Why is it so hard to understand?

[Toucano]

The resistance to publicly funded health care perplexes me.

My own sister (whom I rarely see since college) is "afraid" of a public system.



She has first hand experience fighting the bean counters at our mother's insurance company whom we spent years fighting for payment of *legitimate* claims.

She knows I was driven to bankruptcy after my appendix ruptured in 2004 and I was hospitalized for two weeks with no insurance. Try shopping around and comparing prices for an emergency surgery.

She accepts that the cost of providing health insurance has contributed significantly to the outsourcing and exportation of our manufacturing base.

Still, she is "afraid".


I get the corporate right-wing attempt to use fear to motivate people to support them. What I can't grasp is how can the imaginary fears they employ can possibly trump the REAL fears people rightly have or should have over the current system.

Are the imaginary fears more powerful because they haven't experienced them, whereas they have become habituated to living with the real fear so it seems less scary?


I marched with this woman in demonstrations against US policy in Central America and South Africa in the 1980's. We boycotted the companies that refused to divest. It really bothers me to watch her change into this pro-corporate, talking-point parroting shill.

But what's worse is that I know she is not the only one. It takes powerful brainwashing to maintain an actual desire to keep a broken non-system of the only industrialized nation in the world that hasn't demanded a public plan.

I don't get it.

[Warpy]

1. Conservatives fear change most of all

even if it's necessary change. They're terrified their lives will be disrupted, that they'll be inconvenienced, that they'll have to learn new ways of coping.

That's how to talk to her, point out that the only change will be in who writes the check to the hospital when she needs care, that the only change is that someone will write that check and she won't be bankrupted if she gets sick.

After all, changing the name on a check she never sees is far less disruption to her life than bankruptcy for health reasons would cause.

[Xenotime]

31. you mean bigots fear change.

[Warpy]

32. I said conservatives and meant conservatives

It's one of their basic characteristics.

[redqueen]

2. I don't get it, either.

Perhaps if you can get her to realize that her inability to define the reason for her fears shows that they are irrational, and as such, should be ignored.

[BlooInBloo]

3. (shrug) What's to understand? Americans are stupid.

[Echo In Light]

6. The most indoctrinated country on the planet. It isn't 'stupid' so much as conditioned to ....

...perceive 'reality' through a very specific, empire/corporate friendly lens that benefits centralized power at every turn as the populace is guaranteed to never pose any serious threat or challenge to Establishment power. That's exactly how Power wants it!

[snagglepuss]

33. Well said. nt

[anonymous171]

37. EXACTLY! nt

[phantom power]

4. It's pretty easy to lie to people and make them fear what they don't know.

The insurance companies and the GOP have been lying to the public about this for a long time. They have all the megaphones and the money.

[marmar]

5. Because the brainwashing has been thorough......

But then again, if people would take a little time to do just a little research on their own, the myths would easily be disspelled.

[dhpgetsit]

7. Corporations buy the Cons

Cons are conning the gullible by building up and then exploiting their fears.
It worked for Hitler for a while.

[TexasObserver]

8. It's a completely irrational fear, fed by decades of propaganda.

People who are quite comfortable with socialism in their daily lives in the form of their WATER, AIR, SEWER, TRASH, ROADS, AIRWAVES, and SKIES shriek about having health care guaranteed and better regulated.

[Toucano]

12. I have cited all those examples.

Is having street lights and highways socialism?

I guess that change is the scary thing. I can't really relate to that. I am desperate to change circumstances that obviously don't function well.

[mmonk]

9. You said it yourself. Fear stoked by lies.

[Toucano]

11. I guess I am just realizing or discovering that fear of the unknown trumps

fear of the known.

At least for some people.


The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know?

[phantom power]

10. There is a system of interlocking memes at work here

Meme 1) "Govt is the problem, never the solution." That one has been propagated by the GOP on overdrive at least since Reagan. Easy to see how this widespread meme preconditions everybody, probably including Congress, to be very skeptical of any proposal like Single Payer.

Meme 2) "If you don't have a job, it's because you fucked up somehow." This one probably goes all the way back to the Calvinist roots of the european colonists. Or even farther back to the Jungian scapegoat archetype. You can see how this plays in: it's OK to have all these people uninsured. Because clearly, they must have made some kind of bad decisions, and so they practically deserve to not have coverage.

Meme 3) "Your tax dollars will pay for people abusing a socialized insurance system."


These are all memes that are floating around in people's heads. And they precondition people to make it easy to believe vacuous statements like "bureaucrats will be in charge of your health insurance" or "the govt is going to euthanize your grandma" or "freeloading immigrants are going to get awesome medical care from your hard earned tax dollars"

If you've ever tried to argue with somebody on this, I bet you've seen how you just end up chasing these three memes around in a circle. You can't break it apart. It's become an interlocking system.

The Private Sector has lent all of its considerable money and power into helping propagate these memes for decades, since they obviously win every time a decision is made to go with a private-sector solution to a problem instead of a socialized one.

[Laelth]

13. Excellent post. Thanks. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[snagglepuss]

35. Excellent points. nt

[CrispyQ]

38. Excellent summation - a post worthy of it's own thread.

"If you've ever tried to argue with somebody on this, I bet you've seen how you just end up chasing these three memes around in a circle. You can't break it apart. It's become an interlocking system."

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Orsino]

14. Because our government HAS fucked up most things it's touched...

...it's easy to sell the FUD about health care.

We are left only with unsexy facts and figures to promote single-payer. The other side has the most powerful motivator: fear.

[Toucano]

18. See, I don't accept that.

Government in the wrong hands HAS fucked up a lot of things. But government HAS done a lot of things RIGHT, when good people govern.



We HAD a fantastic interstate highway system that other countries could never dream of.

We HAD a safe and nutritious food supply (when it was regulated by the government).

We HAD a secure and profitable investment market (when it was regulated by the government).

We HAD free and fair elections (before oversight was privatized).



A strong central government is what brought America it's prosperity since the Civil War.

Every Republican administration since Nixon has actively sought to destroy it with privatization.


The great polka dotted pacifier contributed a lot to the dumbing down and made the brainwashing very easy, I think.

[Orsino]

23. Your several fine examples of successful government are unfortuantely irrelevant.

Until Congress gets serious about our economic security, there's enough fear around that the wingers will easily sell anti-government paranoia.

I think it's as simple as that. Secure our lifestyles, and most of the fear will vanish, relegating Republinomics to the tinfoilers.

[Toucano]

25. But there's the catch-22

They can't get serious about reform and re-regulation while the noise box is constantly screaming "Socialism!" and seeding fear.

There are the mid-terms to think about, and nobody needs to repeat '94.

I guess what we need is truly bold, courageous leadership that won't let itself be distracted.

[Orsino]

26. The screaming is a symptom.

The money is the reason for Congressional inertia.

[CrispyQ]

39. I'm with you Toucano.

I think another thing we don't face is that We the People stopped paying attention to what our elected officials were doing. (The great polka dotted pacifier contributed a lot to that!) Our government became fat & corrupt & when we finally woke up to that fact, we swallowed the republican line that private industry can do everything better. And what we're finding out now, is that some things should not be done for profit. There is a conflict of interest. Health care, prisons, education are just a few that come to mind.

I bought a bumper sticker of one of the new DU designs:

Democracy Isn't Free:
You Have to Pay Attention

Of course, when you're working three jobs to make ends meet & the only news you get are snippets of MSM, what's a person to do? :shrug:

[MADem]

15. Here's the bottom line in one sentence:

"They" think that "they" will have to PAY for "poor people's" medical care.

The idiots don't understand that they're doing that NOW, indirectly and without any economies of scale. It's all about fear of being charged for costs associated with OTHERS. It's a combination of meanness and cheapness.

[Toucano]

16. That's a very good point.

There is (almost) someone lower on the food chain than "thou", so there is always someone else to blame.

[Lex]

19. That's it.

I think they'd rather go without care themselves than to think they'd be contributing to care for others.

[Solomon]

21. Not only this, but they think they will have to wait in line behind

poor people also.

[imdjh]

27. I'd be OK with the wealthy getting VIP cards.

Or a color coded system where preference is given by wealth in noncritical areas of service, ie a VIP card doesn't mean your ingrown toenail gets you ahead in line over the snakebite.

Seriously, rank has its privileges. And if it would mean getting a single payer plan through, I would be OK with VIP cards.

[imdjh]

24. Slight modification - They think poor people will see doctors recreationally

Most are quite aware that they currently pay for the health care for the poor. They also believe that poor people do not value their time, because it has no value, and would go to doctors for silly stuff like the sniffles.

Yes, some poor people go to the ER over stupid shit. But it's not a function of the ER being free or an entertaining place to hang out for a few hours.

[Regret My New Name]

28. but...

People like me, who go to the doctor once every two years, will cancel out those who go for ridiculous reasons... But really, how many people enjoy going to the doctors? I don't see how anyone would willingly want to go see their doctor just to say "hi"... I mean, of course doctor shoppers who are looking for pillz might, but they come from all walks of life, poor to rich.. Ehnnn.

[imdjh]

29. That's what you say now, but when you have government healthcare...

you'll suddenly feel the urge to go to the doctor all the time.

[Toucano]

40. Can you imagine?

A waiting room full of people who just want to shoot the breeze.

Funny thought.

[anigbrowl]

42. No, just about 3% of them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochondriasis

And no, I don't consider this a sufficiently serious problem to keep things the way they are. It does exist though.

[MADem]

36. To an extent, but not really. They don't really see the cause/effect of the whole ER mess.

If they did, they'd be on this push to improve health care like a leg humping dog.

Instead, they prefer to demonize, and they think by demonizing, that they'll keep those poor folk away from the "greater" health care trough. They don't want those poor folk sucking up all of "their" health care and not chipping in "sufficiently."

They just don't want to pay for the medical care of those lazy layabouts and welfare queens. See, they regard medical care as a "forever finite" resource, and they believe that if those "lazy, no good bums" suck up all the health care, there will be less for them.

They regard health care as the one lousy bowl of peanuts on the coffee table at the party, and they don't want the maid, gardener or pool boy helping themselves.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Most people don't even understand how our current health care system works (or doesn't)

If there's one area where I think Obama could be doing a bit of a better job, it's in explaining how the current system works, and why it's broken. Understand that when most people think of "government-run programs" they think of the DMV and the postal service. Hell, just look at the "keep your government hands off my Medicare!" guy from one of the recent town halls.

[Voltaire]

22. It is certainly a teachable moment

Instead of these goofy press conferences, I would much prefer he take that television time to educate a badly misinformed population.

[raccoon]

20. Off to Greatest with you! rec'd. nt

[imdjh]

30. What would be a morally acceptable punishment for abusing single payer?

Abuse of "free (taxpayer funded)" health care is a great concern to the same people who claim to see black women with sirloin steaks, lobsters, and Food Stamp cards in front of them at Walmart.

So what would be the punishment for abusing the system? Would your doctor be able to boot you after the second time you tried to get painkillers os simply had no need for making an appointment much less demanding that it be today?

[Toucano]

41. That woman with the sirloin steaks has been around my whole life.

I used to pictured her looking like Nell Carter but with nicer clothes.

The story always had her getting into a shiny Cadillac. Oh, and she has seven children by different fathers, too!

By now, she must have saved enough on her grocery bill to have a private jet.


She rivals Uncle Sam as a cultural icon, I think.

[imdjh]

43. One time I took someone to task for repeating that stereotype and it backfired.

I swear this happened. I had only earlier in the day shot down someone who had claimed to see the "steak and lobster" type customer with some regularity. Naturally I wondered in response how it was that I shop at a very integrated grocery store and had never seen this. Sure enough, that night a woman with a food stamp benefit card was in front of me with about $50 worth of crab legs and some other stuff.

So I went back to the board and reported this sighting, hoping that my honesty would impress upon the other poster the need to accept that his own experience as reported must be truly unusual. It didn't. He simply said, "See, I told you."

[Posteritatis]

34. They're still fighting the Cold War

Health care today, to them, means Obama will be harvesting the kulaks' organs tomorrow.