a question about disrupting public meetings and freedom of speech

[d_r]

I am asking this seriously because I don't know, I am not trying to make any point.

My question is, when groups like Code Pink or Peta disrupt public speakers, what happens to them? Are they arrested for disorderly conduct? Are they removed from the venue?

[Frances]

1. I remember that Code Pink ladies were removed

I think some were arrested as well

I thought the Code Pink ladies were counter productive

However, they never came close to what I've seen on TV with the Repubs

[Winterblues]

37. One difference between Code Pink and the Republican Thugs is

They identify themselves by wearing pink and they belong to an organization that has a well defined and stated goal. They use theatrics to make their point and not threats and intimidation..They have been a huge asset to our cause..

[aquart]

2. Fly home, birdie.

Or stay and give me a cool chance to win Parrot Bingo.

<http://wikiality.wikia.com/Parrot_Bingo>

[Tangerine LaBamba]

3. It depends -

disorderly conduct laws differ from one jurisdiction to another, and, in all of them, it's within the discretion of the police officers to decide who's disorderly and who's not.

I would venture a guess that if someone stands up and interrupts with rambling screams about something that's not being discussed, and is unruly and refuses to pipe down, that might be called disorderly conduct, and they'd be hauled out.

It's a tricky one, and you're right to be confused. There are no hard and fast rules..................

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[d_r]

12. No I am not confused

I am just not sure. I *THINK* that when code pink etc. disrupt a speaker they are hauled out, and I think they are hauled out. But I don't know that for sure. Like most people I don't want anyone's freedom of speech tramped on, but personally it seems to me from the videos I've seen that these people sent out to disrupt the town hall meeting are going beyond their freedom of speech. They are trying to disrupt the proceedings. So, if peta or code pink etc. would be arrested, I think they should be too. I don't see how right wingers get away with it when anybody else wouldn't.

Well, I am a little confused about that bingo thing or whatever that is.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. You're confused -

look it up. And that's all right, because it's a confusing situation.

It's all very subjective, and a lot of it is dependent on where the disruption takes place, who's in charge of policing the event, what the people in charge of the event want, and the general demeanor of the people speaking.

Your idea of disorderly conduct might not be mine, and neither of us might agree with how a police officer on the scene sees it.

As I said, it's very subjective, with varying laws, so, yeah, it's confusing. Just look at what you wrote - it's someone who sees a whole lot of things that seem contradictory, or potentially contradictory, and that's called "confused."

Hell, who wouldn't be confused?

Freedom of speech, don't forget, is not absolute.........................

[d_r]

20. OK

I guess I am confused, but I like to call it "not sure" lol

[Tangerine LaBamba]

21. MUCH better -

it'll be interesting to see how these people are dealt with in upcoming political events.

The Democrats have GOT to start cracking down on them, play like the Republicans.

But, we'll see........................ :hi:

[amandabeech]

23. Freedom of political speech is darned near absolute.

It is the basis of our political system, and the courts tread upon it very cautiously with good reason.

Everyone gets to express political opinions, however distasteful, and in just about every way, once again, however distasteful in the U.S. IMHO, it is one of the factors that has kept some semblance of a republic going here for so long. Folks get to blow off steam without looking over their shoulders, and noxious views get exposed to disinfecting sunlight rather than rotting and festering in the dark.

People who post here are passionate political partisans, and calls for laws restricting opponents' speech are common.

Just remember the old adage, "What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."

What would Nixon, Bush or Cheney have done if our right to free speech had already been restricted by laws that some here advocate now? It would have been even worse than it was.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

24. Hateful speech

requires the most protection.

People tend to forget that, caught up in their own political frenzy. Censorship is far too quickly brought up, although the word is never used. It's all about ways to silence someone who's saying things that one side doesn't like.

It frightens me to see how fast lefties turn into rightwingnuts when speech or expression of ideas is involved.

Eternal vigilance, indeed..........................

[amandabeech]

25. Memories are exceedingly short on both sides.

Thanks for your support. It's been tough for all us right-wing disrupters here today.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

29. Oh, we're in larger numbers than you might think -

when it was advocated that, perhaps, it might be sensible to wait until all the information was in before drawing any conclusions as to what happened in Henry Gates' house - and we still don't know what was said inside there - the people advocating that were proclaimed to be "apologists for bad cops everywhere," the usual "trolls," "right-wingers," and I was especially touched by the person who wished me an especially painful death.

Reminding them of the Duke lacrosse team fiasco was useless. Since there was nothing to say that would counter that, they simply continued their relentless ugliness.

Tolerant liberals? No, not all of them. Some are simply the flip side of the freerepublic.com coin.

And now I must go take out of the oven my fresh batch of donuts - for the cops, of course.

Hang in there, my friend...............................

[amandabeech]

36. There still isn't definitive information on which frosh dem suffered a pubbie attack.

I was on a nearly information-free vacation when the Gates story hit, mercifully. I don't know what happened either, although I'd put money on a story that involved both parties failing to exhibit their best manners.

Save a couple of donuts for me--I'll pass a couple out to the local officer who gave me a warning instead of a ticket a few months ago. When he pulled me over, I was stunned by my driving mistake and was not very responsive. After a couple of minutes, I pulled myself together, apologized and told him that I was shocked when I realized that I had made a bad mistake that could have seriously hurt others as well as me. I also told him that I had been driving all day and was very tired. He then told me that he thought that I had been jerking him around. I assured him that wasn't the case, and that I was truly sorry. He then told me to keep my head in the game, went back to his car and drove off. Manners, respect and remorse worked wonders.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

41. Lucky you -

the story of the Gates story still isn't entirely known. It did, though, go in a good direction after the White House intervention, so who knows what's next? You missed nothing, though.

The donuts. It sounds like you had a real human being pull you over. Scary what we might do behind the wheel - or elsewhere - when we're not paying attenion.

I'm just glad you're all right.

Manners, respect, and remorse DO work wonders - that was demonstrated in the Gates matter. More of that and less namecalling, and we're on our way....................

[amandabeech]

42. Once in a while you do get lucky in life.

It would sure be great if more real human beings were employed in any number of occupations.

[JDPriestly]

40. Speech is not subject to restriction according to content. That is what you mean.

But it is subject to restriction according to time, place and manner. Public meetings whether city council meetings, religious meetings in public places or anything else are subject to regulations that limit rowdy speech or disruptive speech that goes on and on. If you bring a mob and start screaming at an open city council meeting, you will at the least be asked to leave and probably escorted out. If you resist arrest, you will be arrested for resisting arrest. Speech is limited according to the type of space in which it is exercised. It is not limited according to its content.

[JDPriestly]

39. Speech is free in public forums, but not in quasi-public forums

These meetings and town halls are not absolute public forums. Speech is probably subject to very few restrictions, but people can't just scream and yell endlessly or pose any physical threats to anyone. The congressman should request a strong police presence at the meetings. Speech may not be stopped because of its content. By that, I mean that it does not make any difference whether the speech is pro- or anti-health care, but it can't go way beyond certain limits. As we said, members of Code Pink get arrested when they protest in private spaces, or spaces that are limited in their public uses. This is true of demonstrators everywhere. You can march down a public street in a permitted parade. You may even be able to demonstrate in front of a building on a public sidewalk as long as you don't violate local ordinances that probably do not permit blocking a thoroughfare or public walkway. But you cannot disrupt let's say your city council meeting on and on. If you do, you will be asked to leave. You will be escorted out. You still have free speech inside the city hall meeting room, but your speech rights are limited a bit.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. What does THAT mean?

The OP asked about something very relevant - and confusing.

What's your trouble with that?

[NMDemDist2]

4. yes and yes when they were disruptive

as should be the teabaggery thugs

[Expedite Trucker]

6. Their "free speech" is ok even if it interferes with others-laughable hypocrites

[cynatnite]

7. I'm not a fan of Code Pink, but you are right about this...

They've been removed and arrested. Nothing happens to the mobs who scream, threaten, and in some cases get physical...and I've yet to hear of one arrest or removal.

[elleng]

13. SO FAR.

But they appear to be so disruptive as to potentiall cause 'riots' and physical danger, at which point their right to speak becomes secondary to the public's right to safety.

[Cali_Democrat]

8. I'm not sure about what exactly happens to them, but I know they tend to get rounded up

Also, Gates can be arrested for "disorderly conduct" in his own home and these reich wingers can break up town hall events at will with unruly mob tactics.

[d_r]

15. wow

that's a good point that escaped me

[timeforpeace]

9. We need to man up and stop whining about this.

[4lbs]

10. Just look at McCain's RNC acceptance speech. Code Pink disrupted it, and they were promptly hauled

away by security. The crowd also booed them (Code Pink), obviously.

The same thing needs to happen at these town halls. Anybody who just wants to shout and intimidate should be dragged away by security. The crowd at the town halls needs to boo the disruptors, because essentially they are just annoying them and wasting time.

[SmileyRose]

11. The cops can tase you, beat you up and tie you nekkid to a chair in the prison lobby for 9 hrs

with impunity.

[MindPilot]

16. Some legal person who was on some tv show yesterday talked about this

and he said one of the primary differences (he was defending Code Pink) is that code pink people clearly identified themselves -- they wore pink. The townhall disruptors are stealthy. Code Pink simply attempted to be heard while they represented a faction that was not heard. Townhall disruptors are not there to get their point across, they are there to simply disrupt. In short there is a big difference in both tactics and strategy.

Of course that doesn't address why Code Pink & Peta folks get arrested while townhall disruptors and teabaggers do not, but I think we already know the answer to that question...

[justiceischeap]

34. I worked at PETA for a while and I seem to recall they always got arrested

I made a promise to my Mom that I'd never get arrested so I never participated in any of the protests (where people were likely to get arrested).

Gotta say though, the Swaziland Embassy takeover was a thing of beauty. We (Dems) could learn a thing or two from these groups we sometimes love to vilify. No matter what you think or feel about PETA, they know how to protest, they know how to be heard and they know how to get their message across (again, whether you believe in the message or not).

[Cleita]

18. I'm going to get a lot of flack for what I'm about to say but the First

Amendment, I believe, was about people being able to speak up about injustice, or to fight propaganda distributed by those in power and to be able to do it without being thrown into jail or even to be executed. It was about being able to criticize the king or whoever represents that entity. I don't think it had anything to do with being able to lie about anything you choose to without consequence, or to disrupt discourse, or incite violence. I really hope one of these days a sane Supreme Court can define exactly what is covered by First Amendment rights

[Superfly007]

26. First amendment

[Superfly007]

27. First amendment

The way things are going with the healthcare mobs Obama might have to temporarily suspend the first and second amendments to insure the safety of our congresspeople.

[handmade34]

30. no

there will be no suspension of the 1st and 2nd amendment. I am expecting that many of the more aware citizens around the U.S. will work to put a stop to this silliness.

[maglatinavi]

35. 1st. amendment

It is not silliness. It is organized disruption of what are supposed to be free exchanges of information. They should all be removed and given warnings about their intention to prevent free speech... and arrested if unccoperative. The political aspect of these disorderly conduct with the intention of preventing the dissemination of information, in my mind is not allowing the administration to take a strong position. This "laizes faire" position is wrong. Period.

[TexasObserver]

19. It all depends on who is in charge of the event, and what they ask of security.

Occasionally, some venue has their own security, and they go over board on their own, such as the "don't taze me, bro" incident last year.

A town hall meeting isn't going to have the same security as a national party convention floor. Disruptors at a Democratic convention would be removed and/or arrested, just as Code Pink was.

If the people sponsoring Town Hall meetings have police and ask them to remove disruptors, they will.

[TreasonousBastard]

22. One thing to remember about Code Pink is that...

they get into the biggest trouble when they invade Congressional offices, hearings, and other "non-public" events, which could include a trespassing charge. Most of the time they show up somewhere, make their point, take off before any real disruption, and get away with it. Same with PETA and other groups, althoug PETA does get rousted, and even arrested, for some of their more oddball stunts.

Note that the Phelps clan, Nazis and other pond scum also assemble and cause trouble with few legal ramifications. Protected speech is protected speech, no matter how vile it may be.

Disruptive speech (yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater?) is not so protected, but it can dissolve the meeting before anyone has a chance to clear the hall and get rid of the disrupters, and that's what's working for them. The organized disruption of town halls hasn't resulted in arrests any more than other disorderly meetings so far, and I suspect it's largely because the disrupters cleverly avoid anything that doesn't look like the "spirited discussion" that occurs regularly at political events.

This chould change in the not very distant future, as the meeting organizers come up with strategies to shut them up and clean them out. Unfortunately, this will probably mean more security.

[ColesCountyDem]

28. 'Some times' and 'yes' are the answers, in a nutshell.

Such people are almost always removed, but face criminal charges far less frequently.

[JDPriestly]

31. They are arrested. At least some of them are arrested.

You will find video upon video of Code Pink members being arrested. But most of the time they are arrested when they are really disruptive or cross a police line. They are also arrested when the protest or demonstrate in an area that is not open to the public, that is not considered a public speech forum.

The meetings with the congressmembers are speech forums, but they are not completely open public areas, therefore speech in those forums can be regulated to a greater extent than it can be regulated, let's say in a public park. But even in a public park, demonstrators would probably need a permit unless they limit their numbers. The ordinances and regulations vary from place to place.

Once you are inside, even if you are in a public building, speech can be regulated as to time, place and manner.

I'm not explaining this very well. It is just too late.

Code Pink knew what they could and could not do. They knew when they would be arrested. They were very nonviolent and disciplined about what they did, annoying to those with whom they disagreed, but disciplined and nonviolent.

The people who are protesting at these meetings are not very disciplined. They do not appear to be consciously nonviolent. These demonstrations could easily get out of hand. Someone could get hurt. It is really unfortunate that the demonstrators are being urged to demonstrate without being warned about the possible consequences and carefully advised about how far they can go. Some of them probably will get arrested eventually. That would be a shame in a way because they are older and really don't know what is going on. They don't even know how to demonstrate.

I do not know this stuff because I demonstrate. I know this stuff for another reason.

[d_r]

32. Thank you

Thank you all for these replies, this really did help me think about this.

There are some important points here, especially about code pink identifying themselves, and the idea that they "knew how" to demonstrate, and these people at the town hall meetings do not. They haven't gotten any real training about how to behave, just a tips sheet, and they probably don't have a good idea about what lines to cross.

I really hope that nobody gets hurt.

[JDPriestly]

38. My feeling also. They are confused but not evil people.

Of course they are following evil people and need to hear the straight story and think a little more clearly about what is going on, but it's our job to communicate with them in our way. We need to be there and be disciplined about our presence. We might be smart to take a page from Martin Luther King and sit in quiet prayer and meditation in a large group at these meetings. You would be surprised at what an effect something as simple as that can have. Get a large enough group of people who think like you and simply agree to hold hands and close your eyes and meditate or pray amidst the noise and tumult. That can change the atmosphere in and of itself.

[JVS]

33. Another question: where are the fucking tasers?!?!?!