working for the other side.

[mod mom]

4. If only our party would have more Kucinichs! Working for the people w the truth behind him!

[Kingofalldems]

5. IBTDKB

In before the disruptor Kucinich basher(s).

[rucky]

25. Whoever bashes that exchange...

will get a smackdown of their own.

[Subdivisions]

6. K&R for Dennis. Off to the Greatest Page with ye! n/t

[backscatter712]

7. PWNED!!! WAY TO DRINK HIS MILKSHAKE!!!

Awesome job, Kucinich!!!

:yourock:

[armyowalgreens]

34. I go waaaaaaaaaaay over there into your milkshake... I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE

I DRINK IT UP!!!

[backscatter712]

45. SSSSSSSSSSSSLURP!!!!!! n/t

[Echo In Light]

8. Again, the guy kicks big heaps o ass forty different ways. K&R

[Demoiselle]

9. WOW! Go Dennis! It's lovely to hear somebody really taking them on. (eom)

[suzie]

63. Yeah, "taking them on", making snippy comments during

Congressional hearings is such an effective way of producing change.

[mdmc]

87. Show me another way

perhaps, take single payer off the table? :shrug:

[LiberalAndProud]

123. He is saying what needs to be said.

I'm sure he'd be more effective if he'd just sit down and shut up. :sarcasm:

[harun]

10. Epic PWNED

[gratuitous]

11. "I don't want to be led down a garden path"

Translation: I don't have any statistics, reports, or facts to back up my baseless assertions, and it appears that you came loaded for bear. If I answer, it will almost certainly be factually wrong and you will wallop me. And I will deserve it.

[Oregone]

12. When people look at the stats and logic, its hard to imagine anyone would want to keep this ultra...

right-wing, free-market based shit system.

[Grinchie]

77. Stats and Logic are the Mortal Enemy of the Staus Quo

Yet we see it daily with the Obama regime..

/sigh

[kenfrequed]

13. Go Kucinich!

We need a few more like him to keep the ball rolling.

[LWolf]

14. The best Democrat standing does it again.

THAT'S leadership. THAT'S how to fight for the people of our nation.

[TrogL]

15. The only limitations to Canadian health care are...

...if you are on a private and supplemental health care package such as Blue Cross that covers prescription drugs you get the generic version.

If you show up in the emergency room with a booboo on your elbow the same time as two car crashes and a heart attack, you may as well hit the pop and snack machines and pick a comfy chair 'cause you're gonna be there awhile. A nurse, however, will check your pulse, temperature and blood pressure every half-hour whether you like it or not.

If you show up at your doctor's office on the day he does appointments lacking one, he will squeeze you in when he feels like it, not you.

If you don't have supplemental health insurance and avail yourself of a service (such as ambulance) you're going to have to pay full price - $CAN 149.00. And if you don't like the crappy looking sling they give you, you can buy a really nice one at the drug store.

[slipslidingaway]

17. Now if Canada would just double the per capita spending for

health care then they could have the same system we have in the US.

:evilgrin:

[HelenWheels]

92. Ambulance in our town

has a base price of $500. And that's before any treatment is done.

[bahrbearian]

18. Kucinich , ROFLAO,, far left zealot wackadoodle leprechaun, who flys in UFOs

:sarcasm: He is the Man.

[L0oniX]

19. Oh for fucks sake ...why is Canada always the example? Why not France or Sweden or the UK ???

:wtf: ...hey get a fucking clue! BTW ...how is the health care system in Guantanamo?

[Chisox08]

21. Because Canada is closer

and it's not "European". For some reason some Americans are scared of doing something the Europeans are doing.

[L0oniX]

22. They pick Canada because it has more problems than the other systems.

[Chisox08]

24. Even with their problems it is still a hell of a lot better than ours

[wolfgangmo]

30. Canada has more problems?

Defined how?

I am not saying they do but they have extraordinary high costs because they are a HUGE spread out country with 1/10th our population. Canada health care will pay to fly you to a treatment if one does not exist in your area because you live so far in the backwoods that roads don't even go where you are. They take care of their citizens. We shit on them.

[Hugabear]

71. That is a right-wing smear

And it's not true.

[L0oniX]

94. So you think other countries like the UK, France, Sweden, Germany, ect have more problems...

than the Canadian system? Just what country to you think has the best single payer health care then?

[sasquatch]

38. That's because of the battle of Culloden

[Selatius]

65. Probably because France has an even better system than Canada's. France is also single-payer. nt

[NewJeffCT]

80. According to the movie "Sicko"

Canada was the only single-payer nation that (sometimes) had longer waits for health care than the US. There was a survey cited in the movie of the US vs single-payer countries and Canada was the only one that had longer wait times to see a doctor than the US.

[L0oniX]

95. Like I've said ...they use the Canadian system to attack because it's not as good as the others.

We know what their goal is and they will use the worst example to make their bull shit point.

[RaleighNCDUer]

100. Everybody knows you can just step across the border and check it

out for yourself. Other countries have excellent single-payer, but if you want to posit an example you choose one that is easily verifiable, close to home, with no language barrier.

[flvegan]

20. Way to kick some ass, Dennis. I love a Dem with a spine!

[BreweryYardRat]

23. Well done, Dennis!

*applause*

[FiveGoodMen]

26. DK is the guy we should have elected.

[Individualist]

56. How different things would have been

:sigh:

[suzie]

64. Yeah, instead of the legislation that has been passed so far, we'd

have seen none.

But Dennis K. would be there talking a great line and whining because no one did what he ordered them to.

[Individualist]

66. Damn the DLC!

[Grinchie]

78. You got that right.

No more "Give Obama time BS" time to look ahead and set the foundation to Dennis or dean, or both.

[Hissyspit]

27. DU VIDEO here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x334348

[ChickMagic]

28. A doctor I work with closely has gone to Congress against single payer

He says that the VA is single payer and it's a comoplete screw up. I don't know how to answer that because it does seem to be screwed up. My Dad uses the VA and he has told horror stories. I want single payer, but I just don't know how to answer that claim.

[wolfgangmo]

32. Here's how to answer it.

The US (and especially the GOP) does not value our veterans. And so they underfund the VA bigtime. THe US spends more than twice what any other country on the planet pays (per person) for health care. Imagine if we put all that money into an efficient single payer system like other countries do. We could have the cadillac/mercedes of health systems in the world. And we wouldn't spend 1 thin dime more to do it.

Sure Canada has a higher tax rate but if you compare how much money Canadians keep after taxes and all expenses to what American's keep after taxes and all expenses it is virtually identical. AND THEY COVER EVERYONE. AND NO ONE GOES BANKRUPT. AND PARENTS NEVER HAVE TO DECIDE BETWEEN LITTLE SUZY AND THEIR HOUSE. AND RETIRED FOLKS NEVER HAVE TO DO WITHOUT CARE OR MEDICATIONS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD. AND THERE VETERANS GET EXCELLENT CARE.

That's how you answer it.

Snort.

[ChickMagic]

105. Thanks!

I'm meeting with him this afternoon and it's bound to come up again.

[rucky]

41. Maybe he should propose getting rid of the VA program...

Let us know how that works out for him.

[DollyM]

46. I would be happy to see VA go . . .

It is substandard care from our experience. Our VA hospital surgery unit was shut down last year due to a high number of deaths and violations in standards. One doctor there was found to have lost his license in another state but VA hired him! In contrast, we were able to get medical cards (medicaid) for a while and that was great medical care bcause we could go to any Doctor we wanted that accepted the card (and most do) and get most any prescription filled. That is the system we need.

[Grinchie]

82. I am eligible for VA health "Benefits"

Unfortunately, my father was a teaching doctor and I know what good hospitals look like, and the VA doesn't even come close. I walked in once, took a look at the run down, filthy walls, sick looking people running the place, and I turned around and never looked back.


Is anyone old enough to remember the huge VA hospital that was leveled in the Sylmar quake back in 1971? Three story, unreinforced masonry structure full of patients, flattened like a pancake, killing 49 patients.

[ChickMagic]

106. I think he would if he could get away with it

I think it's based on the fact that he hates having to
go over there to read films.

[Techn0Girl]

48. A doctor I work with closely has gone to Congress against single payer

>He says that the VA is single payer and it's a complete
screw up. I don't know how to 
>answer that because it does seem to be screwed up. My Dad
uses the VA and he has 
>told horror stories. I want single payer, but I just don't
know how to answer that claim

I'll tell you how to answer that question.
I served our country in the U.S. Army a couple decades ago as
an Operating Room Technician and Field Medic for 8 years in a
Combat Field Hospital.  During that time I was exposed to
blood many times and in fact had two needle sticks.

20 years later I was diagnosed with Hepatitis C , deadly if
left untreated, after complaining for years of increasing
tiredness and mental fuzziness.  Apparently I received the
virus during military service because I had no other risk
factors.  Treatment for Hepatitis C can easily run over 60
thousand dollars (36 thou in meds alone) and has only a 46%
overall rate of being able to be cured (i.e. forever clear of
the virus).  Treatment involves (for my type of virus) a year
of Chemo.

I was diagnosed 2 weeks into a new job that had new health
insurance.  Guess what ?  The new insurance said it was a
pre-existing condition.  They didn't want to treat me. 
Furthermore, they removed me from my short and long term
disability insurances.  I was now un-insurable for such
things.  The only choice they left me was to get sicker, go on
Social security disability and eventually die, most likely a
few years after a Medicaid paid-for Liver transplant some time
down the road.  

So I went to the V.A.  And they were somewhat of a horror at
times, yes.  I caught them screwing up on my treatment plan
more then once.  But I made myself informed.  I was pro-active
about my treatment.  And I went through a year of Chemo and it
was hellish and guess what?

I'm cured.

I'm cured and healthier then I've ever been in years.  I feel
fricking fantastic!  :)  And instead of getting sicker and
being a burden on society and everyone around me I have
another 15 years of work in me - and I'm looking forward to
it!

So yes, The V.A. (Universal coverage, single payer, whatever
you want to call it) was annoying, sometimes it was horrible,
the practitioner maybe weren't the best.  But I am alive and
healthy today because of them!  And the only other choice this
country (God help it's soul) and the Big Businesses that
appear to run it gave me was to get sick and die - because I
wasn't profitable enough.

So you print out this letter and you give it to your fragging
Doctor at his country club or by his pool and you tell him I
would be sick and dying today if his Congressional testimony
was all I had going for me.

That's how to answer him.
It may be annoying - it may be awful at times - but I'm alive
because of it.

[yodermon]

75. awesome first post, welcome to DU!!

[mdmc]

88. welcome to DU!

:toast:

[stlsaxman]

90. Welcome to DU!!!

Excellent first post! looking forward to your continued participation...

:hi:

[ChickMagic]

108. Oh my God! Thank goodness you are okay!

I will tell him this. I'll print it out and hand it to him at our meeting this
afternoon. You know, this guy gives lectures - actual accredited lectures - to
medical students on how to make money. Lots of money. I'm well aware of where
his priorities lie.

Welcome to DU and thank you for your service! :hug:

[Techn0Girl]

121. You're every Welcome.

Thank you for handing it to him and thank you for your sentiments regarding the people who served.

Thing is, I'm under no illusions that his reading this will change any of his perceptions. The older I get, I become more convinced that people can be divided into two types. Those who care about their fellow men and woman, and those who have no conscious, no real soul. I don't think the soulless ones can ever be convinced that caring for each other , be it with health care , social security or whatever, could possibly be a good idea. I think it's time to leave such people behind. I'd like to think that such people are the past and the majority of the sentiments we hear in DU are our our future.

Time will tell.

Give him the hard copy. Let me know if it changes anything.

[chknltl]

67. This vet would be without coverage if it weren't for the VA

I am happy to report that in my case the services I've received at the VA Center at American Lake has been nothing but stellar!

[Grinchie]

79. One of our friend contracted C. Diff while visiting her ill father in a VA Hospital

The real virulent form of CDIFF that has just appeared in the past few years.. She was ill for 2 years until they used experimental Monoclonal Antibodies from Canada.. of all places.

Believe me, you wouldn't wish CDIFF on your worst enemy, but I would happily laugh at Michael Taylor getting it.. tee hee.

[RaleighNCDUer]

101. VA is NOT single-payer. It is the healthcare PROVIDER.

With single-payer you go to the doctors you want, the hospitals you need to go to and the single-payer system takes care of the paperwork.

Actually, under a single-payer system the VA would become redundant - their facilities could be PRIVATIZED, no longer dependent on congressional funding. Whether the physicians would remain with the government or go private would be their choice, I reckon. Vets would no longer be required to go to VA facilities - they go anywhere they want and the single-payer system takes care of the billing.

[ChickMagic]

109. That's a very good point

And it's scary that this doc is informing congress.

[me b zola]

29. Thank you Congressman Kucinich

It means a lot that you and Senator Sanders are on our side.

[armyowalgreens]

31. SMACKDOWN.

[G_j]

33. K&R

[treestar]

35. Wow, that was good!

That the doctor did not know the statistic is very telling. He could admit to it and still maintain his position, but he was not willing to.

[frylock]

36. this transcript doesn't do justice to the beatdown DK administers to this smug piece of shit..

the esteemed dr gratzer is a fucking arrogant asshole, and DK thoroughly destroys him.

[sasquatch]

39. As Bill Hicks would say:(Gratzer is)Suckin' Satan's pecker

It's only your dignity Gratzer, suck it!

[pleah]

40. K&R

[fascisthunter]

42. for these upper crust idiots to assume Americans don't know about Canada

is hilarious... it would be funnier if we didn't have so many dip shits who believe people like this.

REPUBLICANS PREY ON THE IGNORANT, and now with their tentacles in the media, they can create more ignorance.

[Grinchie]

83. I was in Home Depot the other day and the Sales Clerk started lying about Canad healthcare

He repeated all the right wing talking points with total assurance and authority.

Too bad we know serveral Canadian who are very good friends. One friends wife is Canadian, and they commonly fly back to Canada for health care checkups.. They don't even bother with American doctors. The Husband takes advantage of it too.

But were we amazed that the Grumpy, repthug was willing to spread the lies as if directed by Gods will.

[fascisthunter]

103. arrogance is par for ignorance...

when an ignorant person thinks they know something, they claim they know beyond a doubt. It's very dangerous thinking, or lack of thought that creates this arrogance. We see it in Congress and the Senate...

[GunTotingLib]

43. Dennis is the only one that seems to fight for the common man

What is the wait if you have no insurance and no money?

If adding the 45,000,000 uninsured Americans to our health care system will cause it's collapse. Is it really the best system in the world? As long as 1 out of 6 Americans are not allowed to participate I guess it is.

[Cleita]

60. Yes, he is but he's sixty. Who will pick up the gauntlet and carry on for him?

I feel there are no real representatives for the ordinary person left. Welcome to DU btw.

:toast:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

44. I am sorry...but

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/transformation/wait_times/public/wt_public_mn.html# disagrees with Mr. Kucinich's assessment...

http://www.waittimes.net/waittimes/en/wt_map.aspx

Then click on a region to see the wait times...from my perusal the average wait time is 110 days. The target values are 28 days...

sP

[DollyM]

47. if you don't have the money you will also have a "wait" time . . .

I needed a root canal last year and was in a great deal of pain. The dentist referred me to a specialist who said they needed the $900.00 up front for the procedure or they would not even see me. I went another two months up and down with antibiotics and infections before I could scrape together enough to see the specialist and paid part in cash and put the rest on a credit card that I am still paying on because we haven't had full time work in nearly two years.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

49. i am not saying our system isn't screwed up...

but Mr. Kucinich somehow got the numbers badly wrong. it took me about 5 minutes of looking around the health care services websites in Canada to find this...why would he misrepresent facts so clearly available from the Canadian government's own websites? Weakens his argument a little bit...

and as far as dental care goes, there are indigent care programs that assist in this sort of arena...did you attempt to contact one or more of them? i know three dentists personally and all of them participate and donate their time to a couple of these local programs...I am in the ATL area...but I am sure you could find something reachable...

sP

[slipslidingaway]

53. Kucinich referenced a particular site - Statistics Canada

"Rep. Dennis Kucinich: Dr. Gratzer, you’ve tried to make the case for rationing in Canada - worse than it is in the U.S. Do you know what Statistics Canada - the analogue to the U.S. Census - says the median wait time is across Canada for elective surgery?"

Maybe that is not the correct site to use???

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/start-debut-eng.html

And remember the per capita spending on health care in Canada is almost half of what the US spends, imagine what doubling that could produce.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

86. i am not disagreeing with his points...

so much as i am concerned about the methods he used to obtain numbers. if Mr. Kucinich is using the broader numbers for all of Canada, that makes sense, but Ontario, being the one of the more densely populated provinces, would be a case in the counter-point that can easily be made and he references Ontario in the dialog...

sP

[slipslidingaway]

117. I do not see where DK referenced Ontario in the dialogue above

but I may have missed it...he used numbers from the site he mentioned.

:shrug:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. you are correct ... mea culpa!

the person testifying mentions the Ontario gov't and Province in his statements. Mr Kucinich never mentions Ontario directly. But it does not change the fact that wait times are MUCH higher in Ontario than the average for the procedures Mr Kucinich references. Things are certainly broken here...but they are broken there as well...

sP

[slipslidingaway]

119. It was Dr. Gratzer that focused on the Ontario wait times, but

see my other reply on how wait times are calculated and click on the shortest wait times in the province. Not too bad considering 60 people die in the US everyday because they have no insurance, not to mention all the people who go bankrupt.

Thanks for the links.

:)

[Confusious]

93. 110 days sounds alot better then right now for me,

Which is never, since I have no insurance. Are you going to deny me life, just so you don't have to wait a little longer?

Besides, they always use Canada. 1 country out of how many with national health care has longer wait times in some areas of health care.
Fine, lets use the Finnish, Swedish, French, etc. system. There are lots of other options besides our money for suffering system.

One more thing. Who knows how critical the problems were that these people had to wait for. Its a TOTAL AVERAGE wait time. I'm sure if you're critical, you'll be in first thing. If you got a wart on your nose, well, your going to have to wait a little while for the plastic surgeon who's fixing the car accident victim who's face got chewed by the window shield.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

97. ok...

[slipslidingaway]

116. "How do we measure wait times? This is interesting....

from your first link...

"How do we measure wait times?
We measure wait times in 2 ways :

Surgical wait times: We track the time between when a surgery is ordered and when it is performed
Diagnostic scans (MRI and CT) wait times: We track the time between when a diagnostic scan is ordered and when it is completed."


These wait times can also be a function of when a person schedules the test, I know that I have waited to schedule tests in the past. So if I wait a week or two to even schedule the test, it appears that time is calculated in the wait time...assuming ordered means "ordered by the physician."

Same link and using selecting MRI, Toronto the wait times are as you listed above, but if you click the link to show shortest wait times in the province, the wait time is significantly shortened.


Wait Time Data – Toronto Central

Wait Time Data – Shortest Wait Times

Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI)
Provincial Target 28 days
Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI)
Provincial Wait Time 110

Bluewater Health ** Special note (Sarnia) 15
Peterborough Regional Health Centre (Peterborough) 20
Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences Centre (Thunder Bay) 23
Sault Area Hospital ** Special note (Sault Ste. Marie) 26
St. Joseph's Health Centre - Toronto (Toronto) 32
Guelph General Hospital (Guelph) 32
Grey Bruce Health Services ** Special note (Owen Sound) 38

[RoccoR5955]

50. K&R Dennis is THE MAN!!! He truly works for WE THE PEOPLE...

...not them the corporations!

[micraphone]

52. Hey, "Doctor" Gratzer...

You brought a very blunt knife to a gunfight.

Idiot.

[bluethruandthru]

54. Sometimes I feel like Dennis is the only person in Congress who's really fighting for us.

I'm tired of others in Congress wringing their hands and hoping they can somehow get some watered down version of a public option passed.
We all need to show our support for what Dennis is trying to do.

[suzie]

62. Kucinich is not fighting for you.

Or for anyone.

He likes to score points by ripping into people who come to testify before Congress so that all his devout admirers can go "Oh wow, Dennis you are so wonderful."

These hearings are all staged and matter little. But Kucinich puts on a great show. Too bad he doesn't care as much about actually getting any legislation passed that would help those in need around the country.

[MessiahRp]

70. -1

Lame, really lame.

Rp

[tomp]

89. too bad obama doesn't support kucinich's bill. nt

[Forkboy]

104. Yawn

[LiberalLovinLug]

112. and I thought I was cynical

Let me guess. You don't really believe what you wrote either.
You just want to put on a great show to prove you're a 'maverick' by going against the grain.

[suzie]

128. Sorry, I actually do believe it.

I've worked to get legislation passed and know that one never goes to the Kucinich types if one has anything worthwhile to be done.

Because the Dennis K's are always too pure to deal with whatever legislation might help the average person, but won't get them headlines. It's never pure enough for them and would require compromising their precious causes.

I don't see that Kucinich does anything but make loud noises. When you propose stuff that has zero chance of passing, you don't have to worry about mundane things like working with other people or compromising. You just go along talking the good talk and sounding off in ways that will make your fan club ooh and ahh.

But, do you think Kucinich was just being a 'maverick' by going against the grain of most liberal/progressive legislators all those years when he was among the most anti-choice, anti-women's reproductive rights congresspersons on the Democratic side?

[cali]

91. Bernie's record on health care is better than Kucinich's.

[bluethruandthru]

125. True...Bernie is great too! n/t

[drm604]

55. Listen on past Kucinich to the end of the video.

You'll see some more very good intelligent single-payer advocacy.

[slipslidingaway]

58. +1000 - Dr Marcia Angell link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=323207&mesg_id=323207

Direct link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQNphM6xUsE

I know the others are posted at youtube as well.

[uberblonde]

57. Gratzer is the libertarian doctor the wingnuts like to use as an expert...

But he's been shot down by the authors of the same studies he's used to attack Canadian health care, saying he obviously doesn't understand statistics and completely misconstrues them.

Since he continues to repeat the same "mistakes," one could assume he does it deliberately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gratzer

He was the same guy who advised Giuliani that if he'd had prostate cancer under "socialized medicine," his chances of surviving would have been much lower. Like most wingnuts, he just makes shit up.

[slipslidingaway]

59. FAIR Video - Silencing Single Payer - petition at link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=334470&mesg_id=334470

[tkmorris]

68. But...but...but... Kucinich is woowoo!

He's a loon! He's sees UFO's! He looks like a Keebler Elf!

If all of Congress had spine DK does we wouldn't be arguing over "public options" and the like. We'd have single payer done and dusted.

[GreenPartyVoter]

107. Yep, but for some people it's just more fun to malign him and others who are like him.

[winyanstaz]

69. Kucinich is the MAN!!!!!

I love that guy! If he ever runs again..I am voting for him.

[earcandle]

72. I did! And will again if I get the chance!

[Subdivisions]

73. One of the many reasons I now am supporting Kucinich in 2012...

Should he decided to run again.

[Maru Kitteh]

74. That'll go SO MUCH further than the last UMPTEEN times he's separated fools from their money

honey.

[Grinchie]

84. Obama aint getting any more for me or any other Organic farmer

In fact, I'm done with Obama, who's next?

[ProfessorGAC]

81. The Doctor Is A Smug Jerk, But I Don't Congratulate DK

He was equally smug and arrogant. There was no reason to not let the guy answer the questions. He would have made the same point, perhaps even more strongly, had he let him answer fully, and then refuted his answers.

Color me unimpressed with both of them.
GAC

[RadiationTherapy]

85. I am smug and arrogant too when it comes to the elitist, obstructionist moneyed class

waging a war against the poor.

[Overseas]

96. Thank you Dennis !! K&R !

So glad Dennis points out the truth when people try to slam Canadian or British care-- The US has lots of rationing-- so many excluded by cost. They have government bureaucrats managing some aspects of their care-- we have insurance company bureaucrats doing that. They have long wait times for some procedures-- we have wait times and we have millions of citizens who don't even know they need the procedures they'd have to wait for because they can't afford to check in with a doctor until things get really bad and they crawl into an emergency room.

Etcetera !

And we heard all those arguments about bad bad socialized medicine the last time national health insurance was defeated and the for-profit system has had over a decade to show us how much more efficient it is-- and they failed.

[goclark]

98. Go Dennis! nt

[WoodyD]

111. THAT'S why DK was my first choice

for president in 2008. He's smart and fearless.

[Wapsie B]

114. Put that little shit to work in a big city ER for a week.

Then we'll see how snarky he is.

[Dr.Phool]

115. K&R, and goddamned fucking right!

You go get 'em Dennis. We got your back!

[truth2power]

120. Most of my family is in Canada..

They have had some very serious, and in some cases terminal illnesses. Some have passed on.

NONE OF THEM have been driven into bankruptcy, nor had to sell their homes to pay their medical bills.

No system is perfect! But these bozos who are fellating the insurance companies are making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Shame!! Shame on them! :mad:

[rudy23]

122. Sorry, DLC shills. It's going to take a lot more unrecommends than that to brand Dennis

as a loser on DU the way you've been trying to for the past month.

[EnviroBat]

124. These greedy bastards are only concerned with their bottom line profits.

Kucinich was making him squirm, and I loved it.

Had my doctor been able to order an MRI for me at the time of my motorcycle accident, I wouldn't have been walking around for the past 6 WEEKS with a broken shoulder! All because the Insurance company mandates that a physician wait until they have treated such an injury with steroids for three weeks until they will ok the MRI.

Needless to say, I finally got the MRI, and an having surgery to repair the damage on the 30th.

[snappyturtle]

126. Thanks for posting this video.

Kick:

[Swede]

127. Here is the Youtube link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXP7bRbuhHU&feature=related

[dccrossman]

129. Kick

Would recommend if I could. I just finally saw this today.

Go Kucinich!