Duke Lacrosse Players' --where do they go to get their reputations back?

[Blackhatjack]

It is always the problem with defending against false charges covered by the media.

That is why we always need to be very careful in assigning guilt to people just because they are charged with a crime. It applies to every crime across the board, including the death penalty cases.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent by these families to defend their kids against these ill brought charges. And the complainant is not financially able to offset these expenses even if there were civil suits prosecuted against her.

Just a tragedy all around. And the use of the media and the race issue by Nifong is what needs to be remembered from all this, so we can hopefully keep it from happening again.

[rinsd]

1. There are people right here on DU who have apologizing to do. (nt)

On edit: I see some have started to. Good for them.

[Journeyman]

And there are some who can only compound their hatred. . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=626828&mesg_id=626889

[SayWhatYo]

199. I believe his comment was meant to be more satirical in nature.

[soothsayer]

6. Not me! I think they got away with it. Just a gut feeling.

[renie408]

18. There you go. They don't get their reputations back as long as gut feelings supercede evidence. n/t

[Forkboy]

45. Thankfully we don't accuse people on "gut" feelings.

[renie408]

49. No, we accuse them because we need a hot case to win re-election. n/t

[Forkboy]

56. Cha ching!

[Ignacio Upton]

145. Otherwise the Salem Witch trails and McCarthyism would be legitimate

At least we have "innocent until proven guilty"...until Bush just comes out and says we don't.

[Forkboy]

155. It's on shaky ground these days.

:scared:

[Seen the light]

48. Thank you Colbert

Always much better to go with our guts rather than the actual evidence. :P

[pnwmom]

105. Then your gut is prejudiced,

since there is NO evidence to support their guilt.

[mondo joe]

131. Kind of like Bush's gut feeling about Iraq, huh?

Not a good way to conduct oneself, IMO.

[SayWhatYo]

195. sarcasm?

[FredScuttle]

135. I will never, EVER apologize for defending a rape victim

so there you have it

[pnwmom]

185. She wasn't ever a rape victim. That's the problem.

And Nifong had the medical and other evidence that contradicted her story all along and chose to ignore it.

"Defending" her meant falsely accusing three men.

[FredScuttle]

191. Darling, you're confusing "DA drops charges" with "No rape occurred"

They ain't the same...and until the forensic evidence sees the light of day, I will believe that she was the victim of a sexual assault.

But do go on with your leaps of fancy.

[pnwmom]

204. I'm not confusing anything. There is NO evidence that supports her claim

of any attack, according to the Attorney General. He also stated that, in fact, all the evidence CONTRADICTS her claims.

You are the one who is sadly confused.

[FredScuttle]

208. So the SANE's report was just made up?

Hell of a conspiracy that girl had going. :sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

219. All the SANE report showed was that there was evidence

that she had had sex. It reported no injuries -- that was Nifong, lying again.

And the evidence that she had sex wasn't surprising, since she admitted having sex with a couple of friends in the days before the party, and using a vibrator on herself that same day. She also had the DNA of several men inside her who weren't her "friends" or any of the 46 Duke students.

[FredScuttle]

231. So, as I've asked you a million times

You have all the evidence in front of you? Where in the hell did you get that conclusion?

BTW, the SANE's report said the victim had injuries consistent with sexual assault, not sex. And just because she had consensual sex in a recent period before the assault does not mean she was not assaulted.

[kiahzero]

236. That argument doesn't help you.

The people with all of the evidence in front of them said that the players were innocent. Not "not guilty," "innocent."

If I were to say "You raped me," would you reflexively start lashing yourself as a rapist? If not, then you're a hypocrite, because my spurious "accusation" has as much basis in fact as that of the accuser in this case.

[FredScuttle]

241. I'm not talking about the players

I'm debating with the specific poster above on whether or not a sexual assault took place.

They're innocent, so says the AG. So be it.

[LisaL]

240. The special prosecutors that had all the evidence in front of

them concluded the accused were innocent. Is that not enough for you?

[FredScuttle]

242. See post #241

n/t

[pnwmom]

249. The SANE report was done by a nurse-in-training, not a trained SANE

examiner. She described no injuries, just edema -- which is evidence of sex but not specifically of assault.

The Attorney General, another Democrat by the way, had all the evidence before HIM, and he says that all the evidence CONTRADICTS the accuser's claims, and that she contradicts herself.

Many of the legal filings are on the web for anyone to read. Unless they choose to remain ignorant.

[Mike Daniels]

268. Again, if she was assaulted the evidence shows it wasn't by the guys she accused

So your passion over this seems a bit displaced since the matter directly concerns the accusations against the Duke players.

[LisaL]

237. Actually, the reason for dropping the charges was that they

were innocent of the charges. Hello? Do you hear prosecutors say this every day? I don't think so.

[ScreamingWhisper]

250. That is awesome...

No physical evidence. Absolute proof of time of event absence. Multiple shifting stories from the accuser. Digital time-stamp evidence. Cabbie pickup/drop-off verification....but you still prefer to hold these boys (whose individual stories never changed) potentially still as the wrong-doers in this train-wreak of a process.
NO DNA WAS EVIDENT...She said "It was vaginal and ANAL" then ANAL and maybe oral. Then Oral...maybe....?

What assault occured aside from the 5 DNA samples found in her that were outside the boys accused?
The only true victims here were these boys potential and their reputations

[Mike Daniels]

264. She may be very well a victim of sexual assault...

but it's now very apparent that whoever may have assaulted her it wasn't the three guys who just spent over a year going through an emotional wringer.

[cordelia106]

297. DA drops charges.....

"DA drops charges" is just that . I agree with FredScuttle,the woman in question was
sexually assaulted. As in all too many cases of rape if the victim hasn't been beaten to a pulp:
if there are not "reliable" witnesses to back the story of a stripper against "nice boys'. Even Though
the "nice boys" HIRED TWO STRIPPERS for their kegger the chance of the DA winning the case is not great.

[Raine]

244. I agree

where are the bleeding hearts now?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Maybe they can have a lucrative book deal.

They can call it "If We Did It."

[pnwmom]

205. I hope they do and they can call it: INNOCENT.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Rx: File a defamation cause of action against the prosecutor, the

"victim", and the media for reporting it.

[Jacobin]

87. Prosecutors have immunity

the woman who lied about what happened is of course penniless.

they are screwed

[LiberalinNC]

94. It's my understanding that DA's only have immunity for things they

say in the "Court room". Mr. Nifong will probably be losing his license and could possibly be sued by the Lax players.

[Mike Daniels]

282. According to one of the lawyers for the defendants

Everything is on the table meaning there could be civil suits against Nifong, Durham, NC State and Duke University.

I hope the three sue everyone they legally can and manage to collect all the money that's been spent on their end for this farce.

[Jacobin]

287. In my state they have immunity

that is very broadly written. Includes decisions on whether to prosecute or not and for wrongful convictions. Kinda needs to be that way if you think about it, but this case is so egregious that I would hope he gets nailed.

[no_hypocrisy]

103. Could be malacious prosecution if it can be proved that the

prosecutor knew the evidence was insufficient and/or flimsy and he continued until he got indictments.

[Blue-Jay]

116. Not really. Some law-talking-guy was on the radio today.

He said that they can file a criminal complaint for unfair prosecution. (or something like that)

They can also file a civil suit, I believe.

[Blackhatjack]

4. There is unfortunately no effective remedy for these young men...

[idgiehkt]

62. didn't one of them send e-mails about skinning the dancer

and doing even more depraved things?

:shrug:

[Buzz Clik]

75. No.

That was not one of the accused.

It was another lacrosse player who was furious about the way they were being treated and the complete lack of support from the University. His email was horrible and a reflection of ridiculous judgment and rank immaturity. It was handled accordingly by Duke.

[DaDeacon]

5. Reputations back?

They can have theres the second OJ gets his. No conviction play on!@

[soothsayer]

7. an apt comparison! lol. let them go forth and hopefully not do this

again.

[Captain Hilts]

11. There's no evidence they did anything. Even the other dancer agreed. nt

[Horse with no Name]

67. The other dancer changed her story

I'm sure that one of the wealthy parents of the accused boys didn't convince her she might be mistaken or anything.

[pnwmom]

109. Her very first statement was that the charges were a CROCK, that she

was with the accuser the whole time and it couldn't have happened.

After that, she said that she wasn't sure, that she wasn't with the accuser for a few minutes, so that perhaps something happened then.

She changed her story to help the accuser, not the other way around.

[Horse with no Name]

113. I have only followed this case peripherally--my gut feeling says that something

happened, however, I have no idea exactly what.
With that being said...I guess a more appropriate comment would be to that these boys CANNOT get their reputation back because the case was mishandled. Having their day in court was taken away from them as well. IF they are innocent then I am happy that this came to pass.
However, IF they are guilty, they got away with it simply because of an aggressive prosecutor who was serving his own agenda.
It is a shame.
Justice was not served...but all in all, I would rather a guilty man walking than an innocent man incarcerated.

[pnwmom]

127. I think you would have a different opinion if you had watched

the Attorney General lay out the case at the press conference. He said there was NO evidence that supported her mutually contradictory stories -- and they spent months looking for it. He also said that they would be releasing more information next week. Hopefully that will put the questions of any reasonable people to rest.

[Mike Daniels]

271. Wow, your whole assumption of guilt

gets blown out of the water so you come up with some equally unsupported argument so you can continue to deny reality.

God help anyone if you ever serve on a jury because evidence doesn't seem to hold much weight with you.

[Buzz Clik]

77. Holy shit.

You're assuming they are guilty?

Either you haven't been following the case AT ALL, or ...

[spoony]

300. Do what again? Run afoul of an abusive judiciary?

[rinsd]

14. Yeah no evidence vs a guy looking a make a buck by admitting he did it

Same thing

:eyes:

[TheWraith]

33. If you'd bothered to actually learn about the subject, rather than blindly accept what was reported

You'd know the following facts about the OJ Simpson book:

The title was the publisher's choice, not his, a choice he had no input on. Only one chapter is about the murders and the trial. It is in no way, contrary to the way the publisher described it, a confession or even a suggestion of how the murders would have happened, but is more concerned with talking about discrepancies in the evidence.

The image of the book as a confession was entirely created by the publisher as a tool for hype, and because the woman who had initiated the project had a self-admitted desire to force Simpson to "confess" to the killings, to the point of demanding that she get to interview him on national TV, or else the company had to pay her $2 million dollars. And the media ran with the whole story because they knew it would get ratings, accuracy be damned.

So forgive me if I take your opinion less than seriously given that not only are you wildly wrong about the facts of the Duke case, but can't even be bothered to sift the reality out of the tabloid BS on the subject of the Simpson book, and presumably that case as well.

[rinsd]

35. What are you OJ publicist? Fuck that wife beating POS.

"So forgive me if I take your opinion less than seriously given that not only are you wildly wrong about the facts of the Duke case,"

LOL.

[TheWraith]

39. Yeah, let's hang 'im from a tree, hoss!

You know, a rational person, being informed that something that they believed to be accurate was so grossly wrong, would maybe draw back and consider whether or not the rest of their perceptions about the matter were equally misinformed.

Not to mention your wonderful invocation of the old principle that if somebody has behaved in any way unsavory, they deserve to be strung up without benefit of a trial or any due process. Come to think of it, that seems to be the principle behind the resisters in the Duke case, too.

[rinsd]

57. What grossly wrong? You spun me a fairy tale

So where did you get that BS? From OJ?

Here's a review by James Wolcott for Vanity Fair.

http://www.vanityfair.com/fame/features/2007/01/ojsimpson200701?currentPage=1

"Not to mention your wonderful invocation of the old principle that if somebody has behaved in any way unsavory, they deserve to be strung up without benefit of a trial or any due process."

Douchebag hit her, there's plenty of evidence for that. And I never called form him to be strung up though I have little patience with men who raise their hands to women.

"Come to think of it, that seems to be the principle behind the resisters in the Duke case, too."

I really have no issue with those who called for justice when the Duke case first broke. But as the info trickeled out and it became apparent there was very little to this case even evidence pointing to prosecutorial misconduct, there were some who stuck to their guns.

[pnwmom]

111. OJ was found guilty in the civil trial.

That won't happen to these students.

[marions ghost]

288. I wouldn't be too sure about that

let them go ahead with it.

[pnwmom]

110. You're the one who's wildly wrong about the facts of the Duke case.

The students are INNOCENT according to the State Attorney General, after a thorough review of all the facts.

[renie408]

22. No comparison, either.

It is ignorant and ridiculous to compare this case to the OJ case. In the OJ case the preponderance of evidence pointed to his guilt. He was found not guilty by the jury in a misguided effort to balance the scales for all the times innocent black men have been convicted.

There WAS NO EVIDENCE of rape against the Duke lacrosse players. This was a cut and dried case of prosecutorial misconduct. The criminal here is Mike Nifong.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. "preponderance of evidence pointed to his guilt."

The jury disagreed.

[renie408]

28. Way to go, Captain Obvious. That was the point of my post. n/t

[Blackhatjack]

32. You have confused two different standards of proof required in civil and criminal trials

In criminal trials, the standard of proof is 'beyond a reasonable doubt' which is much higher than the standard of proof in a civil trial which is 'by a preponderance of the evidence.'

A useful analogy to explain the difference is to use a football game. In a civil trial, you merely have to move the ball ever so slightly past the 50 yard line to win. In a criminal trial, you have to move the ball all the way down the field and over the goal line.

OJ's criminal trial jury operated under a different standard from that imposed on the later civil trial jury.

[renie408]

36. OJ's trial jury operated under their own standard

They were not going to find him guilty, period. I seem to remember several of them admitting that sometime after the trial. (I will have to spend some quality time with Google to back that up, but I remember it that way.)Not on top of the cops responsible for the Rodney King beating getting off and everything else that was going on at the time.

[TheWraith]

46. I'd be quite shocked if there was any evidence at all to prove that statement.

The jury acted quite responsibly, in my opinion. The lead investigator was an unrepentant racist of the first order, who was on tape admitting to planting evidence against other suspects; the DNA lab had people walking around the crime scene with samples of the only suspects blood; the police went immediately to said individual's house, straight from the crime scene, and proceeded to enter illegally.

Any one of these things would have been a fatal blow to a lot of lesser trials where there wasn't as much of a public outcry to hang the guy, a furor built and fueled by the kind of pre-Fox Noise-style tabloid journalism that was so popular in the 90s. Not to mention the underlying dynamics of a black guy allegedly murdering a white woman, and all that comes with that.

The "admission" that they wouldn't have convicted him under and circumstances sounds to me like one of the many, many myths and urban legends surrounding this case.

[renie408]

52. Then I guess you were just astounded that he was found guilty by the civil jury? And that he

wrote a book explaining how he would have done it...if he had?

Do you REALLY think OJ didn't do it?

[jberryhill]

258. I think you missed the point

A - I think OJ did it, and

B - The civil jury found him liable for wrongful death.

I watched the OJ trial from start to finish. Best reality show ever on TV.

However, I could see how the jury reasonably reached a verdict of not guilty based upon what was presented to them.

The main source of investigative evidence was shown to be a liar. Did it matter whether he was lying about THIS case? No. But it is a standard instruction that if a witness lies, then the jury is entitled to disbelieve EVERYTHING that witness said.

It really was as simple as "if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit". It was utterly STUPID for the prosecution to have OJ try on the glove. OF COURSE there was no way that OJ was going to get that glove on his hand. I don't care about the arthritis, leather shrinkage, the rubber glove, none of that. They had a freaking glove expert from Aris testify that, yes, that glove would fit OJ.

Then they had to go and blow the entire case in one moment. That idiot prosecutor had the murderer's glove right there, and he told the jury it would fit OJ Simpson's hand, and he was going to prove it by having OJ try it on.

Now, I ask you, if you were accused of murder and you were asked to try on the murderer's glove, what do YOU think the odds are that, if asked to try on the glove, you'd slip it right onto your hand? The answer is zero, for me.

But this idiot prosecutor promised the jury it would fit. OJ struggled and strained with it and, shock of shocks, it didn't go on his hand. Well, so much for the prosecutor's promise to prove that point.

The OJ criminal jury, I believe, did what they were instructed to do under the law. The prosecution put on an awful case. The jury wasn't getting all of the concurrent media reporting that we were, and were bound by the evidence and testimony presented in that court room, which frankly stunk. They could have tried that case in a couple of days, but they stretched it out ad nauseum until, probably more than anything else, the jury resented the prosecution as well. I served on a civil jury for four days and by the end of that stupid case, I despised both sides deeply for wasting my time over what was an intensely trivial dispute that didn't amount to the wages lost by the jury.

This situation in Durham is not that. It is not remotely related to that. Here, you have the prosecutor calling the formerly accused INNOCENT. Not, "it's so messed up we can't convict" or anything like that.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find very many instances of a prosecutor declaring a defendant in his jurisdiction to be innocent. These guys hardly ever back down even when there is post-conviction vindication through DNA evidence.

[Blackhatjack]

50. The standard of proof is set by law, nothing the jury could do to change that...

Now if the jury fails to follow the instructions of the Court in reaching a verdict, then that verdict may be overturned by either the Trial Judge of any Court of Appeal.

There are rules by which all trials are conducted, but juries are always unpredictable.

[jberryhill]

76. Um, no, a jury DID agree with that proposition

That's why OJ was found liable in the civil trial for the wrongful death of his ex-wife.

Civil trials are based on a "preponderance of evidence" standard.

Criminal trials are based on a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. The prosecution blew the case, and it was their case to blow.

However a jury most certainly did agree by a preponderance of the evidence that OJ was liable for her death.

[Flying Dream Blues]

107. No, they didn't ...they just found there was reasonable doubt.

The preponderance of evidence DID point to his guilt, which is why he won the civil case brought by the families.

[bighart]

71. Does it bother anyone else that

Nifong is a Democrat? More fodder for the bill o'reily's of the media!!

[pnwmom]

112. He's disgusting, and yes, I wish he weren't a Democrat.

[benEzra]

290. Roy Cooper (the guy currently roasting Nifong, and straightening out this mess) is also a Dem...

NC's Attorney General Roy Cooper (the guy currently roasting Nifong, and straightening out this mess) is also a Dem. I don't see any repercussions for Dems in general here, particularly given Mr. Cooper's high profile involvement.

[Buzz Clik]

78. Bingo.

[pnwmom]

108. There is no comparison between the two cases.

There was a great deal of evidence, including DNA evidence, in the O.J. case. (The defense argued that the DNA evidence was planted, not that it didn't exist.)

There was NO evidence, including NO DNA evidence or any other evidence, that backed up this accuser's multiple self-contradictory stories.

Also, OJ was found guilty in a civil trial. That won't happen in this case.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

198. OJ Simpson Was A Cold Blooded Killer. These Boys Were Innocent.

I therefore seriously hope you were just joking.

[pnwmom]

235. I'm afraid s/he's not joking. Lots of people here seem to be

making that connection.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

256. Haven't Read Enough. But Wow, What A Ridiculous Connection.

Laughable, really.

[spoony]

301. Then one would think they'd be willing to

think that a prosecuter can be reckless. Very confusing.

[Blue_Tires]

274. well said nt

[Blackhatjack]

8. You don't hear defendants proclaimed 'innocent' by prosecutors every day ....

but in this case it is the least that should have been done.

[DaDeacon]

9. no sir...

the case was dropped the end, no jail time was served and for these kids no jobs lost. The coach he can be mad but not really he can now find a job somewhere else. .

[Blackhatjack]

16. If you think nothing bad happened here, try adding the same charges to your resume...

... and tell us if you think it would have no effect on your future prospects.

[pnwmom]

189. I think the AG was trying to underline how utterly unjustifiable

this prosecution was.

I hope Nifong gets his head handed to him on a platter. They need to make an example of him.

[misanthrope]

10. From what I understand...

...this was part and parcel of the existing Duke lacrosse reputation.

[Blackhatjack]

13. The Duke Lacrosse reputation for engaging in rape? Really now?

You must be living in an alternate reality.

[misanthrope]

20. Sorry for the ambiguity...

...I meant the reputation the Duke lacrosse team so proudly fosters as out-of-control hellions was part of what made the charges believable to so many and why they "stuck" in the court of popular opinion so easily.

Not saying they deserved to be charged with a crime they didn't commit, but someone was merely addressing "reputation" and I was attempting to point out that legacy wasn't so sterling before the charges.

[pnwmom]

118. The Duke report shows that they didn't have that reputation.

Nifong was the one that called them "hooligans". That's where they got the reputation.

It's not like drinking beer at rowdy parties separated them from the vast majority of Duke students, or NC state students, or college students everywhere except BYU.

[Buzz Clik]

80. No kidding.

As if hard-core partiers are automatically rapists. The logic is stunning.

[Mike Daniels]

273. I guess my surfing crowd during my grad school years is in trouble using that guy's argument

[Zynx]

81. You could be sued for that statement.

[pnwmom]

No, the Colman report, a disciplinary report put together

by an African-American professor at Duke University, showed that the lacrosse team actually had an excellent record.

You've understood incorrectly, no doubt due to the media smear against the team that was promoted by Nifong.

[misanthrope]

281. Thank you...

....for being civil enough to help with my misconception.

[Blackhatjack]

12. No one understands how unjust charges affect an individual until it happens to them....

It is emotionally devastating. It has long lasting effects. There tend to be people who still believe there was some truth to the charges simply because they were charged. They typically are financially devastated. And their relationships with other people are affected.

To be callous and say 'maybe they learned their lesson' is an indication of total ignorance about this entire process and how unjustly people have been affected.

I am sure that poster's point of view will change immediately if they are ever unjustly charged.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I'd agree that that's true for some, but

I doubt these frat rats have, or will have, the problems you describe.

[Blackhatjack]

29. Well here are a few of the problems we do know were caused by this...

One of the young men lost his job he had waiting for him with a Wall Street firm as result of the charges.

Many of the young men were heckled, harrassed and followed from class to class. Some were even publicly condemned by their teaching professors before their classmates.

All the young men were required to withdraw from school pending the outcome of the charges.
One was allowed to complete his courses to graduate, but not allowed to attend his graduation.

They were hounded by the press, which followed them and camped out in front of their homes.

They had the extent of their cooperation with the police investigation either concealed or mischaracterized as uncooperative.

It would be reasonable to assume that each young man and his family incurred legal expenses in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

They had an out of control DA making speeches to activist groups about their guilt before trial.

These are but a few of the problems we know have already happened. What kind of problems would have too be described for you think that their reputations have been damaged?

[Solo_in_MD]

42. The 88 need to apologize now and any profs who took direct action charged with academic misconduct

There really needs to be some pain for this. One of the acccused was demonstrably elsewhere at the time.

[Mike Daniels]

59. Jesse should also withdraw the financial aid he offered the accuser

and offer similar amounts to the accused.

That would be the right thing to do in this case.

[Solo_in_MD]

64. I disagree

By all accounts she was pretty FU'ed that night. She was then lead by Nifong to where he wanted her to go. In the process all sort of damage was done not only to those falsely accused but the system as well. Every time a patently false charge of rape, racism, sexual discrimination... is made, all the real ones lose credability. She is a minor victim in all of this too.

[pnwmom]

119. I don't think she should be rewarded by Jackson for telling all those stories.

She was either lying, or she's severely mentally disturbed.

[pnwmom]

117. You should have watched them in the conference today then.

These young men and their families have been through hell.

As a mother of college students, a girl and a boy, I can only imagine the pain these families have been through.

[mr_hat]

15. They've become martyrs to the PC left.

That'll prove far more valuable to them than any "reputation" they may have managed to secure had this not happened. Sorry to be so cynical here, but...

Their parents are out money? Sucks, but it's just money after all. So many equally innocent but low-income and minority kids pay with lost lives in prison. Nobody gives a shit about them - who expects them to acquire any reputation other than bad, anyway?

If justice is served in this case, that's a good thing. But injustice continue unabated; it continues to crush those whose voices will never be heard.

Injustice continues to perpetuate the circumstances from which these poor boys' accuser has evidently failed in escaping.

edit: punctuation. Hope that's it...

[Blackhatjack]

21. Justice does not belong to any social class, but rather is the birthright of all Americans...

... and regardless of the social standing of the defendants in this case or the complainant, we must always keep our eyes fixed on the standard that produces justice in the end.

You need to keep in mind that every time a rich defendant successfully defends themselves against unjust criminal charges it helps those less well off financially to defend themselves. In fact, most protections we hold so dear today were decided on appeal to appellate courts by defendants who could afford to pursue the appeal, and as a result it benefits all unjustly charged future defendants without regard to economic status.

[kwassa]

66. This is BS, of course. The rich get different justice than the poor.

They get the best justice money can buy. They get better lawyers, can mount a more extensive defense, pay for experts, do more investigation.

As John Grisham has said repeatedly, most of the people on death row are guilty of having a bad lawyer.

[pnwmom]

120. Two of the students addressed that very issue in the press conference.

They have all the sympathy in the world for others who are falsely accused, and made the point that it was only thanks to their excellent lawyers that they were not sent to jail for life. They were very concerned that innocent people without their resources are sitting in jail right now.

[kwassa]

141. This particular trial result would have been the same ..

rich or poor, as the chief issue was the complete unreliability of the witness. Almost any attorney could take apart her case without hardly trying.

This case fell apart on it's own. I don't know what Nifong was thinking.

In general, though, the rich do get much better representation.

[Blackhatjack]

161. This case did not fall apart on its own. It was the result of hard work by Defense Counsel....

In any serious felony trial the best Defense Attorneys and their staffs spend a tremendous amount of time preparing for every step of the criminal process.

Investigating, preparing a defense for and trying a charge of rape is one of the most difficult trials any attorney is likely to face. The public has no idea of the special rules that apply, and the difficulties in getting the evidence you need and getting it admitted at trial.

Most trials are won through hard work before they start --which was the case with the Duke Lacrosse players' cases.

[marions ghost]

291. BS

economic status is EVERYTHING in American courts. The justice system in America is totally FUBAR.

[TheWraith]

34. You are aware that they're not neccessarily wealthy, right?

Seems all the people who refuse to acknowledge that this case was bullshit from the beginning do so from a base of hatred towards the Duke players on the grounds of being supposedly wealthy. The reality is that no such thing is guaranteed: Duke will take a student of any financial background, and in fact Lacrosse is supposed to be the very best sport to play if you need a full scholarship.

[kwassa]

38. The kids accused come from affluent families.

[Blackhatjack]

51. So should justice be meted out on the basis of afflluence?

[kwassa]

65. Yes, all rich people should go to jail.

Just kiddin'.

I do have trouble getting riled up in the defense of the very rich attending an extraordinarily expensive collge. I realize it is unfair and biased of me.

Lacrosse is also one of those prep school sports. Several of the team players accused are from a local private boys school in the wealthiest part of town.

[Blackhatjack]

104. Many people fail to understand that stereotyping of the rich and the poor are both wrong...

Many times rich people who successfully defend against unjust charges provide the framework for economically disadvantaged defendants to defend themselves. It is the concept of precedent.

If it is proved trustworthy in the trial of the rich person, it applies in the trial of the poor person as well. Principles of law do not come with a price tag attached for exercising them. They belong to all of us.

[kwassa]

142. give me a break ......

are you a law school undergraduate currently? Your approach sounds very naive to me.

It isn't about precedent, it is about convincing the jury in front of you. You give the rich way too much credit. It is what "beyond a reasonable doubt" means to those specific twelve people sitting in those chairs.

[Blackhatjack]

151. Sorry but you are wrong there and I have years of experience as a trial attorney to support it

I have represented the rich and the poor, and lots more in between.

You have a very superficial understanding about how the system works. Maybe you have been listening to way too many television pundits and their ideas about how the system "really works."

Have you ever heard of pattern jury charges? Well that came about as a result of well financed defendants pushing the issue on appeal, convincing the appellate courts that everyone should be entitled to the same charge on the law to the jury without regard to which courtroom they appear in, and which judge they have drawn to preside over their trial.

There are many other examples I could cite, but I doubt you would accept anyone else's informed opinion if this is not enough.

[pnwmom]

187. Thank you for your informed contributions to this discussion! n/t

[kwassa]

280. Quite honestly ....

I don't believe that you are a trial attorney.

Sorry.

[Blackhatjack]

284. So what else is new with you? n/t

[pnwmom]

121. You should get more "riled up." Thanks to the fact that these

students were able to afford an excellent defense, an underhanded, rogue prosecutor has been stopped. Imagine how many other people he may have already jailed, or could have jailed in the future? How can the fact that these students came from well-off families (two of them, anyway) make you feel more sanguine?

Everyone in Durham is lucky that Nifong picked on the wrong defendants this time -- young men with the resources to defend themselves.

[kwassa]

143. Nifong would have been stopped anyway.

The public scrutiny was so high, everyone in the universe was paying attention, including all the legal associations in North Carolina.

[pnwmom]

150. The scrutiny only was so high because the defense attorneys knew

how to fight back. The case couldn't have been shoved under the rug after Nifong won his election campaigns.

As it was, the early media coverage, for the most part, was a disgrace. The Herald Sun and the NY Times, just to name a couple, bought the Nifong scenario hook, line, and sinker.

[Blackhatjack]

154. You are wrong again --this result came from aggressive trench warfare by the Defense Attorneys...

It was the constant probing of the Defense Attorneys that turned up the prosecutions 'factual scenario' that they could prove was wrong. They also demanded discovery of the evidence which Nifong managed to hide. The killer issue in the case was that the DNA evidence was a clear indicator these boys were innocent, and Nifong managed to get a report prepared which did not include the exculpatory DNA evidence. Once the Lab Tech testified that Nifong asked him not to include that information, Nifong was done.

However, this could have gone on forever and a trial could have resulted if not for the work of these Defense Attorneys and their experts.

Not sure what you mean by 'Legal Associations.' There was no interest by the State Bar Association in Nifong's conduct until it was proven he had withheld exculpatory evidence from the Defense Attorneys.

[kwassa]

279. You apparently haven't learned that I am never wrong.

The attorneys were aggressive, but anyone could have won this case.

A freshly minted attorney out of some fifth-tier law school could have easily won. ANY defense attorney could come up with the same discovery; its required by law.

The prosecution had nothing. Nothing. The DNA tests killed it, and as soon as the plaintiff started making contradictory testimony, it was over. The case was dead.

[Blackhatjack]

285. And just where did you get your information? Oprah? Here is how it really works...

Sending over your discovery requests to the prosecution is pretty standard. However, what you get back in response is where good lawyering comes into play.

You have to get out there and investigate your case thoroughly to know what to ask for, and know enough to realize when you did not get everything you are entitled to receive. You have to interview witnesses, visit the crime scene, talk to investigating officers and technicians, read their reports, look for unidentified witnesses, identify your own expert witnesses who will be needed, examine all the charging documents, talk to the prosecutor and interview any witnesses they will call, do background searches on witnesses before trial, study the sciences that apply to your case, and do jury selection research. And this is just a brief overview of some of the tasks that must be performed while working under deadlines.

You posted " ANY defense attorney could come up with the same discovery; it is required by law."

That is like saying any Congressman could obtain all the records they need from the Bush Administration, all they have to do is sent them a letter.

In high profile cases like this one, you often have to file numerous motions requesting the Court's assistance to get what you are 'entitled to receive by law.' And it is in the Trial Judge's discretion whether to grant your motions. If the Trial Judge turns you down, you have to go to trial without it and raise the erroneous ruling on appeal after the trial is already over.

You have a very limited understanding of the value that competent legal counsel brings to the table. And BTW in a rape case all that is required to get the case to the jury is an eyewitness identification by the victim, and a sworn allegation that the victim was raped.

Not the walk in the park you are making it out to be.

[onenote]

253. so if a Kennedy kid or John Edwards kid or Chelsea Clinton gets railroaded

You'll just shrug it off as nothing to "get riled up" about -- rich kids.

[Marrah_G]

224. It absolutely is

If you are male and want an athletic scholarship play Lacrosse, if you are female, take up Rowing. Right now that is where the money scholarships are. My guy's son is at college on a Lacrosse scholarship. People who automatically assume these kids are all rich are mistaken.

[TwilightGardener]

41. WHAT? How do these individual boys' lives somehow become

a statement on social and economic justice? They (and their parents) were screwed by a crazed prosecutor and a gal who apparently had a history of making this sort of shit up, just for shits and giggles, I guess. Yeah, if I was wrongly accused and MY parents were financially ruined and MY reputation was ruined, as well as the rest of my college years, I guess I would think it's perfectly fair, since some hypothetical minority kids I don't even know also suffered some injustice, somewhere, at some point. What a dumb argument.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. You think the reputations of those frat rats was hurt?

They'll be laughing about it with their buddies, who will be toasting their win, and probably hiring strippers again for a kegger.

No doubt they were scared of being convicted and sent to prison but I doubt seriously that their behavior or attitudes toward women will be changed by this experience.

I'd like to be proven wrong. I'd be happy if they changed their ways. But I doubt that they will.

Yes, the media was irresponsible, and I'd like to think they'd change their ways. But I doubt that they will.


Most people stay the same unless they undergo a real conversion, religious or otherwise, or they are forced to change, as the media could be.

[Blackhatjack]

24. Nice! Let's go out and charge lots of people unjustly since it won't harm their reputations.

You have no idea. Hopefully you and/or your loved ones will not have to face a similar situation which would drive the point of the OP home to you.

[michaz]

26. Maybe this woman should change her ways.

Appears to me she was the stripper for money and no one held a gun to her head to go there. Because these guys come from money and belonged to frats does not give a person, no matter what their sex, no matter what their color, the right to accuse someone of something that they did not do!

[TheWraith]

37. What a ridiculous opinion.

So they're evil, and deserve having the label of rapists applied to them for the rest of their life by people like the ones in this thread who refuse to accept reality, simply because they drank and wanted to look at semi-naked women? I hate to break it to you, but that's ridiculous. If you accept the idea that someone finding an activity distasteful, then it becomes an equally valid opinion that homosexuals are evil, unless you reserve to yourself the opinion of ultimate moral arbiter.

Personal biases aside, its evident that the only thing that these guys did wrong was that some of them were drinking underage, hardly a crime worthy of the two years of villification and hatred that's been directed their way, let alone the continual harassment that they're going to get for the rest of their lives.

[Bassthumb]

72. I would like to know your opinion with respect......

I would like to know your opinion with respect to the Hood Rat. How do you think she will get her reputation back? What do you think she will do with the rest of her life? Do you think the Hood Rat will be out stripping for the Duke B-Ball team in order to go fishing for another payday? Do you think she will now move on to prostitution in order to ensure that there will be DNA next time? Do you think that she will change her ways? I don’t know. Maybe she will undergo a real conversion, religious or otherwise. I doubt she will.

Clearly I am being sarcastic. But your resentment towards a certain group of young men who all have certain things in common is inherently racist. I hope these young men do go out for a beer tonight. Because you know for the last year of their lives there has been a dark cloud hanging over their heads. And if they want a stripper to go with their beer it is their choice. Though it would clearly not be recommended.

I have been a lurker for quite some time and this topic clearly brings out the racists here at DU.

Thanks for your time and I will go back to my lurking ways.

BTW. Thanks you DU for giving me an alternative source to find news stories and also for holding intelligent discussions with respect to politics.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

201. Hi Bassthumb! Glad you decided to de-lurk and post! Welcome!

:hi:

[pnwmom]

122. Maybe you should have watched them speak at the press conference

before you made a lot of comments about them personally.

My take is that they were completely sincere. Maybe I've misjudged them. But if you didn't watch them, then you have no basis for your judgment at all.

Of course their reputations were hurt. People will always be making unfounded, prejudiced statements against them, no matter how strongly Attorney General Cooper spoke up on behalf of their complete INNOCENCE.

[xchrom]

23. they never will --

this will be with them their whole lives.

the whole thing is a travesty.

but obviously some disgusting people will always think they are guilty for the purposes of some masturbatory gratification.

[johnnie]

27. I don't know but...

I think they all deserve a free lap dance.

[Buzz Clik]

83. ugh.

I can't decide whether to laugh or spit. A little of both, I suppose...:spray:

[Madspirit]

30. Oh PUHleeeeze!

These frat rats aren't going to have any problems getting jobs, a raises, a book deals, etc. They probably already have more stuff...jobs, etc....lined up and offered to them than most of us will have in a life time.

I am sorry they were falsely accused, if it's true but these boys are going to be just fine. Wait and see. I will put MONEY on it.
Lee

[underpants]

43. Post #17 and this one my reponse is as follows

You need to be more succinct and accurate. As terrible as this is and it is bad I would be willing to bet that there are actually MORE Fortune 500's lined up to have them on their roster than before any of this happened. The old boy network is going to LOVE have them around for backslapping and crude jokes.

[Madspirit]

79. EXACTLY!!

You put it much better than I. They are not suffering nor are they going to.
Lee

[Buzz Clik]

84. Will you be first in line to process their application?

Or will you being hiring them sight unseen?

Or... is this just so much hyperbole?

[marions ghost]

292. Totally agree

now that they got off, there will be no serious consequences.

[jeffrey_X]

175. Exactly

:goodposting:

[supernova]

31. How about not having any more drunken frat parties

where people think it's a good idea to hire strippers?

How about finishing school and getting jobs and concentrating on being responsible young adults. How about volunteering in the community which supports them every day in their damn ivory tower (Not all of Duke is an ivory town, but some students, that's all they ever want to see.)

How about they learn that the world doesn't owe them a damn thing and they have to work to gain the respect of others.

[TwilightGardener]

44. How about strippers stop willingly going into houses full of drunk young men

and puttin' on a show? That is the height of dumb.

[supernova]

54. She obviously need help also

And I hope she gets it. I think anybody caught up in that "profession" needs it.

I understand she is/was a student at NC Central (NCCU). I hope she's still doing that.

[TwilightGardener]

60. Definitely someone who needs to turn her life around--I agree.

[Colobo]

260. What's so wrong about strippers?

[renie408]

47. I don't know about the world, but SOMEBODY owes them

at least an apology.

[supernova]

58. Mike Nifong

owes them an apology, and possibly restitution. I only say "possibly" because I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

[pnwmom]

123. They all WERE doing volunteer work in the community.

There's an awful lot of hypocrisy here about the drinking party. In case you weren't aware, drinking at college is prevelant everywhere. It's not something that separates these students from the vast majority at every college excluding Bob Jones, BYU, and that ilk.

If you HAD watched the press conference, which you obviously didn't, you would know that all three men are determined to spend the rest of their lives trying to overcome this and making their families proud of them.

[supernova]

134. Oh yeah, there's drinking on college campuses

That's no newsflash to me. 1) I went to college 2) I'm a stone's throw away from the Duke campus. And just down the road from UNC and NC State.

And no, I'm not a teetoatler either. I am saying there is a chain of events that lead to all parties fucking this situation beyond credulity. She's going to make it doubly hard for the next sexual assault victim to come forward. (Sadly, that's not a matter of if, but when.)

As for the news conference, I didn't have to. The local news here has been all Duke lacrosse all the time for the past year. Enough already. All parties should get back to their lives.

[pnwmom]

139. Nifong's the one who's made it harder for any future rape victims.

He took advantage of a woman with a long-term record of serious mental illness in order to prosecute this case for his own benefit.

The problem with your citing the drinking and the party is that it is an attempt to blame the victims of the real crime -- these students. The crime against them was a false prosecution, and their behavior -- their drinking party -- didn't cause that false prosecution.

She was drunk and on pain killers before she got to the party. Even if none of THEM had been drinking, she could still have made her rape claim (when the police took her to an alcohol center to dry out), and Nifong would have run with it.

[supernova]

144. I disagree with your argument

that the "real victims" are the players. Squeaky clean they ain't. Although, they now have the opportunity to turn their lives around. We'll see if they take it.

I think the real truth about this case is a very murky in between land where she was too fucked up to remember *exactly* what happend, 2) some squabble did happen (maybe racial slurs, perhaps some aggressive physical contact which may or may not have been sexual).

Only that NC Central student and those Duke players knows the truth about it. We don't. Don't forget that.

[pnwmom]

146. Those students are as innocent of the charges as YOU are.

Or as I am.

As the Attorney General said, there is NO EVIDENCE that supports the charges that were brought against the students. Nothing.

It doesn't matter whether they are "squeaky clean" just as it doesn't matter if the accuser is "squeaky clean" (though in this case, her record does make them look like choirboys.)

[supernova]

149. I'm not talking about legally

Roy Cooper did the right thing there as far as I'm concerned.

But, ethically and morally, they ain't there yet. And frankly since I don't know them personally, I don't care.

[kiahzero]

167. What did they do that was ethically or morally wrong? (n/t)

[supernova]

217. The entire situation is sleazy

Nobdy is sleeping on entirely clean sheets here.

The players: How stupid do you have to be to think it's ok to hire a stripper in an area that is so close to campus that it could and did involve the reputation of the school you think you love? And don't give me that "they were private citizens" crap. That party was a team function. They should have thought about their actions as "the team" that they profess to love so dearly before they dialed that service she worked for.

Mike Nifong: All indications are he did this as a way to score points possibly with the black community in Durham. Boy howdy did that ever backfire. (The good news is NCCU and Duke are communicating more closely than they have in the past. Bet Nifong didn't count on that outcome.) I hope he gets disbarred.

The accuser: She has a lot of issues to work out for going along with a false accusation. I hope she gets the help she needs so she dosn't have to strip for a living.

[kiahzero]

225. I don't see hiring a stripper as morally or ethical "dirty."

Would you care to explain why that's the case?

[supernova]

232. Actually I do find it sleazy

If grown men who want to have a private "party" wish to do so, fine. Just don't do it as any sort of official organization.

While I do not find stripping itself "dirty," I do find the industry abusive and taking advantage of women who often have abuse in their backgrounds. This woman is (is she still?) a student at NCCU and was stripping on the side to pay her tuition. In a just world, she would have more choices than that.

That's what I'm saying.

If this offends you, feel free "Ignore" me.

[Colobo]

262. Women have plenty of choices

Many choose stripping or escorting because of the $$$ they can earn in a couple of hours, which is what people with normal jobs can earn in a week or two.

I have friends who have actually done both, so I know.

[Colobo]

261. That's a myth

Just because most frat and sorority people are drunkards doesn't mean the rest of us, college students, are.

In fact, I think we are a silent majority...

[onenote]

254. how about not treating them different than 1000s of college students

at thousands of colleges around the country.

[Pathwalker]

40. They can join the Army and go to Iraq to relieve a soldier

who's now on his fourth tour.

[ruiner4u]

53. and so can the accusor

and so can you, and so can i.. for christ sake stop with the "they can goto Iraq" crap...

[Pathwalker]

68. Nope, I'm too old for the Army. Unless they've started

taking almost 60's Grandmothers with numerous health issues. :rofl:
You are free to go to Iraq, though.

I'll stop when I feel like it. :silly:

[pnwmom]

124. No, Nifong should go.

But really, we should be pulling everyone out, not sending anyone in.

[Blackhatjack]

55. I think AG Roy Cooper did the right thing, and did not mince words...

it is a rare day to hear this kind of admission.

[Blackhatjack]

61. Joe Cheshire on CNN right now is a straight arrow Defense Attorney...

... and you can rely on what he tells you as being true. I knew when he allowed his client to make public statements of innocence that Cheshire was convinced beyond doubt of his innocence.

Wade Smith is the same way.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. Speaking of which...

whatever happened to those unrelated gay bashing charges?

[ncabot22]

85. here you go...

http://www.washblade.com/2006/4-27/news/localnews/finnerty.cfm

No further updates as far as I can see.


edited for spelling

[Lance_Boyle]

86. Dismissed.

Edit - not dismissed. See above post. It was determined not to have been a hate crime, but comm. service was handed down as punishment.

[pnwmom]

125. You mean the charges that would never have been prosecuted

except that Finnerty was falsely accused in the rape case?

He was found guilty of assault, for making a "fake" punch that didn't actually connect with the "victim" after the victim swung at him. Later, the conviction was erased.

[hfojvt]

69. I think they're gonna be on Imus next month

:hide:

[marions ghost]

293. hmmmmm

and Imus would have a lot of cred in this direction? That should be a good one.

[BronxBoy]

70. Who Knows?

That's what sucks about these types of cases. I guess they'll have to take consolation that they didn't get convicted and spend 20 years in prison before the truth came out.

[citizen snips]

73. Hopefully Nifong will be punished

Maybe then they can re-gain their reputation.

[Thrill]

74. This will help Roy Cooper against Dole

if Easley doesn't run. Roy will.

[cgrindley]

82. They hired strippers for a party

I think that's pretty much the shitty reputation they deserve.

[Lance_Boyle]

88. Whaaaa?

Hiring strippers is a crime now?

[cgrindley]

92. Having a shitty reputation isn't a jail sentence, is it?

Hiring strippers isn't a crime, but it probably should give a person a shitty reputation.

[JVS]

165. This sounds a lot like the she shouldn't have been dressed so scantily school of thought.

[cgrindley]

169. Uh it's the "they shouldn't have hired strippers" school of thought

give me a good reason to hire a stripper...

[Colobo]

266. Getting a lap dance.

It's fun.

[Cameron27]

89. You think they should have been falsely accused of rape

because they hired a stripper?

[cgrindley]

91. No. Their reputation should be shitty because they hired

strippers for a party.

[Cameron27]

95. Ah, you have something against strippers.

[cgrindley]

97. Nothing at all

but hiring them to perform sex acts at your parties won't make you the most respected person in town.

[pnwmom]

128. And so it's fair to have to spend millions of dollars in attorneys

and go through a year of hell in order to avoid spending 30 years in jail?

All because you legally hired strippers to come to a party?

[cgrindley]

166. No one's going to jail for hiring strippers

they went through hell because someone accused them of rape. If they had never been charged with rape, they'd still be dickheads for hiring strippers.

[JVS]

176. But the reputation damage is more severe than that normally received from hiring strippers

[cgrindley]

182. I don't disagree with you... why are we arguing?

I'm missing something here.

[JVS]

164. Are you aware that the reputations of strippers' customers and rapists are not exactly the same...

in most communities?

[cgrindley]

168. Absolutely

Rape is an utterly unforgivable crime.

Hiring strippers is just tacky and sleazy and demeaning to women.

[JVS]

174. So you believe that the reputation of these two groups should be different?

[cgrindley]

181. Yes, absolutely, but that wasn't the arugment

The question was "how are these boys going to regain their good names" to which I replied, they might not have raped anyone, but they still hired strippers. They'll never get their good names back... they'll always have a bad reputation at least for hiring strippers.

[Colobo]

267. There are women who hire male strippers, you know?

[mondo joe]

276. Not to mention men who hire male strippers, who - if I understand the puritan line

of thought - are demeaning themselves.

[LiberalinNC]

96. What about the strippers reputation?

Is this what you want your daughter to do? Not me...I'm not saying what the Lax players did was ethical, but it wasn't criminal.

[cgrindley]

98. Well, strippers have bad reputations

they're strippers.

[LiberalinNC]

102. My point exactly....

people took a stippers word over the word of 3 innocent young men who will never be able to live this tragedy down.

[cgrindley]

170. They hired strippers, they're hardly paragons of virtue

Strippers and the people who hire them are probably moral and ethical equals.

[LisaL]

243. When did DU turn into morality police?

Cause I missed it.

[mondo joe]

265. Get used to it. A while ago some posted that people who were injured while waiting

in line for the first of some line of gameboxes DESERVED to be hurt because of what they were doing.

[SayWhatYo]

215. What's wrong with strippers?

I like them...

[cgrindley]

220. okay

but look, it's not a morally neutral act either in the viewing or in the stripping. It's not a difficult case to make that it's demeaning to women. I feel guilty for the times that I went into strip bars when I was young--even though I was with my first wife and we both thought that it was a funny night out. You know, cool gen x hipsters, couples night at the strip bar, drinking draft and playing darts.

Part of me was always uncomfortable with the idea.

Have any of you actually been to a real strip bar? Do you think it's cool to fold up little dollar tents so that women can pick up bills in their vulvas? Do you think that it's okay for a bunch of middle aged men to oogle some 18 year olds vagina--that she purposefully gapes on stage--crawling around on all fours? Have you seen girls dance with fresh track marks up and down their feet? Their arms? It's not cool, and if you think that it's okay, I don't think that you've ever actually been inside a real strip bar.

[pnwmom]

126. I didn't know we were so puritanical here.

I guess no one watches The Sopranos either. Might see some bare skin.

[cgrindley]

172. I watch The Sopranos

I've been to strip bars. But I think the activity isn't morally neutral or good. I think that it's not something that anyone should be proud of.

[pnwmom]

178. But to even bring the subject up in these circumstances

is a way of blaming the three victims -- the men who were the victims of false prosecutions.

It isn't their fault that they were falsely prosecuted, simply because one of the three hired the strippers, and the other two went to a lacrosse party to which they'd been invited.

[cgrindley]

186. Well, yeah

I'm blaming them for hiring strippers and for going to a party where someone thought hiring strippers was a good idea. I'm sure that their coaches would not have approved of the party had they known. I'm sure that their parents would not have approved of the party had they known. They're at least guilty of poor judgment.

Yes. They are victims of a patently false accusation of rape. Yes. They are victims of false prosecution. Yes. They were on the receiving end of what will probably be found to be prosecutorial misconduct.

But yes... they still excised some mighty poor judgment.

[pnwmom]

192. But what's the point? Why does this seem important to you?

They exercised poor judgment in having a party with strippers. Millions of other college students have probably exercised the same poor judgment and had nothing happen.

If they had stayed locked inside their rooms in a dorm, nothing would have happened to them. So what. This still shouldn't have happened.

[cgrindley]

196. Because the original post asked

"where do they go to get their reputations back?"

and my answer is that since they hired strippers, they won't get their reputations back. Not in full. They won't have the stigma of being rapists--since they're not rapists--but they will never be seen as perfect again. That party was nothing to be proud of and they should have known better.

and yeah, millions of college students have made fools out of themselves. So?

Are you seriously suggesting that they did nothing wrong? Nothing to be ashamed about?

[pnwmom]

200. We don't even know that two of them realized there would be a stripper

there. Part of the evidence is that Seligmann called his girlfriend and was trying to get out of there within minutes after the strippers arrived.

And no, I don't think that people who legally hire strippers have something to be ashamed about, anymore than people who legally go to watch strippers in any other venue.

Are you saying that anyone who goes to a bachelor -- or bachelorette-- party ought to be ashamed of themselves? Give me a break.

[cgrindley]

212. You had a good point and then you spoiled it

your first point is a good one and could be valid.

your second two points are not.

yes, just because an activity is legal does not mean that one shouldn't be ashamed for participating in it. If I were to spend my entire month's pay on scratch lottery cards, my activity would a) be utterly legal AND b) absolutely dissolute.

yes, bachelor and bachelorette parties that do not result in shame are not worth attending. perhaps you've been to a lot of dull parties, but if you're not ashamed, you've been pretty boring.

[pnwmom]

222. I've never been to such a party, but I'm not going to

criticize people who do.

[cgrindley]

228. Why not?

Are you from the 1960's? Is that what's going on here? Are you a boomer?

[pnwmom]

230. I'm on the younger boomer end; too young to get much out of the

sixties. I'm more of a 70's person, I guess.

[cgrindley]

239. I was born in 66

so we're just from incompatible generations. we'll never see eye to eye on this.

[pnwmom]

247. As long as we see eye to eye on Bush.

:hi:

[cgrindley]

286. Wax the bush

guy's gotta go

[marions ghost]

294. well said

:applause:

[SayWhatYo]

216. I was thinking the same thing.. wtf?

I thought I was on a right wing religious forum or something.

[cgrindley]

223. WTF WTF

I'm an atheist. I just happen to think that stripping is demeaning to women.

[ButterflyBlood]

304. yeah seriously

I don't get it with these left wing Taliban types.

[Bicoastal]

90. Whoah, Ken Starr!

I didn't know you posted on DU.

So lets review: On a scale of badness

Getting drunk and hiring strippers for a party > lying to the police and the media by wrongly and maliciously accusing young men of a heinous, shameful crime.

Yep, it all makes sense now. And I suppose you think lying about a Blowjob is worse than lying about WMDs too.

[cgrindley]

93. WTF!

lying to police and media is wrong
hiring strippers is also wrong, just not as wrong
getting blowjobs from interns is wrong
lying about said blowjobs is wrong
lying about WMDs is way wronger

Just because one thing is worse than another thing doesn't make the other thing good. Both things can be bad--one is just worse.

[Bicoastal]

101. What's wrong with hiring strippers, might I ask?

The hirers get a good time, the strippers get money. No one is hurt, and no one gets anything they don't want. Degrading exploitation it may be, but very few women become strippers without a choice in the matter.

You're mixing up something that some find morally repugnant and an act of extortion that is by anyone's definition illegal.

[cgrindley]

171. It's inherently misogynistic... are you seriously asking me this?

come on. Really.

[pnwmom]

179. Is it misogynistic when Duke women hire male strippers? n/t

[cgrindley]

184. No, that'd be misandrist (nt)

[pnwmom]

206. It's not either. This is all so Puritanical.

If there was a universal moral code about nudity then we'd all be wearing burkhas.

[cgrindley]

209. This has nothing to do with nudity

It's about the objectification of human beings.

[pnwmom]

210. Spoken like a loyal member of the Group of 88.

[cgrindley]

213. What's the group of 88? (nt)

[pnwmom]

233. Faculty members at Duke who used the case, and helped demonize

the students, in order to push their own agenda.

Now they want all students at Duke to be required to take their courses.

[onenote]

255. so is it your position that if a stripper claims to have been raped she shouldn't be believed

because she's morally impure?

My view of this case from the beginning was that a lot people, including a lot of DUers were jumping to a lot of conclusions based on their own prejudices and biases and without any information. I don't believe all strippers are lying skanks. And I don't think all college kids who hire strippers are thuggish rapists or rapists-in-waiting. To the extent I took sides, it was based on the presumption of innocence and the fact that my prejudices run towards a mild distrust of authority -- I don't believe that just because someone is a prosecutor he is above doing something unethical.

What was needed here was for the evidence to come out. And as it did, it became clearer and clearer that this was one of those cases where the prosecutor was unethical and the students were unfairly charged with doing something that they did not do.

Yet some folks here on DU continue to think that the students really are guilty or, if not, haven't really suffered enough to warrant anyone caring about what happened.

And seeing that sort of "thinking" here on DU is truly sad.

[Colobo]

269. We are both subjects and objects all the time

That's life indeed.

[SayWhatYo]

221. But they're ones taking the men's money..

One could even say they are taking advantage of lonely men.(I wouldn't say that though, but one could if they really wanted to)

Of course that is assuming we're only talking about men. Women seem to enjoy male strippers now and then too. Although I don't think it's as common, I don't see as many people complaining about that. Anyways, that is beside the point.

[cgrindley]

229. But that's not the world's greatest argument

so street child prostitutes are really empowered because they're taking the john's money?

By the way, I'm not saying that stripping should be illegal, just that we should feel shitty and guilty and ashamed for participating in it.

[Colobo]

270. You should feel like that if you want

Let others feel as they wish.

[SayWhatYo]

218. In a post above you said they were morally equal..

Did you not?

[mondo joe]

133. Good reminder that Puritanism isn't just an affliction of Freepers.

Thanks.

:eyes:

[cgrindley]

173. I'm not saying that the activity should be illegal

I'm merely pointing out that it is a vice. Like gambling. I don't think that prostitution should be illegal. But it'll never be moral.

[pnwmom]

202. I don't see stripping as being much of a vice.

Prostitution is much more harmful.

[cgrindley]

207. It's still a vice though

The OP wanted to know how these lads would get their reputations back... my answer was that they might not have raped anyone, but they still didn't do anything to be proud of.

These kids weren't going to some swanky burlesque show. This wasn't some high end theoretical strip tease.

[pnwmom]

214. So the morality is dependent on how expensive the entertainment is?

Swanky or high end is okay, morally, but not the kind of exotic dancers these students legally hired?

I'm having trouble believing you're serious now.

[cgrindley]

227. Well, if you can't understand, there's no point arguing with you

You know, that "legal" argument of yours is a little troubling. It's not a good defence. Unless, of course, you're happy with pot smoking being illegal.

[pnwmom]

251. Pot smoking is another one of those things that's not a special issue

for me, despite my being a boomer.

[mondo joe]

263. It strikes me as a non-moral issue. But you're certainly free to be as puritanical

as you like. That's not illegal either.

[JVS]

163. OMG they might have even had IMPURE THOUGHTS!

Baby Jesus cries in the blessed mother's arms!

[cgrindley]

177. Dude, I'm a militant atheist

There are some human activities that although perfectly legal are nevertheless immoral or offensive. I'm not saying that I've never been to a strip bar or that sex disgusts me or anything like that, but you know, hiring strippers is not the most morally upright thing I can think of. Matter of fact, it's pretty sleazy.

[SayWhatYo]

226. What's a militant atheist?

Does that mean you blow shit up in the name of. <-- hah, get it?

[HEyHEY]

283. "pretty sleazy"?! Fuck man, you need to get out more

Fuck two hookers behind a dumpster is "Pretty sleazy." Hiring strippers is just being cheeky.

[JVS]

305. wow, that's some inspiring sleaziness

[ncliberal]

99. player press conference

Is no one watching the player's press conference? The players and the lawyers have repeatedly hit upon the fact that this happens to people all the time and most of those people don't have the resources to fight unjust accusations... that it often happens to poor people. They said they were lucky that their parents had the money to get good lawyers but that many people don't have that benefit. They all hope something good comes from this debacle. They hope it sheds some light on the injustices that occur on a daily basis and that there will be more checks and balances to protect people from overzealous police and prosecutors.

They have really been calling out the media as well. Joe Cheshire told the media they were supposed to be our protectors from injustice.

[Blackhatjack]

100. This is not the first time an innocent person has been prosecuted in NC (we had 6 death row cases)

The Alan Gell case pointed out that prosecutors withheld evidence, knew he was in jail miles away from the scene of the crime at the time it took place, and yet it took years and years to pry out the information from the prosecutors, and only after the News & Observer ran a series of investigative pieces on the injustice was this injustice addressed, and he was released.

Prosecutors who can advance their careers by obtaining convictions in 'high profile' cases certainly would not fall into the category of dispensers of 'impartial justice.'

Just wait, the prosecutorial abuses will come out .... we already know that Nifong asked a dna lab tech not to include evidence in his report that might be helpful to the defense to prove their innocence.

[pnwmom]

147. That's why it is such an outrage that the NC legislature is considering

a bill to roll back the protections provided by the open discovery law - the law that requires the prosecution to turn over all its evidence to the defense, and was enacted as a result of the Gell case.

Joe Cheshire called on all North Carolinians to fight that proposed legislation.

[alcibiades_mystery]

106. Have their reputastions really been harmed?

Is there anyone who believes that they are guilty of rape? really?

It seems to me that the only reputations they've developed here is that of the falsely accused victim.

Are you aware of some other reputation?

[renie408]

132. Look back on this thread! Check the other threads on this subject

There are many people here who have said, "Oh, they just got away with it."

Yes, their reputations have been damaged. They and their families have lived for over a year with this hanging over their heads.

[alcibiades_mystery]

137. Really?

I suspect they will all be wealthy businessmen inside of ten years, which is not bad for college students and recent graduates.

What happened to them was certainly wrong, but the whole "where do they get their reputations back" business seems overwrought, at best. Most people think they were wrongly accused, so I don't really see significant harm to their reputations.

[renie408]

157. Well, as long as you don't see the problem, I guess the fact that THEY say their

lives have been devestated doesn't mean a whole lot.

[alcibiades_mystery]

160. No, it doesn't

If their supposedly ruined reputations are not an impediment to their future success - given reasonable assumptions - then no.

I have no doubt that this has been a horrible experience, and that these young men have undergone a great deal of pain. I have no doubt that their families have been similarly affected, and that their social networks have been negatively affected. I also have no doubt that those networks can and will be repaired, and that they will not experience adverse long-term consequences on the basis of their "reputations." Nobody believes they did it, really. So, whatever they say now is to some extent irrelevant.

[onenote]

257. we're usually on the same page, but not this time

But to help me understand your position -- do you think that the concern being expressed about the harm suffered by the Rutgers basketball players as a result of Imus' comments also is "overwrought"?

[alcibiades_mystery]

259. Nice try

One issue at a time, onenote.

In any case, we're rarely "on the same page." I'm a Marxist. You're a yellow dog moderate. We're usually on vastly different pages, though critiques of liberalism from the right (you) and left (me) may seem "the same" if the nuance is ignored. This distinction should also tell you what I think about the vast differences in form and effect between these two issues that you seem intent on conflating.

[pnwmom]

180. Are you kidding? Based on the responses of many DU'ers alone,

it is clear that they will always be guilty in the eyes of many.

[alcibiades_mystery]

238. "Based on the responses of many DU'ers..."

Yeah, but for your reputation to be hurt, it has to be people who matter....


:rofl:

[pettypace]

114. what about the racial slurs

Imus is getting destroyed for his comments, while these boys used the N word in the faces of the girls.

Hypocrisy, I say!

[justjones]

129. Exactly.

Whether they did it or not, someone still yelled to one of the girls thanking her grandfather for picking the cotton that made his t-shirt. This, I recall, was overheard by a neighbor, and if they weren't guilty of rape (and I don't think they are completely innocent), I am sure something racial went on at that party. For that, they get no pass with me. I could care less about their so-called reputations.

[FredScuttle]

136. Thanks

these boys ain't golden

[pettypace]

138. And even if these 3 didn't use those words

I believe it was Al Sharpton who stated that you are judged by the company you keep.

BTW, leave it to foxnews.com to be the first outlet to publish the girl's name.

[LisaL]

245. And who did Sharpton keep company with?

[spoony]

302. I guess Sharpton figures Jesus to be quite sleazy then since

he engaged anyone and everyone. You'd think a pundit with so much exposure would be slightly smarter than to say such a dumb thing.

[Madspirit]

140. Bravo! n/t

[Marrah_G]

295. Right after the stripper threw some racial insults at them. It's on tape.

ANd it wasn't one of the accused. But that's okay right? Because honestly the only point here is to prove white male athletes are bad and deserve whatever they get just because they are white. But when someone makes judgements about a non- white female athletes.... well that is unacceptable.

I'm glad you are so "sure" you know what went on. The people in salem village were "sure" they were surrounded by witches too.

Congratulations on becoming what you claim to hate so much.

[supernova]

153. Thank you

:thumbsup:

[pnwmom]

194. Wrong. "These boys" were not accused of using racial slurs.

The accused were not connected with that at all, and thanks to the videotapes, it is known who made what comments.

And the second dancer also made it clear that the "cotton shirt" comment that was made by another student (not one of the accused) came only after SHE first mocked them by calling them "limp dick white boys."

[pettypace]

246. the two insults are not equal

the insult the girl threw out was juvenile at best, whilst the cotton shirt is very hard edged and on the nose, simply a cruel reference which has no comeback.

As for the lads, they will be acrue many times their legal fees from media outlets, foxnews, 60 minutes and perhaps books. They have everyone in the mainstream media and looks like majority of all people behind them, so this episode will not deter them from achieving success in life.

I am glad this is all over now and we can get back to finding those darn WMD's.

[pnwmom]

248. You've overlooked, again, the fact that NONE of the accused students

made that statement, or any other racial slur.

Should you be held responsible for any dumb thing your neighbor might say? Or team member?

[pettypace]

252. Please accept my apology

I made a mistake. Truce?

[pnwmom]

278. More than truce.

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Marrah_G]

296. Of course they aren't equal!!!

We all know white males cannot be insulted by racial comments. They cannot be the target of bigots. No matter if they say otherwise, they are bigots by birth and any claim otherwise is just ignorant denial.

:sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

115. Good to know that the election was not stolen in 2000. Thanks for enlightening me

after all, Gore and the Democrats never really did anything about it. No charges, no crime, right?

[Ignacio Upton]

156. Um, we have tons of evidence of stealing that election

Whereas there is NO evidence pointing to guilt for the players. THere is also the fact that Nifong withheld evidence, and that the accuser and her friend changed their stories. I was originally sympathetic to the accuser, but I don't give a shit anymore. She should get mental help, and Nifong should be disbarred. As for the boys' reputations...they will bounce back. Unlike OJ, there is NO evidence of guilt (OJ was still convicted in his civil trial, and only lost his criminal trial because of Mark Fuhrman and Marcia Clark.) They will still have people unfairly judging them, but I think they'll be doing alright with their careers in 5-10 years from now.

[ComerPerro]

159. no charges though. And in the case of the Duke thing, all I gotta say is

the guys accused will be just fine. Their families spent millions on the defense, but they had the money.

We will never know what really happened that night. All I know is, there are occasions when an accuser, especially if facing such scrutiny and hatred, has been either talked out of what they know happened, or threatened into changing stories.

[pnwmom]

197. We DO know what really happened that night. Nothing.

And for people like you to insist that we don't -- even after the AG's thorough dismembering of Nifong's case -- proves that these young men will never get their names cleared, in the eyes of many.

[FredScuttle]

162. Good to see someone will stick up for racists

Bet you thought Imus got a raw deal, eh?

[Ignacio Upton]

188. No

But those players WERE wrongly accused. Also, what proof do you have that they are personally racist? I know that someone at that house allegedly made a racist comment to the strippers, but we don't know who. They do fit the "jock" stereotype (at first glance) of guys that I've met who are personally assholes, but that's not a reason to destroy their lives.

[FredScuttle]

193. Of course, it was their nasty friend Dicky Don't who yelled racial slurs

They're all good boys who would have joined the Peace Corps, but for their lacrosse prowess. They just happened to be at a party where someone yelled at a black women that she should thank her grandfather for his cotton shirt.

Puhllllleeze.

[SayWhatYo]

234. Woooah wait a minute here. That logic is a bit flawed and let me explain why....

From a personal experience I can illustrate why I feel your statement is flawed. Back when I was in high school I went to a party with a friend of mine who was black. He was actually my only friend, but that's besides the point. The party was his at his cousins who lived in a different part of town, so I didn't know anyone. Me, being whiter than casper stood out since I was the only white boy there. I was just too easy a target, goofy looking skinny ass white boy is fun to make fun of. I make fun them too(I'm a fat goofy looking white boy now) Anyways, there were some racial slurs thrown out at me while this big huge guy was picking a fight with me(more like picking an ass kicking because there wouldn't have been much of a fight on my part). So are you saying that because some idiots at that party were using racial slurs, that it means that everyone there is also racist? Even my one and only friend?

That seems like a pretty ignorant belief.

[WinkyDink]

130. I have no idea what their names are. Does anyone else?

[kwassa]

148. What reputations did they have previously?

Party-hard rich jocks?

How will they ever get that reputation back? That's a tough mountain to climb.

[supernova]

152. *giggling inappropriately*

:D

edit: if anybody's interested. The house where the lacrosse team lived had something of a low-level Animal House rep (a few citations over the years for breaking the noice ordinance, but nothing really serious.)

[pnwmom]

183. The Coleman report, led by an African-American professor at Duke,

shows that they had a very good record of behavior and performance in their time at Duke.

All jocks at colleges everywhere get smeared by the actions of some.

[midnight]

158. Not only do we have people's charges played out via the

media, they are posted on a computer site called c-cap. It will take charges of the innocent and the court documents and air them on the computer. How do those people get their reputation's back. A very good question.

[Nikia]

190. Do accused rapists actually get bad reputations?

Of course child molestors and those who jump out of the bushes and rape "innocent" women get bad reputations.
Elite men who rape poor women, minority women, and especially sex workers don't get bad reputations whether they actually did it or not.
Men who not found guilty of rape get sympathy from other men. Even when they are found guilty, they often get sympathy from other men.
I don't know if the national media attention could hurt their chances for future employment in the near future, but I doubt it.
I'm sorry but I've seen this.

[pnwmom]

203. All you have to do is read posts on this thread alone to see

how this can hurt a man's reputation. Despite the very clear statement of innocence by the A.G., there are many here and elsewhere who will always consider these students to be guilty -- of "something."

By the way, Dan Evans had a job offer rescinded after he was falsely charged. Don't tell him that this hasn't affected him.

[Catherine Vincent]

211. How do they get their reputations back?

By hiring more strippers, of course. But this time, make sure they are caucasian.

[Colobo]

272. I feel sorry for them

I wish them the best.

[ComerPerro]

275. Gee, maybe we should hold a fundraiser for them.

They are gonna be just fine. They are rich, fratty athletes from the most widely recognized school in the South. They will be just fine.

[Blue_Tires]

277. their mommies and daddies can buy them back, i'm sure

while this was a major ordeal for those involved, i stop short of calling it a 'tragedy'...A tradedy would have been if the players were convicted and served 20 years only to be exonerated after numerous appeals...hell, these clowns didn't even go to trial

there are much, much bigger examples of distorted justice to get outraged over...just to echo the sentiment elsewhere in the thread, where does O.J. Simpson go to get his reputation back?? (just to use a high-profile example) He's been dealing with the shit for 12 years (with no sign of letting up), while the duke frat boys won't even be remembered six months from now

[Evilismdestroyer07]

298. Part of the guilty untill proven innocent croud

Of course they are men who play sports. How can they not be rapists? DUH... Some people have such obvious hidden stereotypes and agendas.

[Little Wing]

289. apostrophe abuse on a scale never before seen

:wow:

[cordelia106]

299. This discussion is...

This discussion is very interesting. I have weighted in with my opinion on the charges earlier, as a reply to FredScuttle's post.There are several things that have been said in several posts that I would
like to address.Firstly questioning the appropriateness of a school team hiring strippers is not puritanical.Next
why do so many people think it alright to refer to someone who goes to a good school as elitist? Or that
being in College puts you in "an Ivory Tower". Lastly being a stripper is not a pleasant job; several
women I went to college with worked as strippers to pay their way through school and even in the "nice" clubs it was difficult and degrading, it is one of those jobs taken out strong economic necessity, which does not make for much of a choice.

[Blackhatjack]

303. It is not popular with some posters here, but economic status shouldn't be a factor in justice....

It really does not matter what the economic standing is of any individual when it comes to the issue of justice.

We can agree or disagree about the effects of wealth on our society, but people of moderate or limited economic means should be outraged at the unjust charges against a fellow citizen who is wealthy.

If we condone the wrongful use of the criminal justice system simply because we do not like the individual (for some reason other than guilt), then we are setting up a system that will eventually be turned against us all by those in power.

There is no question that the wealthier you are affects the means and opportunity to access top legal talent. And that does have an effect on enforcing your rights. However, we can never condone anyone being wrongfully charged. It degrades the system, and it degrades each of us since the charges are brought in our name by the government.