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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:20 PM Original message |
High Court: White Firefighters Are Victims Of Bias |
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Joanne98 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:22 PM Response to Original message |
1. What's the percentage of white firefighters in America? |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:28 PM Response to Reply #1 |
4. The % of minority firefighters has probably increased, but this case was |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:45 PM Response to Reply #4 |
15. Thank you -- and I think it very definitely tries to deliver a message ... |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:48 PM Response to Reply #15 |
17. Actually, no. The mayor made a deal with the firefighters union to use the written test. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:20 PM Response to Reply #17 |
26. I was referring to the 5-4 Supreme Court decision . . . |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:23 PM Response to Reply #26 |
28. OK, got it! Sorry, I am in rant mode after this whole hearing and all this moaning and groaning |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:26 PM Response to Reply #28 |
30. I know . . . . and this "firefighter" case has been kind of background in my mind . . . |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:38 PM Response to Reply #30 |
36. Unfortunately, I know a lot about this case, more than I want to know really. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:43 PM Response to Reply #36 |
39. I know that this case like a lot of other stuff that goes on politically in |
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Rage for Order (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 08:09 PM Response to Reply #4 |
58. Repeating inaccurate information will not make it true |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 08:53 PM Response to Reply #58 |
61. Right . . ."repeating info will not make it true" .. . no matter who does it -- |
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Rage for Order (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 12:04 AM Response to Reply #61 |
74. But there were no allegations of test rigging, just undesireable results |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 12:51 AM Response to Reply #74 |
81. Ah . . . but there were . . . !!! ... |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 02:02 AM Response to Reply #81 |
84. Once again this was a new test. How would previous materials have helped on a new exam? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 09:09 PM Response to Reply #84 |
94. Did you read the post -- ??? New Haven had history of discrimination vs minority firefighters . . |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 09:18 PM Response to Reply #94 |
95. The previous test were biased so they were replaced by a new one. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 09:25 PM Response to Reply #95 |
96. Which couldn't stand challenge because it would also be seen ... |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 09:31 PM Response to Reply #96 |
99. The City refused to have the test reviewed for bias. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 11:56 PM Response to Reply #99 |
101. Presumably they didn't want that confirmed . . . |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:23 PM Response to Original message |
2. I agree with the SC decision. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:28 PM Response to Reply #2 |
5. From what we know of standardized tests, they are biased . . . |
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PassingTimeHere (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:30 PM Response to Reply #5 |
6. No, we do not know that. We know that "some" tests are biased. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:36 PM Response to Reply #6 |
11. You're correct . . . I was referring to "standarized" tests -- |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:56 PM Response to Reply #6 |
19. The questions about fire science are on a test that one has to pass tobecome a firefighter |
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PassingTimeHere (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:14 PM Response to Reply #19 |
21. It doesn't matter if the test is the worst of the lot. |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:20 PM Response to Reply #21 |
27. No argument from me on that. I was just commenting, as a New Haven resident, on |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:35 PM Response to Reply #21 |
34. Obviously, it did . . . because they failed. Are we to believe that they are inferior |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 05:19 PM Response to Reply #34 |
46. Sotomayor agrees with SCOTUS ruling on this one. |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 07:50 PM Response to Reply #46 |
55. yes. You are right. |
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Raineyb (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 08:45 AM Response to Reply #34 |
87. It would appear based on some of these answers that that is exactly what people would have you |
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eqfan592 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 12:56 PM Response to Reply #87 |
114. You missed the point entirely. |
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eqfan592 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 12:52 PM Response to Reply #34 |
113. Your reasoning is flawed. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:32 PM Response to Reply #19 |
33. Wow . . . there are certainly a lot of tricks in the barrel ... |
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PassingTimeHere (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 07:23 PM Response to Reply #33 |
54. Well... |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 07:56 PM Response to Reply #54 |
56. Except that such tests yield more racially balanced results. |
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PassingTimeHere (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 08:21 PM Response to Reply #56 |
59. It tells me NOTHING. This group was too small to make that conclusion! |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 09:14 PM Response to Reply #59 |
64. Group is not to small to note that overwhelming presense |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 09:09 PM Response to Reply #54 |
63. OTOH ... |
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Rage for Order (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 08:56 PM Response to Reply #19 |
62. One question does not a test make |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:30 PM Response to Reply #5 |
7. ...and if bias could have been found in this test, I'd support throwing out the results. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:39 PM Response to Reply #7 |
12. Suspicion remains that African-Americans couldn't compete successfully here? |
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TCJ70 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:41 PM Response to Reply #12 |
14. Weren't there also hispanic firefighters that did well... |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:47 PM Response to Reply #14 |
16. Haven't we also had cases where "preferred" candidates were given answers . . .?? |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:59 PM Response to Reply #16 |
20. Evidence of tampering with the candidates would be a valid reason for action. |
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PassingTimeHere (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:14 PM Response to Reply #20 |
22. But no one ever alleged that in court. You have to deal with the facts at hand. |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:19 PM Response to Reply #22 |
25. Exactly. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:17 PM Response to Reply #20 |
23. As I said, there have been OTHER cases where that happened . . . |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:18 PM Response to Reply #23 |
24. Because it was never even alleged? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:23 PM Response to Reply #24 |
29. No . . . I didn't say . . |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:28 PM Response to Reply #29 |
31. Ok, to specify...there's no evidence that some candidates were treated differently. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:30 PM Response to Reply #31 |
32. Not unusual . . . |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:39 PM Response to Reply #32 |
37. How is that pertinent to this issue? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:41 PM Response to Reply #37 |
38. Given the history of corruption, we should question EVERYTHING . . . |
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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:46 PM Response to Reply #38 |
40. To the extent of throwing "everything" out? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:47 PM Response to Reply #40 |
41. Your "if" is the question you can't answer and neither can I . . .it's a possibility . . . |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 07:08 PM Response to Reply #40 |
53. The mayor agreed to the firefighter's union to give the written test. |
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Rage for Order (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 12:06 AM Response to Reply #53 |
75. "Better" racial outcomes? |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 10:22 AM Response to Reply #75 |
90. Damn right, better! Diversity is better. And unless you automatically think diversity |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 05:59 PM Response to Reply #16 |
49. MSM Stories said study guides with sample questions were made available to all applicants |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 09:18 PM Response to Reply #49 |
65. Great, but the question isn't what was made available to ALL applicants. . . |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 09:40 PM Response to Reply #65 |
68. Conjecture and scarcely basis for tossing a test prepared by an outside company |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 12:26 AM Response to Reply #68 |
78. "because of controversy surrounding previous examinations" -- |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 10:21 PM Response to Reply #16 |
71. No evidence of that was presented. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 12:31 AM Response to Reply #71 |
79. New Haven had previously been sued by firefighters for discrimination . . . |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 02:01 AM Response to Reply #79 |
83. This was a brand new exam. Relatives couldn't have helped. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 09:27 PM Response to Reply #83 |
97. It was based in some part on the materials which were still being used . . . |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 09:33 PM Response to Reply #97 |
100. Those same IFSTA and NFPA manuals that are in fire halls all over the country. |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:37 PM Response to Reply #12 |
35. Once again it is POSSIBLE the test was biased. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:56 PM Response to Reply #35 |
43. Of course it's possible the test was biased or answers given in advance . . . |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 05:16 PM Response to Reply #43 |
45. So I think you might have robbed me. Give me the $1000 you may have stolen form me or you go to jail |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 08:34 PM Response to Reply #45 |
60. Discussion and demanding are two quite different things . . . |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 02:18 AM Response to Reply #60 |
85. Who demanded anything? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-18-09 04:14 PM Response to Reply #85 |
103. Your example is one of outright claim ... vs discussion -- Meanwhile . . . |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-18-09 04:21 PM Response to Reply #103 |
104. She's not that bright then. The people who scored well and had their scores tossed were hurt. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-18-09 05:40 PM Response to Reply #104 |
105. Right . . . she's a girl and she has cooties -- !!! |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-18-09 10:45 PM Response to Reply #105 |
106. Actually the argument was that 2/3 of the department in that region, not nationwide. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 12:56 AM Response to Reply #106 |
107. Okay . . . even more intense . . . |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 01:03 AM Response to Reply #107 |
108. I do find it funny you question the results of my cities exams which have achieved racially... |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 01:08 AM Response to Reply #108 |
109. That's why New Haven was sued in the 1970's . . . |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 01:20 AM Response to Reply #109 |
110. They were sued because their tests achieved racially equitable results???? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 12:36 PM Response to Reply #110 |
111. eh . . . |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 12:38 PM Response to Reply #111 |
112. Please read posts before cutting and pasting a response. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:59 PM Response to Reply #12 |
44. Several African Americans did pass the test. |
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DatManFromNawlins (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 06:45 PM Response to Reply #44 |
51. Right. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 09:27 PM Response to Reply #44 |
67. And that means what? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 10:19 PM Response to Reply #67 |
70. That means that several passed the written test. Duh. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 12:22 AM Response to Reply #70 |
77. Without qualifying for promotions -- duh |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 01:57 AM Response to Reply #77 |
82. Yes so their combined scores on the written and oral exam weren't high enough. |
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chucker47 (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jul-19-09 05:09 PM Response to Reply #5 |
115. From what WE(?) know...they are biased...? |
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PassingTimeHere (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:24 PM Response to Original message |
3. I think the city should have hired based on the test, and THEN changed the requirements |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:32 PM Response to Reply #3 |
8. I at least agree with you re changing some of the testing . . . |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 08:01 PM Response to Reply #3 |
57. Why not just give another test involving simulation of real life situations |
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seaglass (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 09:44 PM Response to Reply #57 |
69. Civil Service exams are used to keep politics out of hiring and promotions. |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 10:31 AM Response to Reply #69 |
91. I would not compare a lawyer's job with that of a firefighter. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 10:59 PM Response to Reply #57 |
72. Hopefully they will change the process next time. |
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NJmaverick (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:32 PM Response to Original message |
9. You know the irony is thanks to Bush/Reagan/Bush |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:40 PM Response to Reply #9 |
13. And two weeks before the Sotomayor hearings they reverse her . . |
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brendan120678 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:33 PM Response to Original message |
10. The SC didn't rule against minorities... |
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PassingTimeHere (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 03:53 PM Response to Reply #10 |
18. Good point. |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 04:50 PM Response to Original message |
42. Is affirmative action truly dead now as public policy? |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 05:25 PM Response to Reply #42 |
47. Did you ever read the decision before you dragged out that nonesense? |
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sharesunited (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 06:13 PM Response to Reply #47 |
50. Don't you think that was a smokescreen, though? |
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PassingTimeHere (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 07:07 PM Response to Reply #50 |
52. Disparate impact on such a small group? |
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 05:58 PM Response to Reply #42 |
48. It sure took a hit, and the "disproportionate impact" and "fear of being sued" defenses got killed |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 09:21 PM Response to Original message |
66. I'd say this case is another argument for the Supreme Court to be televised . . . |
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Statistical (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 08:12 AM Response to Reply #66 |
86. SCOTUS is not televised and likely wont be for a while (if ever). |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 09:29 PM Response to Reply #86 |
98. C-span has played some tapes of important cases . .. however I think there is |
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MadBadger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Jul-16-09 11:00 PM Response to Original message |
73. You dont recall this being posted on DU? Are you serious? Is this some kind of joke? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 12:19 AM Response to Original message |
76. For the record . . . |
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SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 12:41 AM Response to Original message |
80. RW think tanks have been "working" this angle for decades, and it's finally paid off |
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AngryAmish (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 08:54 AM Response to Original message |
88. One thing that is missing is "merit" promotion and it's problems |
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seaglass (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jul-18-09 10:00 AM Response to Reply #88 |
102. That is true and in CT they have a particular problem with corruption/nepotism |
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mmonk (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 08:57 AM Response to Original message |
89. What is the nature of this test and how does it relate |
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Seeking Serenity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 10:56 AM Response to Original message |
92. Look, just promote the black and hispanic applicants alone |
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CTyankee (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jul-17-09 05:03 PM Response to Reply #92 |
93. Might result in a hissy fit on the floor...nt |
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