Is It Illegal For Private Armies/ Militias (Blackwater) To Operate In The US?

[Me.]

Curious...Blackwater is trying to set up headquarters in Calif. If not there, they'll try elsewhere. Is this legal, constitutional? What's to stop someone like */Cheney?Rove using them against the American people if they can't get their way by any other means?

[supernova]

1. That would be fine w/ me

as long as they move their black-ops loving asses out of my beloved NC. :grr:


edit: spelling

[slackmaster]

2. Depends on what you mean by "operate"

Curious...Blackwater is trying to set up headquarters in Calif. If not there, they'll try elsewhere. Is this legal, constitutional?

I think their existence as an organization is protected by the First Amendment.

As long as they aren't plotting to overthrow the existing .gov, they are in the clear.

What's to stop someone like */Cheney?Rove using them against the American people if they can't get their way by any other means?

80 million armed US citizens a.k.a. the Unorganized Militia (i.e. the Second Amendment).

[Me.]

9. Would The 80 Million Stand Up?

This country has been so compliant for most of 6 years, would they, or would the fear that gripped so many after 9/11 prevail.

The thing about Blackwater is they are about 100 thousand strong. There have been other groups, but much smaller. And when I said militia, perhaps I misspoke, because they are really an army of mercenaries, guns for hire in large number, setting up on US soil, and hired in other instances (Iraq, NO) by the government.

[slackmaster]

12. The Unorganized Militia has a way of pulling itself together when the need arises

People usually seem to get organized and help each other out when there is a natural disaster. I don't see the possibility of a rogue mercenary army trying to impose martial law as any different.

I'm doing my part by being prepared to arm my neighbors if push comes to shove. Rifles from World War I and World War II still work just fine.



Kitty will help too.

[ProgressiveFool]

31. LOL I was wondering what the cat was for

nt

[slackmaster]

32. She guards and protects

That was when she was just 16 weeks old. She's much bigger now, but still climbs and/or gets into everything.

[tom_paine]

82. Attack Cat on Premesis. LOL Cats are awesome, aren't they?

And that's some collection you've got. I am green w/envy!

[Xenotime]

39. Is it legal to have that many guns?

You must live in Texas.

[michreject]

41. There is no law

stating how many guns you may or may not own. 60+ and counting.:-)

[murloc]

46. I don't think any state bans the number of guns

you can own.

[slackmaster]

63. Read my profile

I live in San Diego, California.

Neither the USA nor the state of California have a limit on the number of firearms a person can own, as long as the person isn't legally disqualified from owning a firearm.

I also have a Federal Firearms License, which saves a lot of time, money, and hassle acquiring the kinds of firearms I collect (curios and relics).

[krispos42]

112. Yes, it is

Some states have a one-gun-a-month policy, IIRC, but there is no limit on how many you can posess. Once I have a Minnesota firearms-transfer permit (or whatever they call the thing), I can walk into any gun store in the state and buy a thousand civvie-legal AR-15 in one transaction if I wanted to.

I don't have $800,000 (plus tax) to spend, but if I did, I could. :-)

There's a guy in Arizona who collects Lugers. Ralph Shattuck. He owns hundreds of them, maybe more. He owns the only .45 Luger carbine in existance, proofed by Georg Luger himself many decades ago. Gun would probably sell at auction for three or four million dollars.

http://www.worldoflugers.com/carbine.html

[uppityperson]

51. Nice cat picture.

Ever try posting it in the lounge or pet forum? :evilgrin:

[orleans]

116. (lol) n/t

[AlCzervik]

117. Dad, is that you?

[Solo_in_MD]

16. Blackwater is no where near 100 thousand people

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. Yeah, whatever.

The full force of the US armed forces haven't been able to pacify twenty-five million Iraqis, most of whom are urban-dwellers. There isn't a force on this earth that could pacify a nation the size of the United States.

[htuttle]

100. Sure there is

This one:

[krispos42]

110. Do you think all of them would support an overthrow?

I doubt it. Many of them are ex-military. They are there because they are being trained to fulfill contracts, not to overthrow the government. I lot of them would desert if somebody tried that. Then you have the police and national guard to deal with.

I also don't think they are a hundred thousand people. They have training facilities that they use to train police officers and that kind of thing, kind of like Thunder Ranch or Gunsight Academy. They probably cycle a 100,000 people through their training facilities. Combat pistol, rifle, and shotgun, precision markmenship, SWAT-team stuff like room-clearing, breaching buildings, hand-to-hand combat, that kind of stuff.

Accoring to Wikipedia, the company's president once allegedly said that Blackwater could provide up to a brigade for humanitarian relieve and low-intensity conflicts. That's about 2-3,000 people, IIRC.

Technically, as long as they have the required permits for whatever full-auto guns and explosives they have, pay their taxes, and don't disturb the neighbors with flash-bang grenades during "American Idol", then what they're doing is legal.

[Me.]

113. Then I'd Say They Are Seriously Overpayed

If in 2 years the * administration has paid them $320 mil for the services of just 2-3000 people.

Mercenary Jackpot

Jeremy Scahill
Researcher Garrett Ordower contributed to this story.


“While the Bush Administration calls for the immediate disbanding of what it has labeled "private" and "illegal" militias in Lebanon and Iraq, it is pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into its own global private mercenary army tasked with protecting US officials and institutions overseas. The secretive program, which spans at least twenty-seven countries, has been an incredible jackpot for one heavily Republican-connected firm in particular: Blackwater USA. Government records recently obtained by The Nation reveal that the Bush Administration has paid Blackwater more than $320 million since June 2004 to provide "diplomatic security" services globally. The massive contract is the largest known to have been awarded to Blackwater to date and reveals how the Administration has elevated a once-fledgling security firm into a major profiteer in the "war on terror."

Blackwater's highly lucrative "diplomatic security" contract was officially awarded under the State Department's little-known Worldwide Personal Protective Service (WPPS) program, described in State Department documents as a government initiative to protect US officials as well as "certain foreign government high level officials whenever the need arises."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060828/scahill

[krispos42]

115. Remember, these are contractors...

They have to buy all their own equipment as well. It's not just the salaries of the guys with guns, it the logistics, organization, and equipment as well. Plus overhead, larger training facilities (which I'm sure we paid for somehow), and all the other stuff.

3,000 people times x 100,000 per year is 300 million right there just for salaries, assuming what I heard about contractor wages is correct.

[Me.]

118. I Did Take That Into Account

But the sum I quoted, (I believe) was for Iraq alone. I don't think it covered other duties such as Katrina. Also, I was considering that they have forces in other areas of the globe such as the Sudan, I wasn't thinking all their forces were deployed in Iraq, or that 300+ mil was the total of Blackwater's earnings for that time period. And you are correct as to the fact that $100 grand a year is not an unusual pay for one of their men, at least that seems to be the prevailing opinion. I have also read that they were involved in US rendition flights, though I don't know how reliable that info is.

[monktonman]

21. Your living in a right wing fantasy world.

80 million Americans would do absolutely nothing if faced with blackwater. Look at where we are now. Wow those Americans really know how to set shit straight dont they.
Or maybe you were planning on opening up your toy chest and doing the job yourself.

Also, as long as blackwater can hire foreign nationals to operate with in US borders, then Blackwaters employee pool is huge. How many people around the world would love to come here and kill Americans. "here ya go son, just fill out this application and you'll recieve your gun and body armor and get payed to shoot Americans - your check is in the mail."

Blackwater is dangerous.
Your kidding yourself if your think these guys wouldnt love to take over.
Or that your gonna do anything about it.

[slackmaster]

22. As opposed to the OP's left-wing fantasy world?

Go figure.

Your kidding yourself if your think these guys wouldnt love to take over.

I've met a few at a shooting range I use sometimes - The range has a contract with Blackwater, for training and range time. The people who work for Blackwater are mostly ex military people with a lot of energy. I'd call them adrenaline junkies.

And no, they would not cooperate with an attempt to "take over" the country. I think that's just plain silly. They perform services for fees. They're US citizens like the rest of us.

[monktonman]

35. So that means what???

since when is it illegal for Blackwater to hire non US citizens?

[slackmaster]

38. I haven't personally seen any non-citizens working for Blackwater

But if they do so outside of the country, what difference does it make?

[monktonman]

42. Outside of the country.......

Blackwater does indeed hire foreign nationals for work. Many of them work in Iraq.
Interesting how you ask about Blackwater employing foreigners "outside" of the US.
whats to stop them from working inside the US??
Do I need to spell it out for you?

[slackmaster]

62. If a foreigner is qualified to work inside the US, what would the problem be?

I work on some very sensitive systems with several people who are not US citizens, but are fully qualified to work here.

[monktonman]

69. Not a problem....

I was reacting to a comment from an earlier poster who said all the guys he knows from Blackwater are ex US military and they'd never be ok with attacking US citizens.

What about foreign employee's of blackwater?
That was the question.
So how about it?????

[slackmaster]

70. One More Time with Feeling

I don't have a problem with a QUALIFIED foreign worker doing ANY kind of job in the USA.

[monktonman]

72. Sorry but I do.....

particularly when it comes to the Army.

[slackmaster]

73. We allow foreign nationals to serve in the real live Army

And the Navy.

[monktonman]

76. Yes ...the real live army

Not a private "security" army.....Who's mandate would be to enforce US law on private citizens. Dick and Karls private military.

The real live army is subject to disclosures that Blackwater is "immune" to.

[newspeak]

107. I think it is not irrational to be concerned about

corporate armies. Remember, some of our so-called American industrialists attempted a coup against FDR, allegedly with a private army. To think that a corporation such as Blackwater or Dynacorp hiring outsiders, maybe some who were in Pinochet's bloody military or from some other maniacal bloody dictator's military, literally sends chills down my spine. I remember a caller on the Randy Rhodes show who was on his way to aid his family in Mississippi after Katrina--he said his family members were afraid because Blackwater had been hired to police the area--and that the family and their neighbors were afraid of them-they had guns and acted very intimidating and that some of them were stealing and daring anyone to do something about it. My radar shot up with that call, because if that was happening in Mississippi, then they were also hired in NOLA and other devastated areas.

Also, remember the whistleblower at Dynacorp-trafficking in young women-taking their passports. With the current administration, these corporations have no check on their power or how much they can get away with. It deeply concerns me.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

74. WOULD YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANY CO. BEING 'IMMUNE' FROM PROSECUTION,...

,...in the event that company violated ANY law in this country?

Just trying to get your attention.

These companies sign government contracts which have a clause protecting them from prosecution, criminal or civil.

Are you comfortable with that?

On edit: If you have contracted with the government in order to make a living, I'm not going to beat you up. I know people who have and have relatives serving in Iraq. I'm just trying to get at any/all abuses of power over people. Okay?

[slackmaster]

77. Let me know when the takeover is imminent

I'll lock and load.

[monktonman]

80. Of course you will....

In the mean time just ignore it, it will go away.

[slackmaster]

81. I can't pick a target when there's nothing to shoot at

It wouldn't be responsible.

Let's concentrate on getting rid of the real problem.

[monktonman]

83. Ok I'm confused......

Is it or is it not ok for a private army to operate within US boarders??

[slackmaster]

86. It depends on what they are actually DOING, not what you call them

Names mean nothing. There used to be a Barbie Liberation Army that switched sound boxes between Barbie and GI Joe dolls, then snuck them back into the stores where they'd bought them.

Any crimes they committed were misdemeanors at worst.

They were a private army, operating withing US borders.

If something that calls itself a private army conspires to overthrow the government, their operations are illegal.

If something that calls itself a Parent-Teacher Association conspires to overthrow the government, their operations are illegal too.

[monktonman]

89. OK I get it now...I didnt know we were playing with words.

I mean thats all this is right?
Play with words and ignore the concept.
My father in law is a big Rush / O'lielly fan and he does the same thing.


I dont like this game.

[slackmaster]

101. I'm NOT playing with words, I do NOT have a problem with the concept

Freedom of association. First Amendment. Everything that has not been specifically outlawed is legal.

[monktonman]

78. So we agree???

why am I getting beat up on?

[INDIA]

104. I agree. You are getting beat up on. n/t

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

40. Actually, they're interested in one thing: making great money.

The questions are:

1) Is/has the administration granted 'immunity' from prosecution to the corporations; and
2) How far will the employees go to keep 'making great money'?

:shrug:

[michreject]

43. Blackwater opens up their NC range once a month for us IPSC/USPSA shooters

We have to pre register. We are not allowed to venture anywhere on the compound except tp the shooting area and back to the gate. Failure to abide with these restrictions will result in a escort off the premises and future bans from entering the compound.

[Me.]

93. DU = Lefties Welcome

Concerns do not = fantasies. Without concerns about what might come to be DU might never been started.

[slackmaster]

103. Everybody is welcome here as long as they behave themselves

My honest opinion is that Blackwater = 21st Century incarnation of the Pinkertons. Nothing more.

[Me.]

108. We Agree, Everyone Is Entitled To Their Opinion

And yes people should behave themselves

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

49. Your comments are insulting in the extreme.

If faced with such an event, Americans will react the same way that any other group of human beings would react when their homes are threatened. What a dismal outlook you have.

[monktonman]

53. So whats the reaction???

Get on your computers and bitch about it??
Thats whats been going on for the past six years.
Why bother fighting as long as my cable isnt out.

A foreign power already has taken over the US.
All our guns didnt do anything to stop it.
THATS insulting.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

54. OK.

Have fun stormin' the castle. I wish you the best of luck with your spunk sock fantasy of overthrowing the US government.

[monktonman]

58. Huh?????

I was commenting on how "80 million americans wouldnt let that happen...." (of course they would)
Storm the castle?????????

Oh and "spunk-sock fatasy"...no thats fuckin funny!
You made my day. (must wipe keyboard)

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

61. Okay. Gotta' call you on that. You're saying, 'it can't happen',...

,...a government-backed, private military will NEVER succeed.

It's government-backed.

Where is the point of confusion? government or military or private?

:rofl:

sorry

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

64. You clearly seem to think...

...that some private mercenary contractor is capable of taking over the entire US mainland. If I'm confused about your beliefs in that matter, please correct me. However, if you do believe that, then you'd better stop surfing the internet and build your bunker, eh?

[monktonman]

68. I was commenting on how brave we all are......

and how nobody would ever conquer the US mainland
because of our "highly regulated militia"
never happen here.
Dont worry, the constitution will save us.
So what, we've got the right to bear arms, big frickin deal.
That doesn't mean smack.

How did I end up being the wing-nut?
Oh thats right...we were talking about America and any time you question the almighty american shit talker your a nut on one end or the other.

And yes, I do believe a private army is a threat. No matter how you look at it.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

59. *LOL* oops

,...sorry,...sometimes, such extremely reality-based statements make me,...laugh.

Is that *ucked up or what?!

[Robson]

111. I want to buy a surplus Blackhawk like Blackwater

What I find concerning is that as a private citizen, what do you think my odds are of buying a Blackhawk helicopter fully armed and prepped? So how is it that this private corporation is able to buy such military equipent, most likely at bargain basement surplus prices similar to government agencies?

[TechBear_Seattle]

3. Define "private armies / militias"

I believe you are right, but it is not unconstitutional or illegial to have a private "security force." I am unclear as to the legal distinction.

[annabanana]

7. A 'security' detail would be strictly limited to guarding private

property, at the behest of the property's owner, yes?

They certainly shouldn't be detailed to crowd control on public streets.

[slackmaster]

8. The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits federal troops from enforcing civil law

It does not prohibit the use of civilian forces from enforcing federal policy. Nor does anything in the Constitution.

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. There is a difference between public civilian forces and private civilian forces

Public civilian forces would be local, state and federal police; enforcing civil law is their reason for existence. Private civilian forces, such as a paramilitary organization operated by a corporation (and as distinct from security whose power is strictly limited to the private property of their contractor and often curtailed even then) is a different matter entirely. I believe that private civilian forces are illegal; they have traditionally been viewed by law enforcement as a de facto threat to public safety and order, after all.

[slackmaster]

17. Being called a de facto threat and being illegal are not at all the same thing

I'm not aware of any federal law that makes paramilitary organizations per se illegal, as long as they do not advocate overthrowing the government.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

52. My concern is, this 'unitary executive' would interpret the Constitution in that way,...

,...and validate oppressive activities in any way possible AROUND, BENEATH, BEYOND the Constitutional boundaries intended by the founders THE FOUNDERS INTENDED NO GOVERNMENT-BACKED MILITIA AGAINST CIVILIANS (whether it be under the guise of 'private' or otherwise).

Ah hah! NOW, I understand why the right-wingers are always holding out Lincoln as being their justification for authoritarianism. Lincoln kinda' breached the founders' intent in the civil war.

Am I right? Have I touched upon their bizarre thinking?

[slackmaster]

66. Oh, him? He'll be gone soon enough.

Other than the ongoing damage he's doing to the US's position in foreign relations, I am not worried at all.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

71. If it was only, just 'him' rather than 'them', I'd be more comforted.

I assume you're talking about #43. He's,...nothing,...a facade.

Yup. HE and THEY have flushed whatever was left of our image straight down the world toilet.

I suppose the positive aspect about the neocons' (slash corporacrats') aggressively-imposed dominance is that,...the POLICY of conscientious greed and *LOL* Amorality (meaning 'no morals') has been exposed. The whole wide world of humanity rejects that policy.

Does BW follow the policy of conscientious greed and amorality?

You bet it does. Oh, yeah. BW doesn't give a damn about the integrity of democracy or people. BW is about making money,...to hell with all that other stuff that makes the human race a decent race.

[Thothmes]

98. Militia

Didn't Washington use the Pennsylvania Militia to put down the Whiskey Rebellion?

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. Is Blackwater operating militia to do crowd control on public streets?

If yes, then the people had damned well better take action in the courts, because to my knowledge that is highly illegal.

[annabanana]

13. I believe they were on the streets of New Orleans.

(some here have pictures)

[slackmaster]

24. If it's highly illegal, surely you can cite the code they're violating

:hi:

[TechBear_Seattle]

25. If I had specifics, I would not have had to say, "to my knowledge"

I would have cited the USC. I'm just remembering things that I was taught in my AP government and history classes *mumble* years ago in high school.

[slackmaster]

34. No offense meant - I tend to take a General Semantics view of things

Generally speaking, what an organization calls itself has no relevance to its legality. Only overt behavior counts.

If a bunch of people want to get together and train each other, then sell security services to whoever can pay for them, as long as they obey state and local laws I think they are in the clear, legally speaking.

[annabanana]

4. If it's not, it certainly ought to be.

A privately owned, highly armed unregulated military force is a cancer on the body politic. They ought to be stripped of their arms and disbanded.

[youngdem]

5. NOPE. They are hard at work here in New Orleans

Wanna hear something WEIRD as shit?

They are guarding the LIBRARY here (among other things). When you go through the metal detector at the library (yes, we have one and yes, sadly we need one), you are searched by Blackwater Security forces with their little bear print shirts and guns and everything.

Also, the richest of the rich in New Orleans (Audubon Place) hired them to stand guard through the storm, and these weren't rent-a-cop, donut munching drop outs in tan shirts with a whistle. These guys were in exterior body armor, multiple machine guns and all black clothes with a mask pull down hattie.


So, it seems they are allowed to operate in the US. NOT good. This just inches us closer to a banana republic when the rich can hire personal armies during a crisis.

[Solo_in_MD]

19. How do you define in workable terms the difference between BW and other rent-a-cops?

Your library example is a good one. IIRC airline security was done by rent-a-cops until it was Federalized. That is not a big deal to me. It could just as easily have been Wells Fargo, Wacenhut or Pinkertons (or whomever are the private security companies these days)

The secuirty guards equipment has to be within the law which leads me to believe the weapons are semi auto. The rest of their paraphenalial is all legal as well.

[youngdem]

27. The main difference to me is this

If our government uses an organization as a forward deployed army in a war zone, that same organization should not be involved in domestic security operations. Too close to violation of Posse Comitatus.

Plus, the TYPE of people is very different. Most security guards in my experience are one of two types of people - the disinterested, underemployed, bored man and the angry, rejected cop wanna be. Neither worry me much.

Blackwater mercs are trained killers (first by the US Army, then by Blackwater) who are deployed in war zones without rules. They are taught to kill first for force protection. I don't want that type of training brought home to America's streets because I don't believe you can turn that stuff on and off. I think they are trained to respond to confrontation in a certain way, and if they get hot enough, something bad is gonna happen. I don't want this type of person guarding the LIBRARY, or frankly, anything else where the force is used to keep one American from another. That's what police are for.

As far as the weapons, they were semis in the library, but the Mercs guarding uptown were armed to the teeth and looked like Arnold in Commando - absolutely no exaggeration. Bowie knives in full view, exposed body armor with the sniper neck protector, multiple guns strapped up and down the body, a small Israeli uzi in the holster and an M-16 over the shoulder. These guys were uptown security for many neighborhoods I worked in here in the city immediately following the storm (while the city was still flooded). I saw them up close. These guys looked like the terrorists on the Daniel Pearl execution video. I hope to god the next president does away with this.

If we need more cops or soldiers, hire them. Just don't outsource justice.

[Solo_in_MD]

36. BW and the other security companies actually have some of all types

They do the bored old guy kind of security as well as the bodyguard kind of stuff. Both are quite legal. They all also do training, testing, analysis, and other things. All reasonable and within the law. Again, not just BW, but all of them. BW is the only one with a PR and Marketing department and has gone for branding. A curious choice, if you ask me.

Its not clear that the US government has used security companies as surrogates in Iraq. Private companies clearly have. That sort of addresses your Posse Comitatus concern. There have been some reports of cooperative missions, but the detail are sketchy at best. I too would prefer a stronger military presence with contractors limited to the mess halls, transportation, logistics and engineering. However, that is not the way our military is currently structured. The security contractors fill a need and would not exist if the need was not there.

I am interested in BW actions and roles in NOLA. I have heard they were deputized and I have heard that they were not. Its also not clear what all they did there that the police and NG did not do (illegal search & seizures). Outside of NOLA when things were in extremis, have you seen bodyguard types patrolling the streets and under what authority?

The gear you described could easily have been legal. AR-15 vice M-4, and most likely was. Full auto weapons are just too had to get and license in most states for them to have been Class 3 weapons. Body armor and knives are no big deal. The intimidation factor of that look works on a lot of people and discourages them from getting stupid, especially the street thug wannabes. They do look like they are from central casting sometimes.

I found your last comment the most interesting If we need more cops or soldiers, hire them. Just don't outsource justice. The government is not required to protect us as individuals. It means you can not sue the cops if they don't come etc. Given that, it is up to each of us to be able to defend ourselves and our family. That people hire others to do that when things have gone to hell in a big way is not surprising. In my family, since we lack that kind of money, we take a DIY approach. Each of us has a pistol and rifle fitted for us and we are proficient. Nothing radical about it, no hidden arsenals or buried ammo, just a capability should the need arise. Thanks goodness we have not had to exercise that capability recently. I am not sure given the understrength of the police forces and the rise of sociopathic violence in the country, I am not sure what options will be there in the future for our children. Speaking pragmatically. for now private security firms are at least an interim domestic solution.

[Sammy Pepys]

6. Probably not illegal would be my guess....

There are tons of private security companies out there.

[Jack Rabbit]

11. It's not illegal, but it should be

The idea of a power hungry politico using them in a treacherous against the US government in a coup d'etat is a remote possibility, and perhaps not one to be taken too seriously.

I would be more afraid of Blackwater or some similar corporate army pursuing there own agenda and foreign policy which might involve the United States without public debate or input.

The potential for mischief is astounding. Unortunately, this will not be made illegal as long as Bush is in the White House and as long as Blackwater's CEO is a loyal and generous contributer to Bush and the GOP.

[Solo_in_MD]

14. I think you are confused

- Blackwater is not a private militia or army in the legal sense. They offer among other things, security services, training etc. They do not have battalions of men and equipment in bases or anything like that.
- They are not relocating to CA. They may be opening a branch office in one of their business areas. No one in their right mind moves to CA. Way too expensive, and the politics there would not be to their liking.
- All of the above is legal and constitutional

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

20. I think you may be missing the point. See my post below,...

,...and, please, add your thoughts/opinions.

[Me.]

26. I Actually Don't Think I Am

An army of mercenaries is still an army, and they are currently operating on our soil at the moment and looking to set up base in Calif.

Blackwater USA: Politically powerful mercenary army with strong connections to the Christian Right

Fresh Air -- 3/19/07 -- Interview with Jeremy Scahill about his book: "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army"

NPR: The war in Iraq has been partly outsourced to private military contractors which are performing many of the services that used to be done by the military. My guest, Jeremy Scahill, has written a book about one of those companies, Blackwater, which he describes as "the world's most mercenary army and the embodiment of the Bush administration policy of privatizing military functions."

http://prairieweather.typepad.com/the_scribe/2007/03/blackwater_usa_.html


Tiny Potrero Battles County and Blackwater USA
By Don Bauder

“The hamlet of Potrero in southeast San Diego County, 45 miles from the city and just 8 minutes from Tecate, is being ambushed. The attackers are county bureaucrats marching alongside Blackwater USA, the private military contractor that is getting so much bad press while being labeled one of the biggest mercenary firms in the Iraq War.

Blackwater wants to build an 824-acre training facility three miles north of Potrero. It will have 15 shooting ranges, an armory for storing ammunition, a course on which moving vehicles will be strafed with paintballs, a helicopter pad, several buildings, and other military accoutrements. But Potrero's oft-stated community goal is to "maintain the existing rural lifestyle by continuing the existing pattern of residential and agricultural uses on large 40-acre lots" alongside "generally undeveloped meadows, open spaces, and hillsides."

http://www.sdreader.com/php/cityshow.php?id=1566


Protest of Blackwater Training Ground in CA

“Protest is mounting around Potrero, CA and the proposed training ground for Blackwater USA. Strangely, the size of the proposed facility appears to have shrunk from 324 acres, as quoted in Raw Story (see previous post), to 220 acres, as quoted in today’s story. From Fox News in San Diego:

Dozens of people protested a private military and law enforcement training facility that’s being proposed in the east San Diego county. Blackwater USA, the company that wants to build the facility, has been accused of training mercenaries for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now the military contractor wants to construct firing ranges on 220 acres of farmland in the tiny community of Potrero.

Potrero is about 45 miles east of San Diego. Some residents are worried about increased traffic and noise.

“They’re talking 300 students, 500 to 550 pieces of ammunition per student, shooting from nine o’clock until maybe until six or seven or maybe later,” said Jan Hedlun. Hedlun is a member of the Potrero planning group.”

http://kmareka.com/index.php/?p=1070

[Solo_in_MD]

29. No, you sitll are...

Scahill has been shopping his OpEd book at all the left places, but little more than a bette noir scary tale. An army or even credible military force requires things that BW doesn't have. Artilery, air support, logistics etc. They are scary looking rent-a-cops with military background who actually know how to shoot. BW does training and testing for lots of people, including the US Military. Companies like BW has existed for YEARS, even during Carter and Clinton. Its not new. Its higher profile now, but that is about it.

Perhaps its my background, but really this is not new stuff in the slightest

[Me.]

33. Perhaps It Is Your Background

And whether you agree with my opinion or not, I find the idea of 100 thousand strong, trained military, based in the US a concern. I consider it even more so when we have an admininstration such as the one currently occupying the WH. And frankly, I don't much care for the idea of them patrolling our streets as they have done in NO, either.

[Solo_in_MD]

37. Where does the 100K strong meme come from. From what I have said its less than 5% of that

[Me.]

55. 5000?

We must be talking about two different Blackwaters, for that would be a serious underestimate of their numbers, imo. They are located in many places including Iraq, Sudan & No, and have very big plans for themselves.

“On January 20th the Iraqi resistance shot down a Blackhawk helicopter killing thirteen American soldiers. Three days later, just hours before Bush would give his State of the Union address, a Little Bird helicopter was shot down, killing five more Americans—but this incident didn’t make nearly the amount of news as the former. While the five men died in combat, they were not members of the US military. They were employees of Blackwater USA, the shining star in a new breed of corporation specializing in private soldiers—also known as mercenaries. These private companies are part of a huge surge in the outsourcing of war, which is extremely evident in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan, Colombia, Haiti, and numerous other countries. Private contractors are the second-largest con- tingent of the “Coalition of the Willing” with a ratio of about one armed con- tractor for every two American soldiers. This is up from a ratio of one to sixty during the first Gulf War. The Pentagon estimates the number of contractors at around 100,000—but this is only an estimate because after four years in Iraq the military is only now beginning a survey to find the size of its contractor force.”

http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/sovereign/military/0325makeakilling.htm



“During Bush’s State of the Union address he asked Congress to approve two immense military buildups. First, he requested "an increase in the size of our active Army and Marine Corps by 92,000 in the next five years. A second task we can take on together is to design and establish a volunteer civilian reserve corps. Such a corps would function much like our military reserve." Bush, however, was not the first to mention this idea. Blackwater CEO and co-founder Erik Prince, a huge campaign contributor to Bush and the GOP, presented his plan for a "contractor brigade" of private military firms at a military conference two years ago.”

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=31647


“The camps <9> are there, fully staffed and ready. In the absence of the US Constitution, Bush's Executive Orders are in place. Everything needed to keep this country running has been contracted out. Halliburton has left the building. Those in our society still having bragging rights to civil liberties are illegal aliens, whose growing numbers give new meaning to the word, "surge." One swipe of Bush's pen will inflict martial law and we will discover, too late, that we live in a police state patrolled by jackbooted Blackwater USA mercenaries <10> who will, indeed, serve at the pleasure of the president..

Blackwater is in place to become this nation's shadow police force and is its current shadow army. Go back to the "dry run" of Katrina and take a look at the heavily armed force that laid seige to New Orleans, that sped through the streets rounding up hurricane victims, packing them into a "detention" arena where they were forced to stay for days without food or water or assistance. Go back even further -- the bodies hanging from the bridge in Fallujah were not US soldiers, but Blackwater mercenaries -- death squad troops 100,000 strong who roam the Iraqi streets at will and stir up violence and hatred against the uniformed US military.”

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/node/6350/print


“We are not simply a "private security company." We are a professional military, law enforcement, security, peacekeeping, and stability operations firm who provides turnkey solutions. We assist with the development of national and global security policies and military transformation plans. We can train, equip and deploy public safety and military professionals, build live-fire indoor/outdoor ranges, MOUT facilities and shoot houses, create ground and aviation operations and logistics support packages, develop and execute canine solutions for patrol and explosive detection, and can design and build facilities both domestically and in austere environments abroad.”

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/about/

[Solo_in_MD]

75. You are misreading the quotes, and even some of them are misleading

The number used for US Gov employed contractors is around 100K. Not clear if its primes or includes subs, but I would think the latter. That number includes cooks, truck drivers, and laundry, not 100K armed mercs. Also, the US Gov in not employing mercs directly. BW is not that big, neither are any of the other contractors. 100K is the size of 7-10 army divisions, which is to say damn near the size of the active army combat force (http://www.gruntsmilitary.com/division.shtml). The numbers of mercs can clearly be no where near that amount. It just doesn't add up.

[Me.]

88. What Doesn't Sense

is the number 5000. I don't believe I said 100,00 in Iraq. What I said is they are scattered among many places. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

[Solo_in_MD]

91. 5000 is actually too much, esp where BW is concerned.

[Me.]

92. As I Said

You are entitled to your opinion.

[Solo_in_MD]

94. Take a look at the cost of keeping and armed solider in the field

and then look at the contractor occupations. Much of the merc hysteria is well overblown

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

44. Private military isn't new. You're right. However, an effective armed 'force',...

,...does NOT require the kind of logistics you suggest as has clearly been proven by our every aggression against an insurgency.

I'm just being as real as possible, here.

[Solo_in_MD]

47. Even insurgents have logistics and heavy weapons

otherwise its little more than a street gang.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

50. And,...you are asserting that BW does NOT have the capability of insurgents?

Okay. You have me completely confused, here.

Is it your belief that,...scratch,...what is an insurgent, in your opinion?

[Solo_in_MD]

60. Insurgents blend with the populace and are supported by them, uniformed forces do not

I would count security companies as uniformed and not insurgents. BW and others does not have the ability to do long term independent logistics where they are not welcomed or supported by at least the local government. They also do not have heavy weapons (at least in the US). No air combat or counter air capability either.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

65. Couldn't BW e-a-s-i-l-y carry out operations against this/our populace,...

,...if requested by this administration, even more easily than international terrorists?

Just asking.

Moreover, let's just assume, for purposes of this discussion, that a dictatorship exists in our nation and there were individuals or groups of individuals attempting to thwart that power. Would not those individuals or groups be considered 'insurgents' by the dictatorship? Would not BW do whatever necessary to retain it's profiteering contract with the government by protecting that dictatorship and oppressing those so-called 'insurgents'?

For discussion sake, what would BW do if forced to choose between the survival of its corporation and the survival of democracy in the USA? Does BW even CARE about such distinctions? If so, what has BW ever done to prove its allegiance to democracy?

[Solo_in_MD]

79. Not really, not dressed like merc from central casting

Remember this, as stated up thread, the vast majority of BW employees are US citizens. The few that are in the armed security part of the business (mercs, not rent-a-cops), are US veterans, which is to say your neighbors, friends from school etc. They are not blood thirsty killing machines. What would it take to get your neighbors to do what you theorize? Yes there are some sociopaths out there, but they are few, and mostly get weeded out of elite training, and would exist in or out of the security business.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

18. I heard this administration does a 'hold harmless' clause with these corporations.

I know for a fact the administration shields 'its' corporations from criminal and civil liability abroad. What would stop them from trying to grant that same shield, here?

If that form of immunity was granted by our courts in this country,...you're completely justified in being concerned. We would ALL be justified in being very, very concerned.

[Hubert Flottz]

23. Google Baldwin Felts detective agency

THE LUDLOW MASSACRE
You can't mine coal without machine guns. --Richard B. Mellon, Congressional testimony quoted in Time, June 14, 1937

snip...

The National Guard was innocently welcomed to town by miners and their families, waving American flags, thinking that men in the uniform of the United States would protect them. But the guard went to work for the operators. They beat miners, jailed them, and escorted strikebreakers into the mines.
The strikers responded. One strikebreaker was murdered, another brutally beaten, four mine guards killed while escorting a scab. And Baldwin-Felts detective George Belcher, the killer of Lippiatt, who had been freed by a coroner's jury composed of Trinidad businessmen ("justifiable homicide"), was killed by a single rifle shot by an unseen gunman as he left a Trinidad drugstore and stopped to light a cigar.

The miners held out through the hard winter, and the mine owners decided on more drastic action. In the spring, two companies of National Guardsmen stationed themselves in the hills above the largest tent colony, housing a thousand men, women, and children, near a tiny depot called Ludlow. On the morning of April 20, 1914, they began firing machine guns into the tents. The men crawled away to draw fire and shoot back, while the women and children crouched in pits dug into the tent floors. At dusk, the soldiers came down from the hills with torches, and set fire to the tents. The countryside was ablaze. The occupants fled.

The next morning, a telephone linesman, going through the charred ruins of the Ludlow colony, lifted an iron cot that covered a pit dug in the floor of one tent, and found the mangled, burned bodies of two women and eleven children. This became known as the Ludlow Massacre.
MORE...

http://a4a.mahost.org/ludlow.html

Gun Thugs and Heroes

http://www.theroanoker.com/favoritearticles/gunsthugs.cfm

Battle of Matewan

http://matewanwv.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=49

Strikebreaking and Intimidation: Mercenaries and Masculinity in Twentieth-Century

http://eh.net/bookreviews/library/0664

The mobility, weapons,(firepower)organization, training and electronics that Blackwater has today, would make them a hell of a force to be reckoned with, if they were turned against the American people.

[Hubert Flottz]

28. “Medieval West Virginia!

Medieval West Virginia
By:Gracie Golden
Page One

The Coal Mine War of West Virginia was not just a labor dispute. It was a full fledged insurrection of the people against tyranny. It was the largest insurrection this nation has had since the Civil War. It was a series of battles between the mining companies and the workers and the workers were trying to become unionized. The coal companies used every means at their disposal to keep this from happening because the union would break the coal companies’ feudal system and weaken their control of the people in West Virginia. This is the story about people who lived under great hardships and their struggle to survive and to make a better life for their children.

Mary Harris Jones, simply called “Mother Jones” by the people, was from Ireland. She lost her husband and four children in 1867, due to a fever epidemic in Memphis, Tennessee. The poor people died in this plague while the rich were able to save themselves by leaving the city. Because poor people could not afford nurses, Mother Jones was alone nursing her family until they died. Unable to save her husband and children, she was surrounded by the dead and crying people in the city. After the death of her husband and children, she moved to Chicago and opened a dress shop, where she sewed clothes for rich society ladies. She was deeply affected when she compared the lives of those rich people to the poverty, hunger and despair of the common people around her. Her new family became the struggling working class. Eventually, she joined the labor movement as a member of the “Knights of Labor.” She traveled the country as an agitator for the union; from the industries of Pennsylvania and Chicago, to the copper mines in Arizona, to the Coal Fields in Colorado and in West Virginia, to help the people.


In 1912, the 82 year old woman arrived at Cabin Creek, West Virginia. The coal operators called her the “most dangerous woman in America.” She was poised and unassuming until it came time to promote a cause for the people and she refused to be intimidated by anyone. When she arrived in Cabin Creek, she coined the phrase “Medieval West Virginia,” and the miners became her “boys.” She said, “Medieval West Virginia! With its tent colonies on the bleak hills! With its grim men and women. When I get to the other side, I shall tell God Almighty about West Virginia!”


Before the land speculators noticed the coal in West Virginia, it was a place of natural beauty, and was a pastoral, agricultural society. Winthrop Lane, in “Black Avalanche,” describes it as “slumbering in solitude.” He said, “The traveler rode horseback up the stony beds of mountain streams and sought shelter at night in a lonely settler’s hut or on the slope of the inhospitable mountain. Forests of oak, ash, cucumber wood and poplar covered the hills. Bears lumbered through the wilderness and wildcats howl at night……. Life on the whole was simple and devoted chiefly to agriculture. The earth reposed peacefully”. MORE...

http://www.rootsweb.com/~wvcoal/essays/med1.htm

[Me.]

30. Interesting Pieces

Who would be our Mother Jones today? That is part of my concern.

[Greyhound]

120. I'm so glad to see that there are still a few of us that know what has happened before

and will likely happen again once things get "worse enough" to act. There are far too many people, even here in this enlightened bastion of information and knowledge, that live in the fantasy land of a democratic and free nation where equality and justice reigns, and the government will protects us from the bad guys (so there is no need for arms and privacy and rights).

Each and every time that the workers and the ruling class have clashed in our history, the government has intervened on behalf of the ruling class. Remember how MacArthur cut his teeth.

[nomatrix]

45. Has the Patriot Act changed the law?

A documentary about militias and private armies.

http://www.shadowcompanythemovie.com/

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

56. The Patriot Act gives greater flexibility to the feds, whether via private contract or,...

,...otherwise, to track US, you and me and the rest of our people.

Just think,...the 'feds', under this administration, have taken even greater liberties than the Patriot Act grants.

Imagine that.

[yurbud]

57. the last time we had guys dressed in black body armor & carrying full auto weapons, they were ...

robbing a bank.

If Blackwater shows up here, the police should treat them the same way they did the North Hollywood bank robbers.

Maybe cities and states need to start passing "no mercenary" ordinances.

[slackmaster]

67. A couple of problems with that scenario

B&B Guns is closed, and you can't buy a normal AR-15 in California any more.

:argh:

[Solo_in_MD]

84. I did not realize B&B closed...I used to go by there when I lived in the LA area

[slackmaster]

87. It's very sad

I miss the giant stuffed bear. It reminded me of the one on The Addams Family.

[yurbud]

95. blackwater can't or cops can't?

[Solo_in_MD]

96. LAPD was subsequenty given M-16 by the Feds

BW would have a very hard time getting M-16s or other selective fire weapons. They are illegal in CA for private ownership, even for security companies. Also remember that fully automatic fire is of very limited tactical utility on a magazine fed weapon. You go through ammo way too fast and rarely hit anything.

There were any number of things that went wrong at that shooting, starting with the lack organization on LAPDs part. Another was the over lack of marksmanship under fire. However, no PD does firefights well, and while they could have solved it with their handguns, going to B&B for some serious firepower was one of their better moves.

[yurbud]

97. well, they at least need cavity searches

[supernova]

85. Even if it isn't strictly illegal

I do consider Blackwater to be highly immoral and unethical.

Simply, they are profiting off the human misery of all miseries... war.

You could argue that they are simply engaging in perhaps the worlds' second oldest profession, looting and pillaging, but that doesn't mean that's a "tradition" we need to be carrying into the future.

[antigop]

90. Time Magazine: Victims of an Outsourced War

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1599682,00.html

>>
In many ways, Katy Helvenston is like any mother who has lost a son in Iraq. She talks to others who have survived their kids. She wonders whether she could have done more to keep him out of harm's way. She breaks down in tears at random intervals.

But Helvenston has problems that military mothers do not have. Her son Scott, who was killed in 2004 at the age of 38, was neither a soldier nor, really, a civilian. He was an ex--Navy seal who worked for a private security firm called Blackwater. Instead of a headstone at Arlington, he has his name etched in a rock at Blackwater's corporate campus in North Carolina. And Helvenston says that three years later, she still has no real answers from the company about what led to her son's death--a death that she believes was due in part to the company's negligence.

You probably remember how Scott Helvenston and his three colleagues died. Video of their killings made newscasts around the world on March 31, 2004, when a Blackwater security convoy was ambushed by gunmen in Fallujah, Iraq. The four men were dragged from their cars, mutilated by a mob and set on fire. The torsos of Helvenston and fellow Blackwater employee Jerry Zovko were hung from the green steel girders of a bridge on the edge of town. In Fallujah, it's still known as Blackwater Bridge.

It was a loss not just for four families. It was a turning point in an already foundering war. An ecstatic mob in the center of a major Iraqi town had torn Americans limb from limb in front of rolling cameras. A series of catastrophic recriminations followed. Muqtada al-Sadr, emboldened by the attack, called for the first Shi'ite uprising against the occupation. U.S. Marines retook Fallujah but flattened parts of the city in the process and set the stage for future cycles of invasion and uprising that have scarred the city--and the country--ever since.
>>

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

99. Wasn't Blackwater in New Orleans after Katrina? See link

http://www.alternet.org/katrina/25320/

[slackmaster]

102. Do you think NO would have been better off without them?

Serious question.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

105. The needed police but not mercenaries. I am sure there were 1000s of police forces

around the country that would have volunteered police officers to go there to assist.

Mercenaries have no right, IMHO to operate on anyone's soil.

[slackmaster]

106. The BW employees were doing exactly what police would have done IMO

The situation was (and to some extent still is) exceptionally desperate.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

109. Except that they are not sworn in to uphold the law. eom

[slackmaster]

119. Like that makes any difference to ordinary LEOs in an emergency

:eyes:

[shadowknows69]

114. if it isn't

then it better not be illegal for me to shoot one if i see them coming toward my house. these mercs start showing up as a secondary police force in our country we need to make real clear real quick that we accept no authority from them.

[Forkboy]

121. Well I was in the Kiss Army

and we were millions strong!