TWINS- "ILLEGAL" IMMIGRATION and FASCISM

[Jcrowley]

I Believe Strongly They Should Close THE Border- ALL BORDERS.



On one condition, which is you close it not only to people but to resources. If you say you want to close it to people but not resources, what you're saying, one thing, is that you want their goods but not them- you're saying I don't want you but I want the coffee that's grown on the land that used to be yours.



Why is this migration taking place? It's not taking place because suddenly a bunch of people from Guatemala decide they want to take an eco-tour of the strawberry fields in the San Joaquin valley. It's because their communities are being destroyed through the theft of the land. If you don't want these people moving up here then don't steal those people's lands, pretty simple solution.



The hypocrisy is beyond the pale in this "controversy".

"We" came here somewhere in the early 1600s. "We" found this Promised Land, rich beyond imagination with fresh water and fertile earth and abundant game and timber for the felling. And to "our" further delight, it was largely uninhabited--if "we" didn't count the Red Ones.

"We" didn't see too many of them at first; they avoided our noise and the smoke from our fires, which were always too big. But soon enough, "we" were here in such numbers that they couldn't go around us anymore.



"We" were shocked--SHOCKED, I tell ya--that there were Savages in "our" Promised Land! So "we" set about exterminating them. "We" killed them whenever "we" saw them, "we" drove them from their land and their homes, "we" slaughtered their food supply and left the buffalo bodies to rot in the sun by the hundreds of acres. "We" gave them blankets full of smallpox, murdered their children and raped their women before "we" murdered them as well. "We" rounded them up into concentration camps and ate their food while they starved. "We" made them cut their hair, wear britches and beat them to death if they wouldn't speak "our" language.



"We" stole a whole fucking continent from them and paid them in Genocide.



And now "we're" worried about Illegal Immigration?

[MadMaddie]

1. It's beginning to sound a lot like...

Nazi Facism..this was one of their excuses illegal immigration, and the non Germans using their countries resources....etc...blah..blah..blah...

[ComerPerro]

2. you make good points

[NormanYorkstein]

3. Of course most Democrats disagree with you

Most Democrats are for *legal* immigration, and you can call the majority of Democrats "fascists" if you want but that doesn't make it true.

Just like pro-war Republicans who won't serve, I say pbbt to so-called liberals who claim they care about poor Mexicans but who won't go down to Mexico to build houses and businesses. I'm sure Jimmy Carter has a branch down there, get going.

[Jcrowley]

5. Learn more

From DUer Sapphire Blue:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x596685

and from Ivan Illich:
I was equally impressed by the hypocrisy of most of you: by the hypocrisy of the atmosphere prevailing here. I say this as a brother speaking to brothers and sisters. I say it against many resistances within me; but it must be said. Your very insight, your very openness to evaluations of past programs make you hypocrites because you - or at least most of you - have decided to spend this next summer in Mexico, and therefore, you are unwilling to go far enough in your reappraisal of your program. You close your eyes because you want to go ahead and could not do so if you looked at some facts.

It is quite possible that this hypocrisy is unconscious in most of you. Intellectually, you are ready to see that the motivations which could legitimate volunteer action overseas in 1963 cannot be invoked for the same action in 1968. "Mission-vacations" among poor Mexicans were "the thing" to do for well-off U.S. students earlier in this decade: sentimental concern for newly-discovered. poverty south of the border combined with total blindness to much worse poverty at home justified such benevolent excursions. Intellectual insight into the difficulties of fruitful volunteer action had not sobered the spirit of Peace Corps Papal-and-Self-Styled Volunteers.

http://www.swaraj.org/illich_hell.htm

[NormanYorkstein]

6. wow I agree - with all the povery here at home

it's hypocritical to bring more poor people from other countries to drive down wages even more, even though that is "the thing" to do for well off White liberals.

[countryjake]

12. OT - Thanks for linking to Sapphire Blue's post...didn't realize she was leaving too...

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 25:

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.



Funny, isn't it, how some love to use the accident of birth to wave a flag and shout "MINE".

Thanks for another excellent topic!

[John Q. Citizen]

7. I did some house building in California. That was settled by Mexicans

before Polk stole it.

I wonder what we owe them for the resouces we've extracted, the fish, the timber, the mining, the gas and oil. Not to mention the real estate.

And that's just CA. We also stole Nevada, Utah, NM, OR, Texas, well you get the idea.

Better get out your check book.

Or is stealing illegal but ok, but walking north is illegal but not OK?

Strange sense of justice you have there.

[AlphaCentauri]

11. Many think that erasing history will hide the crimes n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. K&R!!

[1932]

8. Aside: I was listening to podcast of Workers Independent News

recently. A labor guy made the point that immigration as it works out in the US lets in low paid workers who drive down labor prices at the bottom.

However, he wasn't saying that we had to stop that. He made the point that the US does not let in people who might create competition for accumulated wealth at the top. I was half listening, so I missed his entire argument. But I think his point was that we need more free movement of people in a way that creates competition for accumulated capital, whether that's in the form of highly-knowledgeable employees or in the form of business people who want to engage in more competitive business models which might actually tighten proft margins for some people and industries which enjoy very high profit margins on their businesses.

It was an interesting point. I've never heard it made before. There might be something interesting in there.

[JVS]

9. In that case, I demand that we invade western Europe to end their fascism immediately.

Their immigration/fascism policies are very strict and threaten the free world

[hughee99]

10. I don't see the fascism connection here, what did I miss? n/t

[IChing]

13. Yep,

did that answer your question?

Or do we need to talk about economic and political systems?

[Jcrowley]

14. One aspect

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, immigrants, etc.

[hughee99]

16. This is fascism?

Sure this happened in Nazi Germany, but it also happened in a lot of other places as well. You can find this under almost ANY form of government or economic system, whether it's the capitalism, communism, democracy or dictatorship. This is NOT unique to Fascists, this was an old "time tested" tactic that they adopted.

[Jcrowley]

18. It's just one aspect

In and of itself no but taking a look around....


The Danger of American Fascism
R6JNRN6RNRR6N6
By Henry A. Wallace
The New York Times
/
From Henry A. Wallace, Democracy Reborn (New York, 1944), edited by Russell Lord, p. 259.


Henry A. Wallace 33rd Vice President of the United States / "The American fascists are most easily recognized by their deliberate perversion of truth and fact." / "...They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution."

/

Henry Agard Wallace (October 7, 1888 ­ November 18, 1965) was the 33rd Vice President of the United States (1941-45), the 11th Secretary of Agriculture (1933-40), and the 10th Secretary of Commerce (1945-46).

Sunday 09 April 1944

On returning from my trip to the West in February, I received a request from The New York Times to write a piece answering the following questions:

What is a fascist?
How many fascists have we?
How dangerous are they?

A fascist is one whose lust for money or power is combined with such an intensity of intolerance toward those of other races, parties, classes, religions, cultures, regions or nations as to make him ruthless in his use of deceit or violence to attain his ends. The supreme god of a fascist, to which his ends are directed, may be money or power; may be a race or a class; may be a military clique or an economic group; or may be a culture, religion, or a political party.

The perfect type of fascist throughout recent centuries has been the Prussian Junker, who developed such hatred for other races and such allegiance to a military clique as to make him willing at all times to engage in any degree of deceit and violence necessary to place his culture and race astride the world. In every big nation of the world are at least a few people who have the fascist temperament. Every Jew-baiter, every Catholic hater, is a fascist at heart. The hoodlums who have been desecrating churches, cathedrals and synagogues in some of our larger cities are ripe material for fascist leadership.

The obvious types of American fascists are dealt with on the air and in the press. These demagogues and stooges are fronts for others. Dangerous as these people may be, they are not so significant as thousands of other people who have never been mentioned. The really dangerous American fascists are not those who are hooked up directly or indirectly with the Axis. The FBI has its finger on those. The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way.

<snip>

http://www.masters-of-war.org/friendlyfascism.html

[hughee99]

19. All good stuff, but what does any of this have to do with

illegal immigration? Yes, fascists don't like illegal immigrants. From what I've seen, LOTS of different political and economic structures (governments) have issues with illegal immigration. You bring up some good issues on immigration, but what does FASCISM have to do with any of this? That's what I don't see.

[NormanYorkstein]

17. yeah, don't forget "kulaks"

and "left wing agitators" and the other scapegoats of communist states.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

15. Tremendous post.

K&R

[countryjake]

20. Kicking!